A new war has broken out: Russia (again) merged

[Skybird]

Although it was glooming since long. This has the potential to become enduring, and costly.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-570834,00.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-570829,00.html

Russia cannot afford not to react, no matter what becomes of this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

[Happy Times]

Heavy fighting has started in Sout Ossetia with Russians involved and taking casualties, Abkhasia is about to join in the fighting, Putin has wowed to reply hard..

Heavy fighting in South Ossetia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm

Georgia offers rebels ceasefire
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm

Russia army unit sent to Abkhazia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7429354.stm

[Happy Times]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=140506

:rotfl:

Someone please merge these..

How is it possible that we post in the same time with almost the same thread title!?!:huh:

[Fincuan]

HALT! This the Subsim thread police! :cool:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=140506

[Skybird]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=140506

:rotfl:

Someone please merge these..

How is it possible that we post in the same time with almost the same thread title!?!:huh:
I was 10 minutes earlier! :D

[JALU3]

We'll see how hot this gets, and whether Russia will bow into this full fledge. But if we keep the news eye and its now live coverage on this . . . it will be a conflict between the backed seperatest and the georgian government. Time will tell.

[Skybird]

It's getting worse. Russian tank columns have entered the province, with more on their way, which technically equals an invasion (Ossetia by international law belongs to Geogia). Two russian fighterbombers are claimed to have been shot down, while a Georgian airbase was massively bombed. Military activity in the southern region of Russia is going high, Georgia already has ordered for general mobilisation. Massive destruction from villages and the centre of the provincial capital is reported.

[Tchocky]

Well, China is very annoyed that their headlines are being stolen.

[Oberon]

Ho boy, here we go...

Russia Today headlines "WAR IS ON" :S

[Konovalov]

Well, China is very annoyed that their headlines are being stolen.
Not to worry. I'm sure it won't be long before the first drug scandal headline will bring back the news focus upon China. ;)

[ktrboston]

That is all we need is another frakking war on this small planet!

[Oberon]

Hahaha

Now Russia Today is running an article on 'corruption in the Georgian government' :lol:

It's like reading the opening chapters of Red Storm Rising again... :lol:

[kranz]

now you see that Suvorov was right! First Georgia and the last one will be Uruguay. Urgent request for Mr Bush-nuke them out of this planet pls.

[Kapitan]

Tie them back up like in the warsaw pact days !

[Oberon]

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/42/elkin99.4/0_12c57_afb22e26_XL.jpg
Translation:
Day schedule:
3:00 - Attack.
6:00 - Blitzkrieg.
7:00 - Breakfast.
12:00 - Victory.
17:00 - Request for help.

Russian propaganda, but funny :lol:

[Happy Times]

"It's all very sad and alarming," Putin said earlier in the day. "And, of course, there will be a response."

"There are lots of volunteers being gathered in the region, and it's very hard to withhold them from taking part. A real war is going on," Putin said, according to his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.

Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia under a 1992 agreement by Russian, Georgian, and South Ossetian authorities to maintain what has been a fragile peace. The mixed peacekeeping force also includes Georgian and South Ossetian troops.

Saakashvili said the Russian invasion of South Ossetia was pre-planned.



"These troops that are in Georgia now -- they didn't come unexpectedly," the president told CNN. "They had been amassing at the border for the last few months. They claimed they were staging exercises there and as soon as a suitable pretext was found, they moved in."
Georgia, located on the Black Sea coast between Russia and Turkey, has been split by Russian-backed separatist movements in South Ossetia and another region, Abkhazia.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html

If they enter Georgia from Abkhasia or Ossetia the Georgians IMO have to be assisted by EU and US, arms and supplies is the minimum.

[Oberon]

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T145127Z_01_TBL26_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg

Frogfoot?

[Happy Times]

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T145127Z_01_TBL26_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg

Frogfoot?

Yep, in need of a SAM up its ass..

[Happy Times]

Georgian president speaks
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo


Fierce fighting in Georgia

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo

[Dowly]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:

[Happy Times]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:

Im starting to think what i should do.

[Oberon]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:

Not alot, so long as it stays in South Ossetia. Probably a few warnings, some talking at the UNSC, maybe a statement of condemnation.
If it moves outside of South Ossetia, then who knows?

[Oberon]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T141603Z_01_TBL25-_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg

[kranz]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:

remember Balkan war?What Blue Helmets did there?Passing ammo for Mladic and rest of those guys.

[Happy Times]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:

remember Balkan war?What Blue Helmets did there?Passing ammo for Mladic and rest of those guys.

I bet we could get a brigade of volunteer from Finland, Baltics and Poland in a week.:D

[Dowly]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...




Nah, Reuter's photo would be something like this:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/2008-08-08T141603Z_01_TBL25-_RTRIDS.jpg

:p

[Oberon]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...




Nah, Reuter's photo would be something like this:

[image snip]

:p

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Too true. Still, there's going to be a lot of heated words across the interwebs between those who support Russia and those who have bad memories of Russia. Militaryphotos is already pretty much on fire :rotfl: So I'll get in here before the moderators and say, easy does it chaps.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/images/crime_policeman.jpg

[nikimcbee]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:

Not alot, so long as it stays in South Ossetia. Probably a few warnings, some talking at the UNSC, maybe a statement of condemnation.
If it moves outside of South Ossetia, then who knows?

Some things never change.
http://ibiblio.org/eldritch/myl/hero.htm

[nikimcbee]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/images/crime_policeman.jpg

Jim buna is over there?

[Oberon]

Jim buna is over there?

NATO is getting ready to deploy him for peacekeeping as we speak :yep:

[Dowly]

Jim buna is over there?
NATO is getting ready to deploy him for peacekeeping as we speak :yep:

God help the Russians. :o

[nikimcbee]

Jim buna is over there?
NATO is getting ready to deploy him for peacekeeping as we speak :yep:

God help the Russians. :o

Smilie-faces for all:D :D :D :D :sunny: :()1:

[Happy Times]

Holbrooke blames Russia
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/08/sots.holbrooke.cnn

[Nokia]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T141603Z_01_TBL25-_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg

Nah, Sukhoi Su-24

[Happy Times]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T141603Z_01_TBL25-_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg

Nah, Sukhoi Su-24

They teach these in school in Finland.:know:

[Skybird]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:
It is not in a position to do anything. The real war behind this is not about separatism, but influence over ressources and strategic influence anyway.

The Wets will suffer from it's idiotic NATO-flirt with Geoprgia, and it will suffer from the example set by accepting Kosovo independence. If we say pro Georgia, then we line up with the alleged agressor and wil be asked why we refuse Ossetia what we allowed kosovo. If we support Ossetia, we will piss the Americans big time (they are pro Georgia) and will be asked why we have flirted with Georgia before.

The formidable conseqeunces of stratgeic dilletantism and too little foresight. NATO expanding to Georgia, or to the Ukraine for that reason - shove the very idea of this nobrainer!

This is almost a solid nice representative war (Stellvertreterkrieg) as we knew it from the cold war.

[Dowly]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T141603Z_01_TBL25-_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg
Nah, Sukhoi Su-24
They teach these in school in Finland.:know:

ROFL! :rotfl:

Sooo, HT... you wouldnt have few Suomi Kp's at hand? Jsut thinking we could grab a few cases of beer, our SMG's and head for Georgia? :p

[Oberon]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T141603Z_01_TBL25-_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg

Nah, Sukhoi Su-24

They teach these in school in Finland.:know:

This keeps up they might well open the old ROC posts in the UK again :lol:
Thanks for pointing it out though, the Russkies have so many types of plane I lose track sometimes, MiG-29s and Frogfoots fine but the rest :dead:

[Happy Times]

Another picture from the skies of South Ossetia (according to Reuters)

Looks like a MiG-31 to me...

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/imagerepository/RTRPICT/2008-08-08T141603Z_01_TBL25-_RTRIDSP_2_GEORGIA-OSSETIA_articleimage.jpg
Nah, Sukhoi Su-24
They teach these in school in Finland.:know:

ROFL! :rotfl:

Sooo, HT... you wouldnt have few Suomi Kp's at hand? Jsut thinking we could grab a few cases of beer, our SMG's and head for Georgia? :p

I actually have a Suomi Kp, not excatly legal..:roll: My vacation started so a trip to Georgia would work for me, i could direct some fire for them and drink beer.:cool:

[Steel_Tomb]

Oberon I though the same thing, I heard of this and thought of Red Storm Rising straight away lol.

To be honest, I think this has been planned for months. Troops massing along the Georgian boarder on "exercises", russian "peacekeeping" troops wandering around Ossetia. How convenient, not that they have been preparing anything at all. Serperatist forces bombarded Georgia with artillery, so they respond (and quite rightly too) so Russia starts rolling its "exercise" forces into Georgia. I'm sorry, but this is bull****... typical Russian policy of trying to gain something for their own good whilst trying to make the defenders look like the "aggressors". If Ossetia wants to be independent, fine... as long as they keep things clean. They don't want independence, they will just be sucked into the huge mass that is Russia. Makes me think of 1956, while the worlds eye was on Suez the Red Army steamrolled into Hungary and slaughtered an uprising, and then murdered hundreds of people who supported independence. Don't forget the shooting down of a Gorgian UAV by a MiG about two months ago.

[Happy Times]

Oberon I though the same thing, I heard of this and thought of Red Storm Rising straight away lol.

To be honest, I think this has been planned for months. Troops massing along the Georgian boarder on "exercises", russian "peacekeeping" troops wandering around Ossetia. How convenient, not that they have been preparing anything at all. Serperatist forces bombarded Georgia with artillery, so they respond (and quite rightly too) so Russia starts rolling its "exercise" forces into Georgia. I'm sorry, but this is bull****... typical Russian policy of trying to gain something for their own good whilst trying to make the defenders look like the "aggressors". If Ossetia wants to be independent, fine... as long as they keep things clean. They don't want independence, they will just be sucked into the huge mass that is Russia. Makes me think of 1956, while the worlds eye was on Suez the Red Army steamrolled into Hungary and slaughtered an uprising, and then murdered hundreds of people who supported independence. Don't forget the shooting down of a Gorgian UAV by a MiG about two months ago.

Georgias President compared it to Winter War.
In 1939 they staged a shelling of their own troops and blamed it on Finland and started the "liberation" of Finnish people..:damn:

[Oberon]

Well, the old propaganda machine certainly whirred into top gear quick enough, on both sides. Georgia claiming that Russian jets deliberately attacked hospitals. I suspect Baby-milk factories will be next :lol:

But seriously though, it is rather dodgy that this comes as it does right now, with the Olympics going on, and the US in the middle of an election. :hmm: Still, we'll probably never find out who fired the first shot, but Russia's intentions will be clear if this doesn't stop at the Georgia/South Ossetia border. If I see Russian tanks in Tbilisi, I'm building my fallout shelter... :yep:

[geetrue]

Google's front home page for news only cares about the credit rating of Russia and Georgia going down.

Then I found this hidden in the financial news section:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/08/georgia.russia2



The Georgian president, Mikhail Saakashvili, said the two countries were already effectively at war.
"Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory," he told CNN. "We are a freedom-loving nation that is right now under attack."
He called on the US to intervene, saying it was in Washington's interests to help his country.

[Happy Times]

The Interfax/KGB/FSB misinformation campaign is going well, many reports about how Georgia started this.:nope:

The FACT is that on thursday the "Ossetians" shelled Georgia and civilians were hit, the Georgians then responded. Then the Russians tanks were ready to move in as they had prepared to do. A Finnish OSCE ambassador to the area said the Georgians have been very flexsible and willing to negotiate while the Putin backed "Ossetians" have had no willingness to come in to table. Putins ventriloquist dummie Medvedevs speach was disgusting, referring to mass killings of civilians. Foreigh minister Lavrov even talked about ethnic cleansings by the Georgian troops.:roll:
This reads KGB/FSB all over it.

[Oberon]

Well, like I said, lets keep it civil in here and try to remain level-headed. :yep:

[geetrue]

Caption this picture of Bush and Putin meeting this morning at the Olympic's in China ... I can't tell what they are saying.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

[Oberon]

PUTIN: "We have war in South Ossetia"
BUSH: "Where?"

:lol: ;)

[UnderseaLcpl]

Funny thing, I was researching this war to learn a bit about it and I came across an odd, unrelated piece of information. Georgia is not only the name of a former Soviet republic, it is also a the name of a small U.S. state. Learn something new every day, huh;)

[Happy Times]

Caption this picture of Bush and Putin meeting this morning at the Olympic's in China ... I can't tell what they are saying.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

The most interesting is the guy on the right, anyone know who he is?
You cant look more KGB than that.:rotfl:
And now we know why Dimitri stayed in Moscow and Vladimir came to handle George.

[Oberon]

Caption this picture of Bush and Putin meeting this morning at the Olympic's in China ... I can't tell what they are saying.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

The most interesting is the guy on the right, anyone know who he is?
You cant look more KGB than that.:rotfl:

:hmm:

He should have gone to specsavers... :yep:

[Steel_Tomb]

I've drawn up a somewhat more detailed response, my initial post was a bit "all over the place" as I get a bit carried away about stuff like this... hopefully this is a bit better lol.

...


For months the Russian military has been staging "exercises" all across the Georgian boarder, with "peacekeepers" staged all across the Georgian/Ossitian boarder regions. Last night Separatist forces bombarded Georgia will artillery, killing civilians. The Georgian forces thus replied with a show of force (and quite rightly so if I may say!), at which point the Russian forces promptly launched a mass, coordinated invasion of Georgia. It is quite obviously a typical example of Russian planning.

If it was an "off the bat" thing in response to an unprovoked/unexpected show of force by Georgia, the initial response would be somewhat sluggish, perhaps chaotic as commanders in the field attempted to draw up an effective response. The fact that a coordinated assault by such a large force of combined ground and air power suggests that this has been in the planning for months. Remember that UAV shot down by the MiG? This has been brewing for months but we have been somewhat oblivious to it.

It bears striking similarities to to Cold War history. I'm sure you remember the Hungarian and Czech uprisings of 1956 and '68? Whilst the worlds eye was on Suez, the Red Army launched a brutal attack to reinstate total control in Hungary, followed by the mass murder and public execution of the men leading the uprising. The worlds eyes are currently fixated on China, and the opening ceremonies of the Olympic Games, thus giving Russia a good window of opportunity to annex the region.

There is also a vast "energy corridor" in Georgia, which completely by-passes Russia. Its quite obvious Russia has always despised this, as they are constantly grabbing every scrap of oil they can get, including the blackmail of Ukraine where they have previously cut off all gas and electricity supplies to keep them on side and weary of becoming more pro West. Its also no secret that Georgia was applying for NATO membership, and if I remember correctly approached by the USA to become part of its EU Missile Defense Shield, which Russia has always been very much against.

It serves Russia's personal ambitions to take control of Georgia. Not only would they gain access to substantial natural resources to boost its economy, but it would also eradicate a very Pro-Western regime in the middle of its sphere of influence. It will be interesting to see what the UN's response will be to this act of war, they said that the Coalitions invasion of Iraq was breaking international law. The usual hypocrisy of the UN will probably mean a verbal wrist slapping but nothing else in terms of an effective response. Russia holds Europe at ransom because of its energy needs, and I don't think that Mr Brown has the balls or the political will to make anything out of this issue. Its a sad fact that even with all our political "might" and military strength, we are powerless to stop Russia's aggressive expansion because of oil and gas.

[Type941]

This has turned from 'georgia, WTF you doin?' into 'Russia, you sent troops into another country, are you faking mad??!'. And what's worse, people are dying, and it's not gonna end very soon I'm afraid either. What is russia gonna do after they defeat georgian military in S.O.? Press on? Into Tbilisi? How far are they willing to go? Now they managed to slowly but surely turn the world against them EVEN MORE.

[Type941]

The Interfax/KGB/FSB misinformation campaign is going well, many reports about how Georgia started this.:nope:

The FACT is that on thursday the "Ossetians" shelled Georgia and civilians were hit, the Georgians then responded. Then the Russians tanks were ready to move in as they had prepared to do. A Finnish OSCE ambassador to the area said the Georgians have been very flexsible and willing to negotiate while the Putin backed "Ossetians" have had no willingness to come in to table. Putins ventriloquist dummie Medvedevs speach was disgusting, referring to mass killings of civilians. Foreigh minister Lavrov even talked about ethnic cleansings by the Georgian troops.:roll:
This reads KGB/FSB all over it.


Dude, have you noticed how long it took for mr. Medved to come out with some speech? Putin spoke immidiately in China.. 5 hours later Medvedev spoke in some briefing... Pale as hell. and he apparently was on some trip on a river way out from Moscow. So who was in Kremlin, lol?!! Damn, this don't look good.

[Oberon]

The Interfax/KGB/FSB misinformation campaign is going well, many reports about how Georgia started this.:nope:

The FACT is that on thursday the "Ossetians" shelled Georgia and civilians were hit, the Georgians then responded. Then the Russians tanks were ready to move in as they had prepared to do. A Finnish OSCE ambassador to the area said the Georgians have been very flexsible and willing to negotiate while the Putin backed "Ossetians" have had no willingness to come in to table. Putins ventriloquist dummie Medvedevs speach was disgusting, referring to mass killings of civilians. Foreigh minister Lavrov even talked about ethnic cleansings by the Georgian troops.:roll:
This reads KGB/FSB all over it.


Dude, have you noticed how long it took for mr. Medved to come out with some speech? Putin spoke immidiately in China.. 5 hours later Medvedev spoke in some briefing... Pale as hell. and he apparently was on some trip on a river way out from Moscow. So who was in Kremlin, lol?!! Damn, this don't look good.

Well, when you pull a string in Beijing it takes that long for it to react in Moscow ;) Putin needs to invest in Animatronics :yep:

[Konovalov]

I suspect Putin has poo poo all over his hands. Perfect opportunist timing from Russia possibly. Guess we will all have to wait to determine the full story and where to apportion blame. :hmm: If there is a war between Georgia and Russia then Georgia could probably only hold out for a days if that standing alone. It's no wonder they so desperately want to join NATO.

[Fish]

Hahaha

Now Russia Today is running an article on 'corruption in the Georgian government' :lol:

It's like reading the opening chapters of Red Storm Rising again... :lol:

The first victim of every war is truth.

[Tchocky]

Hahaha

Now Russia Today is running an article on 'corruption in the Georgian government' :lol:

It's like reading the opening chapters of Red Storm Rising again... :lol:
The first victim of every war is truth.
No it isn't.

[Skybird]

"It's all very sad and alarming," Putin said earlier in the day. "And, of course, there will be a response."

"There are lots of volunteers being gathered in the region, and it's very hard to withhold them from taking part. A real war is going on," Putin said, according to his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.

Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia under a 1992 agreement by Russian, Georgian, and South Ossetian authorities to maintain what has been a fragile peace. The mixed peacekeeping force also includes Georgian and South Ossetian troops.

Saakashvili said the Russian invasion of South Ossetia was pre-planned.



"These troops that are in Georgia now -- they didn't come unexpectedly," the president told CNN. "They had been amassing at the border for the last few months. They claimed they were staging exercises there and as soon as a suitable pretext was found, they moved in."
Georgia, located on the Black Sea coast between Russia and Turkey, has been split by Russian-backed separatist movements in South Ossetia and another region, Abkhazia.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html

If they enter Georgia from Abkhasia or Ossetia the Georgians IMO have to be assisted by EU and US, arms and supplies is the minimum.
Opening shots this time were fried from Georgia. That does not allow them to claim a case of self-defense. The EU should stay out of this. For America it is both an ideological and a strategic thing so arguments over their position are useless anyway. But no matter Washington's desires, at no costs NATO should consider this to be NATO's playground.

[kiwi_2005]

Caption this picture of Bush and Putin meeting this morning at the Olympic's in China ... I can't tell what they are saying.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

No I'M telling you Mr Bush if you try to eat my donut again i'll flatten you. :roll: :)

[Happy Times]

With Real Player you can watch the Security Council meeting, i recommend.

http://www.un.org/webcast/sc.html

[joegrundman]

[quote=geetrue]Caption this picture of Bush and Putin meeting this morning at the Olympic's in China ... I can't tell what they are saying.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

Mr Funny-shirt here tells me there's Russian tanks in Georgia! You get those tanks off US territory right now, or you are for it! I'm not kidding!

[Edited to incorporate August's fine witty caption below into one uber-caption]

[August]

Who is the guy in the funny shirt?


http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

[baggygreen]

Oh come on...anyone who thinks Georgia is really responsible IMO neeeds a kick up the rear.It simply doesnt serve their interests to start a fight at the moment! Russia however, master stroke. Attack when the world's eye is on the olympics, blame the defenders, accusing them of ethnic cleansing?? come on... they only a couple of days ago reaffirmed a committment to a ceasefire.I see this as a russian land grab. its a chance for putin to show the world what his spending can do. and the Russians just "happened" to have a sh!tload of tanks hanging around on the border, and just "happened" to have all sorts of air strikes ready to go... i call foul, russia needs a big kick up the rear for this.

[Brag]

The Georgian prez is a Dick Cheney and Big Oil stooge.

[Happy Times]

"It's all very sad and alarming," Putin said earlier in the day. "And, of course, there will be a response."

"There are lots of volunteers being gathered in the region, and it's very hard to withhold them from taking part. A real war is going on," Putin said, according to his spokesman, Dmitry Peskov.

Russian peacekeepers are in South Ossetia under a 1992 agreement by Russian, Georgian, and South Ossetian authorities to maintain what has been a fragile peace. The mixed peacekeeping force also includes Georgian and South Ossetian troops.

Saakashvili said the Russian invasion of South Ossetia was pre-planned.



"These troops that are in Georgia now -- they didn't come unexpectedly," the president told CNN. "They had been amassing at the border for the last few months. They claimed they were staging exercises there and as soon as a suitable pretext was found, they moved in."
Georgia, located on the Black Sea coast between Russia and Turkey, has been split by Russian-backed separatist movements in South Ossetia and another region, Abkhazia.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html

If they enter Georgia from Abkhasia or Ossetia the Georgians IMO have to be assisted by EU and US, arms and supplies is the minimum.
Opening shots this time were fried from Georgia. That does not allow them to claim a case of self-defense. The EU should stay out of this. For America it is both an ideological and a strategic thing so arguments over their position are useless anyway. But no matter Washington's desires, at no costs NATO should consider this to be NATO's playground.

Actually those shots were fired by the Russians, they are spinning the media.
Now they are bombing the Georgian capital, i wouldnt mind going there and shooting some invading bastard.

Fighting with Russia spreads to cities across Georgia

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html

[baggygreen]

Happy times, I've gotta ask, why are you so keen to take off to georgia to fight the russians??

[Happy Times]

Happy times, I've gotta ask, why are you so keen to take off to georgia to fight the russians??

They have issues and i have an issue with that.:yep:

edit. History also of course.
btw the winter war film is live again in you tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7957FFfGat0&feature=PlayList&p=9026D2BB5C15EE0D&index=0&playnext=1

[August]

Where's Charlie Wilson when you need him?

[OneToughHerring]

Oh well, hope it won't be a long drawn out war. The Caucasus and near by areas such as Iraq have seen their share of those.

[Onkel Neal]

Some truly funny and witty comments from this thread: (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080808091149AA3VGTk)


I live in georegia but i dont see rusia no where not even sound but they says theres tanks should i be worrie

i herd on the news that rusia has invaded but i dont see them no where wats going on

'Tain't the Rooshans, it's the Yankees come again! Heading for Atlanta with a big box of matches!

/Git yer gun, Uncle Jed! Jed! Je-e-e-e-d!

They just blew up the Omni in Atlanta. I hope you are not near there!

Relax. I'm in Michigan and we heard about it on the news. Many of us are on our way in a convoy of pick-up trucks to help! Stand-by and stay where you are until we get there!

edit: We are bringin' shot-guns and hound-dogs!


Russians are very stealthy creatures. Kind of like ninjas. They are probably hiding in your kitchen right now...give yourself up, they will be merciful.

We need more guys like these!

[Reece]

We need more guys like these!
:rotfl::rotfl:
Be careful what you wish for!;)

[I-25]

LOL this Thread keeps on getting better:rotfl:... Not the war tough...

[Type941]

Happy times, I've gotta ask, why are you so keen to take off to georgia to fight the russians??
Dude, any sane russian is probably ashamed of this and sees this as total agression by russia. i think it's crazy there is not more of outrage against russia and how fascist it has become. georgian president said something in the beginning of his addfes: WAKE UP. Indeed people, wake up at what is happening. This isn't Solzhenytsyn Russia you see, this is something entirely different, a KGB monster state with lots of money, with puppet predisident and a foreign policy that is agressive to everyone. Friends of Russia (real friends) are by now are Belarus, Iran and Venezuela and Cuba. You get the pattern?

all jokes about GA aside, I think you guys really should take this more seriously. First it's Georgia, then it's Baltic states where I live, then it's Poland and so goes on the history circle.

[Skybird]

Actually those shots were fired by the Russians, they are spinning the media.
Now they are bombing the Georgian capital, i wouldnt mind going there and shooting some invading bastard.

Fighting with Russia spreads to cities across Georgia

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html
Sources here say different. First shots fired at night when Georgian troops started to attack the local capital, killing Russian troops as well who obviously were caught by surprise by the surprise attack. That is how the story has been told over here, during yesterday. That is possibly also the reason why casualties amongst civilians are said to be so high: they did not see it coming, were not prepared and not hidden, but simply sleeping.

For this current outbreak of violence, you have to blame Georgia indeed. This does not mean Russia played it nice and fair in the 15 years before. Their passport coup was clever, but of obvious opportunism, and some say in violation of international laws. But I can't judge the latter.

[Steel_Tomb]

Skybird, I agree that they caught the civilians by surprise but I disagree that Georgia is to blame for all of this. If you look at the run up, I think its Russia's doing. military "exercises" all across the boarder? separatist forces taking pot shots at Georgia hoping for a response? Remember that there have been calls for a truce and negotiations from Georgia prior to this fighting, those calls went unanswered. Russia has been planning to take over Georgia from the beginning, not just for gaining territory but to get rid of a pro-west regime and to take control of the energy resources in the south. Why would Georgia want to pick a fight with russia now anyway? They know they cant win a war, they are trying to protect their own interests against an aggressive, expansionist super power on their doorstep. The Russian media spin is also working perfectly, making out the Georgians to be the nasty aggressive people who sparked this conflict. They even accused Georgia of "ethnic-cleansing" for **** sake, I mean come on! What kind of bull**** is that?! To think that Russia has no personal agenda to furfil in this war is very naieve!

[Skybird]

To think that Russia has no personal agenda to furfil in this war is very naieve!
Who said that? I did not, and I explicitly pointed out that Russia has it'S own nagenda here. But my sin is that I pointd out that Washington has an agenda as well, and humanitarian rights has little to do with it. It is about having a fixpoint of influence in the region, limiting Russia, and of course: energy, pipelines, ressources. It is about having a sting in their tail, and causing them irritation by a constant minor pain. It is about pushing them again st the wall even mkre, like Washington has continued to do so since the end of the cold war, trying to bring NATO the the bordercheckpoints of Russian nation. The history of this conflict is old, and there have been crimes against humanity happening in the past, commited by Georgians against the Ossetians. This is not just the past 15 years opf conflict, and in truth more than a dozen ethnicities play a role in writing the story of this conflict over the decades and centuries. Add to this the presence and influence of the Islamic-Christian confrontation.

It is the easy solution to blame it all on the Russians. The Russians tried influence the situation in their favour, with cheats and tricks and intimidation as well. But they are not responsible for this latest blaze. Georgia wanted to create facts on the ground to take back what has broken away, that was a gamble that they lost. And now they cry for help and complain to be the victim of an agression. Well, believing that is what I would say is naive.

Neither the EU nor NATO should consider the Kaukasus to be it'S playfield., It is a minefield, and we have little, if anything, to win there. That the EU was caught completely by surpise yesterday shows how wonderfully prepared for the reality in the Kaukasus we really are. That america heavily arms Georgia and give sit military support, does not not helpt to make the situation any less complicated. We messed up the Balkans, and we mess up in the Kaukasus as well, it seems. This turns to becoming a real "Stellvertreterkrieg" indeed. The real conflict on the strategic level is USA versus Russia. Just that the US has as much business in the Kaukasus as Russia would have in Mexiko.

[antikristuseke]

Bloody hell, i go out for a small drink (for two days:oops:) and Russia launches a war.

[kranz]

imo it wasn't a coincidence that it started the same day as the Olympics.While we are watching 8 men swimming in a pool innocent people are killed. And saying that the area is not NATO playground is a total crap. So whose playground is it ffs? Remember Chechen war? But who gives a ****. According to polish tv russina foreign minister said that their operations there are only to protect civilians. Yeah, right. Let's give bothe Georga country and state to those red bastards. Maybe Altona and Alexander Platz too, Mr Skybird

[Skybird]

The past of Poland regarding Russia, as well as your emotions carry you away. That way you do not decide by reason yourself, but get decided by your sentiments.

[AntEater]

I hope CCIP or some other Russian might have a word on this.
Sofar, this thread has been hijacked by the pathological anti-russian crowd.


What happened sofar (IMHO).
Yesterday morning, the georgian army made a classical, soviet-style frontal assault on Zinchvali, using at least serveral Grad rocket launchers, Su-25s armed with unguided rockets and most likely conventional artillery, followed by a combined mechanized infantry-armour assault, which apparently was successful, albeit with losses.
Russian peacekeepers were attacked on the ground by georgian peacekeepers during or before this attack, also their barracks were directly targeted.
Shortly afterward, a russian mechanized column, most likely parts of the 19th motor rifle division of the 58th Army out of Vladikavkaz crossed the border to south Ossetia and covered the distance quickly, engaging georgian forces around the afternoon in Zinchvali.
During the same time, the Russian air force, most likely units of the 4th air army began air strikes. In addition to close air support, the russians apparently struck the georgian air force, most likely putting it out of action.
Two russian jets are confirmed shot down, apparently a Su-25 and a Tu-22. The Backfire is interesting, since no Backfires are on the ORBAT of the 4th Air Army. That means strategic or naval bomber forces were allready involved, most likely in the air field attack. Russian TV showed a Su-25 going down in Flames, which apparently was Georgian. Further georgian planes were apparently destroyed on the ground.
During the night, Russian aircraft apparently attacked military targets all over Georgia, especially in the town of Gori, which apparently serves as a logistics hub for the Georgians. Here, collateral damage was caused and civilians were killed. Apparently the port of Poti was also hit, which would make sense since it is the base of the diminutive georgian navy, which has sofar blockaded the coast of Abkhazia.
This morning, russians claimed to have cleared Zinchvali of georgian forces, which the georgians first denied, then admitted they were "temporarily withdrawing". Russian paratroopers from all over Russia were mobilized and are underway to the war zone. The first units apparently are allready engaged.

Seems to me that the russian goals in the conflict are (sofar) quite limited on the ground. Apparently the 58th Army had orders to restore pre war battle lines mostly. On the other hand, it is hardly possible for that unit alone to archieve more. Georgia has 55.000 first line troops, of which I would asssume the major part is currently engaged in Ossetia. 58th army has one mot-rifle division and four infantry brigades, but those are mainly engaged in Chechnya.
So it would be logical the 19th Mot-Rifle is the main russian fighting force for now, reinforced by para battalions. That means on the ground, the forces are about equal in strenght, and one should not underestimate the georgian army. While its ORBAT looks quite soviet, this is modern soviet style equipment of mainly ukrainian manufacture. The training should be quite good as well, since they're trained by the US.
The russians of course should have total air supremacy as georgia has no fighters. Most likely the Russian air force will continue to do two things:
- close air support for troops in Ossetia
- massive strikes on military infrastructure in Georgia proper, most likely at night with Su-24s or strategic bombers

The big IF is Abkhazia. There are reports about fighting there, and if the Abkhazians open a second front, the whole thing could turn even nastier.
Apparently Abkhazian forces are on the move, occupying territory Georgia took in 2006.
Abkhaz forces does not necessarily mean "russian", as this small republic is armed to the teeth. It has 5000 regulars and claims to be able to mobilize 25.000 in a swiss-like militia system.
Hell, everybody is armed to the teeth there. Georgia apparently spent a whopping 70% of its budget on weapons since Sakashvili came to power, and has 22% of its GDP devoted to defense. Should be european record. For comparison, the US, Britain and such spend around 3% on defense.
The "militia system" is not something formal, the problem in this region is that while urban Georgians and caucasus russians are like you and me, many other peoples in this region are not.
Ossetians, Abkhazians, Swanetians, Chechens and whoever are simply warrior people. Everybody has at least an AK there. And for urban georgians, Sakashvili created a youth organisation in which young people are trained with weapons and in nationalist spirit.

[Jimbuna]

The whole situation is just one gigantic/huge mess,

Just what the people living in the area need right now....not :nope:

[STEED]

At last something worth watching in the news just a shame its for all the wrong reasons.

[Type941]

I hope CCIP or some other Russian might have a word on this.
Sofar, this thread has been hijacked by the pathological anti-russian crowd.


What happened sofar (IMHO).
Yesterday morning, the georgian army made a classical, soviet-style frontal assault on Zinchvali, using at least serveral Grad rocket launchers, Su-25s armed with unguided rockets and most likely conventional artillery, followed by a combined mechanized infantry-armour assault, which apparently was successful, albeit with losses.


I AM Russian, see my post above! I'm not anti Russian per say, but whatever the monster that is sitting in the government right now is not something I want at all. I think they killed all human freedoms, they got clever over time and now trying to use modern media for propaganda.

You may be right about poland - some past history clouds judgement. But hey, no smoke without fire. Russia has done this before, and while the west put it straight for 15 years, it is now back stronger then ever. All its history it just can't live peacefully with neighbours. My theory it's the nation itself that's to blame - it is a crazy mix of Mongolian savagery with western like thinking. So when things break down, you get this - lying, decietful government that is ****less scared and insecure and uses all the force it has to crush a tiny republic while world watches a circus in another 'free' country - China.

I say this. If the west doesn't step up - Russia will reel in all soviet territories back slowly but surely. Ukraine or Baltics are next and I live in Baltics so to me this is serious issue.

yes, Georgia perhaps retaliated unwisely. But Russia then invaded it. Bombing its ports, etc. I think you guys really need to snap out of it and realize WHAT you all dealing with. West has only one weakness - money. As long as Russia lets them make money, it won't to ****.

I think however that this concept, that a nuclear power has a right to just bomb a small country for no reason is absolutely awful. USA needs to really step up - if it wants to dominate world scene in politics, it has to also bear the responsibility that comes with it. One of which is including keeping in check country leaders that don't have a clue what they are doing. USA NEEDS to do it because Russian people themselves have no way of controlling what Medevev, Putin or whoever is doing while in office. NO CONTROL whatsover. If thsi don't scare you - only a real war at your doorstep will and the way Russian foreign policy is - it might happen.

I say let the outcry get stronger and shame Russia into withdrawal and make this an issue. Postone the stupid games as well, I don't care if the overpaid primadonnas will wait for 30 days. This is more important. Much more.

[Type941]

on a side note. Who is giving orders in Rusia? IS this putin's real face? Is he doing what he always wanted to do while covering himself with a puppet president? Is this the last conflict for Medvedev after which if this fails, he will resign and let Putin back in? Curiouser and curioser.:shifty::hmm:

[Skybird]

An insightful overview over the messy situation and the past years, with which I agree.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,druck-571038,00.html

To get a one-tour-introduction into the complex geostrategic jumble of that whole region I recommend one of the older classical books by Peter Scholl-Latour, "The battflefield of the future. Between Kaukasus and Pamir", which unfortunately is available in German only. Although over ten years old, it still proves to be true and illustrates the immense foresight of the author. Conclusion: Russia is loosing to ideological and demographical pressure from Islam and China, plus is faced with immense arrogance by NATO and pressure by NATO moving east in open violation of assurances and promises made earlier.

The Georgians tried to make use of the opportunity of Olympia and create facts. It seems they got their fingers burned. The Ossetians since long are closer mto Russia, than nto the Georgians. Maybe one should have taken that intzo account before after the fall of the USSR one decided to make the same mistakes like Stalin and Tito and separate ethnicities into groups that in fact are just one group - all for the sake of forming one united greater Georgia pressing some ethnicities under its umbrella while forcing others out. Me thinks the Georgians - and their current overcharged "president" - have not spend the time on learning lessons from the past that they better should have learned indeed. The crisis of the past 15 years very much is a consequence from that failure.

[AntEater]

Type941
Lol, I thought germans were the only people capable of self-racism.
:rotfl:
Problem is, as Henry Kissinger said with respect to the Falklands "a great power can only be pushed so far".
Russia has retreated so many times, right or wrong, this was the line they were not prepared to cross.
A simple truth: If you want to be part of the west, you don't use artillery rockets against towns on the opening day of the Olympics.
No matter how evil the russians are, the georgians started this one.
I suppose the US was not informed beforehand, which might explain the attack date.
The attack was a gambit by Sakashvili, trying to create a fait accompli with a massive strike before anyone could react.
Problem was, the gambit backfired sofar. It wouldnt surprise me if the Russians knew what was coming beforehand and let him run into an open knife.

[Type941]

Type941
Lol, I thought germans were the only people capable of self-racism.
:rotfl:
Problem is, as Henry Kissinger said with respect to the Falklands "a great power can only be pushed so far".
Russia has retreated so many times, right or wrong, this was the line they were not prepared to cross.
A simple truth: If you want to be part of the west, you don't use artillery rockets against towns on the opening day of the Olympics.
No matter how evil the russians are, the georgians started this one.
I suppose the US was not informed beforehand, which might explain the attack date.
The attack was a gambit by Sakashvili, trying to create a fait accompli with a massive strike before anyone could react.
Problem was, the gambit backfired sofar. It wouldnt surprise me if the Russians knew what was coming beforehand and let him run into an open knife.

Well, I only speak for myself. It's my opinion. I also have a very good friend from Georgia who lives in Moscow and how let's say talks to parliament people there and knows a thing or two. And according to him, there will never ever be peace until those two places (Abkhazia and Osetia) are rid of russian influence and are back in Georgia. Georgia remember controls part of S Osetia anyway, it's just there are few places which are under control of separatists ONLY because there are russian peace keepers there. But in reality it's just an enclave of money laundring, drugs, etc. It's not about any ethnicity. Simply Russia likes to keep these things there, the military people are there not to keep peace but to keep Georgian's out.

The bit that's worrying is that there is talk of all this Great Power. Russia is not a great power. It has no guts to stand up to USA about anything. So what power are we talking about? China can stand up to US I think, but Russia can't. Russia has no leverage over US in anything. Or over China actually. So all these pretentioins on great power status are just in the minds of soviet union mentality people in power. And this mentality will go away only after that generation of gray KGB men passes away.

Back to Georgia starting it - Russia has started this by first arming the rebels and then giving them the go ahead to keep shelling Georgian units on the border. So sooner or later he retaliated and Russia just was looking for it.

The Russian Passport thing was of course a very obvious bull**** move to get a reason to move in military. It has been discussed openly for years that Russia will use this as a reason to go into war. And it has. I think this should open up the eyes of Europe and how vulnerable it is from Russia and how it needs the alliance with USA.

Anything that's good that can come out of this is perhaps the unification of West and focusing attention on where problems lie, and losing the bilateral firendliness with Russia and taking a united stance against it on important issues where it is overstapping its authority.

Remember also that Tbilicy pipeline is the only real alternative to get Caspian oil into Europe and TUrkey. Russia stands to gain by controlling it and EU loses all its security from losing it.

There is a lot at stake. Georgia is like a little pawn in the game now, but it's like the last pawn thats left on the board and if you lose that- you won't have a chance against the russians.

Poland is calling for EU meeting, all of Eastern Europe is gonna get in arms of course (not literally..) but I'm afraid Germany's cozy relationship with Russia will offset all the efforts to put it back into its place. I can only hope that United Kingdom, having seen what Russia can do in its own capital by murdering its citizen will stop being a p8ssy and will step up as well.


PS. and let's not forget Medvedev. From what I hear, the guy is very very authoritative. Much worse then Putin. And he will be a handful for the West to deal with. We dunno who is in power in Russia but if its Medvedev, over time it does not bode well for anybody. Im telling you guys, this is serious, and it can get all much worse much sooner than you can imagine. If USA gets involved and with its commitments it just might have no choice otherwise IT loses credebility from all the countries it tries to push democracy into - well, guess what, we are gonna have a Russia USA stand off. Think about it at least. It pains me to say but today's russia is a country that's too dangerously close in processes to 1930s Germany.


PPS. Yeah, I also wonder what CCIP and other russian members think, but I bet that those who are russians living abroad are more likely to share my concern for this than those living in Russia and still being bombarded by the local trashy govt media.

[AntEater]

the passport thing was of course to give the russians leverage on Georgia, but why did people accept these passports?
Simply put, without russian passport, Abkhazians and Ossetians are prisoners in the own enclaves. They have no georgian passports, they cannot travel abroad.
So having a russian one is certainly a huge advantage for somebody in Ossetia.
Secondly, I don't think russia is as weak as you think.
It was during Yeltsin's times, during the Kosovo war, but it is slowly resurging.
They have a huge leverage on Europe with Gas and Oil. Even if the EU gets alternative sources for gas, these are about as unreliable (muslim countries!) and the russians have the advantage of being extremely cheap in transportation due to overland pipelines. Any gas from Egypt or Algeria will have to be shipped by LNG tankers, and these countries are always on the fringe of turning jihad. And I don't even want to think of the combination of LNG tankers and muslim terrorists...
Most people think about Russia in terms of Gas and Oil only, but at work I've seen the amount of business german firms are doing there right now and it is second only to China.
And we're talking industry construction here, whole construction plants. Something like that hasn't happened in Russia since the last five year plan or so. No matter what you think of the russian government, economically Russia is on a sound path.
"World power" is relative. I would rate Russia higher than the UK on that scale, but of course russia is not as powerful as China or the US.

Also militarily. In the first chechen war, russia's military was a joke, but that apparently changed.
Keep in mind that even if the number of russian troops comitted is fairly small, a normal european country would be hard pressed to mobilize that amount of armour.
The german Bundeswehr could hardly mobilize heavy mechanized forces of that size with only one active Panzer division. The brits are similar, dunno about the french.
Strangely, Russia today has one of the most cost-effective military forces worldwide if you look at force levels and spending. Russia spends about as much on defense as Germany and has all the real boy's toys like SSBNs and strategic bombers.
Russia is coming back on the world stage, like it or not.
Even if you dislike the current government, a disliked or hated government that is taken seriously by the west is better than a pitied but liked Yeltsin treated like a demented country cousin.

[Type941]

i think in response all i can say that it's no use to be 'amazed' by russia's military might, its' 'real toyos' like SSBNs and have a clear mind about right and wrong. What russia is doing is wrong. And the only reason that Germany, EU and others are closing eyes on it is because of MONEY. Lots of western companies are taking advantage of growing russian economy and so unwilling to jepardize that will not say a word about russia's human rights record. Same with China.

what will really happen? Here is my view.

I think realistically this war will last few more days, nothing will get resovled, Georgia will lose lots of infrastructure, will be forced to have ceasefire, russia will have its little war and a cap in the hat, and right to brag about it being a peacekeeper and looking after its compatriots and will use this as example to any other country that dares to defy it. EU, USA and others will have some angry statements but in General leave the georgians hanging and won't help. Germany will get to keep its pipeline projects with mr. Schroder in Gazprom board and Italy will keep its projects and so on and so forth. Russias policy is devide and conqure when it comes to dealing with EU and its effective. This order won't change until Russia attacks either Ukraine, or more likeely - Baltic States which are NATO members. This will test the whole point of NATO, and if NATO fails to protect its member under attack - back to Cold War we go, but this time West will have no ideological moral ground to beat Russia in anything and Westerm Europe will revert back to little enclave protected by USA like its been before 1990s.

Ultimately people in the west forgot what its like to have war, what its like to fight for your freedom because its all too cozy now and there will be every effort to avoid any kind of fighting with russian or whatever armies for some small countries. they are as far as it goes, are worth sacrifice to keep peace in the west a bit longer.
but why do we need to worry about this? Because that's russias goal. And if that's not WRONG, I don't know what is.

[Steel_Tomb]

I think Type941 has hit the nail on the head if I'm honest. We in Europe have gotten so used to an enduring peace and having the good life, we forget what life is like in the rest of the world where people may not be as fortunate as us. Russia has been slowly pushing the EU and the international community to see how far we will appease them for the sake of energy security before biting back. I just pray that the day doesn't come where Russia pushes the line too far, and we end up with a situation similar to 1914... where the actions of one lone assassin in Serbia sparks a war which will have unthinkable repercussions.

[Happy Times]

What part of the Russian provocation you dont people understand? This started when from Ossetia artillery shelled on thurday. Now by international law Ossetia and Abkhasia are part of Georgian territory, end of discussion! That Russia backs these tribalists with their own private armies, and that base their economy on smuggling, is clear intervention in the matters of a nother sovereign nation. The Ossetian puppet leader Eduard Kokoity has even stated that "the Georgian-Ossetian conflict was not an inter-ethnic, but clearly a political one caused by Georgia’s desire to impose on Ossetians the norms of Western democracy which could not be superior to the Caucasian traditional laws" . We have good info in Finland about the area as Finns have big role in the OSCE mission in Georgia. They have told that Georgians have been very keen on a peacefull settlement while the ossetians have not wanted talk for a time, even when Georgia offers broad autonomy to Ossetia. Georgia has genuinely co-operated with OSCE and EU to create a democratic society based on rule of law, this is more than can be said of Russia. And anything that happened in Eduard Shevardnadzes time in power of Georgia can hardly be blamed on the present goverment. Did anyone watch the UN security council meeting i posted? Do people understand how good KGB/FSB are at manipulating even Western media?

[AntEater]

You guys seriously want WW3, it seems. Then you can enjoy your freedom from Russia in a nuclear winter. Sorry, but in a nuclear age, the old WW2 aphorisms do not work anymore. If I have the choice between nuclear holocaust and a russian dominated baltic, I take the russian dominated baltic, thank you. It is scary how pathological hatred works, you should've thought the world moved away from that now. This baltic/polish/ukrainian thing with russians is almost as bad as the arabian attitude towards Israel.

[Dowly]

What part of the Russian provocation you dont people understand? This started when from Ossetia artillery shelled on thurday. Now by international law Ossetia and Abkhasia are part of Georgian territory, end of discussion! That Russia backs these tribalists with their own private armies, and that base their economy on smuggling, is clear intervention in the matters of a nother sovereign nation.

My thoughs exactly! :up:

[Dowly]

You guys seriously want WW3, it seems.

Umm... no. But should the western world just sit and watch how Georgia is attacked by Russia in cover of "helping fellow russians"? Like Happy Times said, SO is part of Georgia! No one forces the pro-Russian ppl to live there if they dont like it, move to Russia ffs! Russia has no business in Georgia.

[Happy Times]

You guys seriously want WW3, it seems.


So thats the ultimate reason you Germans seem willing to forget international law and sacrifice small nations.:doh:
All the small nations between Russia and your country have seen the total war, its qquite an accusation to make. But we should fight if Russia starts invading its neighbours, what is the option? Russia says it will protect it citizens were ever they may be, is Baltics the next target? Russia accused Finland this year for human rights violations for not granting official minority status to the small Russian minority that has only excisted less that 20 years!
But we know none of you would fight for us so we keep ourselves prepared.
And like Type941 said and i have said for years there are similarities in the rise of the Third Reich and modern Russia.

[Happy Times]

You guys seriously want WW3, it seems. Then you can enjoy your freedom from Russia in a nuclear winter. Sorry, but in a nuclear age, the old WW2 aphorisms do not work anymore. If I have the choice between nuclear holocaust and a russian dominated baltic, I take the russian dominated baltic, thank you. It is scary how pathological hatred works, you should've thought the world moved away from that now. This baltic/polish/ukrainian thing with russians is almost as bad as the arabian attitude towards Israel.

Are you serious!! Your selling us allready for you oil and gas! The Arab-Israeli comparison fits the otherway around! If that is a widepread attitude in Europe we should start building our own nukes right away..:roll:

[AntEater]

Actually, yes
WW2 aphorisms do not work anymore.
In WW2, the worst thing that could happen was that Hitler conquered the world.
Well, the world then was conquered, but still existing.
In the nuclear age, a WW2 sized confrontation could still mean the end of the world.
It seems, since the baltic republics and eastern Europe kind of missed the last 50 years, that this truth hasn't arrived there yet.
The US administration knows that truth, that's why its condemnations are weaker than those by Yeltsin over Kosovo. Great powers do not commit suicide for small allies.
And in regards to international law and the integrity of nations, the US pretty much squashed this principle in the last ten years. It does not exist anymore.
I suppose the best end of that confrontation could be something like "you stay out of Ossetia and we stay out of Estonia" compromise.
It is simply an attitude problem: You cannot endlessly provoke your neighbours, as current eastern european nations do. Hell Kaczisky managed to piss off even the germans!
Now the russians have to endure that continous bickering from around ten nations.
Russia's government is evil. Maybe, but isn't that up to the russian people?
To me, much of it is simply clear-cut idiot nationalism. If you are a young nation, you constantly have to remind yourself why you exist and that works best if you have an enemy.
Yeah, but of course russians are inferior to you etc etc....
Sorry, but the whole baltic are should get off its high horse and start to live with Russia.
Morally justified or not, the US cannot afford another 12 Israels, if you put yourself into that position.
When Germany was defeated, France made a step towards Germany and worked out a good relationship that overcame 400 years of more or less continued warfare.
I suppose the whole former soviet block missed out that chance for the sake of cheap nationalism.

[Oberon]

Let's not start a flame war between anti-Russians and non-anti-Russians, gentlemen, I read through enough crap over on Militaryphotos yesterday trying to sift out a bit of sense from it all. If you want pro-Russian statements, you should go and check that out. :damn:
So, let's just stick to the facts, whenever we get any. :damn:

[Happy Times]

Hitler and Stalin killed MILLIONS in genocides without nukes!
Maybe we all should just give in and join Russia and let them conduct their Russification without resistance, yeah right..:roll:

[Dowly]

Hitler and Stalin killed MILLIONS in genocides without nukes!
Maybe we all should just give in and join Russia and let them conduct their Russification without resistance, yeah right..:roll:

:rotfl:

Come get some!
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/FerretFightsBack.jpg

[AntEater]

Sticking to the facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_%282008%29)
A good summary of all that is known sofar.
What is not there is the apparent involvement of the Black Sea Fleet, reported on CNN
Maybe the Poti strike was a naval, not airborne attack

[Dowly]

Sticking to the facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_%282008%29)
A good summary of all that is known sofar.
What is not there is the apparent involvement of the Black Sea Fleet, reported on CNN
Maybe the Poti strike was a naval, not airborne attack

You know, I could go to Wikipedia and write that it was Nigeria that started the war. :roll:

The media isnt sure who started it, we get mixed reports depending of the source. All we can do is speculate and guess.

[OneToughHerring]

Bloody hell, i go out for a small drink (for two days:oops:) and Russia launches a war.
Hmm, coincidence? I don't think so. Sure they weren't scoping you out, ready to lauch the attack when you're indisposed? ;)

edit. Don't mean to make fun of a serious subject.

[Happy Times]

Swedish Foerign Minister Carl Bildt on Georgia-Russia War

Statement of Carl Bildt, Minister for Foreign Affairs of Sweden

Russia's justification of its offensive deeply ominous

"The Russian offensive against and in Georgia is an act of aggression that is incompatible with international law and fundamental principles of security and cooperation in Europe," says Minister for Foreign Affairs Carl Bildt in a statement on Saturday.

"We - and Russia - will have to live with the consequences of Russia's use of force for a long time to come.

"The justification given by Russia is that it is protecting Russian nationals, but the obligation to protect people - irrespective of their nationality - lies with the state in which those individuals are located. No state has a right to intervene militarily in the territory of another state simply because there are individuals there with a passport issued by that state or who are nationals of that state.

"Attempts to apply such a doctrine have plunged Europe into war in the past - and that is why it is so important that this doctrine is emphatically dismissed. The same doctrine can be equally dangerous in other situations.

"We did not accept military intervention by Milosevic's Serbia in other former Yugoslav states on the grounds of protecting Serbian passport holders. And we have reason to remember how Hitler used this very doctrine little more than half a century ago to undermine and attack substantial parts of central Europe.

"It is important now to demand an immediate end to the bombing raids, immediate withdrawal of the Russian troops that have entered Georgia and the establishment of political contacts to bring about a peaceful solution. As chair of the OSCE, Finland has a particularly important role to play."

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5571&Itemid=65

[Happy Times]

Joint statement on Georgia-Russia War by Presidents of Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.

We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia.

Following the unilateral military actions of the Russian military forces, we will use all means available to us as Presidents to ensure that aggression against a small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers. To this end we intend to urge our governments to take the following positions in discussions and to raise these concerns in the European Union and the North Atlantic Council:
Can the current Russian authorities be called adequate strategic partners of the EU;
Can the family of European democratic countries pursue a mutually beneficial dialogue with a country that uses heavy military armour against an independent country;
It is pointlessness to continue a “visa facilitation” program with a country that does not meet even the minimal requirements set by the EU and which uses visa facilitation to issue Russian Federation passports to foreigners and then abuses this EU given privilege to claim intervention rights such as "we are protecting Russian citizens" in South Ossetia.
The actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia should influence the talks with the Russian Federation, including negotiations on the new Partnership and Cooperation Agreement.

We underline the obvious bankruptcy of Russian “peacekeeping operations” in its immediate neighbourhood. The Russian Federation has overstepped a red-line in keeping the peace and stability in the conflict zone and in protecting Russian citizens outside its own borders.

The EU and NATO must take the initiative and stand-up against the spread of imperialist and revisionist policy in the East of Europe. New international peacekeeping forces should be created as the current setting proved to be ineffective.

We regret that not granting of the NATO’s Membership Action Plan (MAP) to Georgia was seen as a green light for agression in the region.

We believe that the EU and NATO as the key organizations for European and Transatlantic stability and security should play a leading and crucial role in securing freedom, security and prosperity of countries not only in the EU but also in the neighboring European area.

It a litmus-test for the credibility of the EU and NATO to solve the conflict in its immediate neighborhood and to prove for all EU and NATO members, aspirant countries and democratic partners that it is worth being members and partners of these organizations.

This Declaration is open for the accession by the leaders of other democratic countries.

President of the Republic of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves
President of the Republic of Latvia Valdis Zatlers
President of the Republic of Lithuania Valdas Adamkus
President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczyński

http://georgiandaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5572&Itemid=65

[Fish]

PUTIN: "We have war in South Ossetia"
BUSH: "Where?"

:lol: ;)

PUTIN: Georgië.
Bush: what the hell, Georgia! :shifty:

[Fish]

http://nl.youtube.com/results?search_query=ossetia&search_type=&aq=-1&oq=

[Fish]

Hahaha

Now Russia Today is running an article on 'corruption in the Georgian government' :lol:

It's like reading the opening chapters of Red Storm Rising again... :lol:
The first victim of every war is truth.
No it isn't.

Please explain?

[AntEater]

President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczyński

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

No news regarding operations, just diplomatic declarations and new spin on old news.
Either backround negotiations are underway or this is the calm before the storm...

[Type941]

You guys seriously want WW3, it seems. Then you can enjoy your freedom from Russia in a nuclear winter. Sorry, but in a nuclear age, the old WW2 aphorisms do not work anymore. If I have the choice between nuclear holocaust and a russian dominated baltic, I take the russian dominated baltic, thank you. It is scary how pathological hatred works, you should've thought the world moved away from that now. This baltic/polish/ukrainian thing with russians is almost as bad as the arabian attitude towards Israel.
I'll take a Russian dominated Germany over Russian dominated Baltic. I hope that works for YOU my friend. :damn: :nope:

This was such a weak argument Ant. Really. BUT it makes sense. Germany does have the coziest relationship with Russia. Russia is using that to make sure EU can not have any kind of common policy because it's willing to give a lot to Germany and give little elsewhere. It's totally divide and conquer and it totally works.

You know guys, noone wants to live in nuclear holocost. Not Russia as well, so remember that when you are scared shätless to stand up for what's right!

Happy Times, you are spot on.

the declaration by Sweden is very good as well, good on them. I hope Finland and Norway say a thing or two and over next week EU will toughen up the language also. This is just not on. WHo cares how its started, now Russia is effectively bombing a sovereign nation that has only tried to respond to provocations, caused by people armed by Russia!!! Faaack, think about it. This is not Kosovo, this is not Iraq. Damn it people. If you let the bully bully you, it will never stop. Haven't ya all been to highschool`?!!

[Jimbuna]

Hitler and Stalin killed MILLIONS in genocides without nukes!
Maybe we all should just give in and join Russia and let them conduct their Russification without resistance, yeah right..:roll:

:rotfl:

Come get some!
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/FerretFightsBack.jpg

LMAO :rotfl:

[kranz]

The past of Poland regarding Russia, as well as your emotions carry you away. That way you do not decide by reason yourself, but get decided by your sentiments.

I would call it history instead of sentiments. If you don't see any relation between what is happening in Georgia now and what happened 60 years ago in Europe it is sad. The outcome of this "battle" is clear. They say that communism has ended. But the people haven't changed. They still treat the east-block countries like their old satellites. We cannot have anti-rocket shield coz it "destroys the stability of the region". Even on Kremlin they know it is bullshi-t. This system, who some say has ended has killed millions of people and at least 2k starting from yesterday.

[AntEater]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....

[Diopos]

... I'm simply fed up with that eastern european fringe nationalism. Maybe we Germans are not patriotic enough, but Poles, Balts and Georgians are really hyperventilating a bit in that direction. History is nice, but some time you have to stop. The french and brits did this in the 1900s, the germans and french in the 1950s, so why not Poles and Russians?

Because it doesn't look good in an east european election campaign, maybe?

Anyway US is the best
EU is here for paying the bills and all the rest

It wouldn't harm Polish Pride or Baltic Heritage to give the EU and it's members the sense that we are all a member of something more than a monetary union...
Of course I may be asking too much..:hmm:

Is there a reverse "iron curtain" lifted?:damn:

[Happy Times]

Are you people aware that this "South Ossetian" separatist goverment not willing for a ceaserfire is composed of mostly ethnic Russians? That they are mostly officers of the Russian Army and the FSB? Their "defence minister" is a general of Russian Army, "interior minister" colonel of FSB and commanded the FSB Alpha unit in Beslan, their "intelligence chief" is a colonel and veteran of KGB/FSB since invasion of Afganistan etc..
:doh:

[mapuc]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:

Nothing, absolutly nothing, except lots of talking and hope they will have stop fightning, when the west understand that this talking is waist of time(takes from 1 month to appr. 10 years)

Markus

[Dowly]

I am REALLY interested to see what the west will do about this. :yep:
Nothing, absolutly nothing, except lots of talking and hope they will have stop fightning, when the west understand that this talking is waist of time(takes from 1 month to appr. 10 years)

Markus

So true. ;)

[nikimcbee]

Who is the guy in the funny shirt?


http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

I think it's Bill Gates.

[nikimcbee]

This region as given Russia problems ever since they conquered it. If I recall, Georgia is a Christian region, as opposed to Chechnya which has a sizable Islamic population.

[Happy Times]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....

Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

[nikimcbee]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....

Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification


A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?

[Dowly]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....
Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?

Simple answer: Sisu. :up:

[Happy Times]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....

Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification


A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?

Well as soon as they started it we shot the Russian governor-general i Finland, then we shipped weapons from Japan who where happy to help as the Russo-Japanese War was going on, though that plan failed. Next we sent volunteers in Germany for military training 1914 and 1918 we started shooting at them, continued shooting 1939-1944.
Its the only thing we have found has an effect.:p

edit. Ofcourse before this almost 1000 years of fighting of and on, but thats the "resent" history..

[nikimcbee]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....
Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?

Simple answer: Sisu. :up:

I was going to guess perkele

[Dowly]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....
Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?
Simple answer: Sisu. :up:
I was going to guess perkele

Lol, that too, but mainly 'Sisu' which pretty much is stubborness, patriotism and courage in one word.

[nikimcbee]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....
Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?
Simple answer: Sisu. :up:
I was going to guess perkele

Lol, that too, but mainly 'Sisu' which pretty much is stubborness, patriotism and courage in one word.

Yeah, I looked it up. Now I know 2 Finnish words.:know:

[JHuschke]

Russia will win, hopefully U.S. won't get involved and try to please the world. We need a new president. Someday..I will work towards it..vote me then!

[Swedish_Submarine]

I think it is obvious that Russia is not in Georgia to help the "poor opressed minorities" and more interested in own interests in the region.....

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-571079,00.html

[1480]

Found this neat little op ed from the wall street journal, the link is below and it's only 8 paragraphs long:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121824156547126077.html?mod=rss_opinion_main


My little opinion of this whole fiasco: my causicoid cousins ain't too right in the head. They all need to be b*tch slapped back to their respective sides of the border. Is this a premeditated invasion of a sovereign nation? I'm not on an Oxford fellowship in international relations, but common sense says why did the ruskies have that much man power and equipment so close to border in the first place, unless they were ready to A. defend itself from invasion by Georgian forces or B. they planned on rolling in.

Looking at contention A, which has been posited by some, just does not make much sense. A smaller country, lesser military and with much more to lose attempts to start a war it knows it cannot win. They would win this year's Darwin award, hands down. I may think very little of mankind, but craziness of this magnitude, in this day and age, I find hard to swallow.

B. on the other hand, throw a team or two of spetznatz across the border, have them attack S. O. in the middle of the night to reduce casualties, make off like a bandit and now you have a reason to "liberate" the area. You blame the Georgians for the actual aggression, and now have a "reason" to come down and protect your peeps. Ivan looks good in the ever popular, court of opinion.

My question to one and all who believe that the Georgians started this whole mongolian cluster f%ck is, if the russians are just trying to defend itself and it's remote "citizens" why are they using strategic bombers to take out targets in Georgia that are no where near the area of conflict?

[baggygreen]

You won't get an answer that is satisfactory 1480.

To be honest, im surprised skybird and ant are taking the line they are, sky in particular. But, reading sky's links explains the POV that they're reading, and so what they believe.

I'm probably just more cynical, but like you said, why did the russians target strategic centres at the other end of the country, for example poti - S.O. is landlocked, the georgian navy isnt gonna do much good with it! The only reason that makes sense is that the russians are coming.

and why? because of that big ol' pipe line in the south.:yep:

As an aside, my fiancee asked me today after hearing it on the news, if i was going to have to go away. I laughed and told her not unless austraya moved to europe!:lol:

[1480]

baggygreen, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: that whole post was priceless. I'm glad there are still independent thinkers out there who do not kow tow to media slant. I thought we had it bad with CNN here in the States, but Speigel makes them look like the Far Right in comparison.


For all of the countries that could see through the morass of lies spewed by Russia and stood up to condemn their actions, I salute you! :up:

[Skybird]

Nice attempts, guys, but I don't take your baits. You wonder about the political splinters in the eyes of others - but you do not realise the ideological beams in your own. ;)

[heartc]

Nice attempts, guys, but I don't take your baits. You wonder about the political splinters in the eyes of others - but you do not realise the ideological beams in your own. ;)

You make me sick.

[1480]

SB, just curious but what is your thought about America invading Iraq and Afghanistan? Then I will be able to answer your assertion a little bit better.

[Happy Times]

The war that Russia wants

Moscow's blatant aggression in South Ossetia, aimed at locking Georgia out of Nato, should be resisted by the EU and US

For months, Moscow's successive provocations in Georgia have left observers suspecting that it was provoking a war in the Caucasus. It seems to have finally gotten what it wanted. The Kremlin's blatant aggression puts at stake not only the future of the most progressive state in the former Soviet Union, but the broader cause of European security.

In recent years, the Kremlin had escalated its interference in Georgia's territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia - bombing Georgian territory twice last year, illegally extending Russian citizenship to residents there, and appointing Russian security officers to their self-declared governments. South Ossetia's government in particular is practically under Moscow's direct control, with little if any ability to act independently.

But this flare-up is a direct consequence of Russia's deliberate and recent efforts to engage its small neighbor in military conflict. In April, Russia's President Vladimir Putin signed a decree effectively beginning to treat Abkhazia and South Ossetia as parts of the Russian Federation. This land grab was a particularly galling move because Russia is in charge of both the peacekeeping operations in the conflict zones, and the negotiations over their political resolution. The mediator had now clearly become a direct party to the conflict.

Moscow then sent paratroopers, heavy weapons and other troops into Abkhazia. Although these measures constituted military occupation of Georgian territory, Georgia failed to respond militarily. Instead, with European aspirations in mind, Georgian leaders listened to western calls for restraint, and put their faith in half-hearted western diplomatic initiatives.

Having failed to provoke Georgia to a war in Abkhazia, the Kremlin then tried in South Ossetia. Its proxies, the Ossetian separatist forces, escalated their attacks on Georgian posts and villages, making a response inevitable. Predictably, Moscow claimed a right to intervene, pouring Russian tanks into the area and bombing Georgian territory - including the country's capital. But why would Russia seek a war in the Caucasus, and why does it matter?

Georgia's position astride the western access route to the Caspian sea's energy reserves and Central Asia give it geopolitical significance. Moreover, Georgia represents exactly what Moscow does not want to see on its borders: a country both independent and increasingly democratic. Moscow instead seeks submission, preferably by authoritarian rulers that it can manipulate.

Yet the decisive factor was Georgia's efforts to gain Nato membership, a move in tune with the country's progress in consolidating democratic rule. Angela Merkel's statement that a country with unresolved conflicts can't enter Nato helped, too: it sent Russia a signal that it could prevent Georgia's Nato membership simply by stirring conflict.

Moscow's military adventure has far-reaching implications. To leaders in Ukraine and the Baltic states, it sends signals that it seeks to re-establish control in the former Soviet space. Probably correctly, leaders there assume they are next in line. More deeply, Russia's land grab threatens to return parts of Europe to the politics of territorial control of previous generations, negating the promise of integration and cooperation that the EU represents.

Russia's behaviour is incompatible with its aspirations to be a respected world power. Indeed, thoughtful people will find parallels between this and earlier incidents of Russian land seizures when it thought people were looking elsewhere. – the Baltic crisis of 1939, Finland, and post-second world war Iran come to mind. With most western leaders at the Olympics or on holiday, Moscow's efforts to establish a fait accompli in the Caucasus cannot be allowed to stand.

So far, the West's reaction has been inadequate. Rather than standing up for their own principles, western leaders think they can improve Russia's behaviour by appeasement, fearful of threatening relations with an undeniably powerful Russia. But by doing so, western leaders have unwittingly encouraged the most irresponsible elements in Moscow, whetting the hardliners' imperial appetites by not attaching any costs to their excesses. That in turn inexorably leads to a worsening of Russia's relations with the West.

Paradoxically, standing up to Moscow is not only the right thing to do in this crisis, but the best way to improve relations with Russia in the long term. For only a Russia that abandons its imperial agenda and respects its neighbors, irrespective of size, can be a true partner for the west.

It is now important for western leaders to realise that their silence so far has only encouraged Moscow's aggressive behaviour, and that they must now stand in solidarity with Georgia – in deeds, not only in words. Whether they do so will determine the future not only of the Caucasus, but also for Europe's security.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/08/georgia.nato

[darius359au]

Interesting read

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/08/10/dl1001.xml

@skybird , It's nice to see that the spirit of appeasement is alive and well

[1480]

@darius, nice catch. I read a reader comment to the article posted by Happy Times who stated that NATO would already be at war w/Russia had Georgia been admitted. I find that to be utter nonsense. Russia would have never pulled this crap, if they knew NATO would protect Georgia. It's a land grab of historical proportions that should sicken and scare everyone in Europe. But, comrade Putin is a nice guy, he'd never do anything like that... enjoy biting your pillows.

[nikimcbee]

The fun really begins when Russia moves to re-unify Ukraine.:dead:

[1480]

The fun really begins when Russia moves to re-unify Ukraine.:dead:

My grandparents will be turning in their graves.... I can't believe I'm saying this but Al-Jazere (like I care if I misspelled that one) is reporting that those ever righteous ruskies are attempting to call attention to the "ethnic cleansing" of South Ossetia by lobbing bombs upon the capitol of Georgia, TBLISI. As best as I can figure out, these two areas are no where near each other.... can you say invasion!

CNN has it now:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html?section=cnn_latest

[OneToughHerring]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....
Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?
Simple answer: Sisu. :up:
I was going to guess perkele
Lol, that too, but mainly 'Sisu' which pretty much is stubborness, patriotism and courage in one word.
Yeah, I looked it up. Now I know 2 Finnish words.:know:
I wish we only had similar type of 'Sisu' concerning the 'Swedification' of Finland. Mandatory Swedish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_Swedish) being a prime example of this.

There was Russification but in the end they gave us our indepence and let us keep it after WW 2. So it's not as simple as 'evil Russians'. Finland has always been a kind of a buffer between east and west, personally I wish Finland could be a country free from eastern _and_ western influence into it's political and military matters.

Also Saakashvili's comment about Finland was a bit stupid IMHO, Georgia 2008 and Finland 1939 (the Winter War) or even 1944 (the Continuation War) can't really be compared. I find that type of comparisons really irritating. Not saying anything about who is 100% guilty in this but Georgia is definitely at least partly guilty in this. So stop trying to 'smear' this thing on Finland, that's just low.

[darius359au]

The fun really begins when Russia moves to re-unify Ukraine.:dead:
Saw something in one of the statements from the Russian Foreign ministery ,saying something along the lines of Ukraine being involved by encouraging georgia to commit "Ethnic Cleansing" in south ossetia - got me to thinking who's next :nope:

Edit Found it http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/10/russia.georgia 10th paragraph down - looks like its the U.S's fault too because they helped train the Georgian military :nope:

[Happy Times]

Also, why're you always so hyped up with "russification"? And if I were you, I would rather be concerned to fight the Islamization of Finland, at least it looked that way when i was in Helsinki, it looked a bit like Mogadishu in parts....
Of course i am but we still have it better than you with half of Turkey living there.:p

It isnt russification in quotes only, it has a long history everywhere russian imperialims has touched. It is also very much a present day threat with many nationalities being persecuted in Russia today, many of them related to Finns and Estonians. Many peoples have practically ceased to excist because of russification, some cases are comparable to the holocaust and infact jews have been also targeted by it also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

A question for you Finns. How did you guys manage to keep Russian out of you language after being Russified for all those years?
Simple answer: Sisu. :up:
I was going to guess perkele
Lol, that too, but mainly 'Sisu' which pretty much is stubborness, patriotism and courage in one word.
Yeah, I looked it up. Now I know 2 Finnish words.:know:
I wish we only had similar type of 'Sisu' concerning the 'Swedification' of Finland. Mandatory Swedish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_Swedish) being a prime example of this.

There was Russification but in the end they gave us our indepence and let us keep it after WW 2. So it's not as simple as 'evil Russians'. Finland has always been a kind of a buffer between east and west, personally I wish Finland could be a country free from eastern _and_ western influence into it's political and military matters.

Also Saakashvili's comment about Finland was a bit stupid IMHO, Georgia 2008 and Finland 1939 (the Winter War) or even 1944 (the Continuation War) can't really be compared. I find that type of comparisons really irritating. Not saying anything about who is 100% guilty in this but Georgia is definitely at least partly guilty in this. So stop trying to 'smear' this thing on Finland, that's just low.

Have you been a sleep in the history lessons? Lenin recognized Finnish independence 1917 only because he didnt have a choice at the time, at the same time he sent Stalin to Helsinki to incourage a revolution that broke in -18. It was Bolsevik backed and armed annexation attempt! And they didnt give nothing in -44 and after, the invasion was stopped! The entire Finnish Army was intact at 500.000 men and better armed than ever with Salpa-line also behind them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salpa_Line
They were occupied in getting to Berlin, if they could they would have come to Helsinki also, that read in their battle plan. The entire cold war period they financed and promoted the Communists in Finland. The ultimate goal was annexation, these are all public knowledge confirmed in the archives in Moscow after the USSR break up.

What would you think if the Russians shelled in Finland for weeks with artillery and violated our airspace? We wouldnt have the right to shoot back? Does that make Georgians quilty? To what?

[Happy Times]

The fun really begins when Russia moves to re-unify Ukraine.:dead:
Saw something in one of the statements from the Russian Foreign ministery ,saying something along the lines of Ukraine being involved by encouraging georgia to commit "Ethnic Cleansing" in south ossetia - got me to thinking who's next :nope:

Edit Found it http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/10/russia.georgia 10th paragraph down - looks like its the U.S's fault too because they helped train the Georgian military :nope:

No suprise. :rotfl:
One time they accused Finns of having snipers in Chechnya, other time Finland, Estonia, Hungary, UK and US had a conspiracy to sieze Russian oil/gas by creating a Finno-Ugric state in Russia. They are paranoid and think everyone works like they do.

[ASWnut101]

Georgia pulls troops out of South Ossetia

- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4495637.ece


Georgia pulled its troops out of South Georgia this morning as Russian warplanes pounded a military airfield just eight miles from its capital Tbilisi.

...

There were also signs that Russia was preparing to open up a second front from Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia on the Black Sea coast. Georgia accused Moscow of sending troops by sea to Abkhazia and a United Nations peacekeeping official warned that separatist fighters were preparing an imminent attack on Georgia.


It was only a matter of time. Georgia simply dosen't have the military might to stand up to Russia. Now Abkhazia? Soon, in my opinion, we're probably going to see Russian tanks in Tblisi. After that, who's next?


P.S. It will be interesting to see what Europe (or at least the EU) does about the situation that's practically in their own back yard. Will their responses just be limited to peace talks, or will there be military intervention? :hmm: It's also nice to see the mixed European viewpoints on this issue here.

[Happy Times]

Georgia pulls troops out of South Ossetia

- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4495637.ece


Georgia pulled its troops out of South Georgia this morning as Russian warplanes pounded a military airfield just eight miles from its capital Tbilisi.

...

There were also signs that Russia was preparing to open up a second front from Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia on the Black Sea coast. Georgia accused Moscow of sending troops by sea to Abkhazia and a United Nations peacekeeping official warned that separatist fighters were preparing an imminent attack on Georgia.


It was only a matter of time. Georgia simply dosen't have the military might to stand up to Russia. Now Abkhazia? Soon, in my opinion, we're probably going to see Russian tanks in Tblisi. After that, who's next?


P.S. It will be interesting to see what Europe (or at least the EU) does about the situation that's practically in their own back yard. Will their responses just be limited to peace talks, or will there be military intervention? :hmm: It's also nice to see the mixed European viewpoints on this issue here.

EU is a lame duck, its in a crisis because the Lisbon Treaty fell apart. Russia has also for years cleverly played its divide and rule policy on EU. It has had very good success with countries like Germany and Italy, using its energy as a tool to have unilateral relations with member countries. There is no common foreign policy to speak of if something like this happens. Russia is an enigma to Western Europeans, they think or wish they can control/change it with appeasment or some kind of cultural influencing.
Its neigbours know better how the country's undertone has remained the same for centuries.

[darius359au]

Russia just happened to have 10000 troops sitting around ready to go :o , or are people supposed to believe that Russia can move those many troops and their equipment to south ossetia AND Abkahzia, fully fuelled and combat loaded, in less than 48 hours?

[ASWnut101]

EU is a lame duck, its in a crisis because the Lisbon Treaty fell apart. Russia has also for years cleverly played its divide and rule policy on EU. It has had very good success with countries like Germany and Italy, using its energy as a tool to have unilateral relations with member countries. There is no common foreign policy to speak of if something like this happens. Russia is an enigma to Western Europeans, they think or wish they can control/change it with appeasment or some kind of cultural influencing.

So you don't think there will be any sort of major response from...anyone? Just more appeasement talks? If that's the case, then, well, it seems like a sad day for Europe is looming on the horizon. We all know what appeasement brought the time it was tried some 60-75 years ago...


Its neigbours know better how the country's undertone has remained the same for centuries.

Yeah, I've noticed that from people in these countries (Poland and the Baltic states). Personally, I agree with them.



Also, what do you think Finland should do, if anything, seeing how you live there?

[Happy Times]

EU is a lame duck, its in a crisis because the Lisbon Treaty fell apart. Russia has also for years cleverly played its divide and rule policy on EU. It has had very good success with countries like Germany and Italy, using its energy as a tool to have unilateral relations with member countries. There is no common foreign policy to speak of if something like this happens. Russia is an enigma to Western Europeans, they think or wish they can control/change it with appeasment or some kind of cultural influencing.

So you don't think there will be any sort of major response from...anyone? Just more appeasement talks? If that's the case, then, well, it seems like a sad day for Europe is looming on the horizon. We all know what appeasement brought the time it was tried some 60-75 years ago...


Im not sure yet, UK isnt jumpy over Russia and France maybe will be firm on this. Everyone wants peace and a ceasefire but the Russians, they are clearly aiming for a fait accompli annexation of the areas. Im not sure they will invade whole of Georgia but they will try to brake it apart from Western connection and install some puppet regime.
This is another test to see how West reacts, im positive that their ultimate goal is to annex atleast Ukraine and Belorussia at some point. Following Russian media is a good way to keep up on their plans, they start "preparing" people well before.;)

Its neigbours know better how the country's undertone has remained the same for centuries.

Yeah, I've noticed that from people in these countries (Poland and the Baltic states). Personally, I agree with them.

Yeah, we are kinda cynical, but for a reason.



Also, what do you think Finland should do, if anything, seeing how you live there?

I expect a hard condemnation of Russia and join the Balts and Poland in halting EUs trade and visa negotions with Russia. If the invasion continues, then closing the Finnish border would hurt Russia badly, maybe kicking out the hundreds of intelligence agents here, i dont understand why they need more here than in London. We have also have lots of surplus weapons in the stocks that could be sent there. But thats just me, our president and PM are spineless.

[Steel_Tomb]

I doubt that there will be any military intervention but the EU's part, or even the US for that matter. The EU is still spineless after the collapse of the lisbon treaty and the US is in the midst of a presidential election. Neither sides want fighting, I think the best situation we can be looking for is a proxy war of such, with the EU and/or the US supplying arms to Georgia. However that prospect is looking more and more unlikely since the black sea fleet started their blockade of the Georgian coast. So the only way in will be through Turkey, which is always a bit of a political hotcake for the yanks. However, the EU can't really afford for Georgia to fall into Russian hands, primarily because if we loose the pipeline to the reds, we loose our energy security. In this day and age where energy is a big issue especially with the price of oil so volatile at the moment. I doubt the EU nations will want this to happen.

[OneToughHerring]

Have you been a sleep in the history lessons? Lenin recognized Finnish independence 1917 only because he didnt have a choice at the time, at the same time he sent Stalin to Helsinki to incourage a revolution that broke in -18.
Finland could've declared indepence on it's own but Russia could've made the situation very difficult by not accepting it. As for the subsequent political wrangling that led to the civil war is a whole another issue entirely with a lot of bad blood still circulating. For example have the deaths of the "reds" ever been fully accounted? They are continuing to find more and more of the "red" bodies killed, usually from summary executions by the "whites", during the civil war, is that the type of foundation our wonderful, civilised western nation is built on?

It was Bolsevik backed and armed annexation attempt! And they didnt give nothing in -44 and after, the invasion was stopped!
What invasion? We were in cahoots with the nazis well before WW 2 and the Russians could've taken over Finland too. They didn't and subsequently the Finns have been talking about a "defensive victory". Load of crap if you ask me or the Paris peace treaties that are still valid today. Are you saying that you are somehow in denial about the Paris peace treaties?

The entire Finnish Army was intact at 500.000 men and better armed than ever with Salpa-line also behind them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salpa_Line
They were occupied in getting to Berlin, if they could they would have come to Helsinki also, that read in their battle plan. The entire cold war period they financed and promoted the Communists in Finland. The ultimate goal was annexation, these are all public knowledge confirmed in the archives in Moscow after the USSR break up.
No, just no. The goal of the Soviets was to beat the Germans and that they did. They achieved the objective of the war. What was there to stop them from taking over Finland after that? Or during or before if they so had really wanted? The Salpa-line? Don't make me laugh. It's a tough pill to swallow for many 'warminded' Finns but the reason we weren't occupied by the Soviets was because they decided not to do so, not because Finland achieved any kind of victory.

What would you think if the Russians shelled in Finland for weeks with artillery and violated our airspace? We wouldnt have the right to shoot back? Does that make Georgians quilty? To what?
And if cows could fly...

Like I said I'm not sure how the subsequent guilt will finally settle. I do know one thing, the Ossetians will not be harbouring any warm feelings toward the Georgians.

[Skybird]

You make me sick.Then please stay away from me. Now, and forever.

[Type941]

I doubt that there will be any military intervention but the EU's part, or even the US for that matter. The EU is still spineless after the collapse of the lisbon treaty and the US is in the midst of a presidential election. Neither sides want fighting, I think the best situation we can be looking for is a proxy war of such, with the EU and/or the US supplying arms to Georgia. However that prospect is looking more and more unlikely since the black sea fleet started their blockade of the Georgian coast. So the only way in will be through Turkey, which is always a bit of a political hotcake for the yanks. However, the EU can't really afford for Georgia to fall into Russian hands, primarily because if we loose the pipeline to the reds, we loose our energy security. In this day and age where energy is a big issue especially with the price of oil so volatile at the moment. I doubt the EU nations will want this to happen.
EU, US, NATO countries need to make an official, urgent meeting, that excludes Russia and discuss all sorts of solutions, see where peopel stand, what they think the realistic response should be. It should show Russia that there will be a response of sorts and that they are not part of the process. THeir army I understand is what, 8000 tanks, 1500 planes, 500000 people. It's really not that much compared to NATO and US, and in terms of equipment, 90% of it is soviet union crap, and how that holds up against modern weapons we saw in Iraq. I think EU and US and NATO should really realize that Russia is in no position to bully anyone if the west is UNITED against it.

I said above how i think this conflict will end. Russia will bully georgia to extent where it will capitulate, I won't be surprised if they drop paratroopers on Tbilisi and try to remove Saakashvili from power. In fact, I think it's a clear possibility.

but will this prompt Baltics, Poland, and all of Eastern Europe to INSIST on some kind of defence mechanisms? Why not. I think it's likely. Will this promt Georgia to REALLY seek NATO presence and protection? Likely as well. So Russia is shooting its bear foot right now with a tank gun. At least I hope so because if nothing is done about this, bye bye western principles.

Happy times, agree with all you saying about Finland too. Finland is best example of how you deal with Russia. Progmatically. Buy from them the resources, pay the prices, and that's it. no need for special cozy deals aka Netherldand, Germany, etc which undermine EU.


how baout this qoute from NYT:State-controlled news broadcasts showed Mr. Putin meeting generals, suggesting that he was directly in charge of military operations, eclipsing the authority of President Dmitri A. Medvedev (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/dmitri_a_medvedev/index.html?inline=nyt-per).

Really, who is in charge? Everyone now seeing that Medvedev is a puppet. His country is at war with Georgia, biggest kind of military operation since Afghanistan, and the guy is hiding in Kremlin and makes statmetns time to time that support Putin.. West needs to figure out whom to talk in Russia first it seems! I'd say call Putin cell phone. ;)

PS. I read a book by Edward Lucas called The New Cold War published in March 2008 I think. It talks about what Russia is today, how west should wake up and realize what it's dealing with and how about the only option left to win this new confrontation is to revert to tactic that worked in cold war - speak together and put differences aside. Simple but otherwise the new front of the new cold war, which is baltics, georgia and ukraine is gonna be just the beginning. I urge you guys take a look into the book, quite a good read and gives a well put together point of view on what Russia has become in Putin years and how it's really kind of laughing at everyone and does its thing with KGB in charge taking revenge for collapse of USSR. Ominously, the book said that Georgia is the next battle ground and if that falls into Russian hands, there will be no stopping them. How right was he..

[Type941]

this is interesting and probably most fair analysis: Georgia already lost the war and its about how bad the loss will be now. They should have blocked that one tunnel that let russia resupply the region. now they are faaaacked.

http://joshuatrevino.com/?p=637

[OneToughHerring]

if the west is UNITED against it.
But it isn't, is it? The US is actually still very chummy with Russia, their best ally in the War against Terrorism etc. Harsh language doesn't change anything.

[Skybird]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/weekinreview/10traub.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

The author tries to do justive to the compelxity of motives, but like so many people today he fails at the end in realsiing that much of the russian aggressiveness and bitterness he complains about being growing in Russia, has been directly caused and triggered by NATO'S broken promises and betrayals that led NATO being pushed by Washington closer and closer to the Russian border. What people are totally ignorrant about is that Putin once saw himself in the trdition of Alexander the Great'S attempt to Europeanize Russia and bring it closer to Europe. It'S just that that he had to realise that strategic deals and promises by NATO were not kept, and to Russia's disadvantage so, and that thus such deals were not trustworthy. Not before then he strongly turned on his heels and started to focus on restrengthen Russia as an autark power strong by itself and not depending on european well-meaning anymore.

Do not expect the Russians to accept what the US in return would never accept themselves. If you think the Russians owe it to NATO to behave stupid and against their own most vital interests, then you are foolish. Neither Ukraine nor the Kaukasus is a place for NATO. Thinkl, say, yell and cry wolf what you want, for a Russian perspective that is and will remain unacceptable. If you go for that, don'T be surprised if the sh!t hits the fan. And you share your burden of the overall responsibility for that, then.

NATO is in urgent need to learn it's limits. The deaths of this weekend - NATO has to accept it'S part of the responsibility for that, too - by having encouraged the Georgians beyond reason, and probably having made their hyperactive, sarkozy-like president assuming that he could get away with his stunt from two nights ago - and even earn substantial wetsern support for that. as I see it , someone has gotten a bigger bite than he could swallow. The Russians took the invitation. Enjoy the guests you were calling. It was forseeable.

I only hope that at least some reason has survived in the West so that nobody seriously thinks about a madness like sending troops to Georgia. Such stupidity would drive my mind insane in despair.

[Type941]

If Russia would be nice to its neighbours, none of them would be willing to go into NATO. So how is this Natos fault is mind boggling. It's Russia's fault ofr alienating its neighbours with its dumb foreign policy.

The reason why russias neighbours aren't nice to Russia is because Russia is glorifying Soviet Union as official policy and refuses to pay any kind of reparations to peoople it repressed for 70 years. Why should neighbours be nice to it?!!! You guys have not got a clue about how people here feel about what Russia did to its population over 70 years of soviet rule. not a slightest clue actualy.

[AntEater]

Ahem, most baltic and east european states joined NATO in the 1990s, when Russia was not able to exert any kind of power outside its own borders, and sometimes not even there, as Chechnya showed.

[Skybird]

You guys have not got a clue about how people here feel about what Russia did to its population over 70 years of soviet rule. not a slightest clue actualy.

Yes indeed. Our country was just divided with a minefield as a borderline and we Westerners lived with the strongest accumulation of firepower in the history of mankind just a stonethrow away for fourty years. What do we know.

[Konovalov]

Russia may be way out of line in many of it's actions over the last couple of days but there should not even be talk of Georgia joining NATO. On that issue I have sympathy for Russia. It is stupidity on the part of those Western players that have been pushing for Georgia to join NATO and these desires have helped to invite the Russian response. It would be nice to hear from guys such as CCCP and Xabbarus on this issue as at the moment it tends to be a one sided conversation with the exception of Skybird who seems to be the target again for his dissenting viewpoint.

[Type941]

Ahem, most baltic and east european states joined NATO in the 1990s.
Try 2004. :roll:



the exception of Skybird who seems to be the target again for his dissenting viewpoint.
but he suggested I should let the place I live, be sacrificed for the sake that his life remains nice and peachy. Excuse the food to be objecting because someone is hungry!



You guys have not got a clue about how people here feel about what Russia did to its population over 70 years of soviet rule. not a slightest clue actualy.
Yes indeed. Our country was just divided with a minefield as a borderline and we Westerners lived with the strongest accumulation of firepower in the history of mankind just a stonethrow away for fourty years. What do we know. I'm talking about how and why people feel about Russia the way they do that it pushes them to join NATO and chose West, not about what it's like to live during cold war. :roll:

[Konovalov]

Just been reported here in the UK that Russian land combat forces are advancing on the Georgian town of Gori. This is becoming crazier by the hour. :nope: Russia has escalated this conflict far beyond the bounds of common sense. If such reports are accurate then this is now without question the invasion of a soverign nation by Russia. :down:

On a side note isn't Gori the birthplace of Stalin?

[baggygreen]

I agree with sky, anteater and konovalov in saying that georgia should never have been encouraged to join nato. The beauty of independent thought and the ability to express on a forum like this is that while sky, and and I disagree with the blame game of the war and how far russia can/should take it - we can still find other points on which to agree.

I'm of the opinion there are many other places that shouldnt be part of nato, and from a russian perspective, lets be honest - nato was formed as an anti-soviet (read: russian) block. The "soviiet union" broke up, but nato grew and moved eastward, further unnerving the russians. Next, you see a country, georgia, on russias own doorstep, looking to join nato. not really acceptable for a historically paranoid people, is it!

I think this is essentially a case of opportunism. Whether or not the opportunity was orchestrated by Russia or not we'll never know for sure, no matter how strong our suspicions may be. Russia saw an opportunity to show off its rebuilt military might, prevent nato from reaching its doorstep, tell the west "hey look, we can do it too", and most importantly, as I alluded to earlier today (or was it yesterday, i dont remember) they can secure energy. Thats no mean feat, because remember they're chummy with Iran and theres no guarantee that they'' have a continuous flow from there, depending on the way things unfold.

As far as military assistance etc, that wont happen. No nation will send troops to help georgia, for 2 reasons - one, its only georgia (not a good idea for any politician to lose men for some "far away place) and two, the war will be over soon anyway. I've no doubt the 2nd front will open and we'll see russian tanks in Tblisi in 2 weeks or less.

Even the US won't help, they might shake their finger at russia and tell putin he's been a naughty boy, but they need russia too much.

[Type941]

the war will be over soon anyway. I've no doubt the 2nd front will open and we'll see russian tanks in Tblisi in 2 weeks or less.

A russian army on streets of a city of a sovereign, democratic nation. and you think it's ok. They'll rape women, kill men, slaughter children. All in name of peace keeping. Haha, you guys are amazing.

[Konovalov]

the war will be over soon anyway. I've no doubt the 2nd front will open and we'll see russian tanks in Tblisi in 2 weeks or less.

A russian army on streets of a city of a sovereign, democratic nation. and you think it's ok. They'll rape women, kill men, slaughter children. All in name of peace keeping. Haha, you guys are amazing.
Please don't get all emotional and take what somebody said out of context. I can't see anywhere in baggygreen's comments that imply what you have written above. Take a breath and a step back for a bit.

[Skybird]

The Russians have choosen to decide the issue now by force. They do what is needed for that. they claim the sdame right for Abchasia and Ossetia that the West has accepted to give Kosovo. there have been two referedums in 1992 and 2006. And some people here already forget that Ossetia already is divided - what about the decison of that ethinc group that you accept to take place all so willingly? North Ossetia never belonged to Georgia, only the South.

Saakachvili's latest gamble went terribly wroing, and backfires. A very stupid man, i think, very very stupid indeed. He was not in the position to try provoking the russians - that was just what they wanted. It seems they accepted the invitation and now are determined to make best use of it.

What will happen? The Russians will not occupy all Georgia and try to bring it back into Russia, it would mess up international diplomatic relation too much. but they will leave no doubt on who it is having the control over the place, and who has whose throat between his teeth. From a position of undisputed military control they will use the situation to try to solve the issue about the Ossetians and Abchasians according to how these people have voted for it. They will also try to establish a lasting roadblock that will prevent NATO from trying to establish a NTO presence in this region, which form Russia simply is totally unacceptable. This they can acchieve the best way by keeping it in an unstable state that messes up all NATO's cost-effect calculations.

If this thing lets several wetsern policies implode, than this is because the West has chosen these policies incompetently and shortsigthed from the very beginning.

for an end, I would quote Helmut Schmidt, 90, imo the most intelligent and most realistic leader Germany ever had after WWII. Four or five years ago he answered a remark about the West not being adamant enough on Russia turning into a Western style democracy: "The Russia of today is more democratic than it ever has been before in all it's history."

Save your angry comments. Bite your tongues and think about what he really was saying by that. If you think he was just describing an obvious historic fact, you accuse Schmidt of a profanity that he simply does not subscribe to. Schmidt usually does not waste time to simply state what is obvious anyway.

[Swedish_Submarine]

I find it funny that Russia refused to a cease-fire, if Russia were truly concerned about it's citizens, would it not want to stop the fighting?

[Skybird]

any idea of what has happened to the many earlier cease-fires in the past 16 years? The last was broken by Georgia just two days ago. ;)

[Oberon]

I find this interesting and in a small way heartening to hear:
In response, Ukraine has threatened to block the return of Russian warships to their Black Sea base at Sevastopol saying it does not want to be "drawn into a military conflict".

It shows that the Ukraine still has it in them, however I can't see the Russkies responding too well to this. :hmm:

To be honest, and this is my point of view, I can't see the sense of Georgia starting this war, unless Villi hoped that NATO would back him up, in which case he's an idiot, and to be honest it's an old trick to disguise troops as the enemy, open fire on your own forces and then claim enemy aggression and use it to declare war...and it's surely not a co-incidence that Russia had a large scale military exercise near the South Ossetian border recently. :hmm: Now, is Russia trying to bring Georgia back into the Pact or just cow them into submission? If they are choosing the latter then I can't see that working, not as long as Villi is in charge, which leaves the former, and if the former is what they're up to, then Russian tanks will not stop at the South Ossetian border and they will head for Tblisi ASAP, which personally, I can't see happening but time will tell.

One thing is for certain though, it's bloody hard to get accurate news about this, as Fish said, the first casualty is truth. :damn:

[1480]

For all who espouse the idea that nato pushed Georgia into making a formal bid to become a part of it, I ask this question: why weren't they given an exemption to join then? My answer, to placate Russia.

Now that the enlightened minds of the european members of nato who had foresight to see that barring Georgia from entering nato, would keep Russia happy, well, how is this line of thought working out?

If you can't see that this nothing but a punitive action (along with a resource grab)as well as an example to other former SU countries to toe the party line, then please, put down the bong.

You would have a leg to stand on if Russia stopped at Ossetia, but since they are continuing their roadtrip south..... nyet.

[Steel_Tomb]

any idea of what has happened to the many earlier cease-fires in the past 16 years? The last was broken by Georgia just two days ago. ;)
If you take separatist rebels firing on Georgian villages as a cease fire, I hate to think what you would call provocation! If French factions started to open fire on German soil tomorrow for a few weeks, would you not retaliate? Or at least make moves to defend your sovereign territory?? Does Georgia not have the right to defend itself, regardless of the nation attacking?

On another note, this move by Ukraine is very interesting indeed. Its nice to see that even after all the energy blackmail and threats from Russia, they still have the balls to stand up for themselves and their allies... shame we don't.

[Diopos]

...
One thing is for certain though, it's bloody hard to get accurate news about this, as Fish said, the first casualty is truth. :damn:

Wrong.
First casualty is logic, truth is usually number two.....

[Oberon]

...
One thing is for certain though, it's bloody hard to get accurate news about this, as Fish said, the first casualty is truth. :damn:

Wrong.
First casualty is logic, truth is usually number two.....

Touché :yep:

[Skybird]

any idea of what has happened to the many earlier cease-fires in the past 16 years? The last was broken by Georgia just two days ago. ;)
If you take separatist rebels firing on Georgian villages as a cease fire, I hate to think what you would call provocation! If French factions started to open fire on German soil tomorrow for a few weeks, would you not retaliate? Or at least make moves to defend your sovereign territory?? Does Georgia not have the right to defend itself, regardless of the nation attacking?

On another note, this move by Ukraine is very interesting indeed. Its nice to see that even after all the energy blackmail and threats from Russia, they still have the balls to stand up for themselves and their allies... shame we don't.

As to the best knoweldge I can filter out of the many news sources, there were troiubles just short ago, and then a formal cease-fire. Two night sago that cease-fire again was broken by georgia starting to attack by surprise into that local capirtal. In fact the high number of killed people are easisest attriubuted to them being caught by complete surprise.

On a total level, the skirmishes of the past weeks, and the scale of operation we see now, indeed compare to each other like a relative status of cease-fire to full blown war.

Also, i would like to hear how you bring Kosovo and Ossetia together, just curious if you do, and if you even care. If you allow Kosovarian'S call for independence, you have no eycuse to deny it to the Ossetians. If you support Georgias claim for this territorial integrity (that then like under Stalin and Tito would be enforced in ignoration of ethnic population patterns on the ground - see where it led), you must refuse the deal on Kosovo and say it was wring to give them independence - even more so when the claim wa smade by a majority of people that just ten yars earlier wehre not living in Kosovo, but have been imported from Albania). Just curious - are you for or against the way how Kosovo was handled? You see, for the Russians this is a very major issue, and a precedent to which the rightfully point back now. And how would you deal wi8th the moral dileamm that you would keep one people separated into Russian north Ossetia and Georgian south Osetia, if insisting on Geogias territorial integrity? You would accept to further bolster an ethnic crime by that.

Tricky, I know. that's Kaukasus. That's Balkan. That's post-Soviet southern provinces. All credits to Stalin (an Ossetian, I think!) - minds like mine just try to make sense of the mess he has left behind.

[Steel_Tomb]

I may be wrong, but although there was conflict between South Ossitia and Georgia, there wasn't the scale of culling that happened in Bosnia and Kosovo. I haven't seen any evidence of mass graves and rape in Ossitia like in the Serbian conflict. From that point my stance of Kosovo independence is that Serbia lost the moral right to govern the region after it brutally culled anyone that wasn't a Serb.

I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am... but such things haven't happened in Ossitia. Also, Bosnia and Kosovo haven't been taking random pot shots at Serbia for years after the ceasefire. You also can't just throw passports around and say they are your citizens. We could post thousands of passports to French citizens, and just because they may have a british family history it doesn't make them british. Georgia had the right to defend itself, as after a call for a cease fire was annouced before the attack Georgia reported that attacks from sepratists actually increased.

There may be a case for Ossitian indepence, but Russia is just stampeeding throughout the region desperate to assert itself and gain complete control over its former satelites. This is not the way to go about getting independence at all, in fact... its more about absorbing South Ossitia into Russia thats the problem, it wouldn't stand on its own, it would just be absorbed into the huge mass that is Russia. Also, the popuation of Kosovo is roughly about 2 million correct? South Ossetia only has about 80,000 people there... hardly enough to warrant it as a soverign nation! Its like making Norfolk an indepedent country... wouldn't work.

[heartc]

What you people have to understand is that Russia in control of the flow of oil to Europe will not weaken everyone in the EU. With its cozy ties to Germany, Schröder sitting in GAZPROM, many German companies deeply involved in Russia's economy, it will strengthen Germany's position in the EU. See: Germany rationalizes the subjugation of Russia's small democratic neighbours - disliked by the German politics and her citizens anyway - back into satellite states and holds a unified EU response off the Russians' back, and in return Germany will not suffer so much as a bruise in supply with natural resources and its economic relationships with Russia. And with Germany being the only real political valve of that oil to the rest of Europe, it will be in a very...comfortable position above everybody else. And all those little inconvinient new member states are killed off - twice.

When you zoom a bit further out and look at the even broader picture, this policy would be perfectly in line with the Anti-American sentiments domesticly - continously fueled by the state-sponsored as well as independent media - and according tendencies in foreign policy. It will further weaken NATO, where Germany already now is only offering token support. It wouldn't surprise me, if a bit further into the future, this axis Berlin-Moscow might connect into Berlin-Teheran-Moscow. But even if it doesn't, it will make for a good bulwark against China. As you can see, what is totally missing here is any trans-atlantic link. That thing which for the first time brought actual and enduring liberty to Germany and Europe. If this scenario manifests in reality, kiss your liberty good bye, Europe. Because here comes the catch: Germany is certainly not going to be that beacon of liberty for Europe that you saw on the other side of the pond. Germany didn't embrace liberty by itself, it got it for granted - some might even say impressed upon. It isn't really embraced by anyone here and never was. People don't like the responsiblity that comes with it and would rather have the nanny state, the fools. And you can see it in the shamefull indifference and a "you have only yourself to blame" attitude with which certain members here will watch a young democracy being swallowed up by the bully. That's also the bottom line the media is now beginning to ponder here, in the end probably unanimously. In the Cold War, the German public opinion was "Lieber rot als tot." - "Rather red than dead." The former liberty will be replaced by what is a much more convenient style for any bureaucratic monster state: Putin's "democracy". Something the EU is already in danger of becoming all by itself without any of this happening.

[AntEater]

Lol
The most self-hating german of all forums is at it again.
It always suprises me you didn't allready emigrate
How can you bear living with all of us germans, if you're so much better than the rest?

Rest assured, if the evil german-russian-iranian axis comes along (are you one of Tom Clancy's ghostwriters?), I will personally send you to Siberia
:rotfl:
I've never read such a crap in my life...
:damn:

[1480]

I'm begining to understand now... if the US and George W. Bush had done this, there would be calls for war crimes, imperialism and illegal invasions of sovereign nations. Since that is not the case we continue on playing "6 degrees of separation" to justify our continuing hatred of America.

Well, Georgia is an extension of the US because it's president is a lap dog to Cheney and big oil interests. So, it's fine to blame Georgia because the trail leads back to the evil empire of America. BRILLIANT!


Chechnaya is a better example. So it's acceptable when the russians want to do a little housekeeping but god forbid anyone else should.

[Happy Times]

Have you been a sleep in the history lessons? Lenin recognized Finnish independence 1917 only because he didnt have a choice at the time, at the same time he sent Stalin to Helsinki to incourage a revolution that broke in -18.
Finland could've declared indepence on it's own but Russia could've made the situation very difficult by not accepting it. As for the subsequent political wrangling that led to the civil war is a whole another issue entirely with a lot of bad blood still circulating. For example have the deaths of the "reds" ever been fully accounted? They are continuing to find more and more of the "red" bodies killed, usually from summary executions by the "whites", during the civil war, is that the type of foundation our wonderful, civilised western nation is built on?

No your starting to twist FACTS. Finland had an DEMOCRATICALLY elected goverment that Bolsevik backed and armed Reds Guards tried to overthrow. It was orchestrated from Russia and thousands of Russian troops took part, that is why it is called War of Independence.The Red deaths are well documented, you dont know what you are talking about. http://vesta.narc.fi/cgi-bin/db2www/sotasurmaetusivu/main?lang=fi
I hope you are not in purposely trying to distort the truth..And that is the foundation this country is built on, there wouldnt be Finland if we would have lost then.
Are you a Red?

It was Bolsevik backed and armed annexation attempt! And they didnt give nothing in -44 and after, the invasion was stopped!
What invasion? We were in cahoots with the nazis well before WW 2 and the Russians could've taken over Finland too. They didn't and subsequently the Finns have been talking about a "defensive victory". Load of crap if you ask me or the Paris peace treaties that are still valid today. Are you saying that you are somehow in denial about the Paris peace treaties?

Are you lying or are you just ignorant? FACTS!:damn: WHEN WERE WE WITH CAHOOTS WITH THE NAZIS BEFORE -41??? The Nazis prevented arms shipments from other countries to Finland during Winter War, ever heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact!?!
They did try to invade the whole country! Finland was never occupied! There was no unconditional surrender!
Finland doesnt recognize the military aspects of the treaty anymore, not since the USSR brake up! Do i have to dig up the numerous sources for you to get these FACTS?
Are you ignorant or indoctrinated?

The entire Finnish Army was intact at 500.000 men and better armed than ever with Salpa-line also behind them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salpa_Line
They were occupied in getting to Berlin, if they could they would have come to Helsinki also, that read in their battle plan. The entire cold war period they financed and promoted the Communists in Finland. The ultimate goal was annexation, these are all public knowledge confirmed in the archives in Moscow after the USSR break up.
No, just no. The goal of the Soviets was to beat the Germans and that they did. They achieved the objective of the war. What was there to stop them from taking over Finland after that? Or during or before if they so had really wanted? The Salpa-line? Don't make me laugh. It's a tough pill to swallow for many 'warminded' Finns but the reason we weren't occupied by the Soviets was because they decided not to do so, not because Finland achieved any kind of victory.


I said the their goal was annexation but not with ALL cost! They had to consider what US, UK and France would do had there been an invasion attempt right after the war.
They tried to infiltrate Finland untill the Soviet collapse, they never gave up on the ultimate goal of annexation. These arent something im making up, these are FACTS that historians have found on Soviet documents and interviewed people! Im really pissed you come here and spill your pseudo history to the world:damn:


What would you think if the Russians shelled in Finland for weeks with artillery and violated our airspace? We wouldnt have the right to shoot back? Does that make Georgians quilty? To what?
And if cows could fly...

Like I said I'm not sure how the subsequent guilt will finally settle. I do know one thing, the Ossetians will not be harbouring any warm feelings toward the Georgians.

I clearly see where your symphaties are:nope:

[Happy Times]

Double post.

[Konovalov]

Right now in the UN Security Council the US Ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Mamozy Khalilzad has issued a damning criticism of Russia and her actions in Georgia. Russian Ambassador to UN in now just beginning to speak. I'm watching on CNN live now.

[1480]

A neat little piece I picked up:

Urkaine, a former Soviet republic like Georgia, said it might prevent Russian navy ships involved in the blockade from returning to their bases in the Crimea, an spokeswoman with Urkaine's foreign ministry said.

"This statement is new to us and it requires analysis," said Russian Defense Ministry Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn. "It is a case of a third party intervening in the process, which is quite surprising." :o

[Happy Times]

Lol
The most self-hating german of all forums is at it again.
It always suprises me you didn't allready emigrate
How can you bear living with all of us germans, if you're so much better than the rest?

Rest assured, if the evil german-russian-iranian axis comes along (are you one of Tom Clancy's ghostwriters?), I will personally send you to Siberia
:rotfl:
I've never read such a crap in my life...
:damn:

He goes a bit far but you cant deny the "special" relatiion between Germany and Russia. You yourself earlier accepted possible Russian invasion of Baltics..Would you also like partion Poland again with them? Because im sure Russia would be willing in a snap.

[antikristuseke]

Happy Times That would literaly have to happen over my cold dead corpse.

[Bruno Lotse]

<i>In Georgia Clash, a Lesson on U.S. Need for Russia</i>

WASHINGTON — The image of President Bush smiling and chatting with Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/vladimir_v_putin/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russiaandtheformersovietunion/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) from the stands of the Beijing Olympics even as Russian aircraft were shelling Georgia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/georgia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) outlines the reality of America’s Russia policy. While America considers Georgia its strongest ally in the bloc of former Soviet countries, Washington needs Russia too much on big issues like Iran to risk it all to defend Georgia. The New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/world/europe/10diplo.html?_r=3&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

So, U.S. looks like out:yep:
“Well, maybe we’re learning to shut up now.”
Anyone wanna volunteer to try out Russkies?
Or sure, we all here are brave VIRTUAL warriors.:arrgh!:

[AntEater]

German politics have allways fluctuated between "continental" and "atlantic" positions.
Heartc is a proponent of the "atlantic" view, I'm a continental.
He has all the right to have his pro US view, but what I don't like is his attitude towards the average german and his holier than thou attitude. Nobody wants to partition anything.
I always ask myself, why can't Finland and the rest of the bunch get along with a stronger Russia? A stronger Russia won't just go away by pointing fingers at it.
If they are agressive, you adopt an armed stance and show them you're not intimidated. Finland has a good army and should be able to do that. The Baltic states are in NATO. Sorry, I don't see any chance of Russia doing anything against these nations right now. Same goes for Poland. Ukraine is another matter, but that Country is so deeply divided I'm not betting on anything.

Problem is, this eastern nationalism seems to many westerners more like a tool of internal politics.
Blaming an outside enemy on all that is going wrong. Germany experienced that firsthand when the other Kascinsky (the 50 year old Virgin) was still prime minister.
There's no country more harmless than Germany, especially in relations to our former victims of WW2, yet for every friendly move towards Poland, Kaszynsky spat in our face. Polish customs agents fired on german tourist boats and such things.
I can imagine similar things occur towards Russia.
International relations are a give and take. An authoritarian government is not a free for all for ignoring all rules of international conduct.
Even if a strong neighbour is a potential threat, constant animosity will not make him less a threat.

[Happy Times]

German politics have allways fluctuated between "continental" and "atlantic" positions.
Heartc is a proponent of the "atlantic" view, I'm a continental.
He has all the right to have his pro US view, but what I don't like is his attitude towards the average german and his holier than thou attitude. Nobody wants to partition anything.
I always ask myself, why can't Finland and the rest of the bunch get along with a stronger Russia? A stronger Russia won't just go away by pointing fingers at it.
If they are agressive, you adopt an armed stance and show them you're not intimidated. Finland has a good army and should be able to do that. The Baltic states are in NATO. Sorry, I don't see any chance of Russia doing anything against these nations right now. Same goes for Poland. Ukraine is another matter, but that Country is so deeply divided I'm not betting on anything.

Problem is, this eastern nationalism seems to many westerners more like a tool of internal politics.
Blaming an outside enemy on all that is going wrong. Germany experienced that firsthand when the other Kascinsky (the 50 year old Virgin) was still prime minister.
There's no country more harmless than Germany, especially in relations to our former victims of WW2, yet for every friendly move towards Poland, Kaszynsky spat in our face. Polish customs agents fired on german tourist boats and such things.
I can imagine similar things occur towards Russia.
International relations are a give and take. An authoritarian government is not a free for all for ignoring all rules of international conduct.
Even if a strong neighbour is a potential threat, constant animosity will not make him less a threat.

The provocations and violations come constantly from the Russian side, you really dont believe me? If Germany has given up on its territorial ambitions in "between" doesnt meen Russia has. They havent denounced their WW2 past in anyway like you have. I dont think you really understand Russia, this is not ment as an insult.

[Happy Times]

Happy Times That would literaly have to happen over my cold dead corpse.

Same here bro, lets wish it doesnt come to that.

[AntEater]

The provocations and violations come constantly from the Russian side, you really dont believe me? I Germany has given up on its territorial ambissions in "between" doesnt meen Russia has. They havent denounced their WW2 past in anyway like you have. I dont think you really understand Russia, this is not ment as an insult.

Seriously, in what way did Russia recently provoke Finland?
I'm asking because I haven't heard of such provocations lately, not because I doubt it per se.
I know about the tensions in the Baltics (Bronze soldier etc) but nothing regarding Finland itself.
You're right, Russians are maybe the second nationalistic large nation on the planet after the US (or third after China and the US).
Problem is, they're there and won't go away soon. NATO can't march on Moscow.
So how do we live with them?

[Happy Times]

Anyone wanna volunteer to try out Russkies?
Or sure, we all here are brave VIRTUAL warriors.:arrgh!:

If something is organized im seriously considering, im single, fit and trained.

[Skybird]

It appears in an effort to limit the damage from it'S folly, Georgia offers surrender, but does not label it as that, hoping the Russians will buy in. Wise decision of theirs, but a little late. If it is like that, the Russian combat strategy to demonstrate full firepower all across the country was successful in short time in demonstrating Georgia how vulnerable it is.

Someone mentioned passports being throw around in Ossetia to convert the population into Russians. I fell for that story, too, initially, but then became aware that even before that formalisation the Ossetian people already were oriented towards Moscow, since a very long time. It is a historic tie. The passports have little to do with it, and now only serve as a formal defence of Moscow towards the world why to protect its citizens. Even without passports, the Ossetians would have wanted to turn towards Russia, not Georgia. Live with it, the Ossetians are pro-russion, and dislike Georgians. that may have its cause in historical past georgian nationalism and supression.

From that perpsective I would say: my God, let them go where they want.

But there are strategic and economic and ressource-oriented interests at stake, that is why the West supports Geogia and that is why Russia won't give up. Humanism , and where the people do want to belong to, will not be the criterion by which the status of Ossetia wil be decided. In a perfect world, both things just would fall together - by chance, not by causal link.

We do not know what Georgia is offering Russia more behind the curtain and away from the mikes and cameras. If it is sufficient, this war could be over soon, with the Russian objectives acchieved. But I would be surprised if the Russians give up without any kind of formal, written guarantee that eorgia will no more use military force to bolster its claims for Abchasia and Ossetia. Which effectively could mean far-leading autonomy and informal independence for them both - just as they like to have. If the reality fuctions by these terms, there could be some time of rest before the next crisis erupts in some years, until then Geogie could have saved at leats its face by formally not having given independence to them, while pratcically both are living by it.

That phase of temporary cease-fire will then be called "diplomacy" - until the next round begins.

Ukraine no doubt will pay a price for their "impertinence". They better stockpile some gas and oil.

[Happy Times]

The provocations and violations come constantly from the Russian side, you really dont believe me? I Germany has given up on its territorial ambissions in "between" doesnt meen Russia has. They havent denounced their WW2 past in anyway like you have. I dont think you really understand Russia, this is not ment as an insult.

Seriously, in what way did Russia recently provoke Finland?
I'm asking because I haven't heard of such provocations lately, not because I doubt it per se.
I know about the tensions in the Baltics (Bronze soldier etc) but nothing regarding Finland itself.
You're right, Russians are maybe the second nationalistic large nation on the planet after the US (or third after China and the US).
Problem is, they're there and won't go away soon. NATO can't march on Moscow.
So how do we live with them?

Airspace violations, accusations about Finnish conpiracies inside Russia, Finland breaking the human rights of Russians in Finland etc.. I can start digging if ill find some links for you.

[Happy Times]

It appears in an effort to limit the damage from it'S folly Georgia offers surrender, but does not label it as that, hoping the Russians will buy in. Wise decision of theirs, but a little late.

someone mentioned passports being throw around in Ossetia to convert the population into Russians. I fell for that story, too, initially, but then became aware that even before that formalisation the Ossetian people already were oriented towards Moscow, since a very long time. It is a historic tie. The passports have little to do with it, and now only serve as a formal defence of Moscow towards the world why to protect its citizens. Even without passports, the Ossetians would have wanted to turn towards Russia, not Georgia. Live with it, the Ossetians are pro-russion, and dislike Georgians. that may have its cause in historical past georgian nationalism and supression.

From that perpsective I would say: my God, let them go where they want.

But there are strtaegic and economic and ressource-oriented interested at stake, that is why the West supports Geogia and that is why russia won't give up. Humanism , and where the people do want to belong to, will not be the criterion by which the status of Ossetia wil be decided.

We do not know what Georgia is offering Russia behind the curtain and away from the mikes and cameras. If it is sufficient, this could be over soon, with the russian objectives acchieved. But I would be surprised if the Russians give up without any kind of formal, written guarantee that georgia will no more use military force to bolster its claims for Abchasia and Ossetia. Whi8ch effectively ould mean far-leading autonomy and informal independence for them both - just as they like to have. If the reality fuctions by these terms, there could be some time of rest before the next crisis erupts in some years, until then Geogie could have saved at leats its face by formally not having given independence to them, while pratcically both are living by it.

That phase of temporary cease-fire will then be called "diplomacy" - until the next round begins.

Im also cynical and realistic of the world lots of the time but without any ideals a man has nothing.

[TLAM Strike]

Two russian jets are confirmed shot down, apparently a Su-25 and a Tu-22. The Backfire is interesting, since no Backfires are on the ORBAT of the 4th Air Army. That means strategic or naval bomber forces were allready involved, most likely in the air field attack. There was a photo earyler in this thread that showed a Su-24 that looked like it might have been Russian Navy (Blue paint). Unless Russian ground support and strike guys paint their fencers air superiority blue-grey.

[AntEater]

According to the spokesman of the russian general staff (source: russiatoday.com), the Backfire was on a defense suppression (SEAD) mission with precision guided weapons.
The crew was apparently recovered by the Russians.
The Su-25 was shot down by georgian air defenses over the frontlines, pilot captured.

[Skybird]

It appears in an effort to limit the damage from it'S folly Georgia offers surrender, but does not label it as that, hoping the Russians will buy in. Wise decision of theirs, but a little late.

someone mentioned passports being throw around in Ossetia to convert the population into Russians. I fell for that story, too, initially, but then became aware that even before that formalisation the Ossetian people already were oriented towards Moscow, since a very long time. It is a historic tie. The passports have little to do with it, and now only serve as a formal defence of Moscow towards the world why to protect its citizens. Even without passports, the Ossetians would have wanted to turn towards Russia, not Georgia. Live with it, the Ossetians are pro-russion, and dislike Georgians. that may have its cause in historical past georgian nationalism and supression.

From that perpsective I would say: my God, let them go where they want.

But there are strtaegic and economic and ressource-oriented interested at stake, that is why the West supports Geogia and that is why russia won't give up. Humanism , and where the people do want to belong to, will not be the criterion by which the status of Ossetia wil be decided.

We do not know what Georgia is offering Russia behind the curtain and away from the mikes and cameras. If it is sufficient, this could be over soon, with the russian objectives acchieved. But I would be surprised if the Russians give up without any kind of formal, written guarantee that georgia will no more use military force to bolster its claims for Abchasia and Ossetia. Whi8ch effectively ould mean far-leading autonomy and informal independence for them both - just as they like to have. If the reality fuctions by these terms, there could be some time of rest before the next crisis erupts in some years, until then Geogie could have saved at leats its face by formally not having given independence to them, while pratcically both are living by it.

That phase of temporary cease-fire will then be called "diplomacy" - until the next round begins.

Im also cynical and realistic of the world lots of the time but without any ideals a man has nothing.

Ideals without an idea of what can be achieved in realostic terms tend to cause more harm than good, and waste effort in many missions in vein or m issions that casue the opposite of the good they intended. I am not cynical, i am realist. If all people would be less idealistic, and more realistic, this world would be some kind of a better, less harmful world, and more people would earn more knowledge and insight.

You need ideals for a vision giving you a direction. Yopu need realism to master the way. Living by ideals alone is like having a naiol without hammer, or a compass without a map.

[Happy Times]

It appears in an effort to limit the damage from it'S folly Georgia offers surrender, but does not label it as that, hoping the Russians will buy in. Wise decision of theirs, but a little late.

someone mentioned passports being throw around in Ossetia to convert the population into Russians. I fell for that story, too, initially, but then became aware that even before that formalisation the Ossetian people already were oriented towards Moscow, since a very long time. It is a historic tie. The passports have little to do with it, and now only serve as a formal defence of Moscow towards the world why to protect its citizens. Even without passports, the Ossetians would have wanted to turn towards Russia, not Georgia. Live with it, the Ossetians are pro-russion, and dislike Georgians. that may have its cause in historical past georgian nationalism and supression.

From that perpsective I would say: my God, let them go where they want.

But there are strtaegic and economic and ressource-oriented interested at stake, that is why the West supports Geogia and that is why russia won't give up. Humanism , and where the people do want to belong to, will not be the criterion by which the status of Ossetia wil be decided.

We do not know what Georgia is offering Russia behind the curtain and away from the mikes and cameras. If it is sufficient, this could be over soon, with the russian objectives acchieved. But I would be surprised if the Russians give up without any kind of formal, written guarantee that georgia will no more use military force to bolster its claims for Abchasia and Ossetia. Whi8ch effectively ould mean far-leading autonomy and informal independence for them both - just as they like to have. If the reality fuctions by these terms, there could be some time of rest before the next crisis erupts in some years, until then Geogie could have saved at leats its face by formally not having given independence to them, while pratcically both are living by it.

That phase of temporary cease-fire will then be called "diplomacy" - until the next round begins.

Im also cynical and realistic of the world lots of the time but without any ideals a man has nothing.

Ideals without an idea of what can be achieved in realostic terms tend to cause more harm than good, and waste effort in many missions in vein or m issions that casue the opposite of the good they intended. I am not cynical, i am realist. If all people would be less idealistic, and more realistic, this world would be some kind of a better, less harmful world, and more people would earn more knowledge and insight.

You need ideals for a vision giving you a direction. Yopu need realism to master the way. Living by ideals alone is like having a naiol without hammer, or a compass without a map.

Very well put but there are somethings worth fighting even if the odds are against you.

Death is not the worst that can happen to men.
Plato

[AntEater]

Btw, this thread has been finn-jacked.....

Despite my obviously rather pro-russian viewpoint, I'm still worried about two friends in Georgia.
David, a 28 year old guy. study buddy and dorm neighbour, host of the wildest and funniest parties of all times (mostly joint russian-georgian), is working in Tbilisi, showed up on Skype yesterday, but I couldn't reach him, most likely too busy talking to relatives in Germany. At least 9th October probably means he hasn't been called to serve. He never served in the army, but has had some paramilitary training in some nationalist youth organisation. But apparently they're sofar only calling up reservists who served a term in the regular armed forces.

Nana, a 23 year old I got to know at a dorm party who's been among my friends for around 4 years now just flew to georgia to have her passport renewed and got caught up there. While apparently women are not called up, her home is quite close to South Ossetia. Only heard about her yesterday, I hope she gets through this all right. Idiotic thing is that she actually tried to apply for german citizenship in order to become a policewoman in germany, but currently she's still a georgian citizen only. Westerners are apparently not evacuated in an organized fashion anyway.

I hope they're all right.

I know far more russians than georgians, but fortunately no one who is actively serving and no one who lives in the region. All other georgians I know are fortunately here right now.

Maybe its that what we should all consider:
We're sitting here behind the safety of a keyboard, all these people fighting and dying on both sides are real people, with friends and family.

[Steel_Tomb]

Been watching the live feed from the security council meeting. The US representative used some very strong language and gave Russia a bit of a verbal slap around the face :). From what I saw only the French, USA and UK along with some of the Eastern Europe nations like Croatia care much about Georgia's position. It was quite enjoyable to watch the Russian ambassador squirm in his seat weeding his way away from answering direct questions about Russia's ambitions in the region. When the USA asked Russia if there objective was regime change, following a conversation in with US sec Rice with the Russian foreign Minister who was quoted saying that the Georgian President "must go" he moved on very quickly saying that "Russia does not use the term regime change" what kind of bollocks is that? Am I right in thinking that was a jab at the Iraq war?

[Type941]

watch the russian news.

1. they said georgian warship (cruiser nonetheless!) attacked Russian ships and was sank
2. this is plan by dick cheyney. He envisioned this to keep republicans in power (this agressive russia plays into hands of mccain who is 'strong on foreign policy' and is 'anti russian'
3. putin says he doesn't see SO and Abkhazia in georgia after this anymore
4. medved said he thinks it's genocide
5. french sarkozy is coming into moscow to talk next week.

[Steel_Tomb]

watch the russian news.

1. they said georgian warship (cruiser nonetheless!) attacked Russian ships and was sank
2. this is plan by dick cheyney. He envisioned this to keep republicans in power (this agressive russia plays into hands of mccain who is 'strong on foreign policy' and is 'anti russian'
3. putin says he doesn't see SO and Abkhazia in georgia after this anymore
4. medved said he thinks it's genocide
5. french sarkozy is coming into moscow to talk next week.

Lol, you mean the Russians think this has all been planned by the Yanks? LOL.... jesus, I thought that they had gotten over that Cold War paranoia. One thing I can say now, the Russians need to help themselves before getting involved in foreign affairs! They will be saying that Global Warming was created by a US made weapon of mass destruction next lol. If I could read Russian I'd probably watch the state run channel for a few laughs looking at their war time "protect the motheralnd my fellow comrades" propagana crap. :rotfl:

[1480]

I couldn't stop laughing at #2 but some gullible young ones will eat that hook, line and sinker.

[AntEater]

Actually, Angela Merkel is supposed to meet Medvedev some time this week in Sotchi (!) which is quite close to the crisis region, and the appointment has not been canceled.
So I would say it is probable that Sarko is not to be outdone by the germans.
Seriously, France and Germany can do quite a lot here, as they're not as involved with Georgia as the US.
German TV news claimed the georgian ceasefire announcement today was due to negotiations started by german foreign minister Steinmeier.
Might sound braggy, but is likely as Steinmeier has experience in the region, knows Medvedev and Sakashvili personally for years and is generally a good diplomat.

Regarding the naval "battle" off Poti, german media took it up as well, but called the georgian unit sunk a "Schnellboot" (fast attack craft), which is much more likely, as Georgia has missile boats, one a ukrainian supplied soviet type, the other a french build combattante with Exocets, acquired from greece (similar to our old Type 148s).
I suppose the "cruiser" translation came because in russian navy language, the traditional termini like cruiser/destroyer/frigate are not used. I suppose the russians claimed to have sunk a "rocket ship", which just means a vessel armed with missiles, but is also the designation for russian ships that are called "cruisers" by western sources.

Here's the report by interfax.
http://www.interfax.com/3/417902/news.aspx

[kurtz]

Caption this picture of Bush and Putin meeting this morning at the Olympic's in China ... I can't tell what they are saying.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

Bush,"Okay, you can have Georgia but stay out of Alabama they're republicans"

[Type941]

reading the NYT latest report, seemingly the Russian army is pressing now on ground into Gori, which is already in Georgia. apparently Georgian military has dug in tanks and is sustaining heavy artillery fire. I can't believe I'm even reading this and it isn't Tom Clancy, let alone all of this unfolding in front of the world watching.

The exchange between Russia and US in the council was pretty good, and I hope the language and condemnation of Russia gets much much more vocal that it has been. It really needs to be shamed into what it's doing.

Also it looks by what Russia done thus far, that there was a decision made to remove Saakashvili and army is gonna press into Tbilisi. IF that really does happen you have to wonder where this will end. If you assume Nato or US unilaterally getting involved - and invoking ALL sort of NATO clauses by going to WAR - the whole world is gonna change from now on, because Russia will start attacking on all fronts into Europe as well to prevent NATO deployment in Baltics, Poland, and there Germany isn't far off with big US airbases and wotnot. You guys, this can get ugly.

[Konovalov]

Anyone wanna volunteer to try out Russkies?
Or sure, we all here are brave VIRTUAL warriors.:arrgh!:

If something is organized im seriously considering, im single, fit and trained.
Sounds like the Arabs catching a flight to Pakistan and then jumping over the border into Afghanistan to fight the Soviets during the 1980's. :hmm:

[AntEater]

I would away confirmation from other sources on that, I suppose this is georgian wishful thinking.
From german reporters in Ossetia, it would seem that russian forces took up defensive positions around Tzinzvali, and the only offensive objectives yet to accomplish are individual positions, most likely some dominating hills without South Ossetia.
And this german reporter was hardly a russian propagandist, since the russians denied him a satelite channel and he had to report via telephone.
Keep in mind that while Russia overall is a superior power, the actual number of troops in south Ossetia is most likely still around 10.000, while Georgia should have much more men under arms. Also, it is one thing to make a counterattack against a force that just occupied actually friendly territory, another thing is to make a full scale invasion into a mountainous country with a hostile population.
The entire push into south Ossetia consisted of two armoured battalions reinforced by mechanized infantry, two regimental combat teams in US parlance (or Kampfgruppen in German). That was maybe enough for the initial counterattack, but hardly enough for a sustained offensive into Georgia proper. Also, the entire supply for all russian forces runs through a single two lane tunnel.
The russians did fly in parts of an airborne division to Vladikavkaz, but those have to use the same routes as well to get to Ossetia, also Paratroopers are only equipped with BMDs and light artillery, not main battle tanks.
There's apparently only one good road in Ossetia, which has turned into the world's longest military traffic jam.
The whole "David vs. Goliath" thing might be realistic in the overall situation, but on the ground the forces are quite evenly matched. 58th Army's equipent is not really more modern than the georgian army's.
Of course Russia has absolute air supremacy, and in a modern conflict, this is what really counts.

[1480]

From ANS 09 08 08:

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Friday that Russian troops in South Ossetia must force Georgia into a cease fire and also protect civilians in the province, most of whose residents hold Russian passports.Russia Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov says some 1,500 people have been killed in fighting in Georgia's breakaway province of South Ossetia.

Breitbart 10 08 08:


A Russian raid on Gori near South Ossetia Saturday which apparently targeted a military base on the town's outskirts left numerous civilian casualties.

An Associated Press reporter who visited the town shortly after the strike saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.

Russian officials said they weren't targeting civilians, but Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia. He warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.

"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.
Saakashvili on Saturday proposed a cease-fire, but Russia said it wants Georgia to first pull its troops from South Ossetia and sign a pledge not to use force against the breakaway province.

Moringstar 10 08 08:

MOSCOW (AFP)--Russian peacekeeping forces are in control of most of the capital of Georgia's separatist region of South Ossetia, a Russian defense ministry spokesman said on Sunday.

Times of India 10 08 08:

A Russian general said Saturday that his troops had driven Georgian forces out Tskhinvali and were moving to push them away from heights overlooking the city.

But another Russian officer, Gen. Marat Kulakhmetov, said intensive fighting for the city continued overnight and in the morning.


var RN = new String (Math.random()); var RNS = RN.substring (2,11); b2 = ' '; if (doweshowbellyad==1) bellyad.innerHTML = b2;

Moringstar 10 08 08:

Abkhaz separatist leader Sergei Bagapsh said his territory's air force and artillery was conducting an operation to force out Georgian troops from the Kodori Gorge independently of Russia.

"We are conducting independent military actions, naturally coordinating them with peacekeeping forces in the conflict zone," he said at a press conference in the Abkhaz capital of Sukhumi on Sunday.

[heartc]

If you assume Nato or US unilaterally getting involved - and invoking ALL sort of NATO clauses by going to WAR - the whole world is gonna change from now on, because Russia will start attacking on all fronts into Europe as well to prevent NATO deployment in Baltics, Poland, and there Germany isn't far off with big US airbases and wotnot. You guys, this can get ugly.
Nothing of that is going to happen. Do you seriously think Russia is mad, or NATO? NATO will not at all get involved militarily in this. It's the long term implications that will hurt the NATO alliance as well as strain European unity (if there even is such a thing), and that's the goal of this crap. After that, the divide and conquer that came up several times in this thread may well be put into action.
The Russian bear woke up from its slumber, and now decided to move. A few months ago Putin made a statement that in the future Russia would assume a greater role in protecting humanitarian rights on the international arena. Back then I wondered just wtf that quite meant. I can watch it in the news now.

But there will be no sudden exchange of nukes now tomorrow. This thing will settle soon, when Russia decides enough of Georgia's infrastructure has been destroyed. I'm almost certain they will not move further into Georgia *now*, and if, only for a brief moment. Otherwise their whole fairy tale of a humanitarian intervention would collapse, so that even the fifth columns couldn't maintain that anymore.
They will keep their army sitting in SO. All bickering of the West to pull out will be totally in vain of course. It's their bridgehead. So after several weeks / months of talks, some foul compromise will be agreed on, probably through diplomatic lines with Germany. They will swallow up the rest of Georgia later on, after destabilizing the government there enough and probably coming up with another story. Who knows, they might keep patrolling there (who would stop them and shoot the first torp / missile at a Russian war ship, huh?) to ensure that the "criminal government of Georgia" cannot rearm itself and after a few months, they might find that Georgia has attacked one of their ships. They can do to Georgia whatever they want and no one will be able to stop it, they just cannot do that *now* or their story would die. Remember you also have to sell it to your home team. And they need to be able to press the West into the foul diplomatic settlement on *some* basis. Probably they move a bit further in, and their part of the "compromise" will then be to pull back into SO.

The only real scenario I can see for a further escalation right now is when the Ukraine indeed denies redocking of the Russian task force. Which is highly unlikely to happen though, because that would indeed give them a reason on a silver platter to move against the Ukraine. This is why the Ukraine carefully said it's going to bar the ships "unless the situation has been settled" which it likely will be at the time they return. Let's just hope none of the Russian ships has to return early for "maintenance reasons".

[AntEater]

While barring Sevastopol would be an affront, it wouldn't strand the russian task force:
They have Novorossisk, Tuapse, Sotchi and other Ports where they can affect repairs.
Also, the Ukrainians have to be careful with Crimea. This Island has 90% Russian population (the rest are crimean tartars and other ethnicities, I think true Ukrainians are the rarest of all in Crimea), as it is originally russian, given to Ukraine by Khrushew (a Ukrainian) in 1955.
They will be careful not to piss them off more than they need.
This illustrates quite well the problem with the division of the post soviet republics.
As federalism in the USSR was a sham, you could divide territories between the republics quite arbitrarily. In the end, regions ended up where nobody expected them to belong to.

[heartc]

While barring Sevastopol would be an affront, it wouldn't strand the russian task force:
They have Novorossisk, Tuapse, Sotchi and other Ports where they can affect repairs.


Though for some reason I'm pretty sure the Russians will want to dock at Sevastopol. And ONLY at Sevastopol. However, as I said, I think escalation there unlikely. For now.

[AntEater]

Just had a Skype conversation:
My two friends are safe. David isnt' called up as he has no prior military service, and Nana is in Tbilisi as well.
phew....
:sunny:

[Type941]

what hartc said is probably gonna happen. Bye Bye independent Georgia, hello pussy whipped EU, NATO and USA. And gawd forbid Germany gets involved and lose all its cozy backhanded deals with Russia. Oh no. that would be really bad outcome for the germans.

you should see what the russians themselves writing about this war in commentary. It's along the lines of 'wtf are we in war for these fackin osetia people?! They come here to russia, trade, dont pay taxes, everywhere you go they are, think they are better than as and now we have to sand military to protect them? fack it, let them fight. this is crap!'. I read messages like that again and again and again... this is for the domesic market argument. I really don't think the russian people want ANOTHER war in caucases. they can only manage chechnya because they put an old enemy in charge and paid him enough to be loyal. Georgia probably hates the russians so much that they will easily be as tough to handle (there is a lot of them too).

anyway, west should protect Georgia now and stop Russia. Sadly - there is no strong leader like Kennedy or Reigan on the West who can stand up for any value West advocates. Sarkozy is nothing, Merkel is between a rock and a hard place, Brown is as useless as Blair and Bush is irrelavant while Berlusconi is a best bud of Putin. Poland is big but noone cares to listen, and has somewhat controvercial leader, and Baltics are ignored in anything they say, while Sweden and Finland don't carry much weight in EU. You are right, it's all about Germany and if Germany decides it's too much - it can really change things, but Germany is in no position what so ever to tell anything to Russia (since Russia attacked Germany in WW2 and has such difficult past noone will let it do anything militarily).

So once again, bye bye Georgia.

Ukraine can escalate this, but if they do, we in Baltics will have to escalate this in return as well and this will put NATO and EU right in there and really test it. And if EU abandons Baltics - well, you can say that the whole pillar of European security is crumbled and will never be credible again. Russia would have won.

[AntEater]

Now Russians see how it is.
We westerners had to risk our troops for a bunch of pimps and drug dealers in Kosovo, now Russians have to fight for a bunch of pimps and drug dealers in Ossetia.
:rotfl:
Maybe Russian cities will get flooded by drugs from thankfully liberated Ossetians as Germany was from thankfully liberated Kosovarians.

[Skybird]

It seems Russia will not let Geogia getting off the hook so easily by just saying: "Okay, we take back our last move and then start new all over." It seems they want to score on the disputed issues decisively this time. the UN debate I overwatched a bit. Unimportant blahblah. Neither the Us nor the Eu is in a position to impose pressure or dictate conditions, both need Russia more than Russia needs them in return. Moscow knows that - so what.

Could it be that the Russians really meant it serious when announcing they wan to go after the responsible ones and held them responsible personally - which only could mean they want the head of Saakachvili? If so, just announcing a Georgian cease-fire is not pleasing enough for them indeed.

Saakachvili is a known hot-head, and I think he is an overactive idiotic dumbhead as well, out of contact with reality. He made promises to win the last election that he should have known were impossible to keep. He expected Western assistance for an adventure were mere reason should have told him he wouldn't get it. It was probably him directly ordering the attack two nights ago, right oin mark with the Olympic ceremonies. It seems the Russians will not stop without substantial mission objectives acchieved. these most likely include the head of Saakachvili. Maybe the Georgians should overthrow his government, hand him over, and offer guarantees for autonomy for both regions. That could save many of their people's lives. Without substantial wins in objectives and removing some basic trouble coming from Georgia, including known key personnell, the Russians probably will not stop now. And the longer it lasts, the more it becomes a question of survival for Georgia as a national entity with a functional economic and social structure. compared to the Russian firepower in total, the Russians have not even begun to unleash all they could - if only they want.

Georgia would be very well advised not to wait for that.

Do I like what I outline? Not really, it's a whole big ammount of mess, suffering and destruction. And for what...? Just for keeping Ossetia divided region and keeping a people hating Georgians under Georgian command!? I know that the russians would not listen to me anyway, so why should I polish over the grim reality. The russians seem to be determined to not fall back anymore in the face of Western demands. If it is like that, then Georgia either falls on its knees unconditionally and begs for mercy, or will be obliterated.

The question of wether or not Georgia will ever become a NATO member we can consider to be answered. But possible that some heads in Washington need some more time until the news hits their brains.

[Skybird]

Ukraine can escalate this, but if they do, we in Baltics will have to escalate this in return as well and this will put NATO and EU right in there and really test it. And if EU abandons Baltics - well, you can say that the whole pillar of European security is crumbled and will never be credible again. Russia would have won.
I am not aware of the Baltics having the military or otherwise capacity to "escalate". anyway, this will not turn into a hot shooting war between NATO and Russian soldiers - if that is what you are waiting for, then your life has found a new mission. europe and america have better things to do than to defcon-one with the Russians over some Russian backyard. Maybe it hurts your ego if I put it that frankly and minimize Georgia's or the Baltic's importance. But the simple fact is that I speak the truth. Georgia has much more importance for Russia, than it has for the West. and Brussel will whistle back any attempt by the Baltic states to "escalate" on behalf of NATO.

[Raptor1]

World War I started over this sort of minor conflict, but yeah, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to escalate this

[Happy Times]

Ukraine can escalate this, but if they do, we in Baltics will have to escalate this in return as well and this will put NATO and EU right in there and really test it. And if EU abandons Baltics - well, you can say that the whole pillar of European security is crumbled and will never be credible again. Russia would have won.
I am not aware of the Baltics having the military or otherwise capacity to "escalate". anyway, this will not turn into a hot shooting war between NATO and Russian soldiers - if that is what you are waiting for, then your life has found a new mission. europe and america have better things to do than to defcon-one with the Russians over some Russian backyard. Maybe it hurts your ego if I put it that frankly and minimize Georgia's or the Baltic's importance. But the simple fact is that I speak the truth. Georgia has much more importance for Russia, than it has for the West. and Brussel will whistle back any attempt by the Baltic states to "escalate" on behalf of NATO.

If our countries are worthless we should really start building a nuclear deterrent.

[Jimbuna]

World War I started over this sort of minor conflict, but yeah, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to escalate this

Let us all hope and pray this is the case

[Happy Times]

World War I started over this sort of minor conflict, but yeah, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to escalate this

It isnt a minor conflict for Georgia.

[AntEater]

Funny is that the Town of Gori, scene of the russian bombing attack on Saturday and now apparently under russian artillery fire is the birthplace of no one else but Joseph Djugazvili, better known as Joseph Stalin.
And it still sports a huge stalin memorial on the town square.
:damn::rotfl:

[Raptor1]

World War I started over this sort of minor conflict, but yeah, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to escalate this
It isnt a minor conflict for Georgia.

I bet it wasn't a minor conflict for Serbia in 1914 either

[Skybird]

Ukraine can escalate this, but if they do, we in Baltics will have to escalate this in return as well and this will put NATO and EU right in there and really test it. And if EU abandons Baltics - well, you can say that the whole pillar of European security is crumbled and will never be credible again. Russia would have won.
I am not aware of the Baltics having the military or otherwise capacity to "escalate". anyway, this will not turn into a hot shooting war between NATO and Russian soldiers - if that is what you are waiting for, then your life has found a new mission. europe and america have better things to do than to defcon-one with the Russians over some Russian backyard. Maybe it hurts your ego if I put it that frankly and minimize Georgia's or the Baltic's importance. But the simple fact is that I speak the truth. Georgia has much more importance for Russia, than it has for the West. and Brussel will whistle back any attempt by the Baltic states to "escalate" on behalf of NATO.

If our countries are worthless we should really start building a nuclear deterrent.

"Our countries"? First it was about Georgia. then somebody brought in the Baltics. you since long have added Finland. And I am left wondering why this is so. this is some head-bashing in some Russian backyard, more it is not, by all reason. It is not World War III. You need a nuclear deterrant? what do you have over there that anyone wants so desperately...? ;)
Man , your irrationaL hate on everything russian really kicks you head-first into a black dark tunnel. Get out there, or you spend your life like Diogenes in his barrel. See, I am not full of sympathy for Russia. It'S just that I look beyond the perspective of the West, and that I can see america's special interests, europe'S special interests - and Russia's interests as well. Most of these interest have nothing to do with the immediate interests of Georgia. that may not be fair from a historical point of view, but that'S how it is and earth will not stop spinning because Georgia is what it is. in the end, nobody in this story has clean hands. not the Russians. Not the Ossetians.not the Georgians. and not NATO and the Americans as well. We allowed Georgia to believe they could afford their provocations. we allowed them to believe they were more improtant to us than they are. We encouraged false assumptions of theirs. We shouldn't have done that. If you still ask why we should not try to bring the Caucasian region or the Ukraine into NATO, just imagine how the US would react if Russia would bring Canada under russian influence and into military alliance with Russia. No chance the US would accept that. They would run amok, if needed.

[Skybird]

World War I started over this sort of minor conflict, but yeah, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to escalate this

It isnt a minor conflict for Georgia.
see where their attempt to escalate but evade the penalty has led them.

With cards like theirs, you do not play the bully of the block and try to provo0ke a superior bigger neighbour - you play your hand cautiously and friendly. That is wise. even KungTse and LaoTse said so. ;)

[1480]

Skybird: hang on a second! Making a blanket statement that it was the West's fault for Georgia putting itself in the position that it is, is ludicris. Can you back this up by factual evidence? Supposition does not make a court case.

You try to support the russian's actions because of a nonexistant threat to their national security theory. Even better, broadly proclaiming what the US would do if Canada became a ally with russia. Did you forget about Cuba? 330 miles or 612 km's away..... which is a lot closer threat then Russia is to Germany.

[baggygreen]

Skybird: hang on a second! Making a blanket statement that it was the West's fault for Georgia putting itself in the position that it is, is ludicris. Can you back this up by factual evidence? Supposition does not make a court case.

You try to support the russian's actions because of a nonexistant threat to their national security theory. Even better, broadly proclaiming what the US would do if Canada became a ally with russia. Did you forget about Cuba? 330 miles or 612 km's away..... which is a lot closer threat then Russia is to Germany.I must've interpreted his post diffferently to you 1480, it was my impression sky was saying noone is free from responsibility in this instance which is true. Remember I said earlier that the russians are paranoid because NATO keeps expanding, rather than diminishing following the end of the cold war. To their eyes it is an alliance aimed against them. To their eyes, the potential national security thereat is real.

Now remember that I think russia are completely in the wrong in this instance, every nation loses peacekeepers in a warzone. take for instance France in Chad, they were bombed and a proportionate response was to destroy the 4 planes of Chad's air force. they didnt invade, start bombing all over the country, etc... Russia are using disproportionate force, and like i said, they're being opportunistic. What I tried to do and i think what sky is tryng to do is look deeper into their motives.

[Kapitan]

Funny is that the Town of Gori, scene of the russian bombing attack on Saturday and now apparently under russian artillery fire is the birthplace of no one else but Joseph Djugazvili, better known as Joseph Stalin.
And it still sports a huge stalin memorial on the town square.
:damn::rotfl:

I would hate to be an artillery gunner in the thick of it right now could you immagine your CO busting his balls when the airforce reports "You got the tower block good oh yeah and the statue" you wouldnt ever sit down your CO would boot you that hard in the a$$ !

[Airmail]

:lost: reports of chechen rebels making attacks on Russian convoys according to a mate in the Ukraine. This could get really nasty if Chechen rebels get involved. Guerilla attacks on the main Russian convoy out of the tunnel could prove a real problem, resulting in high casualties as the convoy is practically gridlocked in places. Im betting the Georgians would be quite pleased if the Chechens drove one of their usual 10,000 pound truck bombs up next to that convoy. (remember this...http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=669_1184182183)

This article is....interesting in that light http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2374159

If the Georgians had cut off that tunnel things would be fairing a lot better for them.

On another note I just saw BBC footage of a Russian SU-25 banking, picking out the BBC camera crew/civilian cars and rocketing them. Missing the BBC camera crew by a couple of metres. Compare that to US videos where they spend time IDing who the people are before they engage. Peace keepers? Yeah right

[Happy Times]

World War I started over this sort of minor conflict, but yeah, I don't think anyone is stupid enough to escalate this

It isnt a minor conflict for Georgia.
see where their attempt to escalate but evade the penalty has led them.

With cards like theirs, you do not play the bully of the block and try to provo0ke a superior bigger neighbour - you play your hand cautiously and friendly. That is wise. even KungTse and LaoTse said so. ;)

We have to agree to disagree on who started it, the facts is that the russians shelled for weeks to get them to move into Ossetia. It was a trap.

[1480]

Skybird: hang on a second! Making a blanket statement that it was the West's fault for Georgia putting itself in the position that it is, is ludicris. Can you back this up by factual evidence? Supposition does not make a court case.

You try to support the russian's actions because of a nonexistant threat to their national security theory. Even better, broadly proclaiming what the US would do if Canada became a ally with russia. Did you forget about Cuba? 330 miles or 612 km's away..... which is a lot closer threat then Russia is to Germany.I must've interpreted his post diffferently to you 1480, it was my impression sky was saying noone is free from responsibility in this instance which is true. Remember I said earlier that the russians are paranoid because NATO keeps expanding, rather than diminishing following the end of the cold war. To their eyes it is an alliance aimed against them. To their eyes, the potential national security thereat is real.

Now remember that I think russia are completely in the wrong in this instance, every nation loses peacekeepers in a warzone. take for instance France in Chad, they were bombed and a proportionate response was to destroy the 4 planes of Chad's air force. they didnt invade, start bombing all over the country, etc... Russia are using disproportionate force, and like i said, they're being opportunistic. What I tried to do and i think what sky is tryng to do is look deeper into their motives.

Maybe I did read it wrong, but from earlier posts and what I interpret from that last post is that we (the West) were enablers for Georgia. I would like to see someone link a story that confirms this, other then what I've read in Pravada, which is about as credible as the world weekly news.... (the infamous batboy paper)

Believe me, I understand that russia has concerns but the chances of nato rolling through Moscow, is the same as Cuba taking over Miami. They know it just as well as we do, yet use this as an excuse for the land grab.


Many use Kosovo as an example of what not to do, yet no one says anything about Chechnaya. I think this current problem is a lot closer to the latter.

It boils down to this, as I've said before: if you denounce a country for what you perceive as an illegal action, denounce the next, when they do the same. I know it's a bit much to ask for, but a little consistency is good for my hypertension.:rock:

[Happy Times]

Ukraine can escalate this, but if they do, we in Baltics will have to escalate this in return as well and this will put NATO and EU right in there and really test it. And if EU abandons Baltics - well, you can say that the whole pillar of European security is crumbled and will never be credible again. Russia would have won.
I am not aware of the Baltics having the military or otherwise capacity to "escalate". anyway, this will not turn into a hot shooting war between NATO and Russian soldiers - if that is what you are waiting for, then your life has found a new mission. europe and america have better things to do than to defcon-one with the Russians over some Russian backyard. Maybe it hurts your ego if I put it that frankly and minimize Georgia's or the Baltic's importance. But the simple fact is that I speak the truth. Georgia has much more importance for Russia, than it has for the West. and Brussel will whistle back any attempt by the Baltic states to "escalate" on behalf of NATO.

If our countries are worthless we should really start building a nuclear deterrent.

"Our countries"? First it was about Georgia. then somebody brought in the Baltics. you since long have added Finland. And I am left wondering why this is so. this is some head-bashing in some Russian backyard, more it is not, by all reason. It is not World War III. You need a nuclear deterrant? what do you have over there that anyone wants so desperately...? ;)
Man , your irrationaL hate on everything russian really kicks you head-first into a black dark tunnel. Get out there, or you spend your life like Diogenes in his barrel. See, I am not full of sympathy for Russia. It'S just that I look beyond the perspective of the West, and that I can see america's special interests, europe'S special interests - and Russia's interests as well. Most of these interest have nothing to do with the immediate interests of Georgia. that may not be fair from a historical point of view, but that'S how it is and earth will not stop spinning because Georgia is what it is. in the end, nobody in this story has clean hands. not the Russians. Not the Ossetians.not the Georgians. and not NATO and the Americans as well. We allowed Georgia to believe they could afford their provocations. we allowed them to believe they were more improtant to us than they are. We encouraged false assumptions of theirs. We shouldn't have done that. If you still ask why we should not try to bring the Caucasian region or the Ukraine into NATO, just imagine how the US would react if Russia would bring Canada under russian influence and into military alliance with Russia. No chance the US would accept that. They would run amok, if needed.

Russians have classed all these countries in the same category, they seek to influence their internal and foreign policy in a way that doesnt respect their sovereignty.
Im having doubts of the solidarity of EU and Nato to really protect all member states, seems that nuclear deterrent is the only one that works. I wont accept that it is Russias right in anyway to decide who their neighbour countries should have as head of states. The methods have gotten harder year by year, i will never tolerate this FSB mobs manipulation and intimidation. .

[NefariousKoel]

Well...

I had a feeling Skybird would be up to his usual defense of some ruthless, underhanded regime but I had to come see for myself.

Of course, it's all the West's Democracies fault in the first place, so we should be good surrender-monkeys and just let the Russians take what they want as long as it doesn't affect us. Right? :roll:

[joegrundman]

Well...

I had a feeling Skybird would be up to his usual defense of some ruthless, underhanded regime but I had to come see for myself.

Of course, it's all the West's Democracies fault in the first place, so we should be good surrender-monkeys and just let the Russians take what they want as long as it doesn't affect us. Right? :roll:
except of course that's not what he's saying

[NefariousKoel]

Well...

I had a feeling Skybird would be up to his usual defense of some ruthless, underhanded regime but I had to come see for myself.

Of course, it's all the West's Democracies fault in the first place, so we should be good surrender-monkeys and just let the Russians take what they want as long as it doesn't affect us. Right? :roll:
except of course that's not what he's saying

Sure it is:

NATO provoked Russia with it's expansionism
Georgia should've just shut up & been a good little client state
Russia is just doing what it should be doing.

:lol:

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

Germany experienced that firsthand when the other Kascinsky (...)

OT. Regardless what you're thinking of him, his name is Kaczynski and nothing else. I suppose it's not that complicated to copy and paste it from google? I don't think you would be impressed if someone called the Chancellor of Germany Ferkel or Mekerl?
greets

and Happy Times, it's really a pleasure to read your posts, thank you for sorting this things out!

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Skybird: hang on a second! Making a blanket statement that it was the West's fault for Georgia putting itself in the position that it is, is ludicris. Can you back this up by factual evidence? Supposition does not make a court case.

You try to support the russian's actions because of a nonexistant threat to their national security theory. Even better, broadly proclaiming what the US would do if Canada became a ally with russia. Did you forget about Cuba? 330 miles or 612 km's away..... which is a lot closer threat then Russia is to Germany.

Then what WAS the Bay of Pigs thing. Or how about the whole Cuban Missile Crisis, which can be stated to be the US saying it is OK for them to use missiles to threaten the Soviet Union (including placing them in Turkey, and later on subs) but not for the Soviet Union to place missiles on their newfound ally's soil to threaten America. Might won them the day, but from a "right" angle...

And Cuba is a poor base to attack America, other than with IRBMs. The Baltics, Ukraine ... etc are great staging places to hit Russia in comparison - the only question is Will, and Will can be changed relatively easily.

[Skybird]

Skybird: hang on a second! Making a blanket statement that it was the West's fault for Georgia putting itself in the position that it is, is ludicris. Can you back this up by factual evidence? Supposition does not make a court case.
Read more carefully what I said. I said the West shares part of the responsibility by having fostered false expectations in the Georgians.

You try to support the russian's actions
Neither do I support nor do I not support them - I describe them and explain the motivation behind them, and where it comes from, and show them as what they are., actions with a goaol, and a motivation, and a cause.

because of a nonexistant threat to their national security theory.
Who says so!? The problem of you and others in this thread is that you are totally unwilling or unable to see events of the past 15 years from any other perspective than your very own. You already have defined how to see the world, and no other view is possible, you say. That you think it is not threatening for Russians if NATO sneaks upon their borders does not mean that they do not see it differently, for several reasons. And when you want to analyse their future reaciton, then it is important that you do not base on what you from your own perspective think they should do, but that you see it from their perspective. As long as you see it from a Western viewpoint, their actions do not make sense and seem exaggerated - beasue they do not carry out goals and objectives of NATO foreign pllicy and US foreign policy. When you see it from their side, it all of a sudden all makes sense.

In other words: you do not understand your opponent.

Even better, broadly proclaiming what the US would do if Canada became a ally with russia. Did you forget about Cuba?
Nice that suddenly you see the problem yourself now, or have you caught yourself in too fast typing? ;) . The Us did not tolerate the Cuba adventure, you are right - but the Russians are expected to tolerate eventually a NATO adventure of Ukraine and Georgia? After the missile shield, and according sensors and radars and missiles in Poland and Czech Republic? After broken promises to Yeltsin that the former WP states would not one by one be picked up by NATO, and NATO would not sneak püon russias borders? US beachheads in the southern states to Russia that were former USSR provinces? Russia, if you look on a map, practically encircled by a string of US tripwire bases and listening posts? Their slavic ties on the Balkans several times being minimised in western attention? Kosovo? And a private word: beware the man with a hurt pride. the Russian had swallowed a lot.

This debate here is seriously suffering from people not watching beyond their own subjective horizon. What you think the Russians should think in conformity with your goals is not important. what they really think all by themselves, and what is really of interest for them from their perspective (economically, strategically, nationally) - this is what you need to understand and take into account, else oyu never adress Russia with your thinling, but just your own porivate imagination: and then complaining that your recipes for a better world don't match reality. The Caucasian war shows that the Russians have been pushed one time too often. After almost 20 years. Finally. In the end. And they warned of it, several times. The West, drunken from itself, was laughging and did not take them serious. Now you see.

Why is nobody laughing anymore?

[Skybird]

[quote=1480] What I tried to do and i think what sky is tryng to do is look deeper into their motives.
And I appreciate your effort, although you and me come to different conclusions, and probably differ in our expectations.

[Skybird]

Germany experienced that firsthand when the other Kascinsky (...)

OT. Regardless what you're thinking of him, his name is Kaczynski and nothing else. I suppose it's not that complicated to copy and paste it from google? I don't think you would be impressed if someone called the Chancellor of Germany Ferkel or Mekerl?

Polish press has called her and depicted her as something much worse. Repeatedly. ;) I do not take typos of german names queer as long as they are typos indeed. Which is the case with Kazcynski's name as well. I'm sure I have mistypoed it in the past, too. The spelling of slavic names with these C-Z- combinations gives us Germans a hard time at times.

[Skybird]

Skybird: hang on a second! Making a blanket statement that it was the West's fault for Georgia putting itself in the position that it is, is ludicris. Can you back this up by factual evidence? Supposition does not make a court case.

You try to support the russian's actions because of a nonexistant threat to their national security theory. Even better, broadly proclaiming what the US would do if Canada became a ally with russia. Did you forget about Cuba? 330 miles or 612 km's away..... which is a lot closer threat then Russia is to Germany.

Then what WAS the Bay of Pigs thing. Or how about the whole Cuban Missile Crisis, which can be stated to be the US saying it is OK for them to use missiles to threaten the Soviet Union (including placing them in Turkey, and later on subs) but not for the Soviet Union to place missiles on their newfound ally's soil to threaten America. Might won them the day, but from a "right" angle...

And Cuba is a poor base to attack America, other than with IRBMs. The Baltics, Ukraine ... etc are great staging places to hit Russia in comparison - the only question is Will, and Will can be changed relatively easily.

I think it is more about more subtle things like ELINT, radar, intel, general political influence radiating beyond the border (trade, private traffic). empires do not end and to not start at lines in the sand. they have a centre, a periphery, and a border area where they fade out, and other empires fade in.

OPlus: it is a deeply wounded natinal ego. Before you laugh, you better take that seriously. and if you do not understand it, just look at the extremes American patriotism sometimes is spiking. You better take it as a serious motivational factor. It is irrational, but nevertheless a reality.

[bookworm_020]

The whole "David vs. Goliath" thing might be realistic in the overall situation

Intresting that you mention David and Goliath

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24158009-26040,00.html

[Skybird]

The whole "David vs. Goliath" thing might be realistic in the overall situation

Intresting that you mention David and Goliath

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24158009-26040,00.html
Very good article . It describes almost perfectly how I see the situation, and how it emerged.

What kind of press is "The Australian"? Oriented to the left, centre, right? Just curious - the quality of this article is not altered by their usual political bias.

[baggygreen]

I personally think they're a little to the left, but they are by and large one of the better news outlets down under. In fact, I'd almost say they're the least biased down here, the other papers I read slant very much to one side of the spectrum.

That was a good, well put together article. nice find mate!!

And sky, while our conclusions might be different, i think our expectations aren't so far apart. Different roads leading to the same village

EDIT - the only thing i dont like about it is the assertion that georgia was responsible. I'm still not convinced by it.

[Jimbuna]

The whole "David vs. Goliath" thing might be realistic in the overall situation

Intresting that you mention David and Goliath

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24158009-26040,00.html

Great article....one of the best I've read thus far about this sad situation.

It actually reminds me of some of the reports I am watching on my home tv from the BBC.

I fear there will be no winners when all this madness ends, but only losers.

It is obvious from where I'm sitting that whatever the final outcome, memories and mistrust will continue to abound for a very long time.

[moose1am]

G. W. does not look too happy, but who is the guy with the press passes hanging around his neck and that hideous shirt? He looks like he just got on a plane outbound from Hawaii.

Russia is taking advantage of the US Troops being tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US armed forces are spread too thin and are in no position to respond to this attack by Russia.

And with the US Presidential Elections coming up in Nov we are only a few months away from the elections. Mean while we have a lame duck President who's to dumb to know what's happening.

US is courting the Georgians but I am not sure if they are a NATO member yet or not? If they are a member of NATO then that means that NATO should come to their aid. But the US is tied up now and not in a good position to start another war.

Beside the US is afraid to start a war with a country that already possess nuclear weapons. We only pick on the little guys that can't defend themselves!

Should the US Pull forces out of Iraq to send to Georgia?



Caption this picture of Bush and Putin meeting this morning at the Olympic's in China ... I can't tell what they are saying.

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/world/gallery/2008/aug/08/russia.georgia/GD8287789@U-4454.jpg

[Skybird]

Are you kidding?

[moose1am]

This makes more sense to me that what the others said. If the Russians had training going on near the boarder and were ready to strike that tells me and anyone with some intelligence that the Russians were staging this war.

And Putin is bragging about how he wants to revise the Russian Military. The Russians have been flying Patrols though or near NATO areas and are trying to expand into the Arctic and the Mediterranean sea as well. They have publically exclaimed that they want to have a bigger presence in the world's ocean. They want to be like the old Soviet Union of past. And if the US is tied up in their Iraqi Invasion we can't attack Russian militarily or verbally without being hypocritical.

The US can't invade a sovereign country and then criticize Russia for doing the same thing. Russia invading Georgia would be like the US invading the Northern Part of Mexico along the TX boarder. But we have sent our troops, ships and planes thousands of miles overseas to invade the middle east for their oil.

But I would hope that NATO send in troops to help Georgia and to make Russia Back off.

I wonder what Insane McCain would do in a situation like this one? Well if you elect him in Nov you will find out in January. This war in Georgia may still be raging only into other former Soviet Union Provinces.



Skybird, I agree that they caught the civilians by surprise but I disagree that Georgia is to blame for all of this. If you look at the run up, I think its Russia's doing. military "exercises" all across the boarder? separatist forces taking pot shots at Georgia hoping for a response? Remember that there have been calls for a truce and negotiations from Georgia prior to this fighting, those calls went unanswered. Russia has been planning to take over Georgia from the beginning, not just for gaining territory but to get rid of a pro-west regime and to take control of the energy resources in the south. Why would Georgia want to pick a fight with Russia now anyway? They know they cant win a war, they are trying to protect their own interests against an aggressive, expansionist super power on their doorstep. The Russian media spin is also working perfectly, making out the Georgians to be the nasty aggressive people who sparked this conflict. They even accused Georgia of "ethnic-cleansing" for **** sake, I mean come on! What kind of bull**** is that?! To think that Russia has no personal agenda to fulfill in this war is very naive!

[Type941]

Skybird, i was gonna reply to you but i realized you are a VERY scared man. Scared very much of Russia. It's good thing that USA back in the end of war decided to get involved and save whatever was left of Germany and help rebuild that country and avert 3WW. It would have been so easy to let the Russians take it all. It's good that back than some people had priorities straight and were not afraid to stand up to Russian terror managed by its dictator.

But ok, let's all keep watching and eating popcorn while Russian army is ENFORCING peace. That's the RIGHT thing to do, isn't it bud? It's safe at least. Who cares about Georgia, it's just some Russian backyard.

All i will say is result of this is already clear: Georgia as Independent Nation RIP 08.08.08. A expect a puppet governent there soon, Saakashivili under Russian fair court system in jail and Putin having another little personl triumph because make no mistake about it - he very much HATES the guy who called him Liliputin (midget man basically) and will do whatever it takes to crush him. You deal with this guy, just remember that. And Estonia - his dad or grand dad, don't remember, was captured by Germans in estonia while he was doing some work for CHEKA or KGB - whatever it was called - he survived the prisonment, but you can imagine what he wants to do to 'repay the debt' to fascist modern estonia as well.
I'm sorry ifyou are ignorant and unware of what is happeneing here, I know you must be tired to lead EU and be driving force of EU economy but no single country is able to survive in isolation, never have, never will. It's important to keep this in mind.




And since you asked what i kind of expect - i expect EU and NATO and USA to send a ton of AA guns to georgia to allow them to shoot down every single facking aircraft that is molesting their airspace. At least that would be a start!

[goldorak]

Georgia is NOT a member of NATO, and neither is Ucraine.
Thankfully from time to time our european leaders have a spray of intelligence left in them. ;)

[moose1am]

History has a way of repeating itself. Looking at the past is a good way to predict what people will do in the future!

Emotions are based on past history and are not always a bad thing!

Russia's leaders have stated publically that they want to build Russia back up to the way it was in the past. More Bear Patrols over the Atlantic Ocean. More Russian submarines going to sea armed with Nuclear Missiles, more Russian Surface Ships in the Med. And Russia is talking about building 7 new Air Craft Carriers to patrol the Blue Water Oceans.

That does not sound like Détente (sp?) to me!



The past of Poland regarding Russia, as well as your emotions carry you away. That way you do not decide by reason yourself, but get decided by your sentiments.