This is Interesting

[Frame57]

I was skimming through my latest periodical from the Naval Submarine league and VADM Donnely CSF made this statement. "...The TB-29 is a very capable TA and, when it works, clearly detects contacts that are invisible to other acoustic sensors. But, with a 19% reliability, my CO's have an understanably hard time trusting that it will be there when they need it the most."

This floored me, and I wonder how in the world this TA could have made it to the boats with this kind of poor reliabilty rating. I would have an inbound TLAM heading right to the factory that makes these things. :damn:

[SeaQueen]

I was skimming through my latest periodical from the Naval Submarine league and VADM Donnely CSF made this statement. "...The TB-29 is a very capable TA and, when it works, clearly detects contacts that are invisible to other acoustic sensors. But, with a 19% reliability, my CO's have an understanably hard time trusting that it will be there when they need it the most."

This floored me, and I wonder how in the world this TA could have made it to the boats with this kind of poor reliabilty rating. I would have an inbound TLAM heading right to the factory that makes these things. :damn:

Anything that's exposed to the sea tends to break a lot. Salt causes corrosion of the metal mechanical parts. Also, lots of little sea creatures like to make their homes in things.

[Frame57]

I cannot deny the truth of that SQ. But our ancient TB-16 on Archerfish worked all the time. So I am not buying that for this particular TA. With that much of a poor performance, there has to be an OEM design flaw somewhere.

[SeaQueen]

I cannot deny the truth of that SQ. But our ancient TB-16 on Archerfish worked all the time. So I am not buying that for this particular TA. With that much of a poor performance, there has to be an OEM design flaw somewhere.

I don't doubt it. I dunno... my sense of things is that there's two things going on right now:

1) The US Navy is not nearly as skilled as it used to be. It has to do with a lot of things coming to a head. Everything from bad personel policy to budget issues.

2) There's a lot of lesser known problems with various other programs that result from issues similar to those in the LCS program. The LCS program was just the biggest goof up. The policies that led to the goof up were not isolated to the LCS program.

3) American scientists and engineers are not as good as they used to be. The public education system is basically a tragedy. The really sad thing is that we're actually dealing with a generational problem. Things have been so bad for so long that parents don't know what it really means to be educated anymore. So... when the parents are incompetant in science and math, any marginal improvement over them seems great to them, even as kids are falling behind in the big picture. As one who went to private school, sometimes I'm SHOCKED to find out what most public school children consider to be advanced material. Frankly, I don't think American universities should admit American children anymore. They're not capable of the work. Every child should graduate from highschool knowing calculus and linear algebra. That should just be a given. It's impossible right now, though. It's a total pipedream.

So... bottom line in about twenty years the US military is going to look like a European military. They ended up in the hole they were in because of socialism. We're going to end up in the hole we're in because of... Republicanism. It's actually pretty funny when I think about it.

[OneShot]

Just being the old curious me but what hole in particular are the European Navies in your opinion in ? Money (i.e. Equipment) or Personnel ?

[goldorak]

Just being the old curious me but what hole in particular are the European Navies in your opinion in ? Money (i.e. Equipment) or Personnel ?

Most probably money or moreso the cronic lack of money.
European navies are pretty advanced, thank you very much SeaQueen. On the other hand we don't have dreams of imperialism anymore. So the money goes to something more usefull. We have our own historic destiny to achieve, that is if our euro-politicians don't **** everything up in the process. :shifty:

[jmr]

American scientists and engineers are not as good as they used to be.
Naw, they just end up working for Google rather than Boeing. :lol:

But seriously, I'm not sure I agree with that statement as any accredited engineering or advanced science program is going to have high standards to begin with. I think the main problem lies in the number of scientists and engineers we're cranking out today versus the number we used to produce in prior generations. I think this shortage has more to due with poor math skills of "kids these days" rather than a lack of interest in the sciences. There was a piece that Bill Moyers did not too long ago discussing this topic where those entering college with a desire to go into the sciences end up defaulting to a liberal arts major because they quickly found out that their math skills weren't up to par. And this is not to denigrate the liberal arts in any way because there are individuals who are exceptionally bright and who willingly opt for those programs because that's where their talent and passion lays. Don’t chuckle, but we’ll always have a need for English majors.

