Can a judge save the universe?

[GlobalExplorer]

Spotted at: http://www.nixlab.net/blog/?p=71

"CERN is an acronym for The European Organization for Nuclear Research. They currently have the prestige of owning the worlds largest particle physics laboratory which is located on the Swiss/French border. This is a title previously held by the Americans at Fermilab located near Chicago.

Apparently 2 scientists are suing the organization for downplaying the possibility that the CERN particle collider could possibly create a black hole which would devour the earth, and then the solar system; and that their is also a slight possibility that the lab could also create something called "strange" matter which could in turn overtake the real matter of our corner in the universe and of course render us all extinct. Be sure and add Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho to your prayers this evening for doing their part in attempting to save humanity."

Read the full article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/29/science/29collider.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=judge+CERN&st=nyt&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

[DeepIron]

Interesting article.

Well, if it does go wrong, a black hole should make the whole process quick and painless if current theories prevail...

I'd rather go that way than wonder when a bomb is going to go off in my neighborhood, or what kind of "invincible germ" the biologists are going to cook up and infect the planet with... :up:

[Letum]

That Atlas unit is something else!

[Tchocky]

This all seems very silly.
One would imagine that the guys who know how to build these things will also take such eschatological concerns into acount. Bah.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/opinion/06sun4.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&oref=&oref=slogin&oref=slogin :P

Oh, and every time I think about what they're doing at CERN, my mental jaw drops. A passing acquaintance (an astrophysicist) is working there, I must kind out what he's up to.

[SUBMAN1]

I don't think there is any real danger. The singularity will be magnetically suspended rendering it harmless, as well as simply shutting off the power eliminates it. However, if you control gravity, you also control time... What is the scarier proposition knowing this?

-S

[kurtz]

Spotted at: http://www.nixlab.net/blog/?p=71

"

Apparently 2 scientists are suing the organization for downplaying the possibility that the CERN particle collider could possibly ..... Be sure and add Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho to your prayers this evening for doing their part in attempting to save humanity."



I read this sometime agoand IIRC when they say scientists they are in fact the god botherers version of scientists, I think it's the head gardener and his mate...remeber these lackluster twits in your prayers says enough I think.

[SUBMAN1]

I read this sometime agoand IIRC when they say scientists they are in fact the god botherers version of scientists, I think it's the head gardener and his mate...remeber these lackluster twits in your prayers says enough I think.Has nothign to do with that. There is a very real danger of a non properly conatined singularity gaining mass. That is the danger. if it did, then we could all end up dead, so it is not something to shove under the carpet by any means.

-S

[Skybird]

Well, why not this way. Nothing lasts forever, and human civilisation and developement of mind seems to have been gone beyond climax point anyway. Since our perception of what we call cosmos is just inside our mind anyway, the idea of this mind being swallowed up by some creation of this mind itself, has a somewhat ironic charm. at least it is more original, and has more drama than just a boring nuclear war, or a global pandemic infection - all this stuff Hollywood already has told us. But human mind being swallowed by its own creation - hehe, has anyone evr considered that the opposite might be the case and we might end up with Romulan bird of prey (that use a singularity core as energy source for their warp-rives)? :cool:

BTW, this is a heck of a good and intense movie:
http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Earth-Bruno-Lawrence/dp/B000EZ908Y/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1211235496&sr=8-1

Maybe the best in its genre.

[V.C. Sniper]

I'm excited beyond words on the commisioning of the LHC! 3-4 months before the first collision event takes place. :up:

[mrbeast]

IIRC aren't the odds of a black hole or singularity occuring astronomically high?

[SUBMAN1]

IIRC aren't the odds of a black hole or singularity occuring astronomically high?Pretty much a guarantee. So yes is the answer to your question.

-S

[darius359au]

Sooooo...what you basically have here are a couple of guys in tinfoil hats:nope:
What I like was the the bio bits on the second page at the end of the piece on Sancho "he probably lives in Barcelona said Mr Wagner" ,He does a joint suit with the guy and he doesn't even know where he lives:o

[MothBalls]

Take a step back and think about it like this.

They really don't know exactly what will happen when they do the first collision(s). If they did know, they wouldn't need to do them. Right?

There's a ton of articles, videos, and whatnot on this topic out there. I've been reading and watching for a couple years. For me it's a coin toss. There's a 50% chance it will destroy the universe, and a 50% chance it won't. There doesn't seem to be anything in between.

We'll know in a few months, or not. If it does all go to hell, I wonder how much time we'll have to point fingers and say "you bastards were wrong".

[Platapus]

Has anyone ever seen one of these Black Holes? Have we detected one and measured one or are they still in the realm of theoretical mathematics?

Have we seen a Black Hole being "made"? Do we know what makes Black Holes?

How do these scientists know how Black Holes are formed and whether we puny pathetic humans can generate anywhere near the energy to grow one?

I hate when scientists use the word "possible" Pretty much anything and everything is possible. It is really a useless scientific term and only serves to stir up emotional responses.

It is possible for Sandra Bullock to come over to my house and give me a nice snarlin.

Possible yes. Probable? Alas no :cry:

Pain in the Arse Reporter: Dr. Distinguished Scientist, please tell me, is it possible for this nuclear reactor to spring up, propel itself through the air and insert its reactor core up my butt?

Dr. D.S.: Uh well, I never thought about that. but yes I guess that would be possible.

PitA Reporter: There you go, our leading scientist claims that this nuclear reactor is a potential threat to our anuses.

Dr. D.S. : Uh that's not what I meant.

PitAR: Sorry, Dr, we are out of time. Thanks for your expert advice.
:damn:

[CCIP]

"Hey Gordon, you left this at Black Mesa"

No worries, the crowbar dude will save us :p

[Tchocky]

"Hey Gordon, you left this at Black Mesa"

No worries, the crowbar dude will save us :p

Ah, but this is CERN, you see.

In France.
And Switzerland.

:D

:)

:-?

:cry:

We're all doomed.

[Blacklight]

"Hey Gordon, you left this at Black Mesa"

No worries, the crowbar dude will save us :p


:rotfl:
Seriously though... I've done a LOT of reading about the CERN particle collider in the past several years and have been looking forward to it's comptetion. If any singulaity is created, it would be so short lived that it would dissapate in milliseconds. We'd be able to detect it when it pops into existance, but it will almost instantaniously pop out of existance again. This supercollider is one heck of a marvel... and it's still nowhere near powerful enough to properly test String Theory (You'd need a particle collider with a tunnel the size of our solar system to properly test it and you can imagine the singularies THAT could potentially make ) !

Saying that this thing could wipe out the Earth and the solar system is just bad science.

[DeepIron]

If any singulaity is created, it would be so short lived that it would dissapate in milliseconds.Considering that current theory holds the Big Bang occured in less time than that... I'm not sure I find this encouraging... :shifty:

[CCIP]

To be serious, I just haven't seen any convincingly scientific indications this could go THAT bad. I mean sure, anything can happen. But given what I think is a small risk of something going badly wrong, weighed against what could produce a massive breakthrough for human knowledge... I think it's more than worth it. This may be the sort of science that "threatens" earth and the solar system, but it's also the sort of science that gives us a chance to one day save our species by taking us beyond these. Honestly, there's a lot of other threats to survival of human civilization as it stands.

[DeepIron]

To be serious, I just haven't seen any convincingly scientific indications this could go THAT bad. I mean sure, anything can happen. But given what I think is a small risk of something going badly wrong, weighed against what could produce a massive breakthrough for human knowledge... I think it's more than worth it. This may be the sort of science that "threatens" earth and the solar system, but it's also the sort of science that gives us a chance to one day save our species by taking us beyond these. Honestly, there's a lot of other threats to survival of human civilization as it stands.Well in principal I would agree...

However, the last major breakthrough in this kind of physics got dropped twice on Japan and we've lived in fear of it ever since...

[Blacklight]

Considering that current theory holds the Big Bang occured in less time than that... I'm not sure I find this encouraging... :shifty:

The Big Bang had something that this collider doesn't have, near infinite ammount of energy. This collider can produce conditions very similar to The Big Bang, but the vast amount of energy of the Big Bang is still a hell of a lot more than this thing can do. Can it bend space and time on a particle sized level in detectable ammounts ? Yes. Can it create a black hole or special matter ? Yes. Will these things be long lived enough to affect anything ? No. They're simply too small scale and created with too little energy. These things will dissapear as soon as they come into existance.

Consider this. There are black holes and worm holes being created all around you by the billions right now as you read this due to the Uncertainty Principle and Quantum Mechanics. Why don't you see them or feel their effects ? They're tiny... atomc sized..and they pop into existance and collapse almost instantaniously. With the CERN collider, we'll actually be able to see this process (hopefully) in a controlled environment.

[baggygreen]

I dunno... i'd like to think there was minimal risk of them wiping us all out... but noone can say that.

noone can say what will happen, and i think thats risky business... sure you can say 'we're looking to do this or that', but in this case they're trying to recreate the big bang.... am i the only one who thinks its insanity to try to recreate something that formed everything????:doh:

[Blacklight]

I dunno... i'd like to think there was minimal risk of them wiping us all out... but noone can say that.

noone can say what will happen, and i think thats risky business... sure you can say 'we're looking to do this or that', but in this case they're trying to recreate the big bang.... am i the only one who thinks its insanity to try to recreate something that formed everything????:doh:

They aren't trying to create the Big Bang. They're not going to have anywhere near the power to do that. What this entails is bringing a single particle up to near the speed of light and then hitting it with another particle going near the speed of light and then reccording the results. This is done with every particle accelerator. The collisions that will occur in CERN will approach the energies of NEARER to the conditions of the big bang than we've ever been able to test, not the actual Big Bang. It will simulate conditions shortly after the Big Bang.. but on a particle scale. It can and probably will cause warping of space time but at such a small scale and for such a short time, it will be measurable, but it won't affect anything. There have been experiments that have warped space/time before with no issue.

[V.C. Sniper]

"Hey Gordon, you left this at Black Mesa"

No worries, the crowbar dude will save us :pAll hail... The Free Man!!!

[Blacklight]

From Wikipedia:
Concerns have been raised that performing collisions at previously unexplored energies might unleash new and disastrous phenomena. These include the production of micro black holes, and strangelets, potentially resulting in a doomsday scenario. Such issues were raised in connection with the RHIC accelerator, both in the media[16][17] and in the scientific community;[18] however, after detailed studies, scientists reached such conclusions as "beyond reasonable doubt, heavy-ion experiments at RHIC will not endanger our planet"[19] and that there is "powerful empirical evidence against the possibility of dangerous strangelet production."[20]
One argument against such fears is that collisions at these energies (and higher) have been happening in nature for billions of years apparently without hazardous effects, as ultra-high-energy cosmic rays impact Earth's atmosphere and other bodies in the universe.[21] A concern against this cosmic-ray argument is that, if dangerous strangelets or micro black holes were created at LHC, a proportion would have less than the Earth's escape velocity (of 11.2 km/s), and therefore would be captured by the Earth's gravitational field, whereas those created by high-energy cosmic rays would leave the planet at high speed, due to the laws of conservation of momentum at relativistic speeds[citation needed].
CERN's review concludes, after detailed analysis, that "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from strangelets or black holes.[22][23] However, the concern about the verity of Hawking radiation was not addressed, and another study was commissioned by CERN in 2007 for publication on CERN's web-site by the end of 2007.[citation needed]
The risk of a doomsday scenario was indicated by Sir Martin Rees, with respect to the RHIC, as being at least a 1 in 50,000,000 chance,[24] and by Professor Frank Close, with regards to (dangerous) strangelets, that "the chance of this happening is like you winning the major prize on the lottery 3 weeks in succession; the problem is that people believe it is possible to win the lottery 3 weeks in succession."[25] Accurate assessments of these risks are impossible due to the present incomplete, or even hypothetically flawed, standard model of particle physics (see also a list of unsolved problems in physics).

Micro black holes
Main article: Micro black hole
Although the Standard Model of particle physics predicts that LHC energies are far too low to create black holes, some extensions of the Standard Model posit the existence of extra spatial dimensions, in which it would be possible to create micro black holes at the LHC[26][27][28] at a rate on the order of one per second. According to the standard calculations these are harmless because they would quickly decay by Hawking radiation. The concern is that among other disputed factors, Hawking radiation (whose existence is still debated[29]) is not yet an experimentally-tested or naturally observed phenomenon. The opponents to the LHC consider that micro black holes produced in a terrestrial laboratory might not decay as rapidly as calculated, or might even not be prone to decay. According to CERN, physicists in general do not question the assumption that black holes are generally unstable and those few who have pointed out issues with Hawking's radiation were only attempting to achieve a more rigorous proof of it.[30] CERN further argues that even if micro black holes were created and were stable, they would pose no threat to the Earth during its remaining 5 billion years of existence.[30][31] However, Dr. Adam D. Helfer's thesis concludes "no compelling theoretical case for or against radiation by black holes",[32][33] and Dr. Otto E. Rossler's thesis calculates that Earth accretion time could be as short as 50 months.[34]

Strangelets
Main article: Strangelet
Strangelets are a hypothetical form of strange matter that contains roughly equal numbers of up, down, and strange quarks and are more stable than ordinary nuclei. If strangelets can actually exist, and if they were produced at LHC, they could conceivably initiate a runaway fusion process (reminiscent of the fictional ice-nine) in which all the nuclei in the planet were converted to strange matter, similar to a strange star.

Legal challenge
On 21 March 2008 a complaint requesting an injunction against the LHC's startup was filed before the US District Court of Hawaii[35][36] by a group of seven concerned individuals. This group includes Walter L. Wagner who notably was unable to obtain an injunction against the much lower energy RHIC for similar concerns. See: RHIC - Fears among the public
The restraining order[37] is a demand for an injunction of 4 months time after issuance of the LHC Safety Assessment Group's (LSAG) Safety Review originally promised by January 1, 2008, to review the LHC's most recent safety documentation, after it has been issued, and a permanent injunction until the LHC can be demonstrated to be reasonably safe within industry standards.

[Skybird]

The Big Bang had something that this collider doesn't have, near infinite ammount of energy.


"Near infinite?" What should that be? It either is infinite, or it is not. If it is not, it always is not even "near infinite"! ;) When you see the universe as a borderless and thus not-expanding thing, there probably was infinite energy created by the Big Bang (not before). If you descrobe the universe as expanding, it necessarily has borders that expand - and thus the 'Big Bang cannot have been creating infinite energy. Not even a bit of it. No, not even that.

Funny little theory, this Big Bang. Reminds me of the old warning not to fall off the edge of the world. Imagine a time travel to before the Big Bang happened! Ooops!

Is there any symbolism in that the Big Bang theory was designed in an era when mankind also started to build atomic bombs and illustrated that at least things could be brought to an end with a Big Bang? Like there also may be symbolism to be found in that most Western people get already born in hospitals? :D

[Raptor1]

I don't think it's that easy to destroy the universe (or some smaller portion of it) with such a small contraption as the LHC

I wonder, what WOULD happen if a strangelet is formed?

[bradclark1]

I like dropping Mentos in diet coke and watch the reaction myself. A lot of black holes in that. Plus it's more on my level of science.

[DeepIron]

I like dropping Mentos in diet coke and watch the reaction myself.Wow! Cold fusion, er, I mean fizzin'...

[MothBalls]

I wonder, what WOULD happen if a strangelet is formed?

It would get elected as Prime Minister or President.

[goldorak]

Frankly as a European I say who the hell cares what the Americans think about CERN ?
They don't participate, have no legal jurisdiction so they can sue to their hearts content for all I care. The only practical result is thet they will be ridiculed even more for their "war on science". Man what a country that negates evolution and now wants to sue CERN for "the impossibily remote possibity of destroying earth". :rotfl:

[kurtz]

The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet. Besides as we're all figments of Skybird's imagination we won't have anything to worry about as long as he gets sucked into the black hole he's imagined first.

[kiwi_2005]

Far-out. Its like something out of a SF movie. What next, a time machine:hmm:

[Zayphod]

To be serious, I just haven't seen any convincingly scientific indications this could go THAT bad. I mean sure, anything can happen. But given what I think is a small risk of something going badly wrong, weighed against what could produce a massive breakthrough for human knowledge... I think it's more than worth it. This may be the sort of science that "threatens" earth and the solar system, but it's also the sort of science that gives us a chance to one day save our species by taking us beyond these. Honestly, there's a lot of other threats to survival of human civilization as it stands.Well in principal I would agree...

However, the last major breakthrough in this kind of physics got dropped twice on Japan and we've lived in fear of it ever since...

If I remember my history correctly, when they were about to test the Atomic bomb for the very first time, several scientists were taking bets on whether or not the blast would begin to fuse the Nitrogen and Oxygen in the atmosphere (think wildfire in the air) that would destroy all the breathable air on the planet.

As I recall, no one bothered any judge to stop the experiement.
I believe the Earth survived the experiment (and subsequent blasts as well).

[Zayphod]

From Wikipedia:
--- snip ---
The restraining order[37] is a demand for an injunction of 4 months time after issuance of the LHC Safety Assessment Group's (LSAG) Safety Review originally promised by January 1, 2008, to review the LHC's most recent safety documentation, after it has been issued, and a permanent injunction until the LHC can be demonstrated to be reasonably safe within industry standards.

So, uh, how do they determine if it's "safe" without running it at full power? This is all done on theory until they actually turn the thing on to "full", right?


Legal challenge
On 21 March 2008 a complaint requesting an injunction against the LHC's startup was filed before the US District Court of Hawaii[35][36] by a group of seven concerned individuals.

Correct me if I'm wrong, confused, or just plain stupid, but where is it written (in stone) that any judge in a US court in Hawaii has anything to say about, or has any control over, anything going on in Switzerland? I'm assuming this Federal judge will toss this out for lack of jurisdiction.

[Raptor1]

I wonder, what WOULD happen if a strangelet is formed?
It would get elected as Prime Minister or President.
Well, Mr. Strengelet got my vote, Micro Black Hole is just too corrupt, sucking in all the power...

Zayphod, The collider is theoretically safe, but so are the claims that it could destroy the world, so it's even...

[Skybird]

The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet. Besides as we're all figments of Skybird's imagination we won't have anything to worry about as long as he gets sucked into the black hole he's imagined first.
Lovely. You are really cute.

[kurtz]

The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet. Besides as we're all figments of Skybird's imagination we won't have anything to worry about as long as he gets sucked into the black hole he's imagined first. Lovely. You are really cute.

Aw Shucks!

[GlobalExplorer]

The thing is collisions like these are occuring all the time at the edge of the earth's atmosphere and we haven't been destroyed yet.

I also think that we can rely on statistics here. If such collisions occur naturally the fact that we are still there and not swallowd by a black hole is a good indication that nothing will go wrong.

Same as with the a-bomb, before the first nuclear tests some people thought that the chain reaction would not stop. A certain Adolf Hitler was one of them.

But think about this. Today at lunch a collegue of mine came up with an interesting theory: the reason that we can find no extraterrestrial civilizations is that they all go poof when they build their first particle accelerator of considerable size.

I find this really an interesting theory.

[Tchocky]

Like Carl Sagan's answer to Fermi's paradox - All large civilisations destroy themselves before reaching the stars

[Steel_Tomb]

Guys the black holes metioned are MINI black holes, they only exist for a few seconds before simply "dissapearing". Its all nonsense.

[goldorak]

Guys the black holes metioned are MINI black holes, they only exist for a few seconds before simply "dissapearing". Its all nonsense.


:yep:

[Rhodes]

Guys the black holes metioned are MINI black holes, they only exist for a few seconds before simply "dissapearing". Its all nonsense.


:yep:

Being reading Stephen Hawking "The Universe in a Nutshell", and I remeber that he said a similar thing. That black holes that are very small or if the mass of a black hole would decress to zero that BH would dissapear. But I am talking of memory, I'll read it again and post here!

PS: no luck, can't find the page to put here. Need to read it again!

[baggygreen]

So, if it goes ahead, what advances are we hjoping to make from it???

[Blacklight]

So, if it goes ahead, what advances are we hjoping to make from it???

By probing the stucture of mater and spacetime at these levels (The most powerful levels ever done with this collider), we'll learn a lot about the laws of physics. We can finally put to test some of the equasions that up till now have been untestable because we didn't have powerful enough colliders before this one. Advancements in physics have led to advances in everything from computer to space technology. There's almost limitless scientific advancements that can be made from these studies.
Heck.. just a short while ago, a quantum computer (A computer chip the size of a molecule that or even an atom) was a thing of science fiction, and now we have people building them. We now have spacecraft flying through the solar system with ion drives. All possible by probing and experimenting to prove/disprove our current laws of physics. The thing is.. to test a lot of the theories requires high energy collisions and observations of the aftermath of such collisions.

[GlobalExplorer]

Guys the black holes metioned are MINI black holes, they only exist for a few seconds before simply "dissapearing". Its all nonsense.

I also remember this idea come up at several places, but this has usual been about civilizations using up their resources (environment, genes). That it could happen through a physical effect that can only be caused be extremely advanced technology is new I think.

Guys the black holes metioned are MINI black holes, they only exist for a few seconds before simply "dissapearing". Its all nonsense.

You're probably right. But no one should claim "it is nonsense" before the experiments were done. Especially in a field like this that is ripe with surprise.

[Zayphod]

So, if it goes ahead, what advances are we hjoping to make from it???
Well, the one thing they're really after is that "Higgs Boson" (hope I spelled that correctly). It's supposed to be the particle that gives matter "Mass".

[Raptor1]

So, if it goes ahead, what advances are we hjoping to make from it??? Well, the one thing they're really after is that "Higgs Boson" (hope I spelled that correctly). It's supposed to be the particle that gives matter "Mass".

But that's just to prove it's existence, we can't do anything with it...yet...

[Zayphod]

So, if it goes ahead, what advances are we hjoping to make from it??? Well, the one thing they're really after is that "Higgs Boson" (hope I spelled that correctly). It's supposed to be the particle that gives matter "Mass".

But that's just to prove it's existence, we can't do anything with it...yet...

Not at the moment, but when it comes time to create the Higgs Bomb, we'll need to know this stuff. :D

[Stealth Hunter]

"Hey Gordon, you left this at Black Mesa"

No worries, the crowbar dude will save us :p

Black Holes cannot be stopped by Gordon Freeman... not even Chuck Norris can stop them!:yep: :doh:

If we do open a mini black hole, and if it begins to devour matter and grow, we've got a very serious problem... and I should imagine that we're all doomed to certain death.:yep: It is possible that the black hole would simply break us down into huge amounts of tiny atoms and then would plunge us into another area of space (as one theory states). However, it's equally possible that the same theory is complete bollocks, in which case we'll all be destroyed, and our matter will be recycled and pushed out again from a white hole... though we won't be back to tell the story. In either case, we won't be back as humans... our atoms might be part of a new star or even a new galaxy, but we're gone for good as we know ourselves to be.

[Skybird]

Wouldn't a black hole, no matter the size, consume the matter of planet earth as soon as it was created, talking of 1-2 seconds at best? We do not talk about a little nasty entity that takes its time to devour its prey - but a BLACK HOLE that even defeats light, a nail's head of it being potentially dense enough to include all matter of the solar system, or a mass in that range.

If such a mini blackhole turns out to be a threat, the inhabitants of planet earth probably will not even have enough time to just take note of that, but will be gone as soon as the phenomenon jumps into existence, or not!? Destroying the universe it will not - there are some really big monsters out there, and we are still there. but destroying the earth and solar system, and then growing - well, that is what black holes do, or not? I remember to have read they also seem to be involved in the birth of new stars.

Sounds like a chance for rebooting the system. :lol:

[Stealth Hunter]

Wouldn't a black hole, no matter the size, consume the matter of planet earth as soon as it was created, talking of 1-2 seconds at best? We do not talk about a little nasty entity that takes its time to devour its prey - but a BLACK HOLE that even defeats light, a nail's head of it being potentially dense enough to include all matter of the solar system, or a mass in that range.

If such a mini blackhole turns out to be a threat, the inhabitants of planet earth probably will not even have enough time to just take note of that, but will be gone as soon as the phenomenon jumps into existence, or not!?

I should imagine that it would take some time for it to completely destroy Earth... if it needs to grow. However, if it does start to grow, then we can all be assured that we, our planet, and even our solar system are doomed to be broken down atom by atom, piece by piece.

It's a risky thing. We can't be sure of what is going to happen, but we can't be sure that this won't unlock secrets regarding the universe's coding and help us greatly in the scientific field. Perhaps instead of doing this on Earth, we should try to do it on another planet in the future... say after we colonize Mars?

[Skybird]

I should imagine that it would take some time for it to completely destroy Earth... if it needs to grow. However, if it does start to grow, then we can all be assured that we, our planet, and even our solar system are doomed to be broken down atom by atom, piece by piece.

It's a risky thing. We can't be sure of what is going to happen, but we can't be sure that this won't unlock secrets regarding the universe's coding and help us greatly in the scientific field. Perhaps instead of doing this on Earth, we should try to do it on another planet in the future... say after we colonize Mars?

Since black holes even "suck up" light, I cannot imagine it to be a long-taking process to suck up something of a diameter that light travels within two or three seconds (I haven't done the math right now, but the diameter of earth, how long does it take light to travel that distance? 12.000 kilometers, 300.000 km per second - wooh, not even a second, it seems). And if it is strong enough to destroy earth, it will consume the rest of the solar system as well, so it makes no point to have colonies on other planets - or even in the close stellar neighbourhood. If a black hole survives it's immediate birth-phase, you're done. The power of it maybe can be expressed in mathemaqtical terms, but it is beyond human imagination, and thus: totally abstract to us. Maybe that is why CERN is raising fears in some people, who see ghosts from nightmares were maybe there is nothing at all, while others ignore any risk completely and make mockery of it, convinced that something that is too abstract to be imagined cannot become a reality.

Somehow I have this image on my mind, a man lying in a bathing tub, then pulling the rubber plug - and getting flushed away along with the water. :D

[Stealth Hunter]

Well, for you to be sucked up, you'd have to pass within the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole (not even light can escape when it touches the radius). If you were just a foot outside of it, you'd feel sucking sensations, but you wouldn't be pulled in. You'd hear noise from the sucking, but eventually there wouldn't be anything since the atmosphere would be completely destroyed and we'd all be dead then.

Please take note that the Schwarzschild radius has an escape speed equivalent to the speed of light.

We can calculate the Schwarzschild radius by using the equation for escape speed.

vesc = (2GM/R)1/2

If you've got photons, or objects with no mass, then you can substitute c (the speed of light) for Vesc and find the Schwarzschild radius, R. This comes out to be:

R = 2GM/c2

If the Sun was replaced with a black hole that had the same mass as the Sun, the Schwarzschild radius would be 3 km (compared to the Sun's radius of nearly 700,000 km). This means that Earth would have to get very close to get sucked into a black hole in this scenario.

[Skybird]

Ah, that is real stuff you are talking, note that I indicated that I did not know solid scientific facts.

In your sun scenario, three questions: wouldn't the black hole neverthelss grow in mass and thus: gravity, by sucking up light and radiation, particals, and stellar debris, so that it expands and sooner or later would consume the solar system as well? Can a black hole continue to exist if it is not fed with additonal matter it sucks in? Would a black hole consumming additional matter not increase it's gravity and thus project increasing "sucking" power onto objects with mass in the solar system, first affecting the travelling paths of planets, and later attracting them until they touch the (expanding) Schwarzshield?

And wouldn't even a mini black hole nevertheless consume the devices of the laboratory being in touch with it's mini Schwarshield, that would expand at the rate it touches new matter while growing, and wouldn't that process, from planet earth's and it's inhabitant'S perspective, sooner or later go beyond control, necessarily? A mass strong enough to even catch up the light, hardly can be kept under control by trying to lock it inside a magnet field or an energyfield, since these energies also would just be sucked up!?

[Stealth Hunter]

Ah, that is real stuff you are talking, note that I indicated that I did not know solid scientific facts.

In your sun scenario, three questions: wouldn't the black hole neverthelss grow in mass and thus: gravity, by sucking up light and radiation, particals, and stellar debris, so that it expands and sooner or later would consume the solar system as well? Can a black hole continue to exist if it is not fed with additonal matter it sucks in? Would a black hole consumming additional matter not increase it's gravity and thus project increasing "sucking" power onto objects with mass in the solar system, first affecting the travelling paths of planets, and later attracting them until they touch the (expanding) Schwarzshield?

First answer: the black hole would continue to grow. As long as it had something to feed off of, it would get bigger and bigger. They can grow with masses that are billions the times of the mass of our sun, and they can have lifetimes that can exist for fractions of the universe's lifespan.

Second answer: black holes, in theory, will die if they are not fed matter. It's a form of "evaporation", shall we say. We've never actually observed this, mind you, so it is still just an idea, though we've got evidence to support it.

Third answer: it could increase its gravity if it grew in size. In the scenario I mentioned above (a black hole in place of the sun), the planets would orbit the hole as they always had before with the sun. "Sucking" in space really doesn't exist. Remember, space is a vacuum. Since there are no particles to produce a sucking effect, it's purely up to gravity. Eventually, the planets would be consumed by the black hole, and they'd be spaghettified, along with everything on them. However, they'd still be in their regular orbit pattern.

On a more interesting note, black holes are said to exist at the center of every galaxy (supermassive black holes, that is).

[Skybird]

"Sucking" is no precise term, yes, but a BH would nevertheless "suck" the circling planets by distorting the gravity in the solar system, and attracting them by attracting gravity, or not? Or better said: the BH being a strong and growing source of "sucking" gravity itself? for a while, planets would continue to be carried by their own "swing", but even a small gravity influence sooner or later would have distorted their travel paths so massively that they start to more and more change their movement around the sun/BH...!?

[GlobalExplorer]

Well, for you to be sucked up, you'd have to pass within the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole (not even light can escape when it touches the radius). If you were just a foot outside of it, you'd feel sucking sensations, but you wouldn't be pulled in. You'd hear noise from the sucking, but eventually there wouldn't be anything since the atmosphere would be completely destroyed and we'd all be dead then.

Please take note that the Schwarzschild radius has an escape speed equivalent to the speed of light.

We can calculate the Schwarzschild radius by using the equation for escape speed.

vesc = (2GM/R)1/2

If you've got photons, or objects with no mass, then you can substitute c (the speed of light) for Vesc and find the Schwarzschild radius, R. This comes out to be:

R = 2GM/c2

If the Sun was replaced with a black hole that had the same mass as the Sun, the Schwarzschild radius would be 3 km (compared to the Sun's radius of nearly 700,000 km). This means that Earth would have to get very close to get sucked into a black hole in this scenario.

with G being the gravitational constant, M the mass, and c of course light speed

I have no time to check with the suns mass, but for an object the suns size a radius of 3km sounds way off (intuitively). If it is true, first the mass of the sun would have to contract to a sphere smaller than 3km radius.

[Iceman]

Frankly as a European I say who the hell cares what the Americans think about CERN ?
They don't participate, have no legal jurisdiction so they can sue to their hearts content for all I care. The only practical result is thet they will be ridiculed even more for their "war on science". Man what a country that negates evolution and now wants to sue CERN for "the impossibily remote possibity of destroying earth". :rotfl:

Well if you bag on my American Bush then we can let the air out of your Fizzy experiment lol....you guys remind me of when cavemen were given fire by the monolith.

http://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/caveman.jpg

[Letum]

Well, for you to be sucked up, you'd have to pass within the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole (not even light can escape when it touches the radius). If you were just a foot outside of it, you'd feel sucking sensations, but you wouldn't be pulled in. You'd hear noise from the sucking, but eventually there wouldn't be anything since the atmosphere would be completely destroyed and we'd all be dead then.

Please take note that the Schwarzschild radius has an escape speed equivalent to the speed of light.

We can calculate the Schwarzschild radius by using the equation for escape speed.

vesc = (2GM/R)1/2

If you've got photons, or objects with no mass, then you can substitute c (the speed of light) for Vesc and find the Schwarzschild radius, R. This comes out to be:

R = 2GM/c2

If the Sun was replaced with a black hole that had the same mass as the Sun, the Schwarzschild radius would be 3 km (compared to the Sun's radius of nearly 700,000 km). This means that Earth would have to get very close to get sucked into a black hole in this scenario.
with G being the gravitational constant, M the mass, and c of course light speed

I have no time to check with the suns mass, but for an object the suns size a radius of 3km sounds way off (intuitively). If it is true, first the mass of the sun would have to contract to a sphere smaller than 3km radius.
Well, if the sun became a blackhole it would contract in to a sphere smaller that 1mm. 3km soulds like a reasonable Schwarzschild radius to me.

However, Stealth is wrong about some other bits....
A black hole sucks in things from an infinite radius in the same way the the gravity
caused by the mass of my hand attracts things to my hand from an infinite radius.
Even the most distant stars are effected by each move of my hand, but the effect
in inversely proportional to distance and proportional to mass.

The Schwarzschild radius is not the radius at which the black hole 'sucks things in'.
It is the radius at which it becomes impossible for light to avoid heading in the
direction of the singularity. i.e. it is the radius of the black bit of the black hole
when it is looked at through a radio telescope. Outside of the Schwarzschild radius
light will just be bent by the pull of the hole. Or to be more accurate, space is bent
and the light follows it.

If our sun collapsed into a singularity, the earth would continue to orbit as the mass
and gravity of the black hole would be the same as the mass and gravity of the
former sun. However, if the earth was stationary at the time, it would certainly get
sucked in from far outside the Schwarzschild radius.

If you where a foot outside of the Schwarzschild radius, but not moving closer to
the hole, you would be experiencing a force of gravity several million times that of
the Earth. That is not good for your health or completion.

[Skybird]

Today I've learned (and re-learned) some fascinating things! :D The greater the distance to the phenomenon, the greater the fascination. :lol:

[Raptor1]

I think those fancy terms and equations means we're all dead if a black hole appears and doesn't die after a millisecond...

[Stealth Hunter]

Well, for you to be sucked up, you'd have to pass within the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole (not even light can escape when it touches the radius). If you were just a foot outside of it, you'd feel sucking sensations, but you wouldn't be pulled in. You'd hear noise from the sucking, but eventually there wouldn't be anything since the atmosphere would be completely destroyed and we'd all be dead then.

Please take note that the Schwarzschild radius has an escape speed equivalent to the speed of light.

We can calculate the Schwarzschild radius by using the equation for escape speed.

vesc = (2GM/R)1/2

If you've got photons, or objects with no mass, then you can substitute c (the speed of light) for Vesc and find the Schwarzschild radius, R. This comes out to be:

R = 2GM/c2

If the Sun was replaced with a black hole that had the same mass as the Sun, the Schwarzschild radius would be 3 km (compared to the Sun's radius of nearly 700,000 km). This means that Earth would have to get very close to get sucked into a black hole in this scenario.
with G being the gravitational constant, M the mass, and c of course light speed

I have no time to check with the suns mass, but for an object the suns size a radius of 3km sounds way off (intuitively). If it is true, first the mass of the sun would have to contract to a sphere smaller than 3km radius.
Well, if the sun became a blackhole it would contract in to a sphere smaller that 1mm. 3km soulds like a reasonable Schwarzschild radius to me.

However, Stealth is wrong about some other bits....
A black hole sucks in things from an infinite radius in the same way the the gravity
caused by the mass of my hand attracts things to my hand from an infinite radius.
Even the most distant stars are effected by each move of my hand, but the effect
in inversely proportional to distance and proportional to mass.

The Schwarzschild radius is not the radius at which the black hole 'sucks things in'.
It is the radius at which it becomes impossible for light to avoid heading in the
direction of the singularity. i.e. it is the radius of the black bit of the black hole
when it is looked at through a radio telescope. Outside of the Schwarzschild radius
light will just be bent by the pull of the hole. Or to be more accurate, space is bent
and the light follows it.

If our sun collapsed into a singularity, the earth would continue to orbit as the mass
and gravity of the black hole would be the same as the mass and gravity of the
former sun. However, if the earth was stationary at the time, it would certainly get
sucked in from far outside the Schwarzschild radius.

If you where a foot outside of the Schwarzschild radius, but not moving closer to
the hole, you would be experiencing a force of gravity several million times that of
the Earth. That is not good for your health or completion.

I turn your attention to NASA:

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/black_holes.html

[GlobalExplorer]

.. but for an object the suns size a radius of 3km sounds way off (intuitively). If it is true, first the mass of the sun would have to contract to a sphere smaller than 3km radius.
Well, if the sun became a blackhole it would contract in to a sphere smaller that 1mm. 3km soulds like a reasonable Schwarzschild radius to me.

Ok after your further explanations I understand it now. I had in fact not realized that the space inside Scharzschild radius is only the part of the black hole that is "black" (because not even light can escape).

After I have read your explanation, 3km sounds reasonable for that zone.

I think we can rule out the danger of micro black holes because they do not have enough mass. But what about the other problem, the exotic matter? Is it possible that the higgs field is disturbed?

[200mg]

I read this sometime agoand IIRC when they say scientists they are in fact the god botherers version of scientists, I think it's the head gardener and his mate...remeber these lackluster twits in your prayers says enough I think.

I just wanted to defend myself real quick on this topic.... I in no way am affiliated with either of those scientists, nor do I support their claim. The "prayers" sentence was added as a joke, as I am an agnostic. I found this while googling my site and was surprised to see someone quoted my shorthand of the actual story.

www.nixlab.net/blog (http://www.nixlab.net/blog)

[GlobalExplorer]

I don't see why you should defend yourself. On the other hand, it's extremely naive to post things in the internet and be surprised if it gets spread.

[200mg]

I don't see why you should defend yourself. On the other hand, it's extremely naive to post things in the internet and be surprised if it gets spread.

I'm not surprised something from my blog got spread, I was just correcting the person that wrote this "remeber these lackluster twits in your prayers says enough I think."

As if my write up was an official press release on behalf of some Christian organization. I was just pointing out that the "prayers" line was a joke.

[Wolfehunter]

I have no problem with scientist working on black hole matter. What I have a problem with is they're doing it on earth. If safety protocol fails we're all dead in a flash. They should do this far away like in another star system. If they botch up no real loss.:hmm: I have no interest in being turned into particles.:smug: I still need more Rum and women hehehe.:rock: I hope my wife doesn't read the last part.:o :lol: