dissappointed there is no japanese campaign

[Webster]

sh4 should be about us vs ijn yet it seems there is only german additions when sh4 should only be about japan and not germany.

sh3 was the german campaign and now that we are in the japan campaign then shouldnt that be the best place to go with future mods and patches?

dont get me wrong, i like the u-boat expansion but i just think it would have been better if it contained japanese subs and gave us japanese campaigns to bring you into the war from the japanese side of things? when will i be able to command a japanese sub and fight for the ijn?

[Snaptrap]

sh4 should be about us vs ijn yet it seems there is only german additions when sh4 should only be about japan and not germany.

sh3 was the german campaign and now that we are in the japan campaign then shouldnt that be the best place to go with future mods and patches?

dont get me wrong, i like the u-boat expansion but i just think it would have been better if it contained japanese subs and gave us japanese campaigns to bring you into the war from the japanese side of things? when will i be able to command a japanese sub and fight for the ijn?

Give it time though a Japanse sub is quite laughable and probably not worth the effort.

[Webster]

sh4 should be about us vs ijn yet it seems there is only german additions when sh4 should only be about japan and not germany.

sh3 was the german campaign and now that we are in the japan campaign then shouldnt that be the best place to go with future mods and patches?

dont get me wrong, i like the u-boat expansion but i just think it would have been better if it contained japanese subs and gave us japanese campaigns to bring you into the war from the japanese side of things? when will i be able to command a japanese sub and fight for the ijn?

Give it time though a Japanse sub is quite laughable and probably not worth the effort.

so japan didnt have any subs that caused problems? i dont know anything about japans subs but i thought they had a decent sub fleet being an island nation and all.

[CCIP]

Actually Japan's problems were not technical but rather doctrinal. They simply failed to take their submarine seriously and relegated them to a fleet scout role at which they were utterly inefficient. They were gradually switched more and more to carrying supplies and facilitating suicide missions (like carrying mini-subs, Kaiten torpedoes, or the never-materialized attacks on the Panama canal).

The reason a Japanese campaign would not work well is because to make it fun one would have to make it ahistorical. 99% of Japanese sub operations were utterly pointless and without combat success. There were some exceptions to it, but basically a Japanese campaign in SHIV would basically be fictional, unless you took a torpedo-less supply sub in later war and did nothing but supply runs and troop insertions with it.

That said, while there were technical deficiencies to Japanese subs, which were exacerbated by lack of radar development (compared to Americans) and extremely efficient Allied ASW, on paper their subs were not too bad at all. While Japan squandered much of its resources on white elephant "aircraft carrier" subs, many of its more normal submarine designs were anywhere between tolerably decent and very good. Their torpedoes were superb - faster, longer-ranged and more reliable than any other power's.

[Sailor Steve]

sh4 should be about us vs ijn yet it seems there is only german additions when sh4 should only be about japan and not germany.

sh3 was the german campaign and now that we are in the japan campaign then shouldnt that be the best place to go with future mods and patches?

dont get me wrong, i like the u-boat expansion but i just think it would have been better if it contained japanese subs and gave us japanese campaigns to bring you into the war from the japanese side of things? when will i be able to command a japanese sub and fight for the ijn?
I think a lot of people agree with you, but give it time. There were two reasons I can see why they went with a German add-on this time around. One was that it was easier to work with what they already had from SH3, whereas Japanese boats would have required complete new models plus the hiring of Japanese voice actors to make it work. The second reason was to start the process of bringing the Atlantic U-boat campaign up to SH4 standards, so that both sides already represented would be up-to-date. There could be more, but that's my feeling on it.

Given time and good sales, the future holds no limits. Japanese, British, Dutch - these are all good ideas; not to mention what most of us want to see: DC2!:sunny:

[Snaptrap]

I think a lot of people agree with you, but give it time. There were two reasons I can see why they went with a German add-on this time around. One was that it was easier to work with what they already had from SH3, whereas Japanese boats would have required complete new models plus the hiring of Japanese voice actors to make it work. The second reason was to start the process of bringing the Atlantic U-boat campaign up to SH4 standards, so that both sides already represented would be up-to-date. There could be more, but that's my feeling on it.

Given time and good sales, the future holds no limits. Japanese, British, Dutch - these are all good ideas; not to mention what most of us want to see: DC2!:sunny:

Don't forget another reason is that German U-Boats kick ass too. They're certainly tops when it comes to WWII naval warfare.

[keltos01]

Well before you try and make a japanese campaign, you have to have at the very least a japanese submarine. They had the greatest variety of sub types of all nations, with some quite interresting : for instance the Jyunsen B had a top surface speed of 23,5 kts and 8 submerged, that's not bad at all now is it ?
Well, the sub's well under way, and if you want to you can download the latest version which includes (not for long) a type IX hull but had a real IJN tower. The good thing about the add-on is that it gave us units that are considered friendly by the japs, plus a scout plane, so yes maybe they should've made a couple drivable IJN subs instead of dummies, but hey ! we're getting there ! go see my thread about the Jyunsen B :D

[Takao]

@ WEBSTER,

keltos01 beat me too it but,

Hopefully, those of us who would enjoy playing an I-boat will not have to wait much longer. Keltos01 is working to create a playable Jyunsen B class Japanese submarine. You can follow his work here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134119

He has released what he has done so far. A great looking I-boat conning tower married to a IXD2 hull and converted the German torpedoes to Japanese. At the moment he is working on perfecting the I-boat's hull. This mod will be a real winner when its finished.

For more information on Japanese submarine successes and captains, visit this site:
http://users.bigpond.net.au/ijnsubsite/

For information on the various Japanese sub classes:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/sensuikan.htm

@CCIP,
Most of Japan's leading sub commanders ran from 1-3 supply missions, others didn't even run any, and a few made 5-6 supply runs. So, it would be no worse than the stock SHIV mission generator. That being said, at least an I-boat campaign is grounded in reality, and not the truly fictional U-Boat Add On campaign. As we all know a Type XVIII in the Pacific is just oh so historical.

For all,
Saying that the German submarine was the tops in naval warfare is only a matter of perspective. The German Type VII was roughly equal to the Japanese RO boats in terms of range and capabilities. In the Pacific, it would not have met with success the way it did in the Atlantic. The same is true with the American fleet boats, they would not have been near as successful if the Germans had used them in their convoy battles in the Atlantic. The Type VII and the fleet boats were the right type, at the right time, and in the right place. Both the Germans and Americans faced island nations that imported the bulk of their supplies and raw materials. Once these supplies were cut off, victory could be assured.

The Japanese on the other hand, were opposed by a nation that was self-sufficient. A protracted submarine campaign would not have defeated the United States. Such a campaign would have hindered the US march across the Pacific, but it would not bring about victory. Thus, the Japanese didn't place much emphasis on attacking the US's merchant traffic. Instead, the focused on sinking US warships faster then they could be replaced, which at least offered a slim chance of success. The Japanese met with some early successes; sinking the aircraft carriers USS Yorktown & USS Wasp and damaging the USS Saratoga twice. However, the losses were great on both sides, and the lull between major fleet engagements lasted from late 1942 through mid 1944. This left the Japanese submarines without their "raison d'etre". Given the growing and ever present US air umbrella, the Japanese were forced to turn to their submarines to supply their far flung island bastions. Even though the submarines could come in undetected, they could not provide the level of supply necessary to meet the demands of the troops.

The Japanese submarines, while performing adequately, never did find their niche in World War II.

