Targeting Problems

[Monk29]

Fellas,

New to sub simulators, I am coming over from FPSs. First off, thanks to Rockin Robbin, WernerSobe, and a host of "Old Timers" for thier training videos, posts and general support of us Noobs. If I had to rely on the manual, this game would have been in the garbage a week ago and I would be back to COD4 *cringe*

I am using manual targeting, and making some progress. However, I am running into a consistent problem with my solution. Despite being at, or about 90 degrees on my target, firing my torps at or about 0 degree, I am either missing by half a boat length to the rear, or just catching the targets ass. If I am not firing 5-10 degrees forward, I don't seem to have a chance. Range and speed aren't the issues, I am blowing this on the AOB, and my IQ is too low to grasp why. I believe I am following the correct targeting steps as outlined in my SubSim Training. If I am not sitting at exactly 90 degrees, do I fudge the launch, or is the sub's targeting gizmos supposed to be making the adjustments for me? What in the math, or targeting process I am missing?

Thanks

*You guys ruined Das Boot for me. Never seen it until I started playing this game and after having seen the "Das Boot plays SH4" videos on YouTube. I couldn't take the first 20 minutes serious because those videos were so damn funny.

[XLjedi]

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track, that doesn't mean you point the aiming wire at 0°. If you do that, your torpedo won't track 0°, it'll veer to the left or right 5-10°. If you entered no solution at all... it'll track a straight line down the 0° gyro path, but you'd have to point the aiming wire with a 10°-20° lead for a better point of impact. In which case you've just totally ignored the TDC completely and you're playing as if WWI technology is all you have to work with.

To use the TDC, you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

[Schroeder]

If you are using MK10 torpedoes you have to set the target's speed to 1 knot (1.5 at heavy seas) faster than it actually is. At least that's what I have to do here and then I hit straight where I want to.:up:


MK14s should work fine with using the real speed of your target.

[Feltan]

Remember:

1. Do not turn the TDC on to track the target.

2. The interior angles of a triangle are 180 degrees:
a. Your approach is 90 degrees.
b. Your bearing to the target is (picking one) 20 degrees -- that is what your periscope should be at, and the line in the periscope becomes your "sight" just like a rifle. Fire the torpedoes as the target crosses the line.
c. The AOB of the target is 90 degrees minus whatever you pick in step b above. If you use 20 (or 340) degrees, the AOB will be 70 degrees either port or starbord depending on which way the ship is crossing your bow.

3. Set up for a 1000 yard shot. Sit there and wait. Adjust range to target to 1000 yards.

4. Be sure to "double pump" the data into the TDC. For some odd reason, the AOB never gets transmitted correctly with just one click.

If you do these things, and the target does not change course or speed, you should hit with darn near 100% of your torpedoes. Using this technique gives me well over a 90% hit rate.

Regards,
Feltan

[Urge]

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track...
you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

What, exactly, is the relationship between speed and the 10° to 20° advance you enter when inputting range? From watching Rockin Robins Dick O'kane tutorials I had the impression that it didn't matter. I have had both great success and frustrating failure using this method and haven't been sure why I missed when it seemed like a sure thing. But hey, I'm a noob and I probably screwed up. I have been using 20° for all firing solutions. Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

[Feltan]

Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

Yes it does.

There is a lot of "play" in this type of firing solution. Things don't need to be exact, and a certain amount of error is allowable. However, error adds up.

If you pull the range indicator all the way to the right, you are probably Ok for a 1000 to 1500 yard shot. If you are at 5-600, adjust the range to reflect that.

Regards,
Feltan

[XLjedi]

Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

Yes it does.

There is a lot of "play" in this type of firing solution. Things don't need to be exact, and a certain amount of error is allowable. However, error adds up.

If you pull the range indicator all the way to the right, you are probably Ok for a 1000 to 1500 yard shot. If you are at 5-600, adjust the range to reflect that.

Regards,
Feltan

No it doesn't... :nope:

I've said it almost til I'm blue in the face; a zero gyro angle shot is not influenced by distance. If the Earth we're a 2D flat plane, you could hit the target out to infinity.

[XLjedi]

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track...
you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

What, exactly, is the relationship between speed and the 10° to 20° advance you enter when inputting range? From watching Rockin Robins Dick O'kane tutorials I had the impression that it didn't matter. I have had both great success and frustrating failure using this method and haven't been sure why I missed when it seemed like a sure thing. But hey, I'm a noob and I probably screwed up. I have been using 20° for all firing solutions. Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

Notice in the following plot of a Mark18 torpedo travelling at 30kts, if a ship (at any distance) is travelling at 6kts, 11° is the aiming point that would yield a 0° gyro angle intercept.

http://xl-logic.com/mobo/tutorial_pics/zero_gyro.PNG

When you say you're using 20° what are you talking about? ...sounds like you're confusing aiming lead with the AoB input. In the example above, the AoB is like 80° Port. If you're using the O'Kane method your input for AoB is always either 80°S or 80°P for a target moving at 6kts. The AoB sharpens as the target speed increases because the aiming angle gets larger (like 20° instead of 11°).

[XLjedi]

Let's just make it really simple...

Forget the O'Kane method. It's just a way to make the TDC point close to a 0° gyro angle anyway, and if you're always going to take up a 90° position abeam the target true course, you might as well just ignore the TDC completly and just sail out of port with the default 0 speed 0° bearing settings. Ever accidentally launch a fish in port and notice how it swims straight out the bow of the sub? ...that's a perfect 0° gyro shot.

All you need now is the lead angle to position your aiming wire for various target speeds. A simple thumb-rule formula for a Mark18 doing 30kts aimed at targets traveling between 6 and 12kts would be: =2*S-1

That's 2 times the target speed minus 1. So for a ship doing 6kts its: 2*6-1 = 11°

So with a 0° gyro setting (torpedo swims straight) I'm in position (90° abeam the target course). The target is moving at 7kts. So I point my aiming wire at 2*7-1 = 13° and I wait. As a target point of interest passes my aiming wire (perhaps the smoke stack), I mash the launch button. ...fish swims out and smacks the target right under the stack.

Obviously, if the target approaches from the right, I'm leading 14° to the right (0+14 = 14°). If the target approaches from the left I'm leading 14° to the left (360-14 = 346°).

If you're using a torpedo with a different top speed, just give me the torpedo speed and I'll figure a new formula. I think there's a chart already done that has all the lead angles for various topedo/target speeds.

[Feltan]

Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

Yes it does.

There is a lot of "play" in this type of firing solution. Things don't need to be exact, and a certain amount of error is allowable. However, error adds up.

If you pull the range indicator all the way to the right, you are probably Ok for a 1000 to 1500 yard shot. If you are at 5-600, adjust the range to reflect that.

Regards,
Feltan

No it doesn't... :nope:

I've said it almost til I'm blue in the face; a zero gyro angle shot is not influenced by distance. If the Earth we're a 2D flat plane, you could hit the target out to infinity.

Calm down. We are talking about two different things.

The zero bearing attack, and the constant bearing attack (called the O'Kane method on these forums) are not the same.

Regards,
Feltan

[XLjedi]

Calm down. We are talking about two different things.

The zero bearing attack, and the constant bearing attack (called the O'Kane method on these forums) are not the same.

Regards,
Feltan

They're the same... I was the one that explained to em how to do it. One of the main things Rockin Robbins always says is distance doesn't matter. Unless you're talking about a different O'Kane method. Actually, technically, we don't really do O'Kane and Morton justice with what we've come to call the O'Kane method. ...and I've also blasted em for blindly setting AoB to 90° when 75°-80° would introduce far less error. Is he still suggesting 90°? O'Kane's probably rolling in his grave...

Only reason I suggested calling it that was to give O'Kane a nod for his comment about how he learned from Morton to hold the bearing constant as target points of interest passed the aiming wire. Why not call it the Morton Method? ...all Morton was doing was carrying over a practice from WWI technology. O'Kane seemed to use it with the most success. It was really more of a thank you to O'Kane for passing the info along in his writings.

The only thing the TDC is really being used for in the O'Kane method is related to the fact that it already knows the torpedo speeds, so you don't need to look up the lead angle in a table. It's a shame if folks are using 90° for the AoB setting and introducing silly error, in an otherwise straightforward targetting method.

[Rockin Robbins]

The only thing that keeps a constant bearing in the Dick O'Kane attack is the constant bearing from the torpedo to the target. And since you're thankfully not aboard the torpedo to measure that.....there's a point there somewhere. In the Dick O'Kane attack the range absolutely has no bearing on the solution so long as the torpedo has the range to get as far as the target is away. It matters not if the target is 500 or 2500 yards away. The firing solution is the same. And I have hit targets 2500 yards away with it.

Actually ANY torpedo that will hit its target maintains its target on a constant bearing throughout its trip from acquiring course to impact. Therefore, from the point of view of the torpedo ALL attacks are constant bearing attacks.

Define constant bearing attack so I can understand why you're calling a Dick O'Kane attack that. I suggest you check out my tutorial video (http://files.filefront.com/Dick+OKane+targeting+video7z/;10643361;/fileinfo.html) to ensure that you're right. I'm curious what you are talking about there!

[XLjedi]

I think he's referring to holding the aiming wire constant, ie constant bearing attack

Are you still suggesting people use a 90° AoB as the default for the O'Kane method. That should be like 75°.

[Rockin Robbins]

@aaronblood: My instructions now clearly state that the AoB is equal to 90 minus the lead angle. They've been that way for months, since our conversation after I posted the seminar tutorial and you explained how it was really a blown attack that worked because the solutions overlapped.

[Rockin Robbins]

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track...
you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).
What, exactly, is the relationship between speed and the 10° to 20° advance you enter when inputting range? From watching Rockin Robins Dick O'kane tutorials I had the impression that it didn't matter. I have had both great success and frustrating failure using this method and haven't been sure why I missed when it seemed like a sure thing. But hey, I'm a noob and I probably screwed up. I have been using 20° for all firing solutions. Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).A couple of pictures will be worth 1000 words. Why does the range not matter in a Dick O'Kane (fleet boat or U-Boat) or Fast-90 (U-Boat) attack?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Manual%20TDC%20Range/OKanemethodanimation.gif

The green line is your lead angle for a certain target speed. As long as you fire the torpedo as the target passes the line you WILL hit the target at any range. Here four targets get four separately fired torpedoes and they all hit. The correctness of aaronblood's and my statements is obvious and beyond question. See?

Now, how are the lead angles calculated? How can you pick an appropriate lead angle? In practice for anything 12 knots and above I use 20º and a slow target at an average 6 knots gets a 10º lead angle with fast settings on Mark 14s. Here's a chart by gutted calculating the perfect lead angle so the torpedo strikes a ship at a perfect right angle if your course is at right angles to the track and you fire with a zero gyro angle (the torpedo goes straight up the zero bearing to the target).
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/OKane90_FiringAngles.png

These angles are rounded to the nearest half degree. There is a problem here. American torpedoes have a very high dud ratio when striking at exactly 90º. It is actually useful to use a slightly different lead angle than the chart indicates and hit the target before or after he bears dead ahead. Let me explain. Our target is moving at 12 knots. The chart says fire the torp up the zero bearing and shoot at 14½º lead angle. But if we do that, the torpedo hits at a perfect right angle and might probably be a dud.

Let's enter the 12 knots into the TDC speed. Now we'll purposely pick a 20º sighting angle and press send range/bearing. The TDC figures out the lead angle from that and fires the torpedo up the 20-14½º or 5½º bearing. The torpedo strikes the target at 90-5½ =84½º and it is much more likely to explode. I could draw it out, but I hope that isn't necessary.

This should lay to rest any doubts you might have and let you understand why we dispense with the chart altogether and just ballpark our lead angles. The speed input into the TDC determines the course the torpedo takes anyway. Our lead angle only serves to let us input the correct AoB and aim with the crosshair for the exact part of the ship we wish to harm.

[XLjedi]

OK... that's the way it should be done. :up:

I s'pose people just aren't catching on that we're using the TDC to compute a lead angle for a 0°-gyro shot. The only thing we've done is eliminate a lookup table for different torpedo/target speeds.

We should do an advanced O'Kane method that allows folks to approach from different angles other than 90°. Then the torpedo advance would actually produce an ever-so-small error associated with the distance estimate. I'd still just set it to 1000-2000 and not worry about it though. You might get a kick out of watching your torpedo turn into the target from a 45° approach angle.

[Monk29]

RR, great tutoral, first time viewing it. Frankly, I have been using the DO method since I saw (and stayed awake, no card game here) your brief posted on the Video Turtoral: TDC + PK Adv thread. The DO Method has produced the most kills for me thus far. I guess my frustration has be with my failure to produce a solution through the TDC that gets me the same results. I would like to be able to snap a guy in half using the step by step method briefed by WernerSobe (as in make the TDC work for me) in his second TDC video. I usually save at first contact, so I give the by the book targeting a chance and then to switch to the DO Method to get effects on target.

Thanks for the help RR, aaron and felt.

[Feltan]

I think he's referring to holding the aiming wire constant, ie constant bearing attack...

I was, and also not necessarily at 90 degrees to the target track, but re-reading what I wrote above I didn't make that very clear. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Regards,
Feltan

[McBeck]

Im gonna ask a stupid question....do you remember to open the torpedo doors by pressing "Q" ?

[Rockin Robbins]

Im gonna ask a stupid question....do you remember to open the torpedo doors by pressing "Q" ?
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: If you don't you miss astern, just like two people have said so far. And you have to allow 15 or 30 seconds for the doors to open before firing, too!

Not opening the torpedo doors can ruin ANY attack unless the target has an AoB of 0 or 180 or unless both you and the target are stationary.

Excellent catch!:up:

[XLjedi]

I think he's referring to holding the aiming wire constant, ie constant bearing attack...

I was, and also not necessarily at 90 degrees to the target track, but re-reading what I wrote above I didn't make that very clear. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Regards,
Feltan

Actually the real O'Kane method involved using the PK and calling the AoB to determine target true course... confirming the PK track and then just as he was ready to fire... turn the PK off and fire at points of interest as they passed the wire.

We've dumbed it down quite a bit...

O'Kane followed the standard approach course procedure target bearing 90° abeam (that's different than a 90° approach to the target true course) and used 3 second scope peeks to true up the PK track to the target.

If you follow this attack strategy then all inputs to the PK are indeed important, the order of importance is as follows:
1) Speed
2) AoB
3) Distance

You should prioritize your data gathering with the above order in the back of your mind. AoB and distance are very forgiving... speed is a solution killer.

The closer your gyro track is to 0° the less distance will have influence. The error that distance introduces is ONLY related to the torpedo advance. After the torpedo makes it's turn, and providing you're staying inside of a 20-30° gyro angle it's not too bad.

If you you've got speed and distance close AoB allows a lot of room for error... I think you're pretty safe in the +-15° to 20° range provided your within 1000yds.

[Mush Martin]

its been my experience that okanes method makes for a good searching
shot if your not certain of your data. what Dick realized is that a trigonometric
torpedo shot is really a function of interval (time) intersection.

the target will pass through the spot at some point the question is when.

Okanes method also has a tendency when used right on a difficult target.
(eg, Yamato) to walk the damage down the full length of the target ship,
a distribution of damage that is recomended and effective in game.

on the other hand spread shooting can be artistic and in the case of
shooting on formations more effective. as often as not when I target
multiple ships I will target one and shoot on two by estimating the
bearing difference in the offset angle created by the two targets seperation
along the line of advance.

this creates simultaneous first strike on multiple targets Precluding
enemy evasive maneuvers ruining your shot.

Thus !

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-04_0708.jpg
(btw this is an eight thousand yard shot)

[XLjedi]

Well shoot... after that patrol you ought to have the option to retire as an admiral and write a book! :lol:

BTW, I'm not impressed at all... I see you missed that last one. http://www.xl-logic.com/emoticon/bored2.gif

[Feltan]

I think he's referring to holding the aiming wire constant, ie constant bearing attack...

I was, and also not necessarily at 90 degrees to the target track, but re-reading what I wrote above I didn't make that very clear. Sorry if I caused confusion.

Regards,
Feltan

Actually the real O'Kane method involved using the PK and calling the AoB to determine target true course... confirming the PK track and then just as he was ready to fire... turn the PK off and fire at points of interest as they passed the wire.

We've dumbed it down quite a bit...

O'Kane followed the standard approach course procedure target bearing 90° abeam (that's different than a 90° approach to the target true course) and used 3 second scope peeks to true up the PK track to the target.

If you follow this attack strategy then all inputs to the PK are indeed important, the order of importance is as follows:
1) Speed
2) AoB
3) Distance

You should prioritize your data gathering with the above order in the back of your mind. AoB and distance are very forgiving... speed is a solution killer.

The closer your gyro track is to 0° the less distance will have influence. The error that distance introduces is ONLY related to the torpedo advance. After the torpedo makes it's turn, and providing you're staying inside of a 20-30° gyro angle it's not too bad.

If you you've got speed and distance close AoB allows a lot of room for error... I think you're pretty safe in the +-15° to 20° range provided your within 1000yds.

Thanks for that summary -- all of it quite familiar to me. Eugene Fluckey was my Godfather, and my father was a classmate of his. Had an opportunity to talk to him at length about this sort of thing before his health failed.

Regards,
Feltan

[XLjedi]

Thanks for that summary -- all of it quite familiar to me. Eugene Fluckey was my Godfather, and my father was a classmate of his. Had an opportunity to talk to him at length about this sort of thing before his health failed.

Regards,
Feltan

Cool... too bad we can't mount rockets on our boats like Fluckey did.

He was like a madman... always on the surface... that harbor attack... blowin up trains... I don't think he would've lived to long in the Bay of Biscay.

Very aggressive he was; different tactics for a different theater against a different adversary I s'pose. ...and I truly think he was pretty "Lucky" :lol:

I wish Fluckey would've given a little more detail on his targetting method in his book. But it seemed like he more often was doing semi-crazy stuff like sneaking past destroyers to shoot at fat stationary harbor targets, or assaulting cities with rocket attacks.

[Mush Martin]

BTW, I'm not impressed at all... I see you missed that last one. http://www.xl-logic.com/emoticon/bored2.gif
Sorry I was putting three in each of the first three, well maybe next time
on the promotion to neptune lord of all the seas.

[Rockin Robbins]

Thanks for that summary -- all of it quite familiar to me. Eugene Fluckey was my Godfather, and my father was a classmate of his. Had an opportunity to talk to him at length about this sort of thing before his health failed.

Regards,
Feltan
Fluckey revolutionized submarine warfare. He cannibalized his own scuttling charges to blow up that train, landing the only American troops on Japanese home soil during the war. Starting his career after boats were returning to Pearl full of torpedoes reporting no contacts, Fluckey bagged and incredible score, bringing more medalsto boat, crew and himself than any captain of the war.

Aside from the Dick O'Kane targeting technique, my whole strategy is based on a study of Fluckey's career.

I'll disagree with aaronblood. Fluckey wasn't a madman. Everything he did was calculated and nuanced. He took chances but not foolhardy chances. He realized that audacity is a great defense stategy. He would have done fine in the Bay of Biscay.

[XLjedi]

I'll disagree with aaronblood. Fluckey wasn't a madman. Everything he did was calculated and nuanced. He took chances but not foolhardy chances. He realized that audacity is a great defense stategy. He would have done fine in the Bay of Biscay.

Oh good grief...

I was speaking fuguratively of course! As you might say to a teammate in baseball after they finish a game 5 for 5, "You Madman!"

Fluckey's tactics would not have served him well trying to sail out of Biscay later in the war. I imagine he would've adapted to the situation. But if he just blazed out on the surface it would've killed him. As I said, different tactics, different theater, different adversary...

Shoot, I still use the Barb emblem as my avatar on the Ubi-Forum! ...use to have it here in my sig too.
Probably my favorite sub commander.

http://www.xl-logic.com/mobo/badges/barb_patch_64x64.png

That reminds me... I gotta redo the MoBo emblem and have Neal add it to my avatar here. I've never seen a ship's helm with 12 spokes; at most 10 and I've seen a lot with 8. Be kinda funny if I used 11 though... "Yeah, most helms have 10 spokes, mine goes to 11."

[ananas_987]

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track, that doesn't mean you point the aiming wire at 0°. If you do that, your torpedo won't track 0°, it'll veer to the left or right 5-10°. If you entered no solution at all... it'll track a straight line down the 0° gyro path, but you'd have to point the aiming wire with a 10°-20° lead for a better point of impact. In which case you've just totally ignored the TDC completely and you're playing as if WWI technology is all you have to work with.

To use the TDC, you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

How can i know when it's 10 degrees and when 20 degrees, i mean what the speed should be?

[ananas_987]

[quote=aaronblood]If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track, that doesn't mean you point the aiming wire at 0°. If you do that, your torpedo won't track 0°, it'll veer to the left or right 5-10°. If you entered no solution at all... it'll track a straight line down the 0° gyro path, but you'd have to point the aiming wire with a 10°-20° lead for a better point of impact. In which case you've just totally ignored the TDC completely and you're playing as if WWI technology is all you have to work with.

To use the TDC, you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

edit=removed

[Segwin]

(btw this is an eight thousand yard shot)

How often do you fire at this distance?

btw, very nice!

[John Channing]

Allow me just to pop into this thread for a second to say how proud I am to be associated with poeple of your calibre (all of you).

This is what Subsim is all about. Thanks.

Carry on.


JCC

[Urge]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mush Martin
(btw this is an eight thousand yard shot)


Segwin
How often do you fire at this distance?


Also, if using visual targeting, do you use an optics mod? What model torpedo are you using?
Are you using sonar only targeting? What mods are you using? Inquiring minds want to know.
Awesome shot(s)!

[Mush Martin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mush Martin
(btw this is an eight thousand yard shot)


Segwin
How often do you fire at this distance?

Also, if using visual targeting, do you use an optics mod? What model torpedo are you using?
Are you using sonar only targeting? What mods are you using? Inquiring minds want to know.
Awesome shot(s)!
The Torpedo Range (single missions) isnt like ingame
although some methods developed on the range do make
it into the regular game it comes down to a matter of personal
taste in your settings.

To answer litterally I shoot at those ranges about twenty times a week.

but its not necessarly even close to that in my career game.

what I am doing is working up strategies and spreads for massive opening
hits for maximum effect. (as described above)

back to the matter of personal tastes, if you keep map updates on
you can always get a good range.

as for what optical package I think Im using the second or third last
version of improved scopes. (v.1.4)

but the way the Stand off shooting works the scope optic doesnt play
out that far,

- determine the max range available for your tdc in my own
case that is 9850yds

assuming your at station keeping peridepth and silent
diagram a circle onto the map that extends exactly to that
range. in this example 9850yds.
Zoom into the max zoom and center the diagrammed circle
on that point on your sub where the line for the waypoint connects.
zoom back out,

using the scope lock feature repeatedly at each point
get the speed using the normal method
(mark , time , mark , measure , multiply distance over time)
as the target approaches the circle determine course in the
usual fashion, aob v visual and map marking for course.
as the target approaches the circle mark on the map,
determined by range gating the target in by jumping
back and forth between periscope lock and map screen.
I normally update range everytime I do, you have to make
sure AOB stays right, anyway with speed and course set
turn on the PK and when the target ship is crossing the circle
make a final range correction,
assuming I made sense here and you did it right the pk solution
on the attack screen should be kissing the nose of the target
icon and tracking it perfectly for the next five miles,

time to shoot,

I will be back with a few pics.
M

[edit] ps. torps were mk xiv's shot anticipates enemy response
but even at that they always pick up the torps really late.
I think partly because the formation is at a more realistic
spread from each other (750 - 1250 yds) than the default
setting (300yds) in mission editor

[Mush Martin]

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-10_065821_625.jpg
(this mapshot is from a different shoot but demonstrates the layout described)

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-10_070010_812.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192238_247.jpg
No limits to the possibilities................

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192426_122.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-25_192509_904.jpg
Hells Harpoon......you gotta know its gonna leave a mark.

[kylesplanet]

If you were a little more aggressive you could have got another.:p
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Kidding aside, that was a great shot MM!:yep:

[Mush Martin]

If you were a little more aggressive you could have got another.:p
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Kidding aside, that was a great shot MM!:yep:

let me tell you from experience
you can put five torps into two yamatos
thrice a day for a week and you will only
ever stop one your never gonna sink one
in five.

hows this though?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e368/MartinPicfix/SH4Img2008-06-09_075342_187.jpg

[XLjedi]

How can i know when it's 10 degrees and when 20 degrees, i mean what the speed should be?

That was the whole point of my original suggestions on how to adapt fast-90 to SH4 (or using the TDC without turning on the PK). It's to calculate the appropriate gyro angle, which would be very close to zero if on a 90° track and generally setting up your solution for a 15-20° bearing to target aiming point.

My original suggestions on how to do it are documented here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=627351&postcount=134

Elsewhere within that "Attack Tactics" thread you'll find a table with angles for different torpedo/target speeds (I think RR even posted it to this thread). This would allow you to never even mess with the TDC; just shoot fish straight out the bow on a 0° track. Essentially, I like to use the TDC to determine the aiming point rather than refer to a table, but either method works.

[XLjedi]

@ Mush...

http://www.xl-logic.com/emoticon/coolpics.gif

Hey!! No fair!

You must be using that late, late, late war wire guided torpedo mod. http://www.xl-logic.com/emoticon/huh.gif

[Mush Martin]

@ Mush...

http://www.xl-logic.com/emoticon/coolpics.gif

Hey!! No fair!

You must be using that late, late, late war wire guided torpedo mod. http://www.xl-logic.com/emoticon/huh.gif
nope mk 14's w only a range tweak no warhead changes or speed
changes (5000/9999yds) but Im certain all of these shots couldve
been done without the range change either.

none the less I think Im not really being helpful to the original
subject anymore but thanks for the encouragement.
M

[edit] I will add however that positioning and orientation play
a lot into the result for spread shooting. and if you look at
the third pic in the set above its and the previous tdc shot
show all the clues for effective full salvo.