General Apology To Affected Creators (ca-24 Pack)

[martes86]

Hi all,

On behalf of Richi (creator of the CA-24 pack), I'd like to apologize to everyone, specially to all the creators who had their mods included in the pack without previous request for permission, for the great inconvenience this action has represented on the community.

This error was not intentional, it's derived from a misunderstanding of the modding netiquette clauses contained within any mod readme document, due to the fact that Richi's primary language is not English, and his understanding of it is nowhere near the level that me (or anyone else in this forum) may have, which is also the reason it's me writing this post and not him.

I'd like that this problem gets solved peacefully, in a friendly manner, as a show of the 24th's good faith, honesty and sincerity. That's why I'll also be sending individual private apologies to all the respective mod creators/teams that had their mods included in the aforementioned pack without previous permission, once I get a list with all the names.

To end this apology, I'd also like to recommend all mod creators (independent or within dev groups) that they explicitally include the modding netiquette clauses written by Hitman in their readme files not just with a web link, but by copying and pasting its contents directly into the documents, thus avoiding future misunderstandings of such clauses.

We are very sorry, and hope the damage can be repaired and the wounds healed.


Cheers :rock:

[Mush Martin]

English can be a tough language to understand,

take the simple sentence.....

I didnt say he took it.

one sentence in the written language has six totally different meanings
in the spoken language.
Have a look at the inflection by saying the emphasis
on the word in bold out loud, you will see that emphasis or inflection carries
totally different meanings that are not expressed in the written word.

I didnt say he took it.
I didnt say he took it.
I didnt say he took it.
I didnt say he took it.
I didnt say he took it.
I didnt say he took it.

I am not familiar at all with this issue the modders involved nor
any of the readme's nor the specific language contained theirin.
I would however offer that in cases such as this it is highly possible
for a legitimate misunderstanding. I would advise diplomacy and
understanding when dealing with cross cultural misunderstandings.

Regards to all
M

[Jimbuna]

Hi all,

On behalf of Richi (creator of the CA-24 pack), I'd like to apologize to everyone, specially to all the creators who had their mods included in the pack without previous request for permission, for the great inconvenience this action has represented on the community.

This error was not intentional, it's derived from a misunderstanding of the modding netiquette clauses contained within any mod readme document, due to the fact that Richi's primary language is not English, and his understanding of it is nowhere near the level that me (or anyone else in this forum) may have, which is also the reason it's me writing this post and not him.

I'd like that this problem gets solved peacefully, in a friendly manner, as a show of the 24th's good faith, honesty and sincerity. That's why I'll also be sending individual private apologies to all the respective mod creators/teams that had their mods included in the aforementioned pack without previous permission, once I get a list with all the names.

To end this apology, I'd also like to recommend all mod creators (independent or within dev groups) that they explicitally include the modding netiquette clauses written by Hitman in their readme files not just with a web link, but by copying and pasting its contents directly into the documents, thus avoiding future misunderstandings of such clauses.

We are very sorry, and hope the damage can be repaired and the wounds healed.


Cheers :rock:

@martes86

~Salute~ http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Rockin Robbins]

Post deleted as requested by Lurker_hlb3 and persuasion by many (including, but not limited to Neal and Kapt Lehmann) whom I respect.

[FIREWALL]

@ Rockin Robbin

Did they use one of your mods or one you were part of ?

[martes86]

We'll see. Denying that Operation Monsun was any part of the mod is not something that unfamiliarity with language or netiquette can explain. Neither is specifically leaving Operation Monsun's name out of an apparently voluminous credits list. And you have refused to deal specifically with these issues after your pronouncement that Op Monsun was no part of the mod and that settles everything.

I denied OM being part of it because I was told it wasn't. That was before I spoke to Richi on the phone, because that turned out to be a misunderstanding between Richi and me. I thought it was 0 presence, but then he explained to me that he got the U-Boats from there, but that it was his knowledge that those units were mere translations from SH3 to SH4, so they weren't actually OM's property (not made from scratch), and even then, he's told me that OM is in the credits, same as GWX.