It's the ones who major in them out of necessity because it’s the only thing they can major in are perhaps the ones who shouldn't be in college in the first place. But in the US we place an overwhelming emphasis on the almighty bachelor’s degree over the less glamorous technical trades; it's no wonder we have an abundance of college graduates with degrees that are practically useless in the working world. In the corporate world many employers won’t even consider you for hire or promotion unless you have a BA. A bachelor’s in basket weaving is better than no bachelor’s at all, it seems.

The public education system is basically a tragedy.
They’re a train wreck from the ground up, no doubt about it, and the only solution I can conjure up involves nuking them from orbit with the intention of starting all over again. Part of the problem stems from our cultural emphasis on being noisy, boisterous, popular, athletic, good looking, etc., while shunning actual learning. And heaven forbid if you’re a nerd who loves that sort of thing.

Every child should graduate from high school knowing calculus and linear algebra
Heh, a bit extreme don’t you think? I know a couple who hold advanced degrees in engineering that have children that have shown no proclivity for math. Such an extreme mandate really wouldn’t accomplish anything other than to increase the high school dropout rate. Proficiency in the basics is a must but not everyone is wired to be an engineer or scientist when they’re conceived.

[Frame57]

I agree with our public ed being in the toilet. But I have been out of the US Sub Force 1992. I can only hope the standards have not been lowered. I have heard the Boot camps now are easier and the DI's have to be "nice" or some crap like that. Since Rickover is not around I wonder if nuclear power training is as tough as it used to be. They used to have a considerable drop out rate because of the intensity of the training.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

I agree with our public ed being in the toilet. But I have been out of the US Sub Force 1992. I can only hope the standards have not been lowered. I have heard the Boot camps now are easier and the DI's have to be "nice" or some crap like that. Since Rickover is not around I wonder if nuclear power training is as tough as it used to be. They used to have a considerable drop out rate because of the intensity of the training.

You got out on '92 as well eh?

I have had the (dis)pleasure of meeting some of the current baby nukes. They scare me. They really do.

Let me remininsce here:

I knew that my brethen had gone thru hell like I did. There was no free rides. There was not 'easy time'. I remember the stress of the final exam in nuke school in Orlando. I about passed out when I saw that I had made it.

When I met other nukes (even the ones that had not be in class with me) I KNEW that they had a basic level of knowledge in order to make it to the fleet.

Remember, the nuke program was a FILTER and not a pump back then. They did not pump out nukes, they filtered them. If you did not make the cut in the acedemics or the STRESS management then you failed. You went to fleet as a normal rate.

I met some baby nukes when I lived in Florida. Pensacola is a BIG navy town and a lot of the kids come home to see their retired parents between schools or on the way to their first commands. I had a job that put me in contact with quite a few of them. I got to 'talk shop' with them on more than a few occasions and noticed that the level of knowledge was dropping rapidly.

Things that I KNEW I had a basic handle on was way outside of their level of knowledge. It seemed to me that the program had gone from one of engineering training then backfilling in the required naval knowledge to one that seemd more reactionary and screen reading.

It was always a trait of a nuke in the old days that they could 'nuke out' anything. If you gave them a tech manual and a basic diagram, they could figure out how it works and what it was supposed to do in the first place. I have NEVER seen a 100K GPD flash type evap (fresh water maker), but I could explain the principles of operation and the underlying physics and thermodynamics that were behind it.

Modern nukes?? They know the basics of how the plants work, but if you ask them the 'nuts and bolt' they look at you with a blank stare. Talk about a dropped rod and how it changes the flux in the core and they say that the book has the answer. Ask them WHY the book tells them that and they just mumble back some BS answer. ANY nuke from my era (late 80's) could talk your EAR off about what happens and WHY. It did not matter what plant you studied, you understood the engineering and science behind it. If you came up against something you had not seen before, you could 'nuke it out' and come out with a good baseline.

This is not something you learn in the fleet. This is knowledge you went to the fleet WITH. This was WHY the fleet in general LOVED 'nuke waste', even 'waste' was pretty damn smart.

I am saddened to say that I started to see them general 'dumbing down' when my old CO became NAVSEA08 I.E. Naval Ractors. Since his tenure, I have seem the program go from a filter to a pump. The goal now seems to be how many nukes they can send to the fleet and who gives a care if they know what is really going on.

Back when I went though the program, my class had a 68% drop rate. That is from the beginning of A school till the end of Prototype. Thats right almost 7 in 10 got dropped. Some for academics, some for drinking, some for stupidity. I remember reading somewhere that in 2007 the drop rate was less than 10% and they wanted it lower. They were saying that 'better screening' and 'better training' were the causes for the lower drop rate.

I'm sorry to say, but, the 'top of his class' (I saw his award certificate btw) baby nuke MM that I met 3 years ago freaking SCARED me. I tried talking pump laws and basic steam cycle with him and he as as dumb as a box of hammers. This is when I started my own informal testing of any and all baby nukes I could find. This is when I found out that they teach more reactionary training. It has become 'if this happens, do the following procedure' type mentality. They do not seem to undertand the HOW and WHY they are doing things. Don't get me wrong, a valve is a valve, a switch is a switch, but they don't seem to have the underlying engineering training that we had. They taught us the HOW and the WHY instead of the 'cause and effect' training that they have now.

I can actually see one thing that this shifting in training will benefit for the navy. Back in my day, we repected officers becausee of their rank. The level of knowledge was not an issue between us. More then once, I have seen one of my brethern tell a officer that the only diffrence between them adn us was rank. We were not afraid to tell an officer that our level of knowledge was the same or BETTER then theirs. There was a respect in BOTH directions.

By dumbing down the enlisted nukes, they are creating a greater difference between the officers and enlisted. Now you will have officers who are truly 'smarter' and more knowledgable than the enlisted. This would have the effect of creating the 'stratification' that the military is looking for. They do not like having enlisted that can stand toe to toe with the officer ranks on the knowledge and education standard. It was difficult in my time when you have an officer who was 2 or 3 years older then you trying to tell you your job. ESPECIALLY when you know he was wrong.

Before you say I am bashing officers, my father was an Naval Aviator and we discussed this many times while we were BOTH active duty. We both discussed how the Navy wanted 'smart and educated' enlisted people as long as they knew their place. It made for many interesting times when he invited me to the O-Club for a drink.

Enough ranting for now.. I have to get back into the grove. I have been out of DW to long.

[Frame57]

Interesting obs BN. You may indeed be right. Everything is so cut and paste these days. My current Boss is a former Nuke Bubblehead and we often chat about this stuff and we are pretty much in agreement too. We work on medical life support equipment now. I had to get my electronics degree after my military career in order to work on medical equipment. we had to learn a lot of theory in electronics and had to be able to troubleshoot down to componant level on PCB's. But today that is pretty much gone in a lot of the electronics programs that are available at the community college level. Now when a board fries, you just replace the board. No more hooking up a DMM or O-scope. Those days are gone, so it seems that the level of knowledge does not have to be there as well. By the way my electronics professor was a Bubblehead too. He served on the diesel boats in the 1950's. He even made us learn tube theory. That guy knew his math every which way and then some. Me, if I do not use I lose it it seems. I have always admired peope who can take stuf like pre-calculus algebra and actually remember it. The Engineer on the A-fish was Tony Watkins and I still think he was the most intelligent human being I ever met. I envied the nukes and we A-ganger worked well with them even though we were called "Coners" once in awhile. But one thing we shared with our shipmates aft of frame 57 was our lack of liberty. I swear if I could do it all over again, I would strike a rate that got liberty as soon as the brow went over. Any one got a time machine handy?

[Dr.Sid]

It's the computers. People can invest their technical talents somewhere else. Also army in general may be less popular.

[goldorak]

While we are on the subject, does anyone know what Explosive Echo Ranging is ?
And if yes, is it still a tactic used nowadays in asw?
A person I play DW with is trying to convince me that EER is a sound tactic to hunt a submarine but I fail to see exactly why.
What can EER achieve that a field of passive/active sonobuoys + p-3 can't achieve ? :hmm:

[Pisces]

Ehm, how much of this topic still has to do with reliability (or lack thereof) of the real-live TB-29?

[Frame57]

It would be great if some ST's could weigh in on the subject. I do not think this would be an issue of the crew's being insufficiently trained. It seems as though the navy bought a piece of dog dooky that works well in theory but has some bugs or inherant design flaws in it.

[Maiale]

So... bottom line in about twenty years the US military is going to look like a European military. They ended up in the hole they were in because of socialism. We're going to end up in the hole we're in because of... Republicanism. It's actually pretty funny when I think about it.

What is a "European Military"? When will Americans understand that Europe is not set up like the US..? Europe isn't made up of different states but different NATIONS!! Every nation chooses it's own policy whether leaning more towards socialism or not...who more who less. But that's quite funny since Britain has been a democracy since before the US even existed. I don't see how a country like Britain is any more "socialist" than the US, to be honest.

And European militaries do a perfectly fine job...we don't invade countries at a whim like the US so all we really need is a defensive force, which they do a splendid job (when was the last time a European nation was invaded? 60 years?). I see someone has never been to Europe to actually see how it is...not how Tom Clancy thinks it is. I can see how the US got into trouble in Iraq because your way of thinking about the world is completely wrong..I would put down that as more worrying than actually not being able to do algebra and such. Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen. :rotfl::roll:

p.s. Ban me, suspend me I don't care, but I as a European, find such hypocritical and untrue bigotry offensive. Shame on you....and we're supposed to be allies? puh...you make the US sound like imperialist despots.. Yeah...the US is working...right....that's why your economy is down the crapper...right. :up:

[Dr.Sid]

Hey no ideology here please .. :hmm:

[Molon Labe]

So... bottom line in about twenty years the US military is going to look like a European military. They ended up in the hole they were in because of socialism. We're going to end up in the hole we're in because of... Republicanism. It's actually pretty funny when I think about it.
What is a "European Military"? When will Americans understand that Europe is not set up like the US..? Europe isn't made up of different states but different NATIONS!! Every nation chooses it's own policy whether leaning more towards socialism or not...who more who less. But that's quite funny since Britain has been a democracy since before the US even existed. I don't see how a country like Britain is any more "socialist" than the US, to be honest.

And European militaries do a perfectly fine job...we don't invade countries at a whim like the US so all we really need is a defensive force, which they do a splendid job (when was the last time a European nation was invaded? 60 years?). I see someone has never been to Europe to actually see how it is...not how Tom Clancy thinks it is. I can see how the US got into trouble in Iraq because your way of thinking about the world is completely wrong..I would put down that as more worrying than actually not being able to do algebra and such. Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen. :rotfl::roll:

p.s. Ban me, suspend me I don't care, but I as a European, find such hypocritical and untrue bigotry offensive. Shame on you....and we're supposed to be allies? puh...you make the US sound like imperialist despots.. Yeah...the US is working...right....that's why your economy is down the crapper...right. :up:
Settle down dude, there is nothing coming anywhere near bigotry in that post.

And seriously, not that it's what SQ said, but Europe is headed for a unified system. Ever heard of the EC and EU? :rotfl: You don't quite have a federal system yet, but it's not a stretch to call it a confederacy. You very well could have a federal system in a couple more decades.

And our economy is doing fine, thanks. Unemployment is low, GDP is holding steady. Having to deal with reduced growth due to higher input prices is hardly "down the crapper." "Shame on you" for getting swept away in whatever sensationalistic crap is being thrown at you by your media.

And if you think the reason we got into trouble in Iraq is because "our way of thinking" is different from yours, your lack of miltiary knowledge--or even awareness of public events--is astounding.

Just for future reference, if you have a disagreement about something someone said, you may want to think things through before going on a crazy rant where you make yourself look twice as bad. It's always fun to watch self-pwnage though, so thanks!

[Frame57]

Too much Tobasco in his bloody mary makes for a hot head.

[Maiale]

Settle down dude, there is nothing coming anywhere near bigotry in that post.

And seriously, not that it's what SQ said, but Europe is headed for a unified system. Ever heard of the EC and EU? :rotfl: You don't quite have a federal system yet, but it's not a stretch to call it a confederacy. You very well could have a federal system in a couple more decades.

And our economy is doing fine, thanks. Unemployment is low, GDP is holding steady. Having to deal with reduced growth due to higher input prices is hardly "down the crapper." "Shame on you" for getting swept away in whatever sensationalistic crap is being thrown at you by your media.

And if you think the reason we got into trouble in Iraq is because "our way of thinking" is different from yours, your lack of miltiary knowledge--or even awareness of public events--is astounding.

Just for future reference, if you have a disagreement about something someone said, you may want to think things through before going on a crazy rant where you make yourself look twice as bad. It's always fun to watch self-pwnage though, so thanks!
Oh please...get off your high horse, "dude"...it doesn't suit you. As a former member of the armed forces of a European "socialist" :roll: nation, I took offence at someone saying we have dug a hole for ourselves. Which is completely untrue. Europe is in a very good state militarily, unlike the US which cannot fulfill recruitment goals (another media made-up story? funny...because it comes from your media...and government). Italy has gone from an inefficient conscription army, to a much smaller and cost-efficient professional army and were the third largest force in Iraq...all in the last decade...yes Italy. Britain has just ordered some new aircraft carriers and has put orders to buy planes from the US to jump off them. We have also started our own nuclear deterent force including British made missiles so we can close US bases and will be completely self-sufficient. Germany has become a premier miltary fighting force and France always was...and that's just a small example. So much for being in a "hole".

On the other hand, the US military doesn't look too good especially when you can't even sort out Iraq and you're pretty much over-stretched...and you're sabre rattling with Iran? That's pretty brave...or stupid. Ask the poor marines who are on their 4th tour if your military is working...

And your economy is going so good is it? So why are millions of Americans on food stamps...and yes, official unemployment is low (by US standards...we have much lower unemployment in Britain...look it up) but that's not counting the 13 million illegal mexicans. :roll: Not to mention your housing market is in the crapper...go on, deny that. :rotfl:

You know...even though your crappy economy and the billions you spent on a pointless war nearly brought down the European economy, we are actually doing rather well...we don't have poor people like the ones who live in New Orleans or Detroit which is more reminiscent with an African country. :up:

So much for allies...next time I hope we leave you with your cock in your hands....I think Iran will kick your butts...bahahaha :lol:

[Dr.Sid]

Get lost flamer.

[Maiale]

With pleasure...don't want to be on a board with a bunch of fat obese american arseholes who think they can do no wrong. Enjoy your bigoted views and ***** can ****** my ****ing americans...hope you get ****ed up by Iran...:lol: Iraq is ****ing you guys pretty badly not to mention goat herders in Stan.

****ing fat, ignorant american ****s...the whole ****ing world hates you...:stare:

[Maiale]

please close my account...or don't...I'll just not visit anymore. one more fuk off from me and your ****y country...:lol:

[Dr.Sid]

Lol .. he just wont shut up :rotfl:

[Fish]

...I'll just not visit anymore.

I hope you do. :up:

[XabbaRus]

OK Maiale I didn't see this. 24 hour ban...

[goldorak]

Maiale you can disagree with SeaQueen, just be a little more diplomatic about it.
No need to resort to insult.

[SeaQueen]

What is a "European Military"?


A European military is chronically underfunded, consists mostly of conscripts, lacks strategic lift capability, and is ultimately unable to even do the little bit of peacekeeping they claim to do because they have to rely on a superpower to transport them there.

Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen.

I think that the European governments spend too little on defense than is actually even in their own interests. The world would be more secure if Europeans made a commitment to even little things like having strategic lift capability or building real aircraft carriers. Interestingly, a lot of the NATO guys I've met agree with me on that point. It isn't about imperialism. It's about maintaining a prosperous, free world.

[SeaQueen]

Naw, they just end up working for Google rather than Boeing. :lol:

That too. I'm thinking of sending 'em my resume, because being a defense contractor is just an exercise in frustration.

[SeaQueen]

Ehm, how much of this topic still has to do with reliability (or lack thereof) of the real-live TB-29?

None. I was opined and now I'm being punished for it.

[OneShot]

To stay a bit longer OT ... I think the USN and the Navies in Europe do have a different way to go out things. While the USN tries to cover all its bases within itself the Navies in Europe are heading for specializing their capabilities and thus are not able to do everything by themselves. Ultimately this might/will lead to one European Navy consisting of units from all European Nations. The reasons for this path might be various tho my guess is that the main one is simply Money. It costs a hell of a lot to finance a navy that can do everything you want from a Navy as the USN aptly demonstrates. Thats not something the European Nations even the Brits or France are willing to do. Thus some capabilties are not or only limited available to any one Navy if viewed alone. However together the Navies do have those capabilities (just not in one convenient package).

Now is this concept good or bad in comparison to a single Navy with all capabilities? I think the answer to that depends on a lot of factors some of them are biased (by Mentality, Ideology and so on).

As for the quality of the personnel ... well lets agree on the fact that there are always good and bad apples on the cart ... but personnaly I just don't have enough information to make a sound judgement on way or another. From what I know it seems that for example the way people are trained to work and function are different between the USN and Germany (for example). Is one way better than the other ... no idea - would have to do some scientific experiments for that which I doubt will happen in the foreseeable future. So its back to square one with the statement ... there are differences.

Cheers
OS

[Dr.Sid]

Keelhauled ? Poor guy :arrgh!:

[jmr]

Have to admit that keelhauled avatar is pretty cool :rock:

[Frame57]

I ask a simple question based on a professional periodical and this thread turns to this??? I get the MO of this stuff in the general section of the forum's. But here, this is about DW and related submarine topics. Keep it this way or ye be my next waterslug.:arrgh!:

[Dr.Sid]

I guess it was just random incident. Look at his post count.

[Molon Labe]

It was a drive-by argument!

[Fish]

What is a "European Military"?


A European military is chronically underfunded, consists mostly of conscripts, lacks strategic lift capability, and is ultimately unable to even do the little bit of peacekeeping they claim to do because they have to rely on a superpower to transport them there.
We spent 600.000.000 euros in two years on our mission in Afghanistan. We have our own transport, we even have 30 AH-64D's, Ohh.. and 16 soldiers died during that litle bit of peacekeeping.
And... we are just a small country.

[HeavyDelta]

I have to agree with the downfall of the public education system here. I got into the Navy NUPOC program several months back but I did terrible on the technical interviews. Mostly because they stressed the importance of WHY something happens over simply WHAT happens.
So I've spent everyday for the past 3 months backtracking through all of my high school and college education trying to learn the WHYS that they never taught me, and believe me there's a ton.
I can't comment on the enlisted nucs but the other nuc officer candidates I've met have mostly been brilliant, I guess the poor economy is driving many talented young people into the security of a gov't job.
But still the acceptance rate into the nuc field is riduculously high, they'll take anyone. My recruiter told me that there's about a %93 acceptance rate for nucs. I'm not sure about the drop out rate however.

[Frame57]

I have to agree with the downfall of the public education system here. I got into the Navy NUPOC program several months back but I did terrible on the technical interviews. Mostly because they stressed the importance of WHY something happens over simply WHAT happens.
So I've spent everyday for the past 3 months backtracking through all of my high school and college education trying to learn the WHYS that they never taught me, and believe me there's a ton.
I can't comment on the enlisted nucs but the other nuc officer candidates I've met have mostly been brilliant, I guess the poor economy is driving many talented young people into the security of a gov't job.
But still the acceptance rate into the nuc field is riduculously high, they'll take anyone. My recruiter told me that there's about a %93 acceptance rate for nucs. I'm not sure about the drop out rate however.Congrats! And a hearty thankyou for serving your Country. Once you are done with all your training and qualifications. Take advantage of continuing your education. Are you going into the Sub Force? I would do it again in a heart beat. Good luck!:up:

[HeavyDelta]

I have to agree with the downfall of the public education system here. I got into the Navy NUPOC program several months back but I did terrible on the technical interviews. Mostly because they stressed the importance of WHY something happens over simply WHAT happens.
So I've spent everyday for the past 3 months backtracking through all of my high school and college education trying to learn the WHYS that they never taught me, and believe me there's a ton.
I can't comment on the enlisted nucs but the other nuc officer candidates I've met have mostly been brilliant, I guess the poor economy is driving many talented young people into the security of a gov't job.
But still the acceptance rate into the nuc field is riduculously high, they'll take anyone. My recruiter told me that there's about a %93 acceptance rate for nucs. I'm not sure about the drop out rate however.Congrats! And a hearty thankyou for serving your Country. Once you are done with all your training and qualifications. Take advantage of continuing your education. Are you going into the Sub Force? I would do it again in a heart beat. Good luck!:up:

I appreciate it, you know that's one of the first 'thank you's" I've gotten. And likewise, thank you for your service. It looks like I'm going surface, so I've got to qualify as a SWO before heading to Nuc Power School. Have you ever heard of the Nuc path being a 'career killer'... I guess in terms of rank progression? Not that it matters to me, like you said, it's the education opportunities that appeal most to me.
By the way the stories you former nucs have posted... you guys have planted way too many seeds in my head... I don't know if I'll ever be able to walk by a goat without thinking bad things.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

I appreciate it, you know that's one of the first 'thank you's" I've gotten. And likewise, thank you for your service. It looks like I'm going surface, so I've got to qualify as a SWO before heading to Nuc Power School. Have you ever heard of the Nuc path being a 'career killer'... I guess in terms of rank progression? Not that it matters to me, like you said, it's the education opportunities that appeal most to me.
By the way the stories you former nucs have posted... you guys have planted way too many seeds in my head... I don't know if I'll ever be able to walk by a goat without thinking bad things.

It is not a career killer per say. What happens is that the 'needs of the Navy' will get in the way of your advancement. Once you are in the nuc field the navy HATES to let you get away from it. Thus you are limited in your shore duty assignments as they want to 'keep you in the pipeline'. You have to fight all the others who want to get that shore duty that keeps the detailers happy and you in the pipe.

It creates a definte speedbump unless you learn to kiss butt real early and have a sea daddy who watches over your career. The problem with that is if your daddy gets in trouble, you are gonna get dumped in a corner while someone elses 'kids' get the good treatment. I have seen MANY a good officer get the shaft becuase of the limited upward mobility.

[Frame57]

Keep us posted on how things go for you. We like ya even if you are a 'skimmer'.:D Yeah the goat thing was fun. I have to post another one on BN's thread soon. My own family never thanked me for my service, even on veteran's day! (Wah!) But, I make it a habit with all active duty, reserves and veterans, to thank them. It is a good thing to do. BN was the nuke. I was a non nuke MM on SSN-678 and SSN 687. If you ever get the chance to go to NDSTC or NUMI in Panama City FL. Do it! It was a blast there, not too mention the bikini's on the beach....:up:

[Trinidad]

What is a "European Military"?

A European military is chronically underfunded, consists mostly of conscripts, lacks strategic lift capability, and is ultimately unable to even do the little bit of peacekeeping they claim to do because they have to rely on a superpower to transport them there.

Seriously...for someone who harps on about "lack of education" you do display a surprising amount of ignorance my dear Sea Queen.
I think that the European governments spend too little on defense than is actually even in their own interests. The world would be more secure if Europeans made a commitment to even little things like having strategic lift capability or building real aircraft carriers. Interestingly, a lot of the NATO guys I've met agree with me on that point. It isn't about imperialism. It's about maintaining a prosperous, free world.
Well...itś a matter of money more than anything else. We don't have conscripts any more so no point in this.

About the strategic things.... yes, we don have a "real" aircraft carrier (Charles DeGaulle?) but what use will we do of it, for the cost of it? another point is "nuclear power". In Europe only Britain and France (+Russia) have nuclear ships, again, what for? Only because they have colonies, and Europe is very worried with the "nuclear problem" so it's a suicide to build a nuc ship here, green planet is important for us. The rest of us, we are happy with our SSK's : stealthier than your SSN's, more agile than your SSN's, slower than your SSN's( but fast enought for protecting our shores and ships). for surface ships, we have some "toy" carriers like Britain, Italy and my Spanish carriers, but they are good enought for us...and the Spanish f-100 frigates (thanks to US we have the AEGIS system on them)

Airforce....not really big transport planes yes...but as far as I know (from airmen in Kosovo) we europeans (Spain to be more precise) commanded 50% of the air attacks into Serbia : it meant 1 Spanish plane, a lot of american and brit planes behind......and we now have the eurofighter....

And Airbus has built the biggest transport, civilian, but the biggest.....I saw american soldiers going to Irak in civilian planes...on CNN....

And land forces...we have the leopard, and the leclerc....and the eurochopter....and the best infantry of the world (only american marines can catch us up there, in the spirit of our troops. Tech, you use far more tech of course)

BUT JUST REMEMBER, WE ARE ALLIES. SO YOU NEED HELP IN SOMETHING, WE NEED HELP IN OTHER THINGS. we cooperate, and that'a better than spent money in ...galaxies if you have them....and why US will spent money in SSk's..or small aircraft carriers like Tarawa..if we have them?

The only problem is money, you are the leading country in science researchs, but most of the researchers are from Europe (Spanish bios and meds are there investigating for you, and many many collegues in computers and programming). In my country we only spent 2% of our budget in research, and that's a pity.

Anyhow, and at the endl, aren't we allies?

[Rip]

Interesting obs BN. You may indeed be right. Everything is so cut and paste these days. My current Boss is a former Nuke Bubblehead and we often chat about this stuff and we are pretty much in agreement too. We work on medical life support equipment now. I had to get my electronics degree after my military career in order to work on medical equipment. we had to learn a lot of theory in electronics and had to be able to troubleshoot down to componant level on PCB's. But today that is pretty much gone in a lot of the electronics programs that are available at the community college level. Now when a board fries, you just replace the board. No more hooking up a DMM or O-scope. Those days are gone, so it seems that the level of knowledge does not have to be there as well. By the way my electronics professor was a Bubblehead too. He served on the diesel boats in the 1950's. He even made us learn tube theory. That guy knew his math every which way and then some. Me, if I do not use I lose it it seems. I have always admired peope who can take stuf like pre-calculus algebra and actually remember it. The Engineer on the A-fish was Tony Watkins and I still think he was the most intelligent human being I ever met. I envied the nukes and we A-ganger worked well with them even though we were called "Coners" once in awhile. But one thing we shared with our shipmates aft of frame 57 was our lack of liberty. I swear if I could do it all over again, I would strike a rate that got liberty as soon as the brow went over. Any one got a time machine handy?

Keep your crap running and clean knucledragger and you can ve the first guy over the brow as well. Well second we know the data systems guy is always first. :rotfl:

But seriously. I feel for you. Nuke stuff fascinated me but I joined unrated. I don't think it is even possible to strike a nuclear rating. I had to craw through glass practically to become an ET. In the end I had qualified all of their watchstations and been in for more than two yearswhen I managed to get to Orlando for BE&E. They played the game to send me TAD by making my orders show me returning between that and EW A school in Pensacola. I may have been the very first submariner to go there. I loved it and I think get much more out of it than I would have going to the Great Lakes since I was standing ESM watch most of the time. I think it would be the better school no matter since the other major watchstation for ETs was Inertial Navigation which wasn't a major forus of ET A school anyway.

From a gaming standpoint the best thing about my time in was being in the fire control party. I worked the plot and eventually became geoplot coordinator. It has been immensly valualble doing TMA but also in giving me a very good familiarity with the other areas. I also am grateful I spent a lot of time in/with sonar as that would have been my second rating choice. I actaully fit in better there as I am kind of a hippy/wild guy. The ETs were a little more straight/clean/geeky.

Anyway, I guess I can quit running off the mouth now. You guys just got me thinking back with your experiences

[Frame57]

Agree whole-heartedly RIP! You are right on. You cannot strike for nuke. I was in the "Subfarer" program which meant I basically got Sub school and then went right to a boat. The ST's and FT's had a full deck, but A-Div was shy three men, so that is where i landed. It was OK. The CAMS and O2 Genny were fun to work on, the rest was hydraulic or pneumatic repairs and maintenance. The only payback we had was when we gave non-quals one hell of a check out on the Trim and Drain, Steering and Diving and HMV systems. One favorite question was, "You are a molecule of sea water, explain how you become O2 in the boat. It covers a lot of systems to answer that one correctly. Hmmmm! Lemme see if i still remember...:up: