Based on this info...

[Ducimus]

I tend to value first hand account info above textbook info, as i value the opinion of a person who was there above all others.

So then, based on this info, should i increase crush depth in TM?

A salmon class at 520 feet:
http://www.subvetpaul.com/Her_Last_Dive.html


The word was passed-- Take stations For "Battle Surface" and I returned to the control room. While we were waiting to get up to 300 ft. Doc. Borglund was passing out drinks with a Bible in one hand and a bottle in the other "This is the end."

The Batho-thermo-graph located in the control room went off the scale at
520 ft. The Salmon was only designed for 250 ft. We had a 15-20 degree up angle.



A Gato class at 700 feet
http://www.subvetpaul.com/Geck1.htm


July 6, 1943 found GURNARD moving off to the northwest of the Palau Islands and working her way back toward Toagel Mlungui Passage. GURNARD made contact and maneuvered to take a position to attack a convoy but two depth charges from an unseen aircraft exploded close aboard causing momentary, loss of power to the Submarines' diving planes and steering. GURNARD immediately took a steep "up" angle and headed for the surface. Before she would break the surface within easy gun range of the enemy warships, her upward motion was finally stopped at the depth of only 55 feet.

She now "dropped like a rock" with a steep down angle on her planes. Before depth control could be regained, she surpassed the designed safety depth of 348 feet and it is believed she passed 700 feet. The depth gauge was well up against the limit pegs and the sea pressure gauges used to calculate depths beyond the depth gauges were only designed to calculate a depth of 650 feet.

In spite of this harrowing experience, GURNARD suffered no major damage and all the leaks caused by the stress of the extreme depth pressure were sealed. Concern through all of this could be observed on the faces of every crewmember and a sigh of relief could be heard when depth control was finally regained. No panic was experienced through this ordeal, as everyone was busy putting into use the training that is so diligently practiced daily for use in any emergency that may occur.


An out of control Balao at 1011 feet by the bow:
http://www.usschopper.com/Chopper%20Deep%20Dive%20Report.htm

[Observer]

I would say no. Primary accounts tend to be very colorful, but are often incorrect when it comes to details. Further, these accounts represent the statistical "tails" so to speak rather than the mean of the population. I'm sure there are many instances where boats did not successfully return from dives to these depths. Problem is that first hand accounts aren't really possible. I'm not trying to be glib, I'm just saying that for statistical purposes first hand accounts should be handled very carefully.

I would like to see some randomization based on a log normal statistical distribution. The log normal distribution could take into account these first hand reports while also allowing for the "book" information to be factored in. I think it would be best for the game to randomize the data automatically. Since the game doesn't have this ability on the boats, it could be done manually instead.

[Ducimus]

Well, to offset the extra latitude in crush (crash) depth, i was thinking bout increasing the crash speed as well. So, in theory, reaching crush depth, means just that... CRUSH, and lights out!

Obviously this would get a little tricky in terms of a sub with less then 100% H.I.

In both cases i think the player would be less likely to want to dive that deep.

[Observer]

I'd have to think on that one. It's possible and quite easy to set up a log normal distribution in excel and use that to calculate a P50 or P75 crush depth. Perhaps if combined with a higher crash speed this might work, keeping in mind that crash speed impacts other areas as well.

I think with what I'm doing with the damage model, the <100% HI might be okay with a higher crash speed. I've got a zone problem to work out first, but I'll post screenies in the usual place as soon as I get it sorted.

[Ducimus]

>>keeping in mind that crash speed impacts other areas as well.


Such as? Contrary to popular belief, i don't know everything :88)

[Hylander_1314]

The crush depth the manufacturer states isn't the maximum before your sub implodes. They only recommend going that deep "safely". SH3 has an option to dive deeper than the posted crush depth, but leaving the varible there, that you can have 2 Gato Class boats, and one won't survive passed 500 ft, and the other will get all the way down to 700 ft. It's a guessing game for the captain as to how far he / she dares to dive. That's the real world.

So for me, having your sub implode as soon as you go passed the red line (crush depth) with no damage, or very little, is an immersion killer for me. Sometimes that's your only hope of escape.

So I vote to have it the crushing hulls at a depth beyond the shipyard's stats, but to have it varible from boat to boat, but also varible there too, so you don't get stuck with the, let's say Seawolf, SS 197 Sargo boat, and your boat crushes at 500 ft the first time, but next time you get her in a new career, you can go deeper maybe, or not.

Just my 2 bits on the topic.

[Ducimus]

Saftey depth is the yard specification. Its annotated with the red line at 250, 300, and 400 ft depending on boat. When you hit the D key (dive planes set to normal dive), it brings you to this depth. This depth does no exist in the submarines data files except for the CFG file, and is totally independant of the acutal crush depth.


Crush depth is the implosion point (in the game files its listed as crash depth). Sources vary on this. Some will cite saftey depth * 1.4, others will cite "double the saftey depth".

Crash speed is how fast your sub loses hitpoints once the crash depth has been obtained. Set this low enough, and regardless of acutal crush (crash) depth, your sub can go fairly deep for limited amounts of time. (the problem i have with this is its very easily abused and reaching a depth of say 800 feet in a Porpoise is ludicrious, regardless if the hull is losing HP's or not) Increasing this variable removes this "ability" but makes reaching your crush depth, all that much more deadly. The hard part is finding the right variable that makes you go, "OH CRAP!" and makes you fearful of reaching your acutal crush depth (in theory you should NEVER know), while still making it somewhat recoverable - thats the trick. However, i say that with one cavet, while recoverable, it should probably mean end of patrol, so the H.I loss should be substantial given the levatiy with increased depth sans hp loss to begin with.


As an aside, i beleive i made all boats types variable in their crash depth when compared to one another. Unfortunatly the way the game is, a 100% gato will have the exact same crash depth regardless. Crash depth does very on H.I loss. The mroe you lose, the shallower your crush depth becomes. At 40% H.I, you probably couldnt dive past 100-160 feet (im guessing)

[Fincuan]

The crush depth the manufacturer states isn't the maximum before your sub implodes. They only recommend going that deep "safely".

Test depth is the depth the manufacturer guarantees the boat will handle and also the peace time limit, while crush depth is the calculated depth where the boat should implode.

edit: Too SLOOOOOW

[Ducimus]

In regards to crash speed, there is one small little thing when comparing it to real life.

Those who did find their acutal crush depth, never lived to tell say what it is. This point i think, boils down to one of those reality vs gameplay things.

[Hylander_1314]

Saftey depth is the yard specification. Its annotated with the red line at 250, 300, and 400 ft depending on boat. When you hit the D key (dive planes set to normal dive), it brings you to this depth. This depth does no exist in the submarines data files except for the CFG file, and is totally independant of the acutal crush depth.


Crush depth is the implosion point (in the game files its listed as crash depth). Sources vary on this. Some will cite saftey depth * 1.4, others will cite "double the saftey depth".

Crash speed is how fast your sub loses hitpoints once the crash depth has been obtained. Set this low enough, and regardless of acutal crush (crash) depth, your sub can go fairly deep for limited amounts of time. (the problem i have with this is its very easily abused and reaching a depth of say 800 feet in a Porpoise is ludicrious, regardless if the hull is losing HP's or not) Increasing this variable removes this "ability" but makes reaching your crush depth, all that much more deadly. The hard part is finding the right variable that makes you go, "OH CRAP!" and makes you fearful of reaching your acutal crush depth (in theory you should NEVER know), while still making it somewhat recoverable - thats the trick. However, i say that with one cavet, while recoverable, it should probably mean end of patrol, so the H.I loss should be substantial given the levatiy with increased depth sans hp loss to begin with.


As an aside, i beleive i made all boats types variable in their crash depth when compared to one another. Unfortunatly the way the game is, a 100% gato will have the exact same crash depth regardless. Crash depth does very on H.I loss. The mroe you lose, the shallower your crush depth becomes. At 40% H.I, you probably couldnt dive past 100-160 feet (im guessing)

Ok, I see your point. It is goofey to have the shallower boats dive to incredible depths. Can the H.I. points be varied for the different classes of boats, or does the game use the same file reguardless of what boat you have at the time? If there's a way to keep a faster timing on the older boat classes, and slow it a bit for the newer, better, stronger, class of boats.

Sorry, I'm not to up on the game files yet, to mess around with them, so if I'm off on anything, my apologies. Unless a config file could set up for the individual boats, that could be added with the Jonesoft Tool. So if you get offered a newer boat, you would have to update the game with a new config file, that would have the appropriate info for the class of boat you receive.

Just a suggestion is all. Similar to how the old Red Baron 3D Western Front Patch worked with swapping planes and ace pilots in and out of the game.

[Observer]

>>keeping in mind that crash speed impacts other areas as well.


Such as? Contrary to popular belief, i don't know everything :88)
Me neither. Contrary to popular belief. :rotfl:

Crash depth also affects the rate of HP removal during collisions and groundings.

[Observer]

Crash depth does very on H.I loss. The mroe you lose, the shallower your crush depth becomes. At 40% H.I, you probably couldnt dive past 100-160 feet (im guessing)
At 40% HI you would only be able to dive to 60% of crush depth. This of course depends on the established crush depth.

[trebby]

Ducimus,

I remember a mod/little program by Timetraveller for SH3 which allowed the user:

1. To choose crash depth within a "reasonable limits" band.
for instance, a type VII boat player choose between 240-280 meters.
Choose 270 meter and the program would leave about plus or minus 15 meters as actual crash value.

2. Every time a career was started a random value was copied into the game (donno where) based on the players perception of realism/fun so the kaleun never new the value (unless starting the program)

I personally believe that increasing the crash values is justified, however with a sudden death at an unknown depth value. After all finding out actual crash depth kills you...
This because I too believe that first hand accounts are nearerthe truth than theoretical calculated crash depths.

The Timetraveller mod was IMHO the best tool to eliminate the endless discussion
(albeit a very interesting one) and provide sudden, unknown implosion at depths still beyond the calculated crush depth (not safe depth)´as in eyewitness accounts...

Any possibilities on that?

Cheers, Trebb;)

[Torpex752]

Its been over 20 years since the sub I was on went past test depth. I'll never forget what depth we hit, why, or what that depth gage looked like. I'll never forget the casualty that caused it either.
I have a lousey memory, certain life shaking events are rarely forgotten.

I say they were good accounts, I'd believe them. IMHO the problem is now everyone will know so it like the "cats out of the bag", lol. I'd change them, make em variable, and not tell anyone what the settings are. That way it would not be a routine thing to just go deep and ride out the depth charges. Keep crush depth a thing to fear and not know where it is.

Frank

[Sailor Steve]

I voted yes, make it deeper, but with total agreement on the above posts. TimeTraveller's Crush Depth Randomizer was one of my favorite SH3 toys. I don't use it anymore, because JSCones has put a similar function into SH3 Commander. Something similar is needed for SH4, both because the subs need to be able to dive as deep as they really could, and because the player needs to be aware that he can go much deeper, but unaware as to how deep that really is.

Deepen and randomize, I always say. Well, not always. Well, hardly ever, but it sounds good in this case.

[Hylander_1314]

Ducimus,

I remember a mod/little program by Timetraveller for SH3 which allowed the user:

1. To choose crash depth within a "reasonable limits" band.
for instance, a type VII boat player choose between 240-280 meters.
Choose 270 meter and the program would leave about plus or minus 15 meters as actual crash value.

2. Every time a career was started a random value was copied into the game (donno where) based on the players perception of realism/fun so the kaleun never new the value (unless starting the program)

I personally believe that increasing the crash values is justified, however with a sudden death at an unknown depth value. After all finding out actual crash depth kills you...
This because I too believe that first hand accounts are nearerthe truth than theoretical calculated crash depths.

The Timetraveller mod was IMHO the best tool to eliminate the endless discussion
(albeit a very interesting one) and provide sudden, unknown implosion at depths still beyond the calculated crush depth (not safe depth)´as in eyewitness accounts...

Any possibilities on that?

Cheers, Trebb;)

Yep, that was a good one, especially the not knowing exactly at what depth it would all be over at. It definitely added to the "sweat" factor. Hearing the hull really creaking and groaning, and wondering if the escorts were fooled by these manueavers.

[Ducimus]

Can the H.I. points be varied for the different classes of boats, or does the game use the same file reguardless of what boat you have at the time? If there's a way to keep a faster timing on the older boat classes, and slow it a bit for the newer, better, stronger, class of boats.

With the exception of the Tambor and Gar class (which share the same files), all boats have their own files that dictate these settings. So you can, very easily make an older boat crush faster then a newer one. Not all boats have to crush at the same rate.


I remember a mod/little program by Timetraveller for SH3 which allowed the user:

1. To choose crash depth within a "reasonable limits" band.
for instance, a type VII boat player choose between 240-280 meters.
Choose 270 meter and the program would leave about plus or minus 15 meters as actual crash value.

2. Every time a career was started a random value was copied into the game (donno where) based on the players perception of realism/fun so the kaleun never new the value (unless starting the program)


Yeah i remember that program (3rd party application and not really a mod), it was released sometime before TT's Tweaker if i recall correctly. I used to use it a bunch. Trouble is, if i remember it correctly, its hardcoded to only work for Sh3. As this program expects to find specific files, in specific locations, and edit specific hex addresses - none of which exist in SH4. So im going to hazard a guess in saying that it will not work.


IMHO the problem is now everyone will know so it like the "cats out of the bag", lol. I'd change them, make em variable, and not tell anyone what the settings are.

Ive already done just that, just not to such a higher of a degree in crush depth as proposed by this thread. Awhile ago i came up with this systematic formula to vary the crush depth of subs in TM. Can i tell you what i did? Nope, not even if i wanted to. I deleted my notes on it so even i woudlnt remember. Knowing your acutal crush depth really takes the suspense out of the game. Needless to say, while i never keep any secrets or withhold information on what's what in whatever i mod or why i did what i did, actual crush depth i use is the ONE thing that i keep to myself.

[aanker]

I voted yes. In SH1 - SHCE crush depth was randomized based on hearing the voice "We're too deep Sir" then "x" number of feet deeper (depending on the boat class of course) the boat would crush. One of our guys made a chart and let the cat out of the bag a few years ago but nevertheless I still find going deep for ASW a nerve wracking experience.

Crush depth certainly should be deeper than it is to be realistic IMO.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Ducimus]

Well so far, its looking like the "ayes" have it.

I should say though that once i start working on this, given the reminder from observer, that you might not be able to bottom the boat for any resonable length of time. Not that it reall helps in the game to begin with. Although hovering about a 1 feet off the "sand" has the same visual effect.

And remembering that those who acutally found there crush depth were enver able to tell anyone what it was, it is my intention to make reaching crush depth, a major "OH MY GOD WHERE GONNA DIE!!!! BLOW ALL TANKS, BLOW EVERYTHING!!!" kind of moment. The only thing i am fuzzy on, is if i should make it a patrol ender, or a career ender. :hmm:

edit: come to think of it, either way its a career ender. If your that deep, your under ASW attack, if your forced to surface after that sort of crushing, your dead anyway. So i guess the real question is, does the career end while submerged, or while being shelled and rammed from a jap tin can? :hmm: At night time you MIGHT have a chance to escape on the surface, but certaintly not during the day.

[Hylander_1314]

edit: come to think of it, either way its a career ender. If your that deep, your under ASW attack, if your forced to surface after that sort of crushing, your dead anyway. So i guess the real question is, does the career end while submerged, or while being shelled and rammed from a jap tin can? :hmm: At night time you MIGHT have a chance to escape on the surface, but certaintly not during the day.

As long as the chaplan is passin' out the medicinal spirits, it sounds like a good idea.:arrgh!:

[aanker]

Yup, if you crush, It's pretty much instantaneous and that's all she wrote. The screen of death should appear shortly thereafter.

On that note....... Happy Hunting!

Art

[Mav87th]

I cant rememer the exact wording or depths, but in his book about his exploits in the USS TANG Richard O'Kane writes, that USS TANG (a Balao class sub) had a test depth of 438 ft in "Clear the bridge", and takes her during shakedown deep to over 600 ft. The depth gauge in his sub goes to 600, and 3/4th of an inch beyond that is the pin where the needle rests against. He later does it again during combat. I think to belive that one of the other 6 survivors from the circle runner torpedo told O'Kane, that in the forward torpedo room they had a guage that showed the water presure outside (to presurise the tubes manualy) and that the water pressure had shown them to be at XXX ft. at the time they had the problem durring combat.

I have lent my book out and i can't remember the exact number O'Kane writes in it. Could someone with the book look it up?

[Nisgeis]

I have lent my book out and i can't remember the exact number O'Kane writes in it. Could someone with the book look it up?

"Our conversations ranged from boyhood to shipboard just to keep our thoughts from our stomachs, and now having shared tasks we had never dreamed of, the barriers our differing ranks had imposed were steadily dropping away. I doubt that any skipper has ever learned more about his ship from the viewpoint of the troops than I did. The first disclosure, sort of a trial ballon, was the true depth reached while Tang was being hounded by the destroyer west of Saipan. In the pump room a sea-pressure gauge had actually passed 350 pounds per square inch, or 700 feet, before steadying, but the few who knew this decided to keep the information to themselves, and I believe they excerised good judgement."

[denis_469]

I think that not need use, so in all navyes submarines have sich facts. In soviet navy (for example) submarines Shch class have record diving 115 meters. Soviet submarine L-20 have damage and ran aground in depth 110 meters and have 2 flooding compartments and can surfacing after it!