Dealing with the zig zag.

[surf_ten]

Hello fellow Kaleuns,

I have a quick question concerning ships that start to zig zag. Nothing is more annoying to me that those small/coastal merchant ships that don't sink after eating a torpedo. They start that zig zag defense and when they do my follow up shots will always miss by a couple of meters.

One thing I have observed is they get this hyper sense of awareness of my sub. Despite being submerge around 18 meters down and with my periscope retracted the merchants always seem to have turn their stern always towards me. I have confirmed this behavior using the external view. Makes it really difficult trying to place my sub in a path that is somewhat perpendicular to their position. The only thing I can guess is they have hydophones and can hear me maneuvering my sub.

Any veteran Kaleuns have a strategy or advice to sink those pesky zig zagers, without using the deck gun? I gave up trying to sink a small merchant last night after wasting 4 torpedoes in the attempt, such a waste potential firepower on such a small amount of tonnage. My current sub does not have a deck gun ( it's mid 43 and every Merchant is armed ).

[predavolk]

1- I too have noticed their tendency to steer away from you. I can only surmise that they're steering away from the datum point from whence you fired the torpedo. They will most certainly maneuver their boat to get the best cannon fire on you, which I always find odd (dueling with a U-Boat doesn't seem that healthy of an idea).

2- You can sink them on the surface if you bring your boat up in a spot they can't reach with their guns. That's usually directly in front and/or directly in back of their boat. They can't shoot through their own ship!

3- When ships start to zig, it's really hard to nail them. Especially smaller, fast-moving ships. Your best bet at hitting them (IMO) is to slightly anticipate their turn by overestimating the AoB towards the direction they're turning.

4- Finally, don't waste 4 torpedoes on these boats. I did that a couple of times before giving up. I would suggest that you instead back off, let them calm down (they do often stop their zig-zagging with time), then put another torpedo into them! If you can't do that, you're wasting your torps. Follow them and hope that they sink with time.

5- Really finally, bow shots tend to be the best at sinking ships. Rare other shots may have more destructive impacts, but hitting the bow is perhaps the best way to sink a ship. Try aiming for it if you can, and maybe you can avoid the need for a second torp altogether!

[Hanomag]

1st.. Welcome Aboard Herr Kaluen!! :arrgh!:

If I have a wounded merchant usually I hit F5 and follow him around on the map til I can line up a perfect shot.

I dont really see the need to have your periscope retracted when dealing with a crippled merchant. If for some reason they fire upon you submerged just lower your periscope in small incriments 'til they lose sight of you. Or drop it all together and just pop it up again after a little while.

As a rule, I don't waste my eels on anything less than 5k tons. Not very realistic I'm sure but I'd rather sink an Ore Carrier than a Tramp Steamer any day. Not to mention, If I hit a larger merhcant with 2 eels he is apt to not linger as long as a smaller ship with but one hit. At least IMHO.

Hope this helps a little bit. You will find that each Kaluen here has there own skew on game play but in the end our goals are all the same.

GOOD LUCK HERR KALUEN!! :up:

[Brag]

I seldom mess with the little ones. Welcome aboard, Surf Ten. :D

[Keelbuster]

When they start to zig, they slow down from their initial speed by about half a knot. Adjust your firing solution accordingly, and go for magnetic keel shots so you don't have to worry about deflection off their hulls.

[surf_ten]

Thank you for the warm welcome!

I haven't played with the acoustic torpedoes but I would imagine they might be the solution, especially for the stern attacks. I tend to agree with most that the small merchants are not cost effective to justify the ordnance. I kick myself for not getting a deck gun.

Would a historical Kaleun risk their subs hull integrity and get into a firefight duel with an armed merchant?

[Murr44]

Thank you for the warm welcome!

I haven't played with the acoustic torpedoes but I would imagine they might be the solution, especially for the stern attacks. I tend to agree with most that the small merchants are not cost effective to justify the ordnance. I kick myself for not getting a deck gun.

Would a historical Kaleun risk their subs hull integrity and get into a firefight duel with an armed merchant?

A particularly reckless one might. Then again, he'd probably soon lose the confidence of his crew & might be relieved of command when he returned to port.

If you have GWX 2.1 installed then I wouldn't risk a duel; chances are that you're going to come off very badly. The enemy AI gunner's accuracy has been vastly improved over stock. When I played stock I found that I could comfortably approach to within 1500-1600 metres of an armed merchant with little danger of being hit. It seemed like they were just firing blindly. With GWX the enemy AI gunners seem to be able to rapidly zero in on my boat.

Welcome aboard btw...:)

[predavolk]

Thank you for the warm welcome!

I haven't played with the acoustic torpedoes but I would imagine they might be the solution, especially for the stern attacks. I tend to agree with most that the small merchants are not cost effective to justify the ordnance. I kick myself for not getting a deck gun.

Would a historical Kaleun risk their subs hull integrity and get into a firefight duel with an armed merchant?

They would almost certainly consider themselves lucky and fire a spread of torpedoes at the "little" boat! Read the radio messages you're getting (as annoying as they are!). The majority of boats sunk were well under 10K IIRC. The most grossly unrealistic aspect of SH3, with or without GWX, is the abundance of targets. Most captains counted themselves blessed if they ran into 5 or more good targets in a cruise. 10+ was truly exceptional! For us, as sim players, it's easy to take the luxury of "trophy hunting" the big ships. If you want to, go for it. I'd recommend other non-realistic options like harbor raiding too. Big warships give more reknown than big merchants any how. Personally, I shoot whatever I can find, although I do let smaller boats go if the conditions are poor, and I certainly target bigger ships in a convoy (which is realistic).

Historically, U-Boat captains varied widely in their use of deck guns, with most opting not to use them. Those that did use their guns (and this goes for British subs too, in the Med and Pacific) seemed to have more success than those that didn't. The merchants in GWX are MUCH too accurate, but I suspect that's a way of discouraging the unrealistic practice of deck gunning tons of targets. Besides being difficult to hit with the deck gun on a WW2 sub, it's also bloody uncomfortable for the crew in anything other than the best conditions when operating in the cold waters of the Atlantic (and even dangerous in moderate seas).

If you want a zero-risk engagement, make sure you put the merchant's boat between you and their gun, like I mentioned. Otherwise they will shoot you up pretty good. For the bigger ships with bigger guns (some 10mm!), that can hurt you pretty quickly! Post-1940, I do all of my gun kills from long distance or from a safe location vs. wounded ships. I might be tempted to duel it out if it was a big ship (easier to hit) and I was heading home. But the biggest danger isn't being sunk, that's pretty unlikely with a good U-boat crew. It's losing your ability to dive deep if you're ever attacked by destroyers. THAT can be deadly! :o

[Elmer Kosterman]

Good post, Predavolk.

Weaving targets seem to follow their original course, generally. If you can get close and to a 90° angle to that course, a reasonably good solution will usually score a hit. Chasing a weaving target and firing at her stern, on the other hand, is not very promising. In my very limited experience, targets taking evasive action seem to alternate: 3 minutes left hard rudder, 3 minutes right hard rudder. If this pattern holds true, you can time your shot and score a hit, even from farther away.

[surf_ten]

Thank you Kaleuns for your insightful responses. I think the next time I encounter this problem I am going back away from the wounded ship and proceed to a new intercept point. Either that or I am going to accept a two torpedo per ship policy for all the small ships encounters and avoid the problem altogether.

Thanks again for the helpful tips and the historical/realistic perspective!

[Tombow]

I'm pretty new to SHIII (still fiddling around with the torpedo school) but I noticed the zig-zagging too. At least in the torpedo school it makes sense - once ships start to blow up, every captain in the vicinity will do better to zigzag instead of keeping his general course.

My way of dealing with it:
1. If you can afford, stalk the ship and figure its general course.
2. Speed ahead on parallel course so you can line up for a shot. Keep in distance.
3. At certain points of the zigzag, the ship will show you his whole side. Takes some guessing to anticipate.
4. When the ship starts a zigzag towards you, turn into position (ideal position will be perpendicular and slightly abeam)
5. Use magnetic pistols (be sure to check depth) and aim for the bow at the beginning of the zigzag (or slightly in front of the bow)
6. Press "Fire".
7. When you hear the sound of a ship hull breaking up, you' ve been right.

[Blacklight]

I'd say that the reason they turn their tail toward you and start going the other way is that they can tell the direction the torpedoes came from. Therefore, I'd go the other way too while at the same time trying to narrow my angle of bow to that direction (This is a technique that I use in Dangerous Waters quite a bit).

It isn't hyper awareness of where you are. It's just common sense. If a torpedo hits you on the right hand side and came in on you from a couple degrees on that side, you obviously know the relative direction of the submarine.