You'll need the help of all the real modders to fix the incompatibility problems inherent in attempting to combine mods as complicated as GWX and Operation Monsun. The problems already exposed show an alarming lack of knowledge about both. If it were easy Lurker and the GWX crew would already have put it together.

Well, from what Richi told us, GWX didn't actually want his help, they just wanted him as tester, but he wanted to do constructive things. It's obvious to me that, if the current GWX team wants to make a pack for SH4, they're never gonna help Richi since they don't have the time nor the will to help the "competition" so to speak to do just the same thing on 2 bands. That's why he started to do the pack himself in the first place. And the pack may be full of bugs at first, but so was SH3 when first released. I like to think that the few guys we have trying to do something, have a talent to show, even if it's not the likings of some.


So for you, hoping isn't enough. What is needed now is honesty and fewer excuses. You seem to be unloading responsibility on the modders that were victimized by claiming that they had improper readmes. Bad move there. First you have to take specific responsibility for your own actions, without excuses. Then a lot of hard work will be necessary to determine if this mod can even be made to work reasonably well. This hard work will require cooperation with Lurker and GW, who are both working to capacity now.

I think I've showed quite a lot of honesty just by creating this thread, or even just "confessing" that the U-Boats are from OM instead of blindly denying it... I don't think you see apologies like this here every day, but it seems I'm always apologizing to you people. In fact, we supported GWX when the whole UBRS issue, and we even deleted the download links, and apologized for any damage caused. And like that, a few more.

But still, here we are, questioned again as a whole, questioned our honesty and truth of word... we had a similar issue with a previous SubClub administration... they claimed some of our mates cheated, but it wasn't true, and still we got burnt for it. Of course, the community as a whole felt we were not welcome, so we were forced to withdraw our official participation for a year... I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that here, but our people are a bit annoyed already to always be questioned as if we were the bad guys.

And no, I'm not unloading responsability, but how would it feel to you if they blamed you for not properly understanding an advanced text in arabic, for example, even if you had studied it just for a few days. Well, a similar situation is presented here... of course, if you are of those that think the whole world should speak English, well, I'll just give up.


That may prove impossible as unbreaking a glass.

Things are impossible only to those that want them to stay that way.
I like to think that we still have a chance, at least, until I see otherwise.

You're free to doubt my intentions or my words all you want, but in the end, reasonable people will see that I'm actually trying to solve this problem instead of, as you say, unloading responsabilities on others.

[Onkel Neal]

Give Martes a chance, he's got a solid reputation and he is expending a great deal of effort to resolve this fairly.

thanks
Neal

[martes86]

And if I understand correctly, Martes is not responsible for any of this. He's only helping by being the "link" between the different parties, so it's really not fair to put the blame on him.
Let the people concerned deal with this via PM and all will be ok :yep:

Yep, I'm just the messenger... remember that up until a few days ago, I didn't know what did "OM" stand for. If Richi could, I'd let him do the talk. But that's the problem, he wouldn't be able to defend himself at the level of English I have, his words would be misunderstood, and he might even get banned... I've seen it before. So I'm doing the task of a fair defense. :D

[Jimbuna]

Give Martes a chance, he's got a solid reputation and he is expending a great deal of effort to resolve this fairly.

thanks
Neal

Agreed http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[Flick]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Stevens
Give Martes a chance, he's got a solid reputation and he is expending a great deal of effort to resolve this fairly.

thanks
Neal


:up: Mix you have my support as you know. You were always upfront and honest about things.

Salute!

