SSK Hunting

[SandyCaesar]

So there I was in my FFG-7, TA extended, all-ahead-1/3. My mission is the impossible: Kilo hunting. Kind of like bear hunting with an iPod in your ear and two-way mirrored glasses on your eyes, wearing a reflective vest. :nope: Yeah, there's always the helo, but can't the FFG localize it on its own?

Or, same thing with an Orion. No disrespect to Molon Labe and the rest of the aerial warriors, but seriously: how the hell are you supposed to pick up a black hole in the water with DIFARs and VLADs? Unless you can put an active buoy right on top of him, I've just experienced lots and lots of frustration. Case in point: testing out my VLADs, I used the Truth picture to drop a VLAD right on top of a creeping (3 knots) 636-Kilo, deep water, no layer. And absolutely nothing shows up on the screen. (Needless to say: DW 1-04, LwAmi 3-08, etc.)

Could anyone please give me some hints on hunting the bastards? And while we're at it, would someone explain how to use the frigate's towed array? Maybe it means something for you DW vets, but I just see a bunch of orange blobs and numbers that might as well be Martian for all I understand.

[OneShot]

As for hunting a Kilo with an Orion ... its definitly possible (as a lot of Kilo drivers who played with me can assure you .. hehe). However its not easy - far from it. Doing it passive is next to impossible unless you have defined area where to look or you know where its heading. Even then its challenging ... you hardly wont get more then one line in the directional mode and your best friend then is first the MAD and second once you have a handle on the sub your DICASS (well placed). Plan B so to speak is to drop a barrier using Shallow and Deep DICASS buoys and then ping the hell out of them. If you spacing is good then next to nothing should escape your barrier (given that the Kilo is close or even in it. Take note that once you ping an AI sub it will most likely change course and thus might drive around your barrier.

I guess I have to look into this closer for the next edition of the Airborne Ops Manual.

[SeaQueen]

Yeah, there's always the helo, but can't the FFG localize it on its own?

Yeah... kinda. The DDGs with the 53C can do it a little bit better than you. In light of that, I tend to think of FFGs as helicopter carriers for the AEGIS ships. Surface ASW in general is very difficult.

Or, same thing with an Orion. No disrespect to Molon Labe and the rest of the aerial warriors, but seriously: how the hell are you supposed to pick up a black hole in the water with DIFARs and VLADs?

I don't really bother with them. Active and non-acoustics (MAD, radar, eyeballs) is the way to go against a quiet target. My experience is that you're more likely to actually SEE the target's sail breach the surface or the periscope than you are to detect him passively, particularly in a realistically sized area. In DW, active sonar means DICASS buoys and lots of them. In real life, you might also have the EER buoys discussed in another thread, but modeling the acoustics of them is harder than I suspect DW can manage.

Maybe someday when I make my own naval combat simulator we'll have bistatics.

[Molon Labe]

Or, same thing with an Orion. No disrespect to Molon Labe and the rest of the aerial warriors, but seriously: how the hell are you supposed to pick up a black hole in the water with DIFARs and VLADs? Unless you can put an active buoy right on top of him, I've just experienced lots and lots of frustration. Case in point: testing out my VLADs, I used the Truth picture to drop a VLAD right on top of a creeping (3 knots) 636-Kilo, deep water, no layer. And absolutely nothing shows up on the screen. (Needless to say: DW 1-04, LwAmi 3-08, etc.)
An improved Kilo at 3 knots should be virtually undetectable by passive means, especially in a bottom limited SSP. That's the only thing it's got going for it. I mean hell, he's going to have to move to accomplish his mission; don't you think it would be a little too easy if you could find him even when he's practically stopped? Just remember it has to get within about 3-6nm for its torpedoes to be effective, so if you know what its target is going to be, you don't have to search that much ocean. And active sensors are your friend.

Passive detection is mostly useful against nukes and against Kilos at transit speeds, and that's in good SSP/bottom type combinations. If you have to deal with a BL SSP in sand or mud, you have to accept that the area you can effectively search is going to be on the small side. Make a tactical choice about where to defend, space the buoys super-tight, and supplement your coverage with MAD runs.

Oh and yeah, you're unlikely to ever pick up an Improved Kilo on the TACTASS. If you do, chances are he's already in firing position on the ships you're protecting. Again, active is your friend, you can tag him out to 10nm if he's not keeping you on the nose. And helos are the FFGs main ASW sensor and weapon.

[SandyCaesar]

All right. Lots of nice advice here, thanks a lot.

So, in an aircraft it boils down to getting lucky with methodically placed active buoy fields supplemented with MAD. I don't have enough GRAMs to keep track of all the buoys, but I suppose the computer the can do that?

It's the frigate that worries me. Once again, it boils down to its active sonar, right? That, and its MH-60. The thing is, there are several cases where I could hear the echo off a submarine, but not see it on the screen. My guess is that it's either far away or at an unfavorable aspect. In either case, all I know is that there's a sub out there somewhere--I can't tag what doesn't show up on the screen, and the helo can't prosecute what I don't tell him. But the idea of running around like a torchbearer, pinging madly, screaming the equivalent of "Here I am! Torpedo me!" has never really appealed to me. The SSK--if it doesn't send a USET-80 or a 53-65K down my throat--would either steer around me or duck beneath a layer.

Case in point: "Holddown Exercise" from Bill Nichols' Red Storm Rising campaign. I performed marginally against the Foxtrots, but at least once I've gotten a general direction I have a helo to help. Against that Kilo: I don't know anything about him, so there was no way I could've chased him. It's frustrating having to run in circles looking for a ghost while the captain of said ghost is probably laughing his head off and polishing his TMA solution at me.

Maybe I could track in on his laughter, if nothing else.

[Pisces]

All right. Lots of nice advice here, thanks a lot.

So, in an aircraft it boils down to getting lucky with methodically placed active buoy fields supplemented with MAD. I don't have enough GRAMs to keep track of all the buoys, but I suppose the computer the can do that?Buoys that have detected something show up with red dots on the map. (in propper DW-terminology "they went HOT") To see those red dots they do not have to be selected in a gram. IE, in one of those P3 training missions I droped dozens of buoys to make 2 fine-mazed large grids. Only when I found a red dot did I pull them up into a gram and investigate further.

As for FFG active sonar. You can use the single beam mode to determine the general bearing of your 'invisible'-ping. Then perhaps send a helo along that bearing doing MAD searches. Or maneuvering around the contact along a max range circle to try to get a better aspect on it. But he's probably going to change course quicker than you getting a better angle on him by proceding 90 degrees along the circle. But atleast it provides a search datum for your helo, where the old and new bearing cross. Unfortunately we can't draw lines on the map. :damn: :damn:

p.s. You can determine the general distance as well, listen for WHEN the ping comes, and place the marker there in the updated return noise to read distance. Hmm... Then a circle on the map for that distance, and 2 markers for the 20 degree beam (or was it 10? anyway, remember single beam mode works bow-relative instead of true bearing), and you almost have him pinned down.

[Molon Labe]

All right. Lots of nice advice here, thanks a lot.

So, in an aircraft it boils down to getting lucky with methodically placed active buoy fields supplemented with MAD. I don't have enough GRAMs to keep track of all the buoys, but I suppose the computer the can do that? Eh, luck only is a major factor if your buoys are spread out too much. It's more about being realistic about how much area you can search/secure given your target class, target speed, and the acoustic conditions. The smart money is always on the P-3 in a DW scenario (unless the pilot forgets the range of hostile SAM systems in the area..cough, Oneshot, cough cough) so you're not the one in need of luck.


It's the frigate that worries me. Once again, it boils down to its active sonar, right? That, and its MH-60. The thing is, there are several cases where I could hear the echo off a submarine, but not see it on the screen. My guess is that it's either far away or at an unfavorable aspect. In either case, all I know is that there's a sub out there somewhere--I can't tag what doesn't show up on the screen, and the helo can't prosecute what I don't tell him. Even if you haven't been able to tag him, the audio report tells you the range. You'll be able to tag him pretty quickly knowing that, and even if you don't, working the helo around that range will result in a dipping contact from a side aspect if he's bow aspect to you.


But the idea of running around like a torchbearer, pinging madly, screaming the equivalent of "Here I am! Torpedo me!" has never really appealed to me. The SSK--if it doesn't send a USET-80 or a 53-65K down my throat--would either steer around me or duck beneath a layer. The SSK is going to detect you and/or the ships you're protecting on passive sonar long before you hear him. You have nothing to lose by going active.


Case in point: "Holddown Exercise" from Bill Nichols' Red Storm Rising campaign. I performed marginally against the Foxtrots, but at least once I've gotten a general direction I have a helo to help. Against that Kilo: I don't know anything about him, so there was no way I could've chased him. It's frustrating having to run in circles looking for a ghost while the captain of said ghost is probably laughing his head off and polishing his TMA solution at me.

Maybe I could track in on his laughter, if nothing else.The RSR campaign is made for stock DW. Holddown Exercise is essentially scripted so that you detect the sub at mission start; but if you're using LWAMI and it's different detection ranges, the mission may not work as intended.

[Dr.Sid]

The fact you can hear the return but not see it is known bug and it applies on all active sonars in game. You simple never hear weaker return, it's always at 100%, or nothing (which means cross-layer or out of the range).

SeaQeuan: Bistatics (if it means different position for hydrophone and 'ping' source) are intended to be working in my sim. Generaly I plan it roughly like this: Pinger generates sound event .. it travels through the water and at some time it hits a target. Then reflected sound is generated on the target as new sound event, which travels using the same algorithm (except with different parameteres based on frequency and so on). Then this 'return' can be detected by anyone else who is is equiped so.

Even normal active sonar will work like this, except it will have the time reference so it will be able to get the range from the total delay.

Any advice is welcome. But if possible let's move to CADC (in my signature).

I'm planing to make sonar soon, even if the first version will be quite simple concerning TL calculation.

[SeaQueen]

SeaQueen: Bistatics (if it means different position for hydrophone and 'ping' source) are intended to be working in my sim. Generaly I plan it roughly like this: Pinger generates sound event .. it travels through the water and at some time it hits a target. Then reflected sound is generated on the target as new sound event, which travels using the same algorithm (except with different parameteres based on frequency and so on). Then this 'return' can be detected by anyone else who is is equiped so.

Interesting. That could end up resulting in a lot of interesting technical problems, like mutual interference and what not. That's not necessarily a bad thing, provided the simulation also has the ability to cope with various remedies for them. This means you're most likely going to get into some pretty serious signal processing geekyness.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Any advice is welcome. But if possible let's move to CADC (in my signature).

I'm planing to make sonar soon, even if the first version will be quite simple concerning TL calculation.
OT but...

Methinks in a year or two you'll have a pretty rocking SubSim Dr. Sid. :rock:

PD

[goldorak]

Eh, luck only is a major factor if your buoys are spread out too much. It's more about being realistic about how much area you can search/secure given your target class, target speed, and the acoustic conditions. The smart money is always on the P-3 in a DW scenario (unless the pilot forgets the range of hostile SAM systems in the area..cough, Oneshot, cough cough) so you're not the one in need of luck.



About the SAM issue.
You're correct in saying that careless air units (p-3 or mh-60r) are extremely succeptible to SAM attacks. But sub drivers forget that to launch SAMS you have to breach the surface, and at that moment they are vulnerable to the frigates cannon. And believe me, 2-3 shots are all that is needed to sink a sub. :|\\
A manned frigate plus 2 manned mh-60h and or/p-3 can make a sub drivers life very miserable. :p

[Molon Labe]

Eh, luck only is a major factor if your buoys are spread out too much. It's more about being realistic about how much area you can search/secure given your target class, target speed, and the acoustic conditions. The smart money is always on the P-3 in a DW scenario (unless the pilot forgets the range of hostile SAM systems in the area..cough, Oneshot, cough cough) so you're not the one in need of luck.


About the SAM issue.
You're correct in saying that careless air units (p-3 or mh-60r) are extremely succeptible to SAM attacks. But sub drivers forget that to launch SAMS you have to breach the surface, and at that moment they are vulnerable to the frigates cannon. And believe me, 2-3 shots are all that is needed to sink a sub. :|\\
A manned frigate plus 2 manned mh-60h and or/p-3 can make a sub drivers life very miserable. :p

Oh yeah, no doubt there. An FFG or MH60 could easily wait with their fingers on the trigger to keep a sub from coming up... But the SAM systems I meant were those attached to surface ships. I wouldn't necessarily describe being in range of a sub's MANPADS as being careless. Risky or reckless, perhaps, but not careless.