On manual targetting how do I compute target speed?

[Castout]

I'm wondering that now I give the u-boat mission/SH4 1.5 a try well the damn button to calculate the target speed is still broken.

How do you play with manual solution?

I love SH3. I even play SH3 with modded TDC so I use mechanical computer dials to make my solution.

SH4 even if the measuring speed was not broken it would still feel arcadish. I gave up on SH4 after the first 2 patches or was that three? Now even with v1.5 it's still proving itself not a worthy successor to SH3.

[akdavis]

Simplest way in my opinion (short of guessing), is to range and mark the target on the map, wait 6 minutes and range and mark the target again. Measure the distance between the two marks (in nautical miles) and multiply by 10. You now have the target's speed in knots. This is made even simpler with the addition of target icons and/or a nomograph.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

Another way to measure it is to set your periscope just infront of the ship (this method works best when you are as close to perpendicular as possible with the targets path) Get out the chronometer and when the bow of the ship hits the vertical line in the periscope start the chronometer. DONT MOVE THE PERISCOPE!!! when the Stern of the ship hits the vertical line stop the chronometer. Get out the paper manual that came with the game. Now divide that length by the time and multiply by two. This gives you a pretty good guestimate of the speed (in knots) I always round up to the nearest half a knot to compensate for any errors and angle issues that come up when you are not perfectly perpendicular to the target when measuring. So far so good! It's more accurate than the guess speed button for the US TDC. Havent tried to work out manual targeting on the U-boats yet, been playing around with my Pocket BB too much :)

:|\\

[akdavis]

Another way to measure it is to set your periscope just infront of the ship (this method works best when you are as close to perpendicular as possible with the targets path) Get out the chronometer and when the bow of the ship hits the vertical line in the periscope start the chronometer. DONT MOVE THE PERISCOPE!!! when the Stern of the ship hits the vertical line stop the chronometer. Get out the paper manual that came with the game. Now divide that length by the time and multiply by two. This gives you a pretty good guestimate of the speed (in knots) I always round up to the nearest half a knot to compensate for any errors and angle issues that come up when you are not perfectly perpendicular to the target when measuring. So far so good! It's more accurate than the guess speed button for the US TDC. Havent tried to work out manual targeting on the U-boats yet, been playing around with my Pocket BB too much :)

:|\\

Yes, but this only works for AOBs near 90, correct?

[UrPeaceKeeper]

I've had it work out to as far as 45 degrees AOB. I always took two measurments anyways. The first set was when it was far out there to get the correct ships heading and distance and a rough speed (so I could compensate my attacks so I got a near perfect 90 degree AOB) The second is when the target is much closer and is generally about 30 seconds before I launch torpedo's and that is to make sure everything is honed in perfect so that I'm gaurnteed a hit. So I guess yes you could say it works best at 90 degrees AOB but it's close enough. I havent missed very many ships since using that instead of the Crew determined speed (which I find to be off)

Your method is certainly more practical but 6 minutes is a long time to wait to get a targets speed!

:|\\

[Squid95]

Another way to measure it is to set your periscope just infront of the ship (this method works best when you are as close to perpendicular as possible with the targets path) Get out the chronometer and when the bow of the ship hits the vertical line in the periscope start the chronometer. DONT MOVE THE PERISCOPE!!! when the Stern of the ship hits the vertical line stop the chronometer. Get out the paper manual that came with the game. Now divide that length by the time and multiply by two. This gives you a pretty good guestimate of the speed (in knots) I always round up to the nearest half a knot to compensate for any errors and angle issues that come up when you are not perfectly perpendicular to the target when measuring. So far so good! It's more accurate than the guess speed button for the US TDC. Havent tried to work out manual targeting on the U-boats yet, been playing around with my Pocket BB too much :)

:|\\

Yes, but this only works for AOBs near 90, correct?

Any object of known length will traverse a point in space at the same time no matter the observed angle. If the AOB is zero there will be no observable speed across the fixed point ie Perscope crosshairs or periscope edge, but with any measurable AOB the target motion across the point of reference will be visible therefore measurable. Just remember that own ships speed can offset fixed point of reference speed estimate.

If you are behind, unless you can end round your screwed anyway, if your in front and AOB is zero, you may have a shot and of course you should open up the angle for an ideal solution.

Any good skipper will use many methods to get good solution data, nomogragh, fixed reference, plotting and measuring time, distance. I personally use the built in speed estimate with good results. Just remember that the greater the range to contact the greater the error. Get as many estimates as possible and average them out.

There are many posts on this topic, just not in the mod forum.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

One thing to note though is that if you are moving this can throw off the results if you are not at a 90AOB. I always go to full stop before an attack anyways (I'm an ideal Sub captain :D) That is, if I'm attacking a moving target. Most of my sinkings are from sneaking into big ports like Singapore, Bankok, etc and sinking the merchants there. I find more pleasure in sneaking past DD guards to the goods and sometimes the tonnage is amazing!.

[Castout]

Thanks everybody I've downloaded a pdf guide on manual TDC.

I just wish that there's mechanical dials mod like one available to SH3. I prefer rotating dials with the mouse than punching in the calculator:). Measuring through map contact update looks tempting LOL.

And I miss the ability to call on(point and click) my officers/crews to give them orders.

I know I'm I should not be whiner. Thanks guys.

[joegrundman]

you talking about the U-jagd tools AOB finder, as found in the U-jagd and OLC mods? Mikhayl ahs converted it to SH4UBM - you can get the link to it in the UBM mods thread

joe

[Castout]

you talking about the U-jagd tools AOB finder, as found in the U-jagd and OLC mods? Mikhayl ahs converted it to SH4UBM - you can get the link to it in the UBM mods thread

joe
OMG thank you. Do I still nedd Krupps' fixed mast height for version 1.5?

I'm using OLC's actually but they are actually very very similar

[Castout]

you talking about the U-jagd tools AOB finder, as found in the U-jagd and OLC mods? Mikhayl ahs converted it to SH4UBM - you can get the link to it in the UBM mods thread

joe

It's for 1024x768 unfortunately. I'm playing at 1440x900 which is a wide screen resolution.

[joegrundman]

you talking about the U-jagd tools AOB finder, as found in the U-jagd and OLC mods? Mikhayl ahs converted it to SH4UBM - you can get the link to it in the UBM mods thread

joe
OMG thank you. Do I still nedd Krupps' fixed mast height for version 1.5?

I'm using OLC's actually but they are actually very very similar

i think it works fine as it is in SH4

and i know the U-jagd and OLC aob finders are very, very similiar - they are the same! OLC incorporates U-jagd as it says on post one of his thread. OLC just altered the colours using hue adjustment in Gimp to suit his taste, and has spent more time developing his lens reticule.

too bad about the resolution. I don't know how hard it is to adjust that - maybe you can do it? is it not just a matter of resizing? Why don't you try it and post a screenshot of how it looks and maybe someone can tell you how to adjust it.

joe

[claybirdd]

dont know why noone has suggested it yet, but if you have radar installed you can make a mark of targets exact location. Start the stopwatch, make another mark 3 minuites later and measure the distance, drop the last two decimal places and walla you have target speed. ie. distance travled 900yds=9 kts. this works for me quite flawlessly.:up:

[joegrundman]

In which case you need to have map contact updates on, and all that that entails, and not fear enemy radar warning equipment - which is fine for when you are facing the Japanese, but the Brits and Americans are altogether different in this regards

[jmr]

If you don't want to use map contacts, you could always take a snap shot of your radar screen and dump the screenshot into aaronblood's mobo and plot your contacts accordingly. It's what I do now until we can get a useful radar with a range readout gauge.

[Rockin Robbins]

In which case you need to have map contact updates on, and all that that entails, and not fear enemy radar warning equipment - which is fine for when you are facing the Japanese, but the Brits and Americans are altogether different in this regards
That is why I run Trigger Maru. With map contacts on you don't get excessive information that a captain wouldn't have. You get what a plotting team would provide: no silhouettes, no velocity vectors, no target id or even type, no friend or foe. If you can't see it in your periscope or radar, it isn't there. It vanishes when you turn radar off or lower periscope. I think it is more realistic than leaving contacts off because it reasonably simulates part of what a plotting team would do for a captain. You still have to plot to determine target course, speed and possible zig pattern, something no captain would EVER have to do. But if the machine did that, where is the possible human error?

Human error is part of good simulation. Keeping that engaged while making tasks appropriat to the point of view of the game (that of a sub captain) is very difficult and cannot be done perfectly. For me, TMO is the best compromise, with map updates on.

Also, many Japanese after 1943 had radar and radar detection. You are just as likely to be discovered by the Japanese as by the Brits and Yanks. However, this brings up a philosophical question. If you are afraid the enemy might see you, do you blind yourself? The American answer in the Pacific was no. Throughout his attack on Shinano, and in spite of the fact that he knew the Japanese could detect his radar, Joe Enright left Archerfish's radar on. He would rather have the information, even if the Japanese could see too. He bagged his target. Americans are strange. We are unpredictable and sometimes ignore "obvious" rules. Sometimes we reap the whirlwind and sometimes we bag the Shinano. Just compare Patton and Monty. I want Patton up there when the chips are down.

[vanjast]

This
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=136606
.. will help you remain undetected until the last minute
:)

There's a WW2 movie clip somewhere of a UBoat sonar operator counting revs with a stopwatch in his hand - so the method was used

[Rockin Robbins]

I would be very careful about making conclusions about reality from watching a movie. Deriving speed from rev counts demands knowledge of that specific ship, something not available to WWII navies. The most they could tell was whether they were speeding up or slowing down, moving away or toward. Any speed info would be a rough guess, unless working with one of your own ships that had been extensively researched.

[Fincuan]

Here's what US Navy's Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm)(Chapter 8) from 1952 says on the subject of speed determination. Even though the manual is post WW2 I doubt the methods were much different during the war.


804. SPEED DETERMINATION:

(a) The Fire Control Party must utilize every means at their disposal to determine target speed. The following means are available: (1) TDC This method is described in OP1442A.
(2) PLOT This method is described in detail in Chapter 5.
(3) TURN COUNT The Approach Officer should have available for ready reference the most complete set of curves that he can obtain of different types and classes of enemy vessels. Their use will furnish a means of approximating the speed of an observed target.


8-4CONFIDENTIAL SLM 1
Due consideration must, of course, be given to wind and sea conditions and condition of loading as they increase or decrease the speed of any given R.P.M. Turn count is most valuable in determining a sudden change of target speed.
(4) Type of Vessel Knowledge of maximum and cruising speeds of various types of ships is of some aid.
(5) Intelligence Any previous information furnished from other sources will be of assistance in determining speed.


(b) Although five methods of determining speed have been given above, it still remains that under almost all circumstances Plot and TDC are the two primary methods which the submarine must employ to obtain target speed. In both of these methods any error in underwater log speed will introduce a corresponding error in solution of target speed

[Rockin Robbins]

Here's what US Navy's Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm)(Chapter 8) from 1952 says on the subject of speed determination. Even though the manual is post WW2 I doubt the methods were much different during the war.


804. SPEED DETERMINATION:

(a) The Fire Control Party must utilize every means at their disposal to determine target speed. The following means are available: (1) TDC This method is described in OP1442A.
(2) PLOT This method is described in detail in Chapter 5.
(3) TURN COUNT The Approach Officer should have available for ready reference the most complete set of curves that he can obtain of different types and classes of enemy vessels. Their use will furnish a means of approximating the speed of an observed target.


8-4CONFIDENTIAL SLM 1
Due consideration must, of course, be given to wind and sea conditions and condition of loading as they increase or decrease the speed of any given R.P.M. Turn count is most valuable in determining a sudden change of target speed.
(4) Type of Vessel Knowledge of maximum and cruising speeds of various types of ships is of some aid.
(5) Intelligence Any previous information furnished from other sources will be of assistance in determining speed.


(b) Although five methods of determining speed have been given above, it still remains that under almost all circumstances Plot and TDC are the two primary methods which the submarine must employ to obtain target speed. In both of these methods any error in underwater log speed will introduce a corresponding error in solution of target speed

Yeah, what I said! Turn count next to useless because there WERE no turn count curves and data for Japanese ships. Consult tater for confirmation.

In exercises conducted in 1952, the targets would have been friendly ships, about which almost unlimited information, including precise tpm/speed curves, would be available.

[joegrundman]

AFAIK the british were the only ones to make a big feature of this, and this they could do because most of the world's merchant marine engines were built in britain

[vanjast]

If you google "WW2 ship propulsion" you get a lot of info on the engines, boilers in use at the time. There were only a few main types of which most were Allied in origin.... The info is available on worldwide shipping. :know:

[Castout]

I'm gonna try using the calculator first. Without pausing that is.

I better start digging that sicentific calculator of mine. More exact than the sinus ruler.

Meanwhile I try to send OLC a hypnotic tape telling him to re-do his mod for SH4 in 1440x900 resolution. Subliminal slavery LOL

I don't think it's simple matter of resizing the image as a widescreen has a different aspect ratio alltogether.

As for using hydrophone to plot the target solution well actually as far as I remember the US sub force did that sometimes during WWII as written in Red Scorpion like during bad weather condition.

[vanjast]

Minor adjustments at the original link.. :)

[Castout]

I've realised that there's no ship length data available in the ship recognition manual. Oh shame now I remember why I hated SH4 :dead:.

[Pisces]

If I may add a comment on speed measurements using the periscope centerline. A near-90 AOB view is not a neccessity for it, it's just that it's impossible (structures on the ship hide the exact stern or bow from view) or almost useless (as someone allready explained on the first page, movement is hardly noticable appart from the bow-wave) with a near head/tail AOB view. Best accuracy is attained when the target shows 90 AOB, but anything between 30 and 150 degrees should work well I think. The most important consideration is is that you DO NOT move sideways with respect to the periscope-centerline. Or you will add some of your speed to his speed and mess up the measurement. That means being at an absolute dead-stop when looking at anything other than 0/180 relative bearing, OR you can keep moving (even fast) but the scope needs to be exact at 0 or 180 degrees relative bearing (so the periscope is in lead of the target before it passes your periscope/bow/aft-centerline). So the trick is to turn putting your bow or stern just enough ahead of the target. And make sure you have stopped turning before you start the stopwatch.

As for calculation tools the following thread may be a solution for not having OLC's mod for Sh4. Just make yourself a DIY-slideruler based on historically accurate tools. Unfortunatly the rapidshare link is dead. But there are other threads about this topic that should have newer links. Just do a search for 'sliderule' in the Sh3/4 forums. PM me if you need me to send it. Caveat: the (back)part of the american slideruler that you would need to calculate speed was not part of it. It is based on a german slideruler. But I'm sure the tracking party had some slideruler things in case of TDC failure.

As a start:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=707496&postcount=131

[Snaptrap]

Is there a video tutorial that explains the steps to manual targeting? I'd like to break away from the auto.

[Fincuan]

Is there a video tutorial that explains the steps to manual targeting? I'd like to break away from the auto.


Several. Check the stickies at the SH4 forum here. I recommend watching especially WernerSobe's videos to learn the basics of the TDC(and sonar-only attack, but that's a bit more advanced even if not very hard), and I believe Rockin Robbins made a video on the "Dick O'Kane"-method. The more different "methods" you master, the better :up:

[Snaptrap]

Several. Check the stickies at the SH4 forum here. I recommend watching especially WernerSobe's videos to learn the basics of the TDC(and sonar-only attack, but that's a bit more advanced even if not very hard), and I believe Rockin Robbins made a video on the "Dick O'Kane"-method. The more different "methods" you master, the better :up:

Thanks! I find the German doctrine so much easier to learn than the American. I'll use that as a step towards learning the American system.

[XLjedi]

Has anyone ever validated that the prop noise wav file in SH4 (or SH3) is actually usable for determining speed via turn count? ...or was that part of a mod I don't have (like TM).