[andycaccia]

The major flaw japanese subs had in wwii was "tactic". Japan was the only power which choose to use it submarine force against battle groups instead of using them againt convoys. That caused losses and an overall poor eficiency...but it was only the method of employment. Tecnically thei boats were very advanced, and some of them were superlative.
The sen taka type had a submerged top speed of 19 kts, more that the type XXI...it was smaller and with less firepower, only three built in 1945. Nevertheless it was impressive..

The I-400 submarine carrier was, and actually *IS* the largest diesel boat ever made. The "Yamato" of the submarines.

The C type and variants were large boats (more than 100 meters and 3000 tons) with 8 torpedo tubes, long range and heavy guns. Designed by Mitsubishi they are considered one of the most advance sub types of WWII.

[Rockin Robbins]

"They're (German U-Boats) certainly tops when it comes to WWII naval warfare?" American subs were able to evade much better than a Type VII because of greater speed, both surfaced and submerged. Being able to stealthily make three knots is SO much better than 1 knot at silent for the U-Boat! Depth doesn't mean snot when you're a rock that cant move out of the way. That extra several knots on the surface also translates into a tremendously greater ability to evade escorts and find targets.

The American boats' radar is what makes them utterly outclass the antiquated U-Boats. You can only sink targets you find. You can only evade escorts you know are there. American skippers were much better informed and therefore much more effective than their German counterparts.

The American ballast system made the German one look pathetic. With trim tanks, negative and emergency tanks, with a complex control system, there was no "all hands forward" on an American sub. They could take any angle in the water they chose, with much better control than a U-Boat had.

The American conning tower was better with lookouts positioned higher, crew better protected, periscopes permitting a much deeper periscope depth, radar that could be used either submerged or nearly so.

The American boat took enough torpedoes to the battle to win. The German boats, even the vaunted Type IX were woefully deficient in their ability to deliver enough firepower to turn the tide. Two lousy aft torpedo tubes! What weren't they thinking? Six vs four in the bow. That's a tremendous difference in the ability to do harm. Why assume all the risks of getting men in harm's way and lack the ability to do squat to that 30 ship convoy.

Finally, the Germans were lousy at evasion. Time after time healthy U-Boats lost the will to fight and surfaced in the middle of escorts to be sunk by gunfire. It happened so often that it became the basis for Admiral Daniel Gallery's plan to capture a U-Boat, successfully executed with U-505. I can understand the U-Boat captain's decision. They had only 1 knot of silent speed. They couldn't get out of their own way, much less that of a couple of determined escorts.

German command strategy was fatally flawed. They chatted like schoolgirls on open channels with a secret code the Polish codebreakers could read from 1939. Never once did they entertain the idea that their enemy had a brain in their head and could understand their "unbreakable" code. Radar in airplanes was impossible because the Germans couldn't do it. Therefore it didn't exist. Americans and British were continually searching out and learning from their mistakes and refining their techniques. "Here we are, kill us" was the Germans' deployment strategy. Hunter-killer groups were our answer. Germans had no reply but to die.

Ferrari's of the sea! Ridiculous. They were riveted together, a stone-age technique Americans abandoned. The German "effort" consisted in producing thousands of inadequate sacrificial lambs in the hope that before their inevitable death they could sink a few enemy ships. That gambit of sacrificial pawns was destined for failure from the beginning.

The American boats could well have fought the Battle of the Atlantic for the Germans and had better results. The U-Boats could not have bettered the far superior American subs' performance in the Pacific. They lacked the most critical component of all: American ice cream machines.:arrgh!:

[haegemon]

So...!!! A Japan campaign should be based on:

- Attack task forces.
- Support fleets.
- Deliver suplies.

[ryoga_77]

Well i was hoping someone could get around to introducing a japanese campaign so i would get to recreate the moment from the Spielberg movie '1941' where the capt of a jap sub gets to attack a Ferris wheel and an entertainment park and sends back the signal "Successfully attacked Industrial Complex".

It seems this scene was inspired by real life events.

[DeepIron]

"The Japanese Submarine Force and World War II" Boyd and Yoshida
