Unbelievable merchant gun accuracy!

[ridgewayranger]

Hi Everyone,
I submerged 4000yds from a merchantman and started an attack. He turned to present his stern (great eyesight!) and I could not catch him so I surfaced and went to flank. At about 1500yds in almost total darkness his searchlight came on anh he opened fire. I was bows on but he hit me with 3 rounds. I was Kaput.
This was in 1941. Merchant ship gunnery was notoriously inaccurate, firing over open sights with a 1914 4" and probably only one trained R.N. gunnery rating on board. I hit him 4 times, normally enough to send the crew scuttling for the boats.
My question is which file contains the AI gunnery details, and can it be changed to something more realistic? Also, why do merchant ships never seem to slow down or stop after being repeatedly hit by shells in the engine room and stern areas?
Finally, what are the statistics on Uboats being sunk by merchantship gunfire?
RR

[Kielhauler1961]

I had a similar experience recently. Spotted an empire-type freighter at about 16,000m and plotted an end-around for a submerged attack (weather was bright sunshine and a glassy smooth sea). At about 14,000m I noticed he had altered course and it soon became clear he was zig-zagging. At that long range he had seen me.:o Through the UZO he was just a spot on the horizon.

So plan A went overboard and I shaped course towards him at full ahead on the surface. At 12,000m he started shooting at me and the third or fourth round actually splashed about 200m away from my boat!

So I started zigging myself, closing the range all the time and taking minor damage from near misses. Finallly got him submeged with two fast mags at 600m. Phew!

This took place in August 1940, 150nm west of Gibraltar.

@ridgewayranger: you're absolutely right about merchant guns' crews, one trained gunner and a second-hand 4" at best. Looks like we've stumbled on a new breed of ship: the merchant-battleship!

[Myxale]

Maybe It was just unfortunate for you guys. I just recently pulled off a surface attack and the Merch fired a dizen times but all were misses or hairy near misses!:arrgh!:

I don't think it's to far fetched. Remember some Civil ships did have Navy sailors on them to do the gunning.

[UnderseaLcpl]

That must be that same guy from my post. Was it a "Large Merchant" with a stern gun?

[ridgewayranger]

Hi,
Yep Undersealcpl,. that's the one. Of course, all defensively equipped merchant ships had the gun on the stern, something to do with the Geneva convention I believe, and no Myxale, I don't think it is at all reasonable. They usually carried one DEMS gunner who had to train a civilian crew, not an easy task. Rangefinding was by guess and by God. Constantly adjusting overs and unders until you had it, then relying on the trainer to point in the right direction, and it does have to be spot on with an end on target. I was struck 3 times in 3 rounds in the forward tubes, not a pretty sight from the receiving end!!!!
RR

[Brag]

I have never heard or read about any RL U-boats engaging armed merchies on the surface.

[rob89]

A while ago a series of books aimed at 12-15 year olds was published called "Warpath".
One of the stories was about a DEMS gunner in the Pedastal mission to Malta but at the start of the story his ship is torpedoed while in an Atlantic convoy.
The U-Boat surfaces to finish off what the they think is a crippled merchant ship but the DEMS gunners manage to fire 3 shots at it. 1 misses but 2 hit the conning tower. Sub dives and is depth charged by a Sunderland patrolling the English coast.

Dunno if there is any truth in it or it is complete fabrication but its quite cool none the less.

[Subtype Zero]

I submerged 4000yds from a merchantman and started an attack. He turned to present his stern (great eyesight!) and I could not catch him so I surfaced and went to flank. At about 1500yds in almost total darkness his searchlight came on and he opened fire. I was bows on but he hit me with 3 rounds. I was Kaput.
Yoda says, "Patience, has not, this Kaleun!" ;)

Joking aside, after being spotted, you lost the tactical initiative. A better course after being spotted, IMHO, would be to plot his course, run ahead, plot an intercept course, and then try again.

As far as his eyesight, you were running flank and probably creating a large wake for him to aim his searchlight for. Running at flank speed is also probably very noisy--sound travels well over water!

[predavolk]

I have never heard or read about any RL U-boats engaging armed merchies on the surface.

This did indeed happen several times during the war. Hitler's U-Boat War, Vol 2 (you know, THE U-Boat War book by Clay) mentions several incidences where U-Boats took on armed merchants. Most of them ended in stalemates with the U-Boat retreating. At least one ended with the U-Boat winning, and probably a couple ended with the U-Boat taking a hit or two (conning tower?). IIRC, which I'm pretty sure I do as I really like gunning incidents. Most (all) of the above occured in the South Atlantic.

[BasilY]

My experience in GWX saids that the merchants, almost all of them armed after 42, are dangerous foes. They can even hit me at 8000+ feets away with day light. And they can be very accurate at times.

But don't get me wrong I still use my deck gun to kill, But only when attacking single ships or two ship convoys (or convoy stragglers), and at 3500-4500 distance, I will fire while maintaining distance, (running backwards when necessary), I will try to pour 15-20 shots at the victim, observe at least 5 good water line hits and got parascope depth, It will take about 30 minutes for a doom ship to sunk, after 30 minutes, the ship's probably not sinking, I will have to consider a second attack.

One more thing, no attack with wind above 4 knots. The merchants are just as accurate while you can't hit anything more than a 1000 fts.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Joking aside, after being spotted, you lost the tactical initiative.

My arse. Even fully-trained destroyer crews had a hard time hitting a U-boat. I will have to consult my books for a quote on the reference but several times DD's could not hit a U-boat even when there were several of them circling and the U-boat was crippled, hence the popularity of ramming. Shooting things is not as easy as it sounds. Try this; place a can on a fencepost or on the ground 30 feet away. Now shoot it as you are walking (in any direction) in broad daylight. Use a rifle,pistol whatever. Unless you head straight towards it or away from it you may have a lot of difficulty. Now imagine the can is moving and it is dark and the can is shooting back. and you are on a boat.

It can be done, but only by trained, talented or lucky individuals. Merchants are entirely too accurate in any sh3 game. Except for merchant AA gunners, they are quite resonable.

[Sailor Steve]

That's trying to explain things the hard way. Peter Padfield, in his book Guns At Sea, described naval gunnery as being like trying to hit a ping-pong ball rolling across a mantle at twelve feet with a pistol while sitting in a rocking chair being rocked at random by someone else.

But this goes for both sides. The real reality is that a merchant is not likely to hit a target as small as a submarine, but gamers want to use that to ignore the fact that once the merchant showed that he had the gun to shoot with a submarine captain was not going to risk the lives of his crew by telling himself "They can't hit me from this range, so I'll just stay here and shoot it out with them!"

No, they shouldn't see you on a dark night from any reasonable range. You should be able to sneak up and use torpedoes. But it's just like with the planes - the idea is to make you behave historically and use the submarine like a submarine.

[Jimbuna]

....and to cap it all off. As rhe war progresses, the crews become veteran then elite with a correspondingly amount of improvement in their accuracy/ability.

http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/whistle.gif

[predavolk]

Yes, that is a realistic aspect. In reality, they were terrible shots at any medium-long range. Even destroyers at long range. But the reality was that unlike in the game, even a single hit could breach the pressure hull and ruin your ability to dive. And that was BIG trouble!

So I think it's a compromise based on what the game engine can and can't do.

[mcf1]

I have never heard or read about any RL U-boats engaging armed merchies on the surface.
At the beginning of this video you can see one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vQ8uWHo4uw

[Jimbuna]

...and the band played ' Believe it if you like' :lol:

Propaganda footage me thinks :hmm:

[antikristuseke]

I was under the impression that 1500 yars in naval gunnery is a little past point blank.

[Sailor Steve]

I was under the impression that 1500 yars in naval gunnery is a little past point blank.
It depends on the gunnery. For a gun that can range out to 35,000 yards or more being directed by a stereoscopic rangefinder with the prisms 40 feet apart and a large radar mattress mounted more than 100 feet in the air, and the target itself is almost 300 yards long; then yeah, 1500 yards is pretty close.

For an open gun mount with a 10,000-yard range and a rangefinder consisting of a small telescope with lines drawn on the lens shooting at a target 100 yards long or less, then 1500 yards is a very long distance.

[Leandros]

Accuracy is one thing - staying power another. I mean to have read about a sub (on U.S. east coast) using 60 rounds to try to stop a merchant. And it still went on......:|\\ ....the merchant.

[Kielhauler1961]

When I was driving a type IXC, some time ago, I found a single C3 cargo just north of the Azores. Put my last two torpedoes into him and, although he had a severe list to starboard and speed reduced from 9 to 1 knots, it wouldn't sink. After about 24 hours of following, I used my last 15 rounds of 105 deck gun ammo...nothing! All into the waterline. Sprayed him with the remaining 20mm AA ammo in desperation, still nothing. It eventually sank when the sea state got a bit rougher but did I get credit for the kill? Nahh!!:nope:

[Jimbuna]

When I was driving a type IXC, some time ago, I found a single C3 cargo just north of the Azores. Put my last two torpedoes into him and, although he had a severe list to starboard and speed reduced from 9 to 1 knots, it wouldn't sink. After about 24 hours of following, I used my last 15 rounds of 105 deck gun ammo...nothing! All into the waterline. Sprayed him with the remaining 20mm AA ammo in desperation, still nothing. It eventually sank when the sea state got a bit rougher but did I get credit for the kill? Nahh!!:nope:

That's because all the damage points weren't used until it started taking weather related damage.

The game engine treats flooding and battle damage the same.