help with fixing the shokaku sinking charactoristics

[Webster]

im frustrated by the way the game has the damage model set for the ships.

mainly i want to change the shokaku, it must have a rice paper hull because it sinks every time no matter what with just one torpedo. the hiryu and the taiho sometimes sink with one torpedo but mostly take anywhere from 2 to 4 torpedos to sink. the smaller escort carrier akitsu needs 3 to 5 torpedos to sink and the taiyo only 1 to 2 will sink it.

in trying to fix this i changed the stock setting as follows:

armor - stock 35 << i went all the way to 100 and it had no effect
hit points - stock 550 << i went all the way to 3500 and it had no effect

even with armor set at 100 and hit points at 35000 it sank instantly with only 1 mark 14 torpedo. there is something besides hit points and armor that controls ships sinkability and sinking charactoristics but i dont understand what that is.

i need help understanding whats going on here and how i can change the shokaku to react the way the other fleet carriers do.

im playing stock 1.5 with no mods.

[Webster]

follow up:

the numbers shown above were found by running a single mission with stationary targets at anchor shootinhg mark 14 torpedos from a fixed position with auto target locked so the same spot was hit each time. i repeated the mission ten times and recorded the results listed above.

[kv29]

what about flooding times?

[gimpy117]

you guys really wanna pass up 30,000 easy tons???!!

[Webster]

what about flooding times?

there is nothing in the ColisionableObject section and i cant find anything under SinkingEffects and asked in a few posts already about where they can be found but got no response.

where can flooding times be found for individual ships?

[Webster]

you guys really wanna pass up 30,000 easy tons???!!

while i am certainly no rivet counter i do want the sinking effects to be in line with what would be expected if you looked at a ships specs.

i mean things can happen if the curcomstances are perfect so it could be actually be possible to sink her with one torpedo but that would be the very rare exception and not the routine.

when you look at a ship on paper you can say, this ship would probably need "x" number of torpedos to be damaged enough to sink. going by that guideline i would like to have that be close to how it is represented in the game.

there are some other ships also that dont respond to changes in hit points and armor levels so whatever is controlling them is a different.

its as though there is a built in "cheat" so some ships will always sink too easy no matter what the hit points or armor levels are set to.

[Arclight]

Can't it be argued it's a design flaw? Shokaku-type was conceived between wars, and we know what that did for the Mk.14. ;)

IJN carriers were prone to vapor fires, Taiho blew itself appart some time after taking a single torpedo hit.

"One of the Taihō's strike pilots, Sakio Komatsu had just taken off when he saw the torpedo wakes and deliberately dived his plane on the path of a torpedo in a vain attempt to save his ship. One of the torpedoes hit Adm. Ozawa's flagship, the 31,000-ton carrier, the newest and largest floating air base in the Japanese fleet in a part where her armor is thickest. The explosion jammed the ship's forward aircraft elevator, and filled its pit with gasoline, water, and aviation fuel. However, no fire erupted, and the flight deck was unharmed. Ozawa was unconcerned by the hit ( :88) ) and launched two more waves of aircraft. Meanwhile, a novice took over the damage control responsibilities. He believed that the best way to handle gasoline fumes was to open up the ship's ventilation system and let them disperse throughout the ship ( :doh: ). This action turned the ship into a floating time bomb. At 1330, a tremendous explosion jolted Taihō and blew out the sides of the carrier."

I'm using NSM, so hitpoints don't play a (large) part in the damage model. Still, a hit to the engine room or below the bridge will doom a Shokaku class carrier. If the model accurately models the way the ship was compartimentalized, I don't see the problem. I've been digging around for info on the hull designs, but I'm not turning up all that much, especially nothing to reinforce the theory.

You could get some material to consider here; http://www.combinedfleet.com/shoksink.htm

[gimpy117]

you guys really wanna pass up 30,000 easy tons???!!
while i am certainly no rivet counter i do want the sinking effects to be in line with what would be expected if you looked at a ships specs.

i mean things can happen if the curcomstances are perfect so it could be actually be possible to sink her with one torpedo but that would be the very rare exception and not the routine.

when you look at a ship on paper you can say, this ship would probably need "x" number of torpedos to be damaged enough to sink. going by that guideline i would like to have that be close to how it is represented in the game.

there are some other ships also that dont respond to changes in hit points and armor levels so whatever is controlling them is a different.

its as though there is a built in "cheat" so some ships will always sink too easy no matter what the hit points or armor levels are set to.

oh I was kidding anyways....1 torp is a little weak

[Arclight]

Hit a Shokaku with 3 torps and didn't sink, all you have to do is hit it poorly. Don't see the problem. :-?

[Ducimus]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=868972&postcount=2
edit: No i never got around to fixiing it. Probably never will.

[Webster]

Hit a Shokaku with 3 torps and didn't sink, all you have to do is hit it poorly. Don't see the problem. :-?

what mods were you using was this in a campaign version or single mission?

i have yet to need more than one torpedo in any single mission stock 1.5 game using no mods

[Webster]

if anyone wants to see what i am talking about then try this single mission using stock version 1.5 and no mods.

http://files.filefront.com/WEBSTERs+Torpedo+Test+Missions/;11090242;/fileinfo.html

you can see for yourself what the average number of torps it takes to sink the ships but results vary so try it at least 5 times before coming to any conclusions

[Arclight]

Ok, I'm using NSM + PE, I think I mentioned NSM before;

I made a test mission, putting all 3 big carriers in a row: Hiryu in the back, Shokaku in the middle and Taiho up front. My boat is located at 90deg AOB to starboard of Shokaku at 2000m. I fire initial spread of 2 torps at default depth at high speed, contact pistol only; first at 1deg right spread from a starboard tube (1,3,5) and second at 1deg left spread from a port tube (2,4,6). Been firing like that for a couple of hours by now, I lost count.

Taiho consistently is wracked by secondary explosions from the second shot (1deg left spread), destroying the ship.

Shokaku consistently soaks up the damage and develops a moderate list to starboard. A third shot amidship finishes her of quick, listing badly while the bow sinks, the engine room is obviously her sweetspot. Single shots to the engine room before taking any damage cause a serious list, decks are partly submerged.

Hiryu seems to soak up the damage, only dropping the bow a bit. However, screams can be heard from the ship, as if it's sinking, but an hour later nothing seems to have changed. Third shot amidship drops the bow further to the waterline, give her a couple of minutes and she'll sink.

I also tried a different spread; first amidship, second 1deg right. Hiryu seems to shrug it off, without visable changes. Shokaku lists badly to starboard and the bow drops, decks partly submerged. Taiho develops a list to port (?!), bow drops slightly, screams as well.

My conclusion so far: Hiryu seems most resistant to damage, but the screams could very well indicate she would sink within hours. Taiho seems moderatly resistant, but also starts screaming. Shokaku has the most dramatic visable effects, implying indeed very low resistance to damage but is the only one that doesn't scream.

Whole thing has me puzzled. Gonna be comparing the files for all three to look for inconsistencies. Will toy with it some more and return the game to stock to see how that effects it. I'm willing to spend time on this and help if I can, I was a bit negative before because I didn't understand the motive. I know that if you hit a Shokaku at the port side in the engine room it will sink, but the whole thing is top heavy and the bridge is at port side as well, making it worse. To me, it all doesn't seem to illogical. :-?

[Webster]

Ok, I'm using NSM + PE, I think I mentioned NSM before;

:-?

yes, the key is im trying to get a reasonably expected torpedo kill rate from all ships in a stock unmodded game.

nsm makes big changes to all ships so its cant apply as a compared to stock version.

once i can get all the ships to be killed at a random but average number of torps, or at least as close as i can get them to be, it will make all added on mods even better as a result IMO.

[Arclight]

Cool, and sorry for before. When someone yells "fire" I run off for an extinguisher without knowing where to bring it; I tend to get ahead of myself.

I've been firing lots of fish at her, and basically anything hitting midship or further aft but still forward of the screws will sink her in 1 hit. Under the right conditions she'll even withstand 2 hits (above screws + the bow). I can post a list of my findings if you want.

I increased the Armorlevel and hitpoints like you did, but I set them to Yamato levels (96 armor, 1500 hp); hits that normally sink it in 1 shot tend not to anymore. Took me 3 hits last try: 1 hit on the first mast aft from center, and she lived! Second went in the bow, but didn't blow a hole, presumably because of higher armor level. Bow still sank a bit though. Third went far aft and finished her of. Think you can leave the armorlevels alone, just increase hitpoints so she can take more hits.

Also tried messing with the "SH3ZonesCtrl" stuff; you'll see "sphere's" and "boxes" listed there. I think they represent the compartments of the ship, and changing there individual armorlevel settings seemed to influence the ships sinking times.

Guess you need a 3d editor to see where those zones are actually located. There's also a "type" listing that lists a number. In zones.cfg there's an index where you can look up what type of area those numbers represent (I think). For instance, the first box, "box 0", is type 113 which would translate to "KeelBB" according to that index. "box 1" is type 188, "BBFuelBunkers" in the index, etc.

I'll pick this up tomorrow, 5 am by now...

[Webster]

Cool, and sorry for before. When someone yells "fire" I run off for an extinguisher without knowing where to bring it; I tend to get ahead of myself.

I've been firing lots of fish at her, and basically anything hitting midship or further aft but still forward of the screws will sink her in 1 hit. Under the right conditions she'll even withstand 2 hits (above screws + the bow). I can post a list of my findings if you want.

I increased the Armorlevel and hitpoints like you did, but I set them to Yamato levels (96 armor, 1500 hp); hits that normally sink it in 1 shot tend not to anymore. Took me 3 hits last try: 1 hit on the first mast aft from center, and she lived! Second went in the bow, but didn't blow a hole, presumably because of higher armor level. Bow still sank a bit though. Third went far aft and finished her of. Think you can leave the armorlevels alone, just increase hitpoints so she can take more hits.

Also tried messing with the "SH3ZonesCtrl" stuff; you'll see "sphere's" and "boxes" listed there. I think they represent the compartments of the ship, and changing there individual armorlevel settings seemed to influence the ships sinking times.

Guess you need a 3d editor to see where those zones are actually located. There's also a "type" listing that lists a number. In zones.cfg there's an index where you can look up what type of area those numbers represent (I think). For instance, the first box, "box 0", is type 113 which would translate to "KeelBB" according to that index. "box 1" is type 188, "BBFuelBunkers" in the index, etc.

I'll pick this up tomorrow, 5 am by now...

yes thanks for helping, i was sticking to the auto target rather than trying different hit locations because i figured it was the best way to get constantly repeatable results. 1 meter left or right could or could not open different compartments that change results. the strange thing is if you look at the other fleet carriers the stock damage levels are all set the same (1 has a 50 hit point difference) so why they are acting so different is very strange.

as for the "boxes" i was afraid to mess with those things because i know nothing about what they are and how or if i could tell what any changes might do.

[Arclight]

Well, I don't know what the "sphere" entries are for, but the "boxes" can be traced with the index (zones.cfg) to compartments and parts on the ship; screws, rudder, engineroom, fuelbunker, etc. In S3 editor they usually show an armorlevel of -1 ("-1 means it has armor of general category."). Further down in "zones.cfg" you'll find the actual properties of the zones / compartments, listing stuff such as HitPoints for that zone, yet another ArmorLevel listing, and FloodingTime. By comparing the NSM zones.cfg to the original, I noticed this is actually where you'll find the biggest changes. Still, even with NSM, it isn't that difficult to send a Shokaku type to the bottom with a single shot.

There's also a remarkable difference between the 3 CV types;

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Hiryuscreen.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Taihoscreen.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Skokakuscreen.jpg

I think you'll notice Taiho has the most entries, followed by Hiryu and then Shokaku with only 2 "SH3ZonesCtrl" entries. :hmm:

The last "SH3ZonesCtrl" for all 3 is rather similar, with 40+ "box" sub-entries, made up out of fuelbunkers, ammobunkers, enginerooms, keels, etc.

Her's the thing;

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Hiryubox.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Taihobox.jpg

Hiryu, like in that example, has a "box" sub-entrie for most of the "SH3ZonesCtrl" entries. These boxes, according to the index, are masts, srews, rudder, etc. Not actually parts of the hull, but parts of the ship attached to the hull. Taiho, on the other hand is missing these single "box" entries for masts and such. Shokaku... well, she has only 2 "SH3ZonesCtrl" entries, the first one not containing any "boxes", and the second is the 40+ "boxes" one with the hullparts (enginerooms and such).

To me it seems Hiryu is the only ship with "complete" entries, followed by Taiho and then Shokaku. Quess what the order of vulnerability is in my tests? Hiryu shrugs of the first hit like nothing happened, Taiho shows it noticed getting hit and Shokaku... goes down like a brick.

Maybe Ubi never got around to actually finishing the Shokaku model (among others, apparently), which would explain this strange behaviour. :hmm:

Gonna see if I can blow of some screws; if it works for Hiryu (which has 4 screw "box" listings) but not the others (which don't have any such listings), I think we can say for certain that the actual 3d model could do with some more zones.

Is your head hurting? Mine is.

Ow, and as long long as you make backups of anything you mess with and keep them safe, you can mess all you want. And a reinstall of stock SH4 shouldn't be much trouble if something goes wrong anyway. ;)

[Arclight]

Well there's your problem.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Guess what?

Taiho;
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Taihobefore.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Taihoafter.jpg
Shokaku;
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Shokakubefore.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Shokakuafter.jpg
Hiryu;
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Hiryubefore.jpg
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/Hiryuafter.jpg
I think I'm gonna send my copy to Ubi with a note attached asking them to please finish it. :rotfl:

I have a "friend" that has a copy of a very expensive piece of 3d graphics software, maybe I can use it to finish the models. (and send the bill to Ubi! :rotfl: )

I'll see what can be accomplished with the entries that are actually there, maybe we can still improve the way Shokaku behaves, but with such a crippled model it's never going to be perfect. I suggest you do the same, I'll report any findings back here. If we put both our findings together we might come up with a solution, and maybe some other guys can pitch in who have some more experience with this stuff.

We can definitly conclude the game was never finished, but as far as I know that's pretty well known already. :lol:

[Webster]

Well there's your problem.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


well my eyes glazed over as soon as we started talking about spheres and boxes and zones lol.

are you saying the shokaku has missing zones and thats why it "floats like a brick"?

[Arclight]

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me, it seems to be nowhere near complete, would certainly explain a lot. The best example is in my previous post; the before and after shots.

Only carrier that seems to have a complete list is the Hiryu, which is also the only one where you can blast off the screws. The other 2 don't react to damage the way you'lld expect them to, with Shokaku as the clearest example overall.

I've got nothing on my schedule till next tuesday, gonna look into it some more and see if we can work something out. Just starting to learn myself, so bear with me. ;)

[Webster]

Yeah, that's what it looks like to me, it seems to be nowhere near complete, would certainly explain a lot. The best example is in my previous post; the before and after shots.

Only carrier that seems to have a complete list is the Hiryu, which is also the only one where you can blast off the screws. The other 2 don't react to damage the way you'lld expect them to, with Shokaku as the clearest example overall.

I've got nothing on my schedule till next tuesday, gonna look into it some more and see if we can work something out. Just starting to learn myself, so bear with me. ;)

no rush, i am just very interested in figuring this thing out because i think it could help fix a game flaw that connects to other things as well.

so do you think its the main zones file is where the key to fixing it will be? and if so will fixing it fix more than just the shokaku alone?

the reason i ask is the heavy cruiser maya will go decks awash like a submarine every time after only one torpedo then need 3 more additional torps to sink which is more than i would expect it to take but still not out of line, but the decks being awash after only one is not indicative of a ship that could take 2 more torpedos without sinking and need a forth to finish it off so i would imagine it has missing compartments too.

[Arclight]

Well, not necessarily missing compartments as missing funtioning parts, like destructible screws and masts getting blown of. I'm shifting my attention to the "spheres" at the moment, haven't got a clue what those do yet. The compartments ("boxes") are all there, at least for engine rooms and bunkers and such. "boxes" seem to be for special effects, with their own separate attributes. From zones.cfg;


Category=Engines Room
Multiplier=5.0 (damage multiplier? Could explain why it sinks at engine room hit)
Flotability=0.5
HitPoints=[B]100
Destructible=No
Armor Level=-1
Critic Flotation=0.3
Critical=Yes (chance of destroying ship in 1 go)
Critical Chance=0.05 (that chance in %)
FloodingTime=120
CargoType=None
Crash Depth=30 (depth at wich compartment is destroyed)

Problem is, if you change this stuff, you change all warships. :damn:

You don't always hit one of the "boxes", so I guess that's where the "spheres" come in. Shokaku has 22 of these "spheres", compared to ~130 for Hiryu, which again seems to indicate something is missing.

I'm struggling, but I think I'm making progress. :-?

And no, fixing Shokaku does just that. New zones would have to be introduced for every ship that seems to be missing them. :cry:

[Madox58]

The Spheres are what 'take' the hits.
If you have a box with no spheres?
You'll get no hit.
That's why DC's sometimes pass through a Sub's hull!!
It misses the sphere's!!
Each box should be filled with spheres of different sizes and placements
so to fill the box as best as possible.
that way you get the 'hit'.

[Anvart]

:D
Spheres for collisions ...
For correct collisions, spheres should repeat precisely of ship figure and superstructure and masts too ...

[Madox58]

Exactumundo!!
:up:

[Anvart]

Exactumundo!!
:up:
do not understand ... :o

[Madox58]

òî÷íî

[Arclight]

I finally figured that "spheres for collision" part out as well. Was just about to write here when I read it. :lol:
Thanks for the info, I'm hitting a brick wall at the moment. Weird thing is that I set all spheres to 0 radius but collision detection still works fine?!

So boxes determine special properties for specific parts of the ship and spheres are for collision?



Web; like I said, hitting a brick wall. Those zones don't seem to effect "flotability properties", so to say. Tried giving Shokaku "unique" parts, like an engine room only used by her that didn't multiplie damage, still sank like a brick. Came to the conclusion she's not sinking because of no HP left, but due to instability, which means it will go down no matter how many HP you give it.

Opened up ship's 3d model (basically skin, or hull), as well as the 3d damage model (what you see inside when you blow a hole). Can't make sense of it, I'm not a 3d modeler. Short of recreating NSM (change everything to rebalance) I wouldn't know what to do. I have no idea what determines the ships CG and the way she floats. :cry:

On the positive side; I think that, with some more practice, it should be possible to get screws and masts destructible like they should be. Even that would be an improvement IMO.

I really hope more poeple will give some input, I'm not about to give up but I don't have a clue what to try anymore.

[Webster]

I finally figured that "spheres for collision" part out as well. Was just about to write here when I read it. :lol:
Thanks for the info, I'm hitting a brick wall at the moment. Weird thing is that I set all spheres to 0 radius but collision detection still works fine?!

So boxes determine special properties for specific parts of the ship and spheres are for collision?



Web; like I said, hitting a brick wall. Those zones don't seem to effect "flotability properties", so to say. Tried giving Shokaku "unique" parts, like an engine room only used by her that didn't multiplie damage, still sank like a brick. Came to the conclusion she's not sinking because of no HP left, but due to instability, which means it will go down no matter how many HP you give it.

Opened up ship's 3d model (basically skin, or hull), as well as the 3d damage model (what you see inside when you blow a hole). Can't make sense of it, I'm not a 3d modeler. Short of recreating NSM (change everything to rebalance) I wouldn't know what to do. I have no idea what determines the ships CG and the way she floats. :cry:

On the positive side; I think that, with some more practice, it should be possible to get screws and masts destructible like they should be. Even that would be an improvement IMO.

I really hope more poeple will give some input, I'm not about to give up but I don't have a clue what to try anymore.

at least you understand it better than i do.

here's a dumb question, if like you said the zones are shared by all ships and just coded for each ship, could you just copy all the stuff from a working version ship and recode it?

what i was thinking is could another ship be used as a guide or blueprint to finish the unfinished shokaku file?

[Webster]

or what about this as a fix?

i forget which one but you said only one of the carriers looked to have a complete model so could that ship be copied and just replace the skin with the shokaku textures files? could that in effect replace the shokaku and work? or is there a lot more to cloning a ship than just swapping texture files?

[Madox58]

There are alot of messed up zones.
Several Boxes are outside the ships,
the spheres that should be on the Bridge of the Aircraft carriers,
are infact on the opposite side of the deck,
there are missing damage areas like the props,
and that's just two that I looked at.

[Arclight]

There are alot of messed up zones.
Several Boxes are outside the ships,
the spheres that should be on the Bridge of the Aircraft carriers,
are infact on the opposite side of the deck,...

