Ghosts of Bataan

[Ducimus]

Last night i was watching this show on the military channel called "Ghosts of Bataan". Now like a lot of people ive heard of the bataan death march, maybe glossed over it in a history book, but never really paid any attention to it. If i could find this program on google videos or youtube id post a link, it was very moving to hear the surviors talk. But one comment one of those vets made when weighed against the attrocities committed by the japanese was that at pearl harbor, around 2,400 people were killed. On the Bataan death march, the death count there is cited by some courses as between 6,000, and 11,000 men, other sources cite the figure as 18,000 men - AND YET... you never hear of it. No mention of it at all in the movies or anything.

So whats the big deal?

(i know wiki isn't the greatest, but its really hard to screw this info up)


The march, involving the forcible transfer of 75,000 American and Filipino prisoners of war[1] captured by the Japanese in the Philippines from the Bataan peninsula to prison camps, was characterized by wide-ranging physical abuse and murder, and resulted in very high fatalities inflicted upon the prisoners and civilians along the route by the armed forces of the Empire of Japan. Beheadings, cut throats and casual shootings were the more common and merciful actions — compared to bayonet stabbings, rapes, guttings (disembowelments), numerous rifle butt beatings and a deliberate refusal to allow the prisoners food or water while keeping them continually marching for nearly a week (for the slowest survivors) in tropical heat. Falling down, unable to continue moving was tantamount to a death sentence, as was any degree of protest or expression of displeasure.

Prisoners were attacked for assisting someone failing due to weakness, or for no apparent reason whatsoever. Strings of Japanese trucks were known to drive over anyone who fell. Riders in vehicles would casually stick out a rifle bayonet and cut a string of throats in the lines of men marching alongside the road. Accounts of being forcibly marched for five to six days with no food and a single sip of water are in post war archives including filmed reports.[2]

The exact death count has been impossible to determine, but some historians have placed the minimum death toll between six and eleven thousand men; whereas other post war allied reports have tabulated that only 54,000 of the 72,000 prisoners reached their destination— taken together, the figures document a casual killing rate of one in four up to two in seven (25% to 28.5%) of those brutalized by the forcible march. The number of deaths that took place in the internment camps from delayed effects of the march is uncertain, but believed to be high.

So where exactly is Bataan on the map? I'll wager most won't know.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/bataan.jpg



Some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March
http://ghostofbataan.com/
http://www.npswapa.org/gallery/album14

[les green01]

one death Marcher told me he was helping another Prisioner and they came under fire and that that guy beat him to the ditch the old veteran said he knew he was in trouble then and it really made him question about helping any others.

[momo55]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=33208681

[Sailor Steve]

When I went to join my ship they flew us to Clark AFB, then we went by truck from Clark to Subic Bay. Part of our route was along the path of the death march. Our Philipino truck driver told us a little about it - he was a boy at the time, and witnessed the prisoners passing through his village.

[Hylander_1314]

You have the Bataan Peninsula marked right. That type of treatment from the Japs in WWII is one of the reasons the American attitude in the Pacific was, no quarter asked for, none given.

Another good one to watch out for is, Hell in the Pacific. History International will run all 4 hours in two parts, where as the Military Channel ran a paraphrased 2 hour version of it. One former Marine that was on Iwo, and Okinawa, said they would blow up the caves with granades, and, or bury them with dozers, not knowing if they were military personel or civilians. And he made the comment that it would appear cruel to most people today, but he also added the statement "we were here, not you". This was done to save American lives, as too many men were being lost to trying to explore the caves for civilians or military personel. Some units even prided themselves on the fact that they never took any prisoners.

Was the island fighting the worst? For the Americans, and their allies, it was the equivilant of the fighting on the Eastern front, that took place the German Army, and the Russian Army. The Japanese treated the civilian population of conquered territory, as badly, or worse than the German troops did. They were known to take civilian women of the places they conquered and force them to be "comfort girls". No need to elaborate on that one. They were also known to take p.o.w.'s and make them dig waist deep ditches, then make the same p.o.w.'s stand in them with gasoline up to the knees. As far as igniting the gasoline, I don't recollect any accounts of it, but who knows what's been omitted from history. Pappy Boyington told of doing and enduring this type of treatment after he was picked by a Japanese sub after being shot down over New Georgia Strait. He even claimed to be in one of the news films the Japanese made of the prisoners having to do this.

A member of the R/C model boat club Dad and I belonged to back in Michigan many years ago had a member who was captured by the Japanese. He had some horror stories he would tell us about. The forms of torture were hidious, by any era's standards. But the "whites" or "round eyes" as the enemies of Japan were called, deserved nothing better according to their own "racist" views on the Americans, and Brits, and Austrailian, and New Zealand, and Dutch prisoners. And the civilians in internment camps faired none to much better either. Far worse than the internment camps that America used for the Japanese American civilians. Not to say that it was right, but no where near what their Japanese did to the civilians interred in the camps.

Check out another one called "The War" that PBS runs. It gives you a good history of the internment camps. Along with other aspects of the War.

It was a terrible thing to endure no matter what country you had the misfortune of being in at the wrong time.

[Ducimus]

Another good one to watch out for is, Hell in the Pacific. History International will run all 4 hours in two parts, where as the Military Channel ran a paraphrased 2 hour version of it.

I didnt know that. I just saw part 2 on the military channel. Bummer.

At the least, heres the paraphrased part 1 i posted elsewhere.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5876518045668753614&q=hell+in+the+pacific&ei=DykqSNH0KoSwrAPV0dSIDg

[Hylander_1314]

Another good one to watch out for is, Hell in the Pacific. History International will run all 4 hours in two parts, where as the Military Channel ran a paraphrased 2 hour version of it.

I didnt know that. I just saw part 2 on the military channel. Bummer.

At the least, heres the paraphrased part 1 i posted elsewhere.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5876518045668753614&q=hell+in+the+pacific&ei=DykqSNH0KoSwrAPV0dSIDg

Keep an eye out for it with Memorial Day coming up. Alsao watch out for it on Veteran's (Armistice) Day.

That's one I wish was left as original, as it signalled the end of WWI. The 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the 11th month, all hostillities will cease on the Western Front. VE-Day, and VJ-Day, and all the others should be individually respected too. Not combined into one, so as to dilute the meaning of each. It ruins and makes insignificant each of it's importance in our history, and what was sacrificed. But that's just my take on it.

I remember as a youngster growing up, we would celebrate each individually, for our family members who served. And if it fell on a school day, my folks would excuse me from school for it. And on Armistice Day, we kids in school would sell paper poppies for a buck each and donate the procedes to the veteran's hospitol in Detroit.

[Ducimus]

Watching these documentaries really opens ones eyes to the collective picture. One common misconception i think alot of people have (myself included at one point) was that the pacifc war was primarly America vs Japan. That simply isnt true. If one watchs the above linked 48 min documentary you'll see there were alot more countries involved then just America. The brutality at the hospital towards the end in above linked URL really is just... hard to comprehend.

Overall, i think its important to understand the entire theater, because then when you look again at the Pacific submarine war, suddenly all the pieces start falling into place once you have the larger picture and the role it played. Overall though, comparitvely, the submarine war was probably considered brutal by atlantic moral standards but tame compared to the rest of the pacific theater.

It really is a shame that the pacific theater doesnt get as much coverage as the European theater. Its almost like a forgotten war within WW2 itself, most certainly however, there is nothing glamorous about it at all. It's arguably the ugliest war ever fought.

[Hylander_1314]

And don't forget that the "lion's share" of men and material was sent to fight European War as Hitler was considered more dangerous than Tojo, and the Japanese Warlords.

You are correct that it wasn't just America's war. There were lots of others involved from the European countries who had established trade routes and colonial holdings, or post colonial holdings but remained on trading terms with the mainland and island countries. Austrailia and New Zealand were fighting for their lives in the Pacific. America had such an importance to the effort, as America provided a means of manufacturing that the Axis Partners just couldn't compete with. And America was out of range of the bombers that the Axis used. So while the Axis was bombed to rubble, America kicked into high gear, and by July of '43 outpaced all the Axis countries in production combined.

But for America, the Pacific War was personal. America was blindsided by an enemy who was thought to be treacherous in it's attitude of conducting war, from the initial attacks, to how the war was conducted to the end. The U.S. was also supplying it's Pacific Allies with material too. So that they cold continue the fight until the American forces were up to full potential.

The film, Letters from Iwo Jima, shows the American industrial power at it's height with all the ships from the task forces used to pommel the island into submission. It was a far cry from just 3 years earlier, when the U.S. didn't even have enough B-17s to mount a real bombimg mission. As they were considered too expensive for the war department's budget to mass produce in the numbers that were actually needed.

[steinbeck]

To Quote 'So where exactly is Bataan on the map? I'll wager most won't know'.

Why do you assume MOST people don't know? I'm in the UK and and I know about 'Bataan', the tunnels etc. How McArthur escaped in spite of his asserting 'we can hold' etc and also about 'Corregidor' and they only took off specialists and so forth! Perhaps you should have qualified it by saying 'most young people' won't know.

steinbeck....:smug:

[Madox58]

I'd have to agree with the 'Most people' statement.
Very few people do know what went on not only with the Death March,
but afterwards.
The death rates in the Camp, the 'Hell Ships' which made the Camps seem friendly?
It really goes on and on.
Not just Bataan, but the whole Pacific war is full of examples of mass slaughter.
One of my Grand Fathers fought in the Pacific.
I remember to this day some of the things he told me about.
As I grew older and would ask him for more stories,
He finally reached a point where he would not talk about it.
Not until I served in Combat did I understand why he felt that way.

[Torpex752]

I wonder how many people know about the "Rape of Nanking"?

Frank

[Hylander_1314]

I wonder how many people know about the "Rape of Nanking"?

Frank

I do. It was one of the most horrible attrocities on the Chinese Mainland in WWII. If not the most. But who knows what happenned in the back country, where there was no or very little contact with the outside world. Yes those would be smaller communities, but no less important in lives.

[banjo]

I would conjecture that you will find a higher than average knowledge of WW II in this forum.

Ducimus, I was more suprised to learn you have time to watch tv! :D

[Ducimus]

>>Why do you assume MOST people don't know?

Oh, i have every reason to assume most people in general don't know. Im not kidding, i have met people here (in real life) who did not know why we celebrate the 4th of july here in the US. Its been, beer, bbq, and fireworks for so long, and they haven't the foggest idea what its all about. Or at the very least, didn't know the year, 1776. Now if people can't even remember what july 4th, or the year 1776 is about, A little pennisnula like bataan is certainly not in their historical vocabulary. Another humorus observation: There was a war in Korea? Wow, no kidding?

>>Ducimus, I was more suprised to learn you have time to watch tv!

Havent been modding that much lately.

[Schroeder]

@Ducimus

Don't be to angry with your countrymen. I can asure you that this is not only an American problem....:-?

[AVGWarhawk]

Keep an eye out for it with Memorial Day coming up. Alsao watch out for it on Veteran's (Armistice) Day.



It all depends on what the networks want to show. I believe it was last year one of the channels that shows the older movies and specifically on Memorial Day they show films such as "Midway"....it was Chuck Norris movies all day. :down: I could not believe it.

Bataan, Nanking (probably the most brutal), death ships were men were kept in the holds without water/toilets for not days but weeks....unbelievable to be sure.

[Charlielima]

Hieneous! When I was in Japan in the Navy I embraced thier culture and even went shinto and still have it. I don't get were they have to treat people that way. We must of killed off all the evil bastards there. I am evil tho. When folks talk about interned terrorists I have a problem not mentioning pork chops in thier punishment. CL

[BH]

Not to mention that the japanese government said the day after FDR announced that the capture allied airmen of the doolittle raid had been executed that any captured allied airman would be"given a one way ticket to hell." and that IJN submarine attacked an austrailian hospital ship that was clearly marked.

[clayp]

To bad we only had two small bombs........

[joegrundman]

To bad we only had two small bombs........

Oh you had plenty of revenge clayp.

When it comes to the killing of the defenseless, the US can hold its head up with the rest of us.

[Ducimus]

And with that post, i predict this thread will spiral downward into another bout of US bashing. Perhaps this thread should now be moved to the general forum since its been effectively hijacked in both content and context. :rotfl:

[ancient46]

I can remember sitting down in front of the TV every sunday to watch "Victory at Sea" as a child. The stock footage from the war and the wonderfully matched score by Richard Rodgers really was a real treat for a youhg boy. The horrors and intense struggles of the Armed forces and merchant marine depicted in those 26 shows had great impact. The sacrifice of men and women of all countries should be revered forever by every person on the planet. What we have today was made possible by those who served.

Anyone interested in the shows can find them on a three CD set by Mill Creek. I bought mine recently at Wal-Mart from the value bin for five dollars. It is just as good as I remembered.

[joegrundman]

I think Douglas MacArthur is an intriguing person.

Did you know he was very highly regarded in Japan (by the Japanese) during the post-war years?

I find it remarkable that a man with such a personal history in the pacific war was able to put it all aside and deal with the conquered japanese with such respect and finesse.

One of his aphorims, badly mangled by me, is that "it's easy to deal with the Japanese- you just have to imagine you are talking to precocious 12 year olds" to which the Japanese apparently agreed.

[Hylander_1314]

Wow! Victory at Sea. When I was a youngster, that was mine and Dad's special time. I would even be allowed to set my homework aside so we could watch it.

Ducimus,

I hope this thread doesn't take a nasty downturn. Having these "history" oriented threads is always good, as I sometimes pick up little additions to historical references I may already be familiar with.

Can't argue with the issue about Independence Day. I see it too, especially in the younger crowds. No care except that it's a 3 and sometimes 4 day weekend. "Give them bread and circus'". :nope:

It's pretty cool when my daughter has friends over for a group effort on History homework. I have a very captive audience. And all it takes, is my daughter to say, Dad, can you explain what happenned in the colonies after the Declaration of Independence was signed? And away I go!

[bookworm_020]

Not to mention that the japanese government said the day after FDR announced that the capture allied airmen of the doolittle raid had been executed that any captured allied airman would be"given a one way ticket to hell." and that IJN submarine attacked an austrailian hospital ship that was clearly marked.

The Centuar was the hospital ship. I know as there is a plaque at the back of my church in memory of one of the nurses that went down with the ship.

[Schroeder]

And with that post, i predict this thread will spiral downward into another bout of US bashing. Perhaps this thread should now be moved to the general forum since its been effectively hijacked in both content and context. :rotfl:
I think that is a natural behaviour. If one side is accused of atrocities it will tend to defend itself. If defence isn't possible (I think the facts can't be denied here) they start their own offensive.
I think that is also because it seems (at least to me) as if Americans were often talking about how bad the others were but do seldom reflect on their own dark sides.

This might be wrong since I only get a small incomplete picture of discussions going on in the US but that is the way I (and probably a lot of other people) often see it.:roll:
But we might take such international forums as a chance to clear away prejudices and talk about it.:D

[piersyf]

I dunno. Personally if any person can make comments about what another country did to his country but others aren't allowed to say back, then there is a problem with honesty. We criticise the Japanese for denying the truth to their own youth through slanted history books, but as was pointed out at the beginning of this thread, the Bataan march is almost unknown outside military history circles. If the truth is to be remembered, let it be the truth of ALL participants, not just the winners. How many people know that the Japanese attacked the US because the US made a trade decision between Japan and China? China was the larger market and a government more pro-American so the US took sides in the Sino-Japanese war and stopped supplying oil to Japan. Sure, the Japanes had choices, like just give up after what, 8 years of fighting in China (morally shouldn't have been there in the first place) but you can't say the US wasn't aware that Japan might be somewhat miffed at the US response.
One of my Uncles died in New Guinea fighting the Japanese, and we too had our death marches. Changi is rather famous for us. The work of Sir Edward 'Weary' Dunlop for keeping so many men alive in the camp. The Burma railway. The group of female nurses who were beheaded on a beach after swimming ashore from a sunken transport, the British, Australian and Dutch women forced to 'serve' Japanese officers. It was a nasty war alright, but I know we looked on them as animals at the time (ie; sub-human)... just watch some of the newsreels. I've seen footage of my own RAAF crews machinegunning japanese lifeboats after sinking a ship and the enthusiastic "give the little nips what for' from the voice-over dude. Tell the truth, and let it be known from both sides, or we risk repeating the whole thing. Ignorance is how govenments lead us into these messes in the first place (altered expletives). And isn't ignorance a part of the complaint of this thread?

Oh BTW, the reason there are movies about the Battered Bastards of Bataan but not the march afterwards is that the idea of the largest mass surrender of US troops in WW2 and that the US government wrote them off (couldn't rescue them or supply them) is not considered pallatable to a US audience.

[joea]

To bad we only had two small bombs........

:nope:

Way to ruin this important thread, it was about rememberance not hatred.

Good post piersyf, I still think the moral respoinsibility, for that war, rests with the Axis agressors but we certainly should reflect on the wrong done by all countries then or since. We should not be perpetuating the hatred either.

[AVGWarhawk]

Good thread, please keep it on track fellas. Specifics and outcome of the A bomb have been discussed before. Other facets of the war are being discussed here and are interesting. Please keep the idea afloat.

[jerryt]

>>Why do you assume MOST people don't know?

Oh, i have every reason to assume most people in general don't know. Im not kidding, i have met people here (in real life) who did not know why we celebrate the 4th of july here in the US. Its been, beer, bbq, and fireworks for so long, and they haven't the foggest idea what its all about. Or at the very least, didn't know the year, 1776. Now if people can't even remember what july 4th, or the year 1776 is about, A little pennisnula like bataan is certainly not in their historical vocabulary. Another humorus observation: There was a war in Korea? Wow, no kidding?

>>Ducimus, I was more suprised to learn you have time to watch tv!

Havent been modding that much lately.

Boy you have that right! Thank you public education. :damn:

[TheSatyr]

The Pacific War was rascist on both sides...which is why it turned into such a vicious no holds barred kind of war. Plus you had the Japanese cultural belief in "no surrender" which in turn meant that any one who surrendered was a "non-person" and in their minds didn't deserve anything other than poor treatment. I've even read where some of the Japanese that were captured were basiclly ignored by family and freinds after the war BECAUSE they surrendered instead of dying. Thank God the Bushido crap has pretty much died out over there...for now.

Of course the Russian Front was extrememly brutal as well.

[Dantenoc]

Not really a big contribution to the thread but just a little thought:

Aside from all other reasons, there is one practical reason that the war in the Pacific was so brutal: that a very large part of it was fought in the air and in the sea.

That is to say, when you fight on land, very rarerly do you completely destroy the enemy... combut units retreat or disband long before reaching the 100% death rate. Worst case scenario (excluding death) you can abandon the fight and run for it! But at sea, or in the air... when a ship goes down EVERYBODY onboard goes down. When fighting on land, you can take pitty on your enemy and let him run away after you have defeated him, but when fighting in the air, sea or even in an island, there's no such posibility because theres no where to run to!

So yes, there was a lot of hate, but there were also practical issues at play that made the death rates higher.

This consideration, of course, does not excuse or apply to the way that japan treated it's prisioners, but rather explains why fighting at sea and air is such a "kill or be killed with no room for middle ground" deal.

[clayp]

To bad we only had two small bombs........

Oh you had plenty of revenge clayp.

When it comes to the killing of the defenseless, the US can hold its head up with the rest of us.


N ot with anyone who didnt start it first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[joegrundman]

OK, enough trolling, clayp. I can see where you're coming from.

there was a third bomb btw. It was en transit to Tinian at the time of the surrender and was of the plutonium (fat man) variety. Most of us in this world are glad that the surrender came no later and with no more death than it did, but your position is shared by many Koreans that i have met.

Why the Japanese were so cruel is worth asking. In WW1 the Japanese captured the German garrison in Tsing-tao, and apparently treated them in a friendly manner although the facilities were antiquated. This caused some confusion among German POWs.

I guess the difference in treatment of pows and other non-combatants lies in the contexts of the two wars, but this little story puts a question mark over the assumption that it was an ingrained cultural phenomenon.

[clayp]

OK, enough trolling, clayp. I can see where you're coming from.

there was a third bomb btw. It was en transit to Tinian at the time of the surrender and was of the plutonium (fat man) variety. Most of us in this world are glad that the surrender came no later and with no more death than it did, but your position is shared by many Koreans that i have met.

Why the Japanese were so cruel is worth asking. In WW1 the Japanese captured the German garrison in Tsing-tao, and apparently treated them in a friendly manner although the facilities were antiquated. This caused some confusion among German POWs.

I guess the difference in treatment of pows and other non-combatants lies in the contexts of the two wars, but this little story puts a question mark over the assumption that it was an ingrained cultural phenomenon.

You know I'm not trolling or anything else..I'm simply stating my views...The japs were ANIMALS and some not all germans were as bad..What the japs did to American POW'S and others makes anything we did pale in comparison..If you don't like me saying so I'm sorry but it is my right as it is for you to say your view..BUT if you vilify the US for the war with me around you are going to get a fight and if it gets me banned I don't care....

[piersyf]

To be honest I'm really glad that at least some have asked this thread to continue on an historical education type basis. I've been on many other sites where the general response has been like clayp's; if you say anything bad about the US you get severely flamed. I find it ironic that as an ex Australian soldier I was called a communist...
It may be of interest that the Japanese army was trained by the German army when it first formed, so the Japanese in WW1 had significant respect for their former educators. The treatment of prisoners in WW2 was very harsh by our standards, but not by theirs. How many willingly surrendered to us? What did they expect? Did you have many POW camps in the US for Japanese (apart from your own citizens)? We did in a town called Cowra. Read about it.
The Japanese fed us a diet consistent with penalty rations for their own army. That's right, a Jap soldier who had done wrong would have received the same general treatment our prisoners got. Secondly, if you read some of the literature the real mongrels were the Indians who changed sides. They even had the Japanese asking them to hold back. In camps in Japan it was the Korean guards trying to 'out Jap' the Japs.
Clayp, if you have something to say, say it. If you can back it up.
How many are aware that a condition on US entry into the war in Europe was the dissolution of the British Empire? Not to give 'freedom' to those 'colonial territories' but to give access to American business. Prior to WW2 US businesses couldn't get access to markets in the British Commonwealth because they all had favoured trade status with England. Look at the trade balances after WW2. You think it is a coincidence that the US was the only economy to increase after the war?
I have no problems with the US, except that it seems quite a few Americans are unwilling to consider ANYTHING unsavoury about their country (America never had colonial aspirations? What crap!). One of the great pleasures I get from this site is that there ARE Americans on here who WILL talk about the world as the rest of the world sees it, NOT just from an American perspective.

[Hylander_1314]

I dunno. Personally if any person can make comments about what another country did to his country but others aren't allowed to say back, then there is a problem with honesty. We criticise the Japanese for denying the truth to their own youth through slanted history books, but as was pointed out at the beginning of this thread, the Bataan march is almost unknown outside military history circles. If the truth is to be remembered, let it be the truth of ALL participants, not just the winners. How many people know that the Japanese attacked the US because the US made a trade decision between Japan and China? China was the larger market and a government more pro-American so the US took sides in the Sino-Japanese war and stopped supplying oil to Japan. Sure, the Japanes had choices, like just give up after what, 8 years of fighting in China (morally shouldn't have been there in the first place) but you can't say the US wasn't aware that Japan might be somewhat miffed at the US response.
One of my Uncles died in New Guinea fighting the Japanese, and we too had our death marches. Changi is rather famous for us. The work of Sir Edward 'Weary' Dunlop for keeping so many men alive in the camp. The Burma railway. The group of female nurses who were beheaded on a beach after swimming ashore from a sunken transport, the British, Australian and Dutch women forced to 'serve' Japanese officers. It was a nasty war alright, but I know we looked on them as animals at the time (ie; sub-human)... just watch some of the newsreels. I've seen footage of my own RAAF crews machinegunning japanese lifeboats after sinking a ship and the enthusiastic "give the little nips what for' from the voice-over dude. Tell the truth, and let it be known from both sides, or we risk repeating the whole thing. Ignorance is how govenments lead us into these messes in the first place (altered expletives). And isn't ignorance a part of the complaint of this thread?

Oh BTW, the reason there are movies about the Battered Bastards of Bataan but not the march afterwards is that the idea of the largest mass surrender of US troops in WW2 and that the US government wrote them off (couldn't rescue them or supply them) is not considered pallatable to a US audience.

Concerning U.S., and Japanese relations, it wasn't just oil that was cut off. The U.S. imposed a complete embargo of oil, steel, and the other materials needed for making war.

At the time of the attack on Pearl, the Japanese Navy was down to approximately 30 days of fuel oil for their ships. So a desparate nation with few resources of it's own will act desparately to continue on with it's agenda reguardless of what the rest of the world thinks. Especially if they, and or their government think that what they are doing is absolutely fine, and proper to do.

Racism was two sided in the Pacific war. Both sides considered the other to be inferior. There are many factors why the American, Australian, New Zealanders, and British troops did the things they did when confronting the Japanese. The Japanese attitude about fighting to the death, even with the use of booby-traps, and hidden grenades on the living who would act as though surrendering, and then blow themselves up and anyone close enough to get caught in the blast. The veteran soldiers knew what to expect, so out of self preservation, or saving the life of a fellow soldier, or friend, would tend to make you do things, you would not necesarilly do. But to the Japaese this was perfectly acceptable. It was also part of their idea, that if you inflict enough casualties on the enemy, they will sue for peace. Then Japan could keep what she had gained, and continue with the ideas of the Co-East Asian Prosperity Sphere that was set down by the Japanese Warlords.

I too had an Uncle who served in the Pacific. I just found photos from New Guinea, and the Philippines he had taken, but he and my Aunt were killed in a car crash in 1948, and Gramma buried those pictures away, and never told me about Uncle Ted serving in the artillary. Maybe because it brought back bad memories for her, as Aunt Mary was her younger sister.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

BUT if you vilify the US for the war with me around you are going to get a fight and if it gets me banned I don't care....

You should care. You fight, you get brigged. You continue, you get keelhauled.

You've all been warned. This isnt the place.

[joea]

Thing is people really do foget the context. The context in 1941 was that the Axis seemd on a roll, one sucess after another, the problems Germany had in Russia were not really apparent yet, after a brief stall in the muds of autumn, they picked up the advance when the ground froze and seemed to be on the way to Moscow. The very high casualties (more than the rest of European campaign together or at least comparable) were not appreciated, Germany had overrun Europe and everyone had written off the Soviets by this time.

Japan, bogged down in China, I think was encouraged to move by the German success and a probable free hand in Asia... the embargo was slapped in direct response to the Japanese move into French Indochina (controlled by Vichy France at the time). This showed a growing threat to the European holdings in Southeast Asia as well as the Phillipines, so I don't see how the US could not respond in some matter given that Japan was allied to Germany and the US was supporting those countries now at war or occupied by Germany (Uk and the Netherlands in this case). True a healthy dose of self-interest and realpolitik I mean no action was taken during the early stage of the Sino-Japanese war despite the moral outrage over the Rape of Nanking or the sinking of the Panay.

Some good posts here though.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Oh you got me started now.......

Back to the OP about why people generally ( at least in the U.S.) have not heard of the Bataan death march goes all the way back to the propoganda machine of those days.
Saying that if you go into the army and are captured you will go on a "death march" or be subjected to any other horrors was tantamount to political suicide at that point in the war.
Remember that in the first half of the century news coverage of the horrors of war was censored to agreat degree and volunteer enlistments would have dropped dramatically ( especially concerning the isolastionist sentiment that existed at the time)
Not that this is the only example of such a thing. Who remembers being taught about the holocaust? How many genocides since then have been commmitted that virtually no American knows about? In fact, who ever talks about the OTHER 6 million people killed in the holocaust? No one.
The simple truth is that if there is not a movie or a government hype about it Americans just don't know it. It is a disgrace to our culture that our media and our educational system are subject to censorship and filtration on par with the U.S.S.R. (unintentional though it may be)
Ok one more example. Excluding the presumably educated gamers who prefer more or less accurate simulations of WW2 submarine warfare, who in the U.S. knows that the civil war was started over a tax? Specifically an import tax? Ask anyone in this country and I will bet 80 percent say that it was over slavery. If the U.S. civil war was over slavery then why did Lincoln not free the slaves in the only two slave states he had sovereignty over?( West Virginia and Kentucky)
This is starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist rant but the fact is, there are very few instances of black and white in history and the winners write the history books.
I apologize for the bluntness of my remarks but as a veteran of OIF 2 and 3 I have seen firsthand the effect propoganda has had on people. In my unti the attitude was "screw'em" they're just ragheads".
Very well, if "ragheads" do not deserve freedom why draw the line there? Why not asians? Or whites? Or Hispanics? Or Jews? Or Blacks? Or Slavs? Or whatever?
Again I apologize for the length of this rant but in summary my point is that all too often "authorities" determine the shape of history and present conceptions. In particular the "Death March" was omitted because of the derogatory effects on morale.
Lesson learned; Remember the ideals of our forefathers and NEVER entrust your welfare to the government.

Constructive criticism is welcome.

[Silex]

Near my home city, about 15 km away had been a death march route for women from KLs in eastern europe. Its marked as an area in which digging or amateur archeology sites are forbidden. Bot about Baatan Ive heard first time ...

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Ever wonder why atrocities occur with POWs? In a recently viewed DVD I listened to one former (albeit, unrepentant SS Sturmbanfuhrer) relating their treatment of 12,000 russian POWs during Operation Zitadelle. He said because of the massive resources in men and material needed to maintain and feed POWs it was better to just eliminate them. This cold and brutal solution made military sense to them as materials and men were needed for the Ost Front. The same argument was made for the resources used in the concentration camps. The Japanese were pretty brutal in their treatment of POWs as their culture view submission and retreat and even surrender with disdain. That's why may of them resorted to suicide (aka the shouts of 'Banzai!' and kamakazee). In contrast the US treated captured SS men and treated them with almost citizen-like amenities in America (this is not bashing the US) knowingly or unknowingly that their servicemen were brutalized on the other side. Isn't war strange?

[GerritJ9]

Actually, Hylander, Japan had been stockpiling oil for a long time and had about two years worth of stocks when the oil embargo was announced. Prior to the embargo, Japan had been trying to get a monopoly on NEI oil supplies through trade "negotiations", but thanks in no small part to the Dutch being able to read the Japanese diplomatic signals (see "Nishi No Kaze, Hare" by Robert D. Haslach) they got nowhere. In Malaya, Japanese espionage and subversive activities were widespread well before the war (see Peter Elphick's "Singapore: The Pregnable Fortress" among others); I don't have any sources for subversion in the Philippines or the NEI but it can be safely assumed that they were very active there as well. Japanese expansion southward was practically guaranteed regardless of whether the US, Britain and the Netherlands blocked all trade with Japan or not- the oil embargo merely accelerated the timetable.
Given the Japanese Army's correct behaviour towards POWs and civilians during the Russo-Japanese War and the Great War, their barbarity in China and the rest of Asia is incomprehensible- it was an official policy as the Tokyo Trials showed (see see Arnold Brackman's "The Other Nuremberg: The Untold Story Of The Tokyo War Crimes Trials").

[piersyf]

Like I said, one of the things I love about this forum is you can find open minded Americans here. I didn't want to go to the 'dehumanising' of modern enemies, but thatnk you undersealcpl for doing so. I love the discussion in 3 Kings about it... rag head and camel jockey is OK but dune coon or sand ****** isn't (from a negro sergeant). Says a lot.
Yes the embargos on Japan before WW2 were an attempt to show displeasure, but (I think) it is in the Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire (written by an American) that states the US made its choices on economic grounds.
And yes, propaganda was a major factor in the war, one in which the US does still suffer from the so called 'free press'. A friend of mine (an American living in California) came out for a visit and stopped over in Fiji for a scuba dive, just in time for the second coup. When she got out and arrived in Oz the first thing she wanted to do weas ring home and tell her mother she was OK. Her mother's reply was 'coup? what coup?' Not important enough to report in the US, so it just didn't happen.
The US isn't the only country to suffer from this, but the US IS a powerful giant on the world stage, a theoretical democracy that is put in place by a largely ignorant and uneducated populace, at least in terms of geopolitics and history. The world's largest lynch mob is the result. Having open and honest discussions with people from other places is a way of getting 'alternate views'. See, I'm not saying I'm right, just that I see the world from a different place. Open and honest from your perspective is a start, but also be willing to take on new information as it comes up (and is verifiable)

[Hylander_1314]

Thanks Gerrit,

Will have to write a few more notes in my books on this. But that's how I get a clearer understanding of things. Just goes to show that authors don't always get the facts straight.

Piersyf,

Actually, the United States of America was forged as a Constitutional Republic. All one has to do is recite the Pledge of Alliegence, or recite the title to, The Battle Hymn of the Republic. My daughter got a real eye-openner when I gave her copies of The Federalist Papers, The Anti-Federalist Papers, and Common Sense. These were all very important in helping to shape the fledgling government of America, in her post colonial days. But she is one of the few who now has an understanding of where and how America's history began. And the different forms of government that was debated by the Founding Fathers. All one has to do is quote from history, Benjamin Franklin's responce when asked by a Mrs. Powell of Philadelphia, "Well Dr. Franklin, do we a republic, or a monarchy? You have a republic madam, if you can keep it".

Gotta cut this one short, take out the trash, feed the dog, and then off to training class.

[clayp]

BUT if you vilify the US for the war with me around you are going to get a fight and if it gets me banned I don't care....

You should care. You fight, you get brigged. You continue, you get keelhauled.

You've all been warned. This isnt the place.

I didn't notice this yesterday...Are you threating me?:down:

[ReallyDedPoet]

BUT if you vilify the US for the war with me around you are going to get a fight and if it gets me banned I don't care....
You should care. You fight, you get brigged. You continue, you get keelhauled.

You've all been warned. This isnt the place.
I didn't notice this yesterday...Are you threating me?:down:
clay, KP is not threatening you, however he has warned folks, including yourself to keep the conversation here above bar and on topic regarding the Original Post.

So no threats, SUBSIM has rules for posting, we just ask folks here to respect them.


RDP

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

OH, BOY THE DRAMA. I LOVE IT!:lol:

C'mon play nice now.

[ReallyDedPoet]

OH, BOY THE DRAMA. I LOVE IT!:lol:


Ahhhh, the mob arrives to check out the show. Sorry, no drama here :D
Move along now :yep::lol:

Ok, back on topic.....


RDP

[ancient46]

"War never changes." If you really look at it, war is an atrocity all by itself. Unfortunately sometimes it is a necessary evil, and people are willing go to die in defense of their way of life. There will always be people who see themselves as superior to others and want to dominate the world, they must be stopped. Others want you to live your life the way they do or want you to stop doing the things they would never do, they also need to be stopped. If they are willing to resort to violence to get their way, we must also respond in kind. War is often a result of intolerance.

These problems are neither racial or country specific they are character faults in the worst of us. If the worst come to power, which they so often do when the conditions are right, war happens. We must never lose sight of what war really is and the cruel and heartless acts that can be done in it. We need to educate our children about Bataan and similar horrifying events that political historians deem unsuitable for public education. After all, those who do not learn from history are doomed ro repeat it.

[GerritJ9]

Hylander, a bit off the original topic here....... but Mark Parillo's "The Japanese Merchant Marine in WWII" has some illuminating statistics about Japan's oil problem. At the start of the Pacific War, Japan had some 3.6 million tons of HFO in stock, plus about 0.6 million tons of Avgas. Consumption of HFO and Avgas up to March 31st 1942, when the conquest of the Malay Barrier was pretty much complete, was about 0.6 million and 0.1 million tons respectively- and no replenisment. Capturing the oil fields and refineries in SE Asia did not solve Japan's long-term oil problem by any means. First of all, the oil wells on Borneo, Tarakan and Sumatra had been put out of action and putting them back into service would take time; ditto for the refineries of Singapore, Sumatra and Java. But here another serious problem appeared: transport. Pre-war, Japan's oil supply had been largely carried to Japan in foreign (i.e. US, British, Dutch, Norwegian and other) tankers, Japan's tanker fleet was simply much too small. With the embargo being declared, and certainly after 8/12/1941, these ships were no longer available to Japan- plus, many of the Japanese tankers were requisitioned for supporting naval operations. Ergo, only a fraction of the required transport capacity was available to supply the Home Islands. Unlike Germany's European conquests, the territories Japan conquered had at best a small industrial base- no significant SE Asian shipyards existed for instance; no aero industry; no steelworks etc. So the IJA and IJN couldn't turn to local manufacturers for their requirements- almost EVERYTHING had to be shipped to Japan to be turned into ships, guns, planes, tanks etc. first- then, the results of that industrial activity had to be shipped out to the front over 1000s of miles.

After the oil embargo was announced, Japan had two choices- slow strangulation to a point when oil stocks would be so low that even defensive action would be out of the question and thus result in bowing to US demands; or war, seizing Malaya, the Philippines and the NEI and hoping that the Allies would accept the fait accompli. The first choice was out of the question- it would have meant HUGE loss of face in Asia, where (even today) loss of face is NOT ACCEPTABLE. The Western leaders totally underestimated this aspect.

Going back to the original topic, Bataan is one of the better known atrocities in the West, together with the Burma Railroad. But who remembers others? Although the IJA was responsible for most, the IJN was also responsible for their share, now half-forgotten: the treatment of Dutch and Australian POWs on Ambon, or the murder of survivors of ships sunk by Japanese submarine crews. Most in the western world can name several of the Nuremberg defendants- Göring, Ribbentropp, Jodl, Keitel, von Papen, Schacht, Kaltenbrunner, Seyss-Inquart, Frank........... But ask for names of those on trial in Tokyo and most will only be able to name Tojo. The west never really showed much interest in the Tokyo trials and unfortunately still doesn't.

[les green01]

here some others wake,manila in 45