KMS tirpitz

[d5j55]

Just last week i finished a 30 page essay on the tirpitz and commaired any other ship it was awsome... well if you include all 72 guns and the fact that it survived for 4 years of being attacked. now having a ship like that would be quite fun.

[Sailor Steve]

Were you aware that the Iowa class carried more than 150 guns of various types? Tirpitz and her sister, Bismarck, were indeed powerful ships, but they had plenty of company; and most of them would have fared about as well as Tirpitz, given the nature of the attacks.

I'm not knocking a great ship; just trying to keep it in perspective.:sunny:

[d5j55]

Were you aware that the Iowa class carried more than 150 guns of various types? Tirpitz and her sister, Bismarck, were indeed powerful ships, but they had plenty of company; and most of them would have fared about as well as Tirpitz, given the nature of the attacks.

I'm not knocking a great ship; just trying to keep it in perspective.:sunny:

well you do have a point

[andycaccia]

Those battleships were some of the most effective ones of the entire war. Maybe not as powerful as Yamato or Iowas, but indeed fearful vessels.
I'd like to command one.

[Doolittle81]

Just last week i finished a 30 page essay on the tirpitz and commaired any other ship it was awsome... well if you include all 72 guns and the fact that it survived for 4 years of being attacked. now having a ship like that would be quite fun.

Cut-and-pasted from some Navy Forum: Yamato's main armanant was nine 18.1/45 guns, divided into threes per turret. Secondary armanant was 12 6.1 guns, divided into twos per turret. Additinal secondary was also twelve 5 in guns. Main AA armanant was some 150 25mm guns. An additinal 4 thirteen milimetres was also used.

That's about 187 guns. A LOT!

[Raptor1]

Those battleships were some of the most effective ones of the entire war. Maybe not as powerful as Yamato or Iowas, but indeed fearful vessels.
I'd like to command one.

Bismarck sunk the Hood then sunk herself, Tirpitz did NOTHING throughout the entire war but sit around in the Baltic and force the Royal Navy to tie down masses of Aircraft and Ships for Convoy Defence in the case that she might sortie

But as Merchant Raiders, which was their intended purpose, Both could've been very effective

[ivank]

TO get back on subject, anyone willing to make one?

[Doolittle81]

TO get back on subject, anyone willing to make one?

We are off subject?

[akdavis]

I feel compelled to link this article whenver biggest and baddest comparisons come up:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

:hmm:

[d5j55]

I feel compelled to link this article whenver biggest and baddest comparisons come up:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

:hmm:
well some of that stuff i do aggree with but some i don't, mainly because i just spent an hour a day for about 70 days writing an essay on the bismarck and the commparison from "him" to the other capital ships. the armmament was most definantly not the biggest but it was one of the fastest. also the tirpitz had many more AA guns almost as much as the other ships, and the bismarck used KC n/a which was an offly good steel even better than most other types. sorry for the bold i couldn't get it off. :up:

[akdavis]

I feel compelled to link this article whenver biggest and baddest comparisons come up:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

:hmm:
well some of that stuff i do aggree with but some i don't, mainly because i just spent an hour a day for about 70 days writing an essay on the bismarck and the commparison from "him" to the other capital ships. the armmament was most definantly not the biggest but it was one of the fastest. also the tirpitz had many more AA guns almost as much as the other ships, and the bismarck used KC n/a which was an offly good steel even better than most other types. sorry for the bold i couldn't get it off. :up:

I think the article they reference for the armor comparison is the product of far more than 70 hours of research:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm

Bismark/Tirpitz did have an incredible secondary battery, on par with Iowa/South Dakota and Yamato for anti-ship fire, but its usefulness against aircraft was far less than US ships secondary batteries (but perhaps equal or greater than any other contemporary, fire control aside). I simply quote the authors here: "Iowa and SoDak have by far the best heavy AA suite of the seven. The 5"/38, coupled with the Mark 37 fire-control system, was the best heavy AA system of the war. Period."

On the light AA armament, I think their ranking of Bismark/Tirpitz (and note they used the late-war Tirpitz light AA complement in the comparison, not the much lighter early war complement) below Iowa, South Dakota King George V is indisputable. Not even considering superior, rate of fire, fire-control and proximity fuses, the US/British ships exceed Bismark/Tirpitz in throw weight/minute to a very significant degree. Iowa = 31,392 lbs./min.; Tirpitz = 6,713 lbs.

Combining the secondary battery and light AA leads to the following rates: Iowa = 48,992 lbs./min.; King George V = 35,593 lbs./min.; and Tirpitz = 20,677 lbs./min.

Then factor in the increasing use of fire control radar and proximity fusing on all the AA guns on the US/British ships and the comparison is a foregone conclusion.

[woofiedog]

A few photos of the USS Massachusetts I took during a visit in 2005.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture113.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture087.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture085.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture081.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture074.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture091.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/Picture028.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/9-26-05034.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/9-26-05074.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v438/woofiedog/9-26-05037.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

...and the bismarck used KC n/a which was an offly good steel even better than most other types. sorry for the bold i couldn't get it off. :up:
Yes, Krupp Cemented Armor is arguably the best that can be made. But, it was developed in 1893, and the formula sold to other countries, so KC has been in use by everyone since before 1900; that is to say that all battleships use it. I say arguably, because German Wotan was an improved development of it, but so was American STS, and there have been many discussions over the years as to whether either of those was really any better than the original. My point here is that Bismarck's armor was no better structurally than anyone elses; they were all KC.

[Snaptrap]

Battleship photos, essays, and general warship discussion. What exactly does all of this have to do with modding?

[Sailor Steve]

True it would have been better in the General Topics forum, but a lot of people don't even know it exists.

[Doolittle81]

Battleship photos, essays, and general warship discussion. What exactly does all of this have to do with modding?

Are we uptight or what? Take a nap, mate.

[Doolittle81]

True it would have been better in the General Topics forum, but a lot of people don't even know it exists.

Put me on that list who didn't know of the GT Forum.

I was browsing this Forum and I saw a thread topic that was of interest...I made some comments on the subject of that thread. I really don' t see what the problem is...

If a UBI MOD can do some magic and transfer this thread to the PROPER GT Forum, that would be fine with me...:)

[akdavis]

If a UBI MOD can do some magic and transfer this thread to the PROPER GT Forum, that would be fine with me...:)

Uh oh, someone's lost.

[Snaptrap]

Battleship photos, essays, and general warship discussion. What exactly does all of this have to do with modding?

Are we uptight or what? Take a nap, mate.

It makes searching for relevant topics that much easer. It's an inquiry, not a complaint. Mate.

[Raptor1]

GT Forum? I didn't know Subsim did racing (Or maybe that's GT for Gas Turbine?), Much less that there were shadow-Ubi mods lurking around...hmm...I smell a conspiracy!

[badaboom]

:D WoofieDog,Those are beautiful shots! I was fortunite to be able to take a trip to Pearl Harbour with my family last year,Here are a few shots of "The Mighty Mo"BB 63 Iowa class USS Missouri:rock:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/Picture008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/Picture011.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/Picture013.jpg
The Buisness end of "The Mighty MO" the front 6 .16 inchers,one gun can fire the equevalent of a VW Beatle 20 miles!!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/Picture020.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/Picture018.jpg

And one of "The Pacific Avenger" The SS Bowfin one of the most successful fleat boats of the War

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/badaboom/Picture002.jpg

I'm still kicking myself for not jumping off the tour bus and getting in line to see The Bowfin:damn:



















'

[Sailor Steve]

True it would have been better in the General Topics forum, but a lot of people don't even know it exists.

Put me on that list who didn't know of the GT Forum.

I was browsing this Forum and I saw a thread topic that was of interest...I made some comments on the subject of that thread. I really don' t see what the problem is...

If a UBI MOD can do some magic and transfer this thread to the PROPER GT Forum, that would be fine with me...:)
No problem at all that I see, making comments wherever the thread is. It wouldn't be an UBI moderator though - they have nothing to do with SubSim. As for the forumses, click at the top of the page where it says 'SUBSIM Radio Room Forums', or at the bottom on the 'Forum Jump' link. There's lots of cools stuff around here a lot of folks apparently don't know about.

[Doolittle81]

:D WoofieDog,Those are beautiful shots! I was fortunite to be able to take a trip to Pearl Harbour with my family last year....


I'll be in Hawaii in July...besides the Missouri and Bowfin, what other WWII ships/boats are there to visit?

















'[/quote]

[Doolittle81]

...No problem at all that I see, making comments wherever the thread is. It wouldn't be an UBI moderator though - they have nothing to do with SubSim. ....

Sorry...I forgot what Forum(s) I was on... When things get testy, it's usually at the UBI Forums...I guess that's why I made the mistake.

Here at Subsim it seems 99.9% casual, cooperative, and civil.

[Hitman]

Bismarck/Tirpitz vs. Iowa = Apples vs. Onions :)

Bismarck class ships were created as commerce raiders in support of the lighter "Pocket Battleships". The original idea of the german high command was to send Bismarck, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen to the Atlantic for operations. Bismarck would enter the action only if the convoy was escorted by one battleship, specially an old one (Revenge class, etc.) with the idea of drawing it away from the convoy and allowing the other cruisers to sink the merchants. It was never intended to be a sea superiority ship (plan Z considered for that purpose a series of ships larger than Bismarck itself plus an aircraft carrier class, the "Graff Zeppelin" one)

Iowas indeed were created for the purpose of engaging a mighty -but more antiquated- surface fleet, the japanese one in a decisive confrontation. The experience gained with the South Carolina and North Dakota classes (Which participated in many operations and engaged in savage surface battles against japanese BBs) was decisive to make the Iowas the most refined BBs ever put afloat. Sadly for them the BB era was over and they acted mainly as carrier escorts through the remaining of the war, plus delivering shore bombardment in support of beach landings.

[Raptor1]

Iowas indeed were created for the purpose of engaging a mighty -but more antiquated- surface fleet, the japanese one in a decisive confrontation. The experience gained with the South Carolina and North Dakota classes (Which participated in many operations and engaged in savage surface battles against japanese BBs) was decisive to make the Iowas the most refined BBs ever put afloat. Sadly for them the BB era was over and they acted mainly as carrier escorts through the remaining of the war, plus delivering shore bombardment in support of beach landings.

Actually, The Iowas were designed as escorts for the Carrier Task Forces, Which is why they are so fast (33 knots), While the canned Montanas were designed to directly engage and destroy the opposing Battleship Fleet

[badaboom]

:D WoofieDog,Those are beautiful shots! I was fortunite to be able to take a trip to Pearl Harbour with my family last year....


I'll be in Hawaii in July...besides the Missouri and Bowfin, what other WWII ships/boats are there to visit?

You Lucky Old Sea Dog You!!!!!:D Of course there is The Arizona Memorial site/tour which I highly recommend,extremely humbling experience to say the least,There is also the Ford Island Museum,which I didn't get to see either:damn: I would most certainly give myself a full day at Pearl,I was on a tour of Oahu Island for the day,so Pearl was only a portion of that day.If I ever get back to those beautiful Islands I will stay and see everything at Pearl.:)

















'[/quote]

[W4lt3r]

Bismarck/Tirpitz vs. Iowa = Apples vs. Onions :)

Bismarck class ships were created as commerce raiders in support of the lighter "Pocket Battleships". The original idea of the german high command was to send Bismarck, Gneisenau, Scharnhorst and Prinz Eugen to the Atlantic for operations. Bismarck would enter the action only if the convoy was escorted by one battleship, specially an old one (Revenge class, etc.) with the idea of drawing it away from the convoy and allowing the other cruisers to sink the merchants. It was never intended to be a sea superiority ship (plan Z considered for that purpose a series of ships larger than Bismarck itself plus an aircraft carrier class, the "Graff Zeppelin" one)

I've researched this plan Z and the battleships that were never put into constructions were the H39, H41, H42 and H44. All battleships we're around 75000 tons up to 113000 tons (H44) and armed with 4x 16"/18" dual cannons and 7x (side) 3.47" or 88mm dual DP cannonade systems with unknown amount of small arms.

But if the H44 would have been put into action, it would've had bigger guns then the yamato (some people say it would been even 20.1") but since it was never built, we cant say is it true or not.

And then the carriers, it included the KMS Seydlitz wich was mostly refitted on a heavy cruiser chassis and it was almost finished (around 90%) when it was called off and scrapped to use the materials for more U-boats, the Graf Zeppelin (2 was planned) and an Europa-class carrier that would've been even longer then any other carrier that was in use those days.

These ships are included in different game though, called "Navyfield" wich is a free MMO tactical game DLable from www.navyfield.com (http://www.navyfield.com) / www.navyfield.eu (http://www.navyfield.eu) / www.navyfield.co.kr (http://www.navyfield.co.kr) / www.navyfield.jp (http://www.navyfield.jp) etc

But back to the topic then...

[Raptor1]

I don't think either the H-44 (Armed with 8x 20" Guns) or the Super Yamato (A-150, Hull Numbers 798 and 799) design (Armed with 6x 20.1" Guns) would've worked, When Yamato fired everyone had to be shielded or they would get serious burns and/or a concussion, I doubt any hull made in WWII could handle guns over 18.1"

[Hitman]

Actually, The Iowas were designed as escorts for the Carrier Task Forces, Which is why they are so fast (33 knots), While the canned Montanas were designed to directly engage and destroy the opposing Battleship Fleet

IIRC the experience gained told the designers to make the Iowas faster for carrier escort purposes than they were originally. Though you might be right, must check my sources :hmm: (A book I readed some years ago about the Pacific War written by a spanish naval officer)

Cheers

[Sniper_Fox]

Bismarck sunk the Hood then sunk herself, Tirpitz did NOTHING throughout the entire war but sit around in the Baltic and force the Royal Navy to tie down masses of Aircraft and Ships for Convoy Defence in the case that she might sortie

But as Merchant Raiders, which was their intended purpose, Both could've been very effective


not really if the germans put their all their naval budget into uboats and the Hilfskreuzers they would have kicked royal navy butt. Fortunately they didn't.

look how successful the HK's were! http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/miscellaneous/hilfskreuzer/hilfskreuzer_introduction.html

In anycase i'd love to rock it out with the tirpitz anyway. It'd be much more interesting as a battleship than a merchant raider.