SH3 vs SH4 Atlantic campaign comparsion

[csengoi]

First of all: I was a big big fan of SH3. I loved it. When SH4 arrived, I was amazed of the new shiny graphics, and got excited, but the Pacific theater with american Uboats prevented me from playing. Them I've started to wait patiently for the Atlantic/German release. When I heard UBoot mission is coming I cheared, but it was a disappointment. I've started to wait again, this time for the community (mainly GWX team) to give us back the great Atlantic dynamic campaign. And now it is on it's way to become true.
So could someone enumerate the things are worse/missing from SH4 (OP munsun) compare to SH3?

[Rockin Robbins]

No.:shifty:

OK, just one. The lookouts in Op Monsun allied warships cannot visually see 30 km like they can in modded SH3.

[csengoi]

And what about KM grid on the Atlantic, and type XXI uboot? Will them also implemented?

[tHy]

They propably will, sometime...

and not a single mod shows the awesome depth of the "big" SH3 mods like GWX which in their latest versions are so filled with scenic depth and accuracy giving the game "the real feeling". That's something you can't get for SH4 atm in a package, you have to do the dirty work yourxelf and mix up masses of mods to achieve a somewhat close atmosphere.

Don't get me wrong, I also started playing SH4 for real again only after OM finally arrived, and finally some terrific visual and audial mods are avaible too to bring immersion in a technical way completely unable to achieve with SH3 engine, but the detailed and long work on campaigns and subs is missing up to now (understandable, the SH3 community now had several more years of time to work on it ;) , and I have no doubt that SH4 will be enhanced and kept alive by the modding community for also several years (better said, at least until SH5 arrives ;) ).

[Pablo]

MODERATOR HAT ON:

Howdy folks!

I can understand how the title of this thread could make it tempting for folks with a certain mindset to take potshots at other mods. Please keep in mind that Neal has set the moderators' sensors to high sensitivity with regard to these types of posts, no matter how veiled or general you think your references to Operation Monsun or GWX are, by the way.

So, how to keep this thread on track while staying clear of the moderators? Well, it might be good to keep in mind that Operation Monsun is not finished, GWX V3 has just started development, and that there may be a lot of other folks out there who may be contemplating or working on mods that haven't yet been made public.

I therefore suggest bringing up things constructively that you would like to see in any Atlantic-related campaign: stay away from "rivet counting" and think in terms of the overall campaign, and let modders (current and future) take a look at your wishlist and see what it is you folks would like to see.

Thanks!

Pablo

[Jaeger]

And what about KM grid on the Atlantic, and type XXI uboot? Will them also implemented?

what about the grid? are there any chances to get this really appreciated feature in the atlantic theatre in sh4?

[Rockin Robbins]

Not in SH3 either, looks like you didn't play it in a while RR :pYup, you're right! It's been several months. Sensors have been rebalanced? I know that is always a struggle the way really bothersome parameters are hardcoded. You end up making an unrealistic adjustment in something you CAN adjust to make a desired effect on what you can't. All mods have it somewhere. Operation Monsun surely has compromises somewhere and I'll bet Lurker will be bright enough to let us discover them by accident.

Compromises do not detract from a mod. They reveal the ingenuity that lies beneath the surface.

[Rockin Robbins]

They propably will, sometime...

and not a single mod shows the awesome depth of the "big" SH3 mods like GWX which in their latest versions are so filled with scenic depth and accuracy giving the game "the real feeling". That's something you can't get for SH4 atm in a package, you have to do the dirty work yourxelf and mix up masses of mods to achieve a somewhat close atmosphere.

Don't get me wrong, I also started playing SH4 for real again only after OM finally arrived, and finally some terrific visual and audial mods are avaible too to bring immersion in a technical way completely unable to achieve with SH3 engine, but the detailed and long work on campaigns and subs is missing up to now (understandable, the SH3 community now had several more years of time to work on it ;) , and I have no doubt that SH4 will be enhanced and kept alive by the modding community for also several years (better said, at least until SH5 arrives ;) ).