So it wasn't just me! :lol:

Thought something went wrong with the coordinates system while importing or something. :doh:

Web; all you're gonna be able to fix with new zones is getting props and masts to act like they should. Actually, the spheres and boxes are all there, be it misplaced like with the bridge sometimes. :lol:

Maybe we can do some editing in S3 editor, ala NSM to tweak sinking, but she's still almost gonna sink with 1 hit (heavy list, decks awash). Somethings wrong, but I can't put my finger on it. :hmm:

I'll dive back in today. Took a break over the weekend (was seeing hex code when I closed my eyes) to get some playtime in, but winded up modding my scopes. It's so hot in here my PC keeps giving beeps for CPU overheat anyway. :damn:

[Anvart]

There are alot of messed up zones.
Several Boxes ...
that's just two that I looked at.
Wow ... :up:
I remember (100 years ago) GWX-team had Ref 's zone editor ... :lol:

[Arclight]

Well, we can change the properties of those .zon files in S3 editor, but you'll need a 3d editor to see what you did. It's also impossible to make new entries in S3. Need a hex editor for that, but havn't figured out how just yet. :roll:

A lot changed between 3 and 4, except the bugs. :lol:

[skwasjer]

It's also impossible to make new entries in S3. Need a hex editor for that, but havn't figured out how just yet. :roll:

Right click > Add array item

:up:

[Arclight]

Just proves once more my inexperience and what an awesome program it is. Good job. ;)

But what I really need to know is how to add a new "top-level" (don't know how to call it) entry;
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj2/EZatHome/untitled.jpg
Is this also possible in S3 or should I use hex editor like XVI32? Or can I just add new controller to existing entry and assign arrays to that?

Ubi made new "top-level" entries for each part, like 1 screw or 1 mast at a time. Thought I needed to stick to that layout, would be lot easier if I don't.

[Madox58]

There are alot of messed up zones.
Several Boxes ...
that's just two that I looked at.
Wow ... :up:
I remember (100 years ago) GWX-team had Ref 's zone editor ... :lol:


:lol:
Very good memory My Friend!

[Ducimus]

Hell, i got a screenshot of it. I'd post it (again), but id just kick up a hornet's nest, and im too burnt out on that kind of thing. I can only hope S3D gets that ability someday, cause hell will freeze over before any other existing zones editor ever see's the light of day.

[Madox58]

Actually,
You would not kick up a hornets nest.
The Zone editor for SH3 takes a massive amount of work to use for SH4.
It was never perfect for SH3!
Ref made it.
Ref released it to people he knew could work with it
in an inperfect state.
It is in fact not even a beta tool!!
Does it work for me?
YES!!
But I can edit files in ways that S3D still dreams about!
Don't Cry Wolf
When there is no Wolf!!

[Ducimus]

Truthfully, without naming names, i think theres acutaly two different zones editor out there, or at least, two different front end applications capable of editing boxes and sphere's that take some of the guesswork out of editing their size with a GUI representation of the same. Neither of which will ever surface for Joe modder. So unless S3D makes it possible, nobody but some select few will ever see them.

>>When there is no Wolf!!

No wolf? Last i checked there was a whole pack of em! :rotfl:

At any rate....
http://www.softpedia.com/screenshots/Care-Meter_1.png

I've already done my fair share for this game, i really don't care if said applications (or their functionality) ever see the light of day one way or another, infact i don't care about much of anything right now, just saying.

[Madox58]

Very fair Sir.
:lol:
There are infact several tools if you can find them.
I do run several tool of my own that even the GWX team does not have.
We do it that way because we do not need to support user
issues.

We don't release our tools because they are extremly hard
to use.

You can not read hex?
You can not use the tools!

S3D will NOT work!!!

Whine all you want.
It will not change!!

And in fact?

Start looking in Anvarts ru forums.
There is a link to an early version.
You just need to figure out how to adapt files.
Now?
Can we stop the dis posts?

[Ducimus]

Reading or writing hexidecimal isnt hard. A monkey with a conversion chart could do it. What's hard is sifting through a file with a low level program trying finding the right addresses to edit. Especially when some things are encrypted or organized in some not so obvious manner, but you already knew that.

[Madox58]

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Moved/GWJammu2008-06-2321-48-15-79.jpg

[Anvart]

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23
...
Start looking in Anvarts ru forums.
There is a link to an early version.
...
Hi, Privateer.
I badly understand, about what it is possible so many to speak ...
Already there were many fine works by NYGM, GWX, Werner Sobe and others ...
Why nobody wishes to study experience of old good works ...? :o

[Webster]

has anyone found a fix for the the shokaku and the maya damage models yet?

[tater]

Looks like the zon editor in S3D (pic above). :)

Observer is working on all the warships. They will be entirely redone, and calibrated to the RL attack data (Alden, plus TROM data where it supercedes Alden).

[Webster]

Looks like the zon editor in S3D (pic above). :)

Observer is working on all the warships. They will be entirely redone, and calibrated to the RL attack data (Alden, plus TROM data where it supercedes Alden).

the key for me is to have the missing damage zones fixed, but not calibrated to real life attack data. ships in RFB are strengthened too much in my opinion, and many others feel the same so many of us dont use RFB for that very reason. all we are looking for is a working version of the damage zones not a modded one.

i truely wish Observer or the RFB team would release a unmodded version of the fixed damage zones before they change other peramiters. we can only hope they find it in their hearts to also share this with us as a simple stock 1.5 damage zones fix.

[tater]

A damage zon system not calibrated to the RL sinkings and damages is plain BS, and not worth the effort, IMO.

The problem with the stock CVs is that every one sinks with 1 fish every time. If you don't want them to sink that way, don't mod them, because they can only become harder to sink (unless you want them to sink just by looking at them ;) ).

If you want the damage zones "stock," why not just leave them as 1-hit wonders?

[tater]

(no edit available---again)

quick look shows the usual suspects for damage zones. I don't think anything is missing, they just don't work well (unless 1-hit sinking means working well).

[Webster]

A damage zon system not calibrated to the RL sinkings and damages is plain BS, and not worth the effort, IMO.

The problem with the stock CVs is that every one sinks with 1 fish every time. If you don't want them to sink that way, don't mod them, because they can only become harder to sink (unless you want them to sink just by looking at them ;) ).

If you want the damage zones "stock," why not just leave them as 1-hit wonders?

my test results on stock carriers shows this not to be true, only the shokaku sinks with 1 torp. the others average 2-4 torps.

as for RL sinkings, im not saying make them unrealisticly easy but rather in line with stock settings of other ships in the same class. i believe RL records reflect skippers putting more torps in ships than needed so they get a sure and quick sinking.

yes i know these are recorded documented official sinking records and its a given some ships lingered and needed extra torps because of badly located hits in non critical areas but it is my opinion the average results are inflated for what was really needed for ships to sink. quite simply a merchant doesnt need the same number of torps to sink as a CA or a BB.

[tater]

A merchant doesn't take that many. I've been sort of watching these last 3-ish patrols, and while I always fire spreads of at least 2 fish, I have sunk many merchants with 1, and none have survived a spread of 3.

So many merchants downed in RFB with 1, and virtually all with 2+. I don't usually fire only 2, so I don;t have a feeling for 2 vs 3 hits, though with duds, etc, I'd bet the large majority sink with 2.

I can't even tell you what they were, I usually shoot at bigger targets first, and I've been just doing a version of RR's O'Kane method with great effectiveness (it's 43/44 so I have radar for speed, etc).

I had ONE hog islander linger with 3, decks awash, actually. I DGed her out of impatience.

tater

[Webster]

A merchant doesn't take that many. I've been sort of watching these last 3-ish patrols, and while I always fire spreads of at least 2 fish, I have sunk many merchants with 1, and none have survived a spread of 3.

So many merchants downed in RFB with 1, and virtually all with 2+. I don't usually fire only 2, so I don;t have a feeling for 2 vs 3 hits, though with duds, etc, I'd bet the large majority sink with 2.

I can't even tell you what they were, I usually shoot at bigger targets first, and I've been just doing a version of RR's O'Kane method with great effectiveness (it's 43/44 so I have radar for speed, etc).

I had ONE hog islander linger with 3, decks awash, actually. I DGed her out of impatience.

tater

yep, those hog islanders are crazy for the damage they take. you need 3 well placed shots minimum and often a 4th or she wont go down. they should use them for small battleships as tough as they are lol.

[tater]

I sank 3 others with 2 fish though. If I placed them well it was pure luck, I'm happy to hit the target and get some sort of spread, frankly.

[Webster]

has anyone found a fix for the the shokaku and the maya damage models yet?

hopefully zeewolf might want to take a look at these after he finishes with the BB kongo