[martes86]

Thanks Flick, it's nice to see you around here. :yep:

Cheers

[Madox58]

I will stand beside you Sir!
PM sent!
:up:

[Orion2012]

Give Martes a chance, he's got a solid reputation and he is expending a great deal of effort to resolve this fairly.

thanks
Neal

Couldn't agree more, I've had some of my mods (not SH4 but TESIV:Oblivion) used without permission and at least for me it wasn't so much that I cared that they were used, it was more about no one asking. At least the right moves are being taken to rectify this problem.

[lurker_hlb3]

As the “one and only” developer of Operations Monsun I am still patiently waiting for a formal request by way of PM to use OM files. When that happens I will see what can be worked out.



For the 24th Flotilla developer please review the permissions section of the Operation Monsun readme file that is in the first post of this thread


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134922




Lurker.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

To all who are directly involved. I'll have to make my response(s) tomorrow night (Wednesday) U.S. Central time due to real life / work matters.

(Am referring to public and PM communications.)

[Uber Gruber]

I'd just like to say its quite sunny outside so i'm off for a stroll whilst i eat my apple.

See you in a while.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Look, its the dawning of a new era for Subsim. A time for the burying of hatchets and the cleaning of slates. Lets resolve this peacefully, and move on. Them freighters aint gonna sink themselves!

[Xantrokoles]

As the “one and only” developer of Operations Monsun I am still patiently waiting for a formal request by way of PM to use OM files. When that happens I will see what can be worked out.



For the 24th Flotilla developer please review the permissions section of the Operation Monsun readme file that is in the first post of this thread


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134922




Lurker.

That's 'all' guys:yep:

[juanchez]

Ok guys, Mix just apologized on behalf of Richi and I'm pretty sure he'll be sending out all the formal requests very soon.

Please, don't be too hard on Richi. I've known him for a few years now in the 24th and just take my word when I say he's really a nice guy with no bad intentions at all. I'm positive he never tried neither stealing anything nor taking credit for other people's work.

He's a generous guy, always working hard for getting us a better game in every sense, believe me.

For you native English speaking people here: just try to put on his feet trying to read a big read me file in a foreign lenguage you don't understand at all.

He made a mistake, no bad intentions at all. Apologies are on their way. Let's move forward and enjoy his, after all, awesome job. All due credits will be posted soon, as they should have been right from the start.

And let's even improve his work, you talented modders here.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

To Martes86 and 24th Flotilla Staff,

Until now, I have been unaware of the 24th Flotilla history that you mention, and I can tell you definitively that no element of GWX Mod Team decision making has been influenced by individual nationalities or by the fact that Richi was from the 24th Flotilla. Heck, the GWX website has a direct link to the 24th Flotilla website. This has been a non-issue for the GWX Mod Team, and we don't understand why you feel that it is.

Infact I personally saw to it that the 24th Flotilla, and its representatives amongst the GWX testing crew (Beltza, Richi, and Caminante) were given special attention as far s I could offer it. (For the 24th Flotilla I personally posted developmental updates to their public forums until I was no longer able to log into those forums.)

The ONLY interest the above representatives expressed to me related to translation of the GWX mod to the Spanish language. For this matter we gave much support.

Concerning Richi's wishes to be involved in the development of GWX (as mentioned my Martes86):
At no time did Richi or his fellows message me about other 'creative matters.' It is true that they were invited to join the GWX Testing Crew once we'd reached an appropriate stage of development. It is also true that given the developmental cohesion we had attained, and the proximity to having a viable release, adding further developers to the mixture would have made for much confusion.

We (the GWX Mod Team... and obviously others such as Lurker_HLB3) believe that taking without asking is wrong. It is also a simple concept that knows no borders and knows no language barrier. The simple act of asking permission would have prevented MOST of this problem by allowing the involved source modders to assist with crediting.


Though much remains to be reviewed via PM with the affected parties, we appreciate the apology, and continue to hope for a positive solution. However, the veracity of Richi's intent must stand up to the ongoing exploration currently playing out via PM.

Though it is most certainly unpleasant stuff, an overly swift judgement in any direction would only result in an incomplete solution and invites repetition of similar situations in the days ahead.

[Flick]

Well let me put it to all you ladies and gents here I have been around this mountain prior to 2002. :) There have been ups and downs meaining ********. I have been a 110% supporter here and a moderator at http://www.subclub.info/phpBB_subclub/index.php

Where we play monthly on line mp games and I dont see any from here playing there seeing that Onkel Neal owns and pays for that location. There have been mistakes made at subclub http://www.subclub.info/phpBB_subclub/index.php and posts have been made apogising for the errors. Lets get down to humanrian ers.
I can and will back up and support Martes as he is that what he says will deliver and this is to all Kpt. Lehmann and BigBoywooly. Who I havent seen at Subclub posting a reply to ?????? we had. :) Let me know if you both have a problem posting at subcub...

BTW there have been changes made there as to well you know what I mean :)

MODERATOR EDIT: Acceptable language

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Flick,

I think many of us would like to be members of many forums, and to be involved everywhere. However, there are only so many hours in the day.

In the meantime, we all have to be patient with this process.

[Flick]

I agree Kpt. Lehmann and I do try to find some time in the day to be proactive at Subclub and here seeing Neal is paying the bill for both forums.:)

[martes86]

Hi everyone,

I know lots of you people have been expecting news on this mod pack. The fact is, we expected things to run much smoother, but this hasn't been the case.

While we were able to gain OM's trust (if you tell the truth, then there's nothing to fear) and made some good friends there in the process, things have been going slowly with GWX's team. Despite my attempts to show them we (me and Richi) were being 100% honest with them, it seems my claims were not being completely convincing. And yesterday I received confirmation that we were explicitly denied permission to use GWX2's campaign. It hasn't been a well received decision, but we accept it, and act accordingly.


Therefore, I sadly announce that, while Richi is already working on a replacement based on Rubini's files (which he has already granted us permission to use), we're definitely retiring the previous pack. Since he's going on vacation, he won't be able to seriously start working on it until september, and a release should be expected in a date after Octber 1st, but that will be subject to change depending on all already known factors in modding.

But it's not all lost, since OM v4's beta is already out, it should do fairly well at replacing the gap our pack is temporarily leaving. And since they've happily offered us their help in both development and testing, things should go a bit faster with our own pack, now that we're looking at a fluid cooperation between the 24th, OM, and all the other groups within the Silent Hunter Modding community.

We regret all the "hype" created around the pack, but rest assured, it will be released properly, just at a later date.
We also regret that we couldn't reach a satisfactory agreement with GWX, but we've always had a nice relation with them, so we hope things can go better in the foreseeable future in terms of creative sharing, and that this little problem doesn't stain the good friendship we had.
BTW, congratulations to Privateer in his new posting, best of luck at it.

Cheers

[stabiz]

:up:

[Der Teddy Bar]

yesterday I received confirmation that we were explicitly denied permission to use GWX2's campaign.
While I do not condone the way in which Richi went about his work showing very little respect and common courtesy GWX have missed the chance to show that they were about the community.

[Onkel Neal]

yesterday I received confirmation that we were explicitly denied permission to use GWX2's campaign.
While I do not condone the way in which Richi went about his work showing very little respect and common courtesy GWX have missed the chance to show that they were about the community.

Possibly. It is just as likely that GWX may benefit the community just as much by retaining the rights to their work and shaping it into a mod to be released in the future.

However, all sides have agreed on a resolution and that is significant.

[Der Teddy Bar]

Possibly. It is just as likely that GWX may benefit the community just as much by retaining the rights to their work and shaping it into a mod to be released in the future.

However, all sides have agreed on a resolution and that is significant.
I see it otherwise as doing so would not disadvantage GWX in any way to shaping this into their future release. In the mean time people could be enjoying this work for the 6-9 months that it will take until GWX re-release it in a mod package for SH4.
In the meantime an existing mod has been pulled from the shelf and has to be reworked which does disadvantage the community.