I just hope that SH3 does not suffer for the U-Boat addition to SH4. I consider these games co-equals, but it is apparent that Ubi does not, and sees SH4 as a replacement for SH3. I think that's a very unfortunate decision. I would have purchased SH3½ in a flash if the intent was to equalize the graphics levels of the two games.

[TDK1044]

The GWX guys (and many others) have done an amazing job with Silent Hunter 3, but there comes a point where without enhancements offered from the publisher, the game reaches the 'as good as it gets' stage. I think Silent Hunter 3 is pretty much at that point.

The U Boat development of Silent Hunter 4 on the other hand is in its infancy. Lurker's Beta mod is a big step in the right direction, and he and the GWX guys deserve a lot of credit for the work they are doing with Silent Hunter 4.

To have both a Pacific fleet boat campaign and a U Boat Atlantic campaign within the same game is awesome to me. I look forward to many future mods. :D

[Sailor Steve]

They propably will, sometime...

and not a single mod shows the awesome depth of the "big" SH3 mods like GWX which in their latest versions are so filled with scenic depth and accuracy giving the game "the real feeling". That's something you can't get for SH4 atm in a package, you have to do the dirty work yourxelf and mix up masses of mods to achieve a somewhat close atmosphere.
That is in the process of changing; and I'm not talking about the fact that the GWX guys are starting to look at SH4, though that's a part of it.

Remember when SH3 was a year old. Many mods had been made, and the first supermods like RUB were out. That got advanced and taken far beyond its original self in NYGM, the first GW was released, and now we have even further advance versions of those plus the brilliant WAC.

Monsun, Trigger Maru, RSRD and RFB are all great, but from what I've seen SH4 really is still in its early stages. The people who continue to develop those are the pioneers, and look at what Rubini, Racerboy and friends did after they looked at SH4 and said "Hey! We can make that work in SH3 too!" Now people are asking which would be more beneficial: try to back-date SH4's crew management and transparent water into SH3 or just apply that knowledge, talent and experience to SH4 and be done with it? And the GWX team working in SH4 can't hurt, either.

Having access to the internal workings would be a nice thing for UBISoft to grant, but even if that never happens the future of this game system is just beginning, and looking very bright. I just hope I'm around to have fun with most of it.:sunny:

[Wilcke]

Thanks Steve, for also naming the other great additional mods available for SH3. I personally think NYGM is an astounding achievement. This man's opinion and I have been there and tried them all.

At this time SH4 also offers the simmer a great experience in Fleet Boats and in U-Boats. My advise jump in and try them all you cannot go wrong. The best thing is that there are some really neat things coming down the pipeline for SH4! Well 'nuff said and keep it all on the positive side.

Happy Hunting guys!:ping:

[tHy]

I'm sorry if my post appeared to be rude towards certain mods or something. I tried to make clear that the difference in quality is only natural, looking at the additional years the modders had with SH3.

I'm totally aware (and I think I stated so) that SH4 has a tremendous potential (even though there are many flaws in the engine which make modding difficult. I'm eagerly awaiting the masses of cool mods and modpacks surely to come :) . Constructive criticism is reserved for the mod-related threads, a "Critize whatever you wish in whatever mod you wish" seems very unhelpful as probably no modmaker would read all that...

[Adriatico]

First of all: I was a big big fan of SH3. I loved it. When SH4 arrived, I was amazed of the new shiny graphics, and got excited, but the Pacific theater with american Uboats prevented me from playing. Them I've started to wait patiently for the Atlantic/German release. When I heard UBoot mission is coming I cheared, but it was a disappointment. I've started to wait again, this time for the community (mainly GWX team) to give us back the great Atlantic dynamic campaign. And now it is on it's way to become true.
So could someone enumerate the things are worse/missing from SH4 (OP munsun) compare to SH3?

I am sure that the most of us have the same mixed feelings...

One thing is still unclear:

- Are there any GWX projects for SH4 ?
- Do they still exist as a team ?
- Is it just "giving a hand" to a new SH4 Atlantic creators, on personal bases ?

Wolfpack is "running silent"... and "alpha male" seems to be retired ?

:huh:

[Rockin Robbins]

One thing is still unclear:

- Are there any GWX projects for SH4 ?
- Do they still exist as a team ?
- Is it just "giving a hand" to a new SH4 Atlantic creators, on personal bases ?

Wolfpack is "running silent"... and "alpha male" seems to be retired ?

:huh:
Please reference Mark Twain's comments on the same subject, commenting on rumors of his demise...:yep:

[Dowly]

One thing is still unclear:

- Are there any GWX projects for SH4 ?
- Do they still exist as a team ?
- Is it just "giving a hand" to a new SH4 Atlantic creators, on personal bases ?

Wolfpack is "running silent"... and "alpha male" seems to be retired ?

:huh:

Already announced weeks ago; GWX for SH4 is in developement and updates will be very few if any before the release.

[TDK1044]

One thing is still unclear:

- Are there any GWX projects for SH4 ?
- Do they still exist as a team ?
- Is it just "giving a hand" to a new SH4 Atlantic creators, on personal bases ?

Wolfpack is "running silent"... and "alpha male" seems to be retired ?

:huh:

Already announced weeks ago; GWX for SH4 is in developement and updates will be very few if any before the release.


If it's going to be even half as good as your SHIII mod it will be well worth the wait. :D

[Adriatico]

If it is true, it's the best software news I,ve heard in a last few years...:up:

But my long simulation expierence gave me a lesson: be very suspecious with projects - with very few updates, if any... :dead:

Sincerely hope that I'm wrong...
:ping:

[TDK1044]

If it is true, it's the best software news I,ve heard in a last few years...:up:

But my long simulation expierence gave me a lesson: be very suspecious with projects - with very few updates, if any... :dead:

Sincerely hope that I'm wrong...
:ping:


You just need to be patient. Members of the GWX team have stated repeatedly that they are working on a large mod for SHIV, but that it's a fair way off yet.

They won't be rushed. They'll take their time and do it right. :D

[Adriatico]

If so, I'm sure that they won't rush... so much the better.

Just have to say that GWX 2.1 was a surplus project from the day 1.

Instead of investing all that energy, time, effort and coordination into technical perfection of "already out of date graphic engine" - it would have been much better if they have started 12 months ago to shift GWX gameplay into SH4 visual environment.

Long time ago, it was clear that very few players would become SH funs - because of improvement of GWX 2.1 compared to GWX 2.0... but many players left SH3 because of old graphic, atractive new visuals and hardware price-drop...

Please, don't blame me for my genuine opinion, I am still playing GWX 2.1, I am very grateful to Wolfpack for their effort... but time will prove that I was right.

Feel free to fire back on me...
:roll:

[TDK1044]

I think if Ubisoft had released the SDK for SHIII then some things could have been very different.

With SH4, it was the Devs who pushed for a U Boat expansion pack. They wanted it as a free download, but the money men had other ideas. When you look at the work done by Leo Vampire, kriller 2, and many others currently modding for this game, I think the next 12 months will be exciting for SH4. :D

[Adriatico]

Hope you're right...

There are two oposing facts:

1) Kriegsmarine WW2 warfare is by far more challenging and interesting than US Pacific story
2) US&UK are the biggest market of legal software... and these guys are not very interested in shooting their own ships... fair enough.

We should be aware that subsim community is just a small portion of fanatics, within general "SH market"...

:roll:

[Hartmann]

And what about KM grid on the Atlantic, and type XXI uboot? Will them also implemented?
Is possible to implement the XXI boat, take the walter boat from the addon and change the specs in the configuration files dived spped to 17 knts . and remove the walter turbine fuel.

At this moment sh3 is near of the modding limit and could be better stay with sh4, is a great engine with a lot of possibilities

[Pablo]

If so, I'm sure that they won't rush... so much the better.

Just have to say that GWX 2.1 was a surplus project from the day 1.

Instead of investing all that energy, time, effort and coordination into technical perfection of "already out of date graphic engine" - it would have been much better if they have started 12 months ago to shift GWX gameplay into SH4 visual environment.

Long time ago, it was clear that very few players would become SH funs - because of improvement of GWX 2.1 compared to GWX 2.0... but many players left SH3 because of old graphic, atractive new visuals and hardware price-drop...

Please, don't blame me for my genuine opinion, I am still playing GWX 2.1, I am very grateful to Wolfpack for their effort... but time will prove that I was right.

Feel free to fire back on me...
:roll: MODERATOR HAT OFF:

Hi!

IIRC, the GWX Team decided to finish off V2.1 for the SH3 engine and await the appearance of the U-boat Missions Add-On, since the team felt
the add-on would probably make life a lot easier for folks interested in modding U-boats, as well as giving Ubisoft another opportunity to kill SH4 game engine bugs.
The GWX team could work out some final kinks in GWX to better prepare for a move to the SH4 engine, should the team decide to continue that way.As it turned out, the U-boat Missions arrived in late February 2008, while the final GWX V2.1 appeared only a couple of months later, in April 2008, so it seems to me that not all that much time has been "lost" by completing GWX V2.1.... :)

Pablo

[ref]

If so, I'm sure that they won't rush... so much the better.

Just have to say that GWX 2.1 was a surplus project from the day 1.

Instead of investing all that energy, time, effort and coordination into technical perfection of "already out of date graphic engine" - it would have been much better if they have started 12 months ago to shift GWX gameplay into SH4 visual environment.

Long time ago, it was clear that very few players would become SH funs - because of improvement of GWX 2.1 compared to GWX 2.0... but many players left SH3 because of old graphic, atractive new visuals and hardware price-drop...

Please, don't blame me for my genuine opinion, I am still playing GWX 2.1, I am very grateful to Wolfpack for their effort... but time will prove that I was right.

Feel free to fire back on me...
:roll: MODERATOR HAT OFF:

Hi!

IIRC, the GWX Team decided to finish off V2.1 for the SH3 engine and await the appearance of the U-boat Missions Add-On, since the team felt
the add-on would probably make life a lot easier for folks interested in modding U-boats, as well as giving Ubisoft another opportunity to kill SH4 game engine bugs.
The GWX team could work out some final kinks in GWX to better prepare for a move to the SH4 engine, should the team decide to continue that way.As it turned out, the U-boat Missions arrived in late February 2008, while the final GWX V2.1 appeared only a couple of months later, in April 2008, so it seems to me that not all that much time has been "lost" by completing GWX V2.1.... :)

Pablo

You're correct, Pablo, after exchanging some PMs with the devs, we decided to wait till the addon was released, prior to that there where too many limitations to port correctly the subs (only two compartments), also the KM grid was missing (although the current implementation of it in SH4 has a lot of problems, hopefully we can get some help from the devs).
We're now setting the quality baseline to which sh3 units should be converted to exploit the better sh4 graphic engine, mostly getting aquainted with the new capabilities of it.

Ref

[Jaeger]

as you all know, it is much appreciated by the community to get as many as possible information about the development process while the customers are waiting for the new product. could you please install a dev diary thread or give us screenshots about the dev status?

[ryoga_77]

First of all congrats to Privateer and Pablo for their new respective positions and thanks for the continued efforts of the GW team!

Second,will there be Photo recon , agent insertion , supply delivery or airman rescue type of missions for GWX 4 ?

Or is it just a case of keeping your card deck close to your chest!:cool:

[ryoga_77]

OOPS, wrong thread!

[csengoi]

I have some questions:

In SH3 there is report, where the engeneer tells me the maximum range of the boat at current speed. Is this report absolutely missing from SH4?
In SH2 there was a calendar in the captains room, which contained the actual moon phases. Is it possible to include it in SH4? (Does even the light of the moon matter, I mean does the enemy senses me easear at full moon?)
Why isn't there weather report?
Is it possible to include custom radio channels?

[Gorshkov]

I'd like to note it would be very appreciated if future GWX-like mods for SH4 were reasonably resource consuming. For example mission loading time in GWX is 10 minutes and in SH4 it is usually a half of minute. Many tons of additional graphic stuff is not necessary in SH4 game because of genuinely very good graphics in the stock game.

[shackman]

I have some questions:

In SH3 there is report, where the engeneer tells me the maximum range of the boat at current speed. Is this report absolutely missing from SH4?

Why isn't there weather report?




I was wondering the same thing... Don't have a clue why they left it out.... it was actually...very helpful :-?

[csengoi]

Yes, it was.
And actually I've decided if to pursue a convoy wheter my fuel was efficient to do so.
It is needed...

[Digital_Trucker]

Yes, it was.
And actually I've decided if to pursue a convoy wheter my fuel was efficient to do so.
It is needed...
It wasn't left out, it's

[Cmd257]
Name=Report_time_to_turn

in the ...........\Data\Cfg\Commands.cfg file. I don't believe it has a command normally assigned to it but if you add the following line below the last line for that command, then pressing Shift and G at the same time will execute the command.

Key0=0x47,s,"Shift+G"

You can also use JimiMadrid's menu maker program to add a button to your command bar for the command.

[Sailor Steve]

I'd like to note it would be very appreciated if future GWX-like mods for SH4 were reasonably resource consuming. For example mission loading time in GWX is 10 minutes and in SH4 it is usually a half of minute. Many tons of additional graphic stuff is not necessary in SH4 game because of genuinely very good graphics in the stock game.
GWX almost doubles the file size of SH3. There are many new ships, planes and things to see. SH4 is different in that it doesn't load the whole war, just the immediate time frame of your mission. This is why people who go back to Midway and 'refit' several times are suddenly posting here to ask why there are no longer any ships around. This will almost certainly cut down GWX4 loading times as well, but they will also have the extra units, so perhaps the times won't be reduced as much as you'd like.

[Rockin Robbins]

I have some questions:

In SH3 there is report, where the engeneer tells me the maximum range of the boat at current speed. Is this report absolutely missing from SH4?

Why isn't there weather report?



I was wondering the same thing... Don't have a clue why they left it out.... it was actually...very helpful :-?
There IS a weather report.

[Rockin Robbins]

as you all know, it is much appreciated by the community to get as many as possible information about the development process while the customers are waiting for the new product. could you please install a dev diary thread or give us screenshots about the dev status?With all due respect, that is the WORST thing they could do. The creative process, when it is left to work best, is full of blind alleys, changes in decisions and the like. Sometimes the authorship process is not pretty. Putting raw ideas out there in a dev log is just building expectation of something the team might find they don't even want in a month.

It builds unteasonable (whoa, I'm leaving that one in! That's GOOD!) expectations of dozens of features the final release will not have. So when the mod is released, the general reaction will be disappointment that this or that feature you fell in love with on the development log isn't in there.

Much better to go dark, say nothing and imitate a dead man until the mod suddenly appears fullblown to everyone's amazement and delight. Development of a major mod should not be a reality show.

Just my opinion, but I'm right!:rotfl:

[Sailor Steve]

It builds unteasonable (whoa, I'm leaving that one in! That's GOOD!) expectations...
It stands to teason that you'd do something like that. I would try to change your mind, but sometimes there's just no teasoning with you.:p

[csengoi]

Yes, it was.
And actually I've decided if to pursue a convoy wheter my fuel was efficient to do so.
It is needed...
It wasn't left out, it's

[Cmd257]
Name=Report_time_to_turn

in the ...........\Data\Cfg\Commands.cfg file. I don't believe it has a command normally assigned to it but if you add the following line below the last line for that command, then pressing Shift and G at the same time will execute the command.

Key0=0x47,s,"Shift+G"

You can also use JimiMadrid's menu maker program to add a button to your command bar for the command.

Thanks a lot!
I'll try out this.

[csengoi]

Weather report is also there, indeed. I wonder why these commands were left out from the commandbar?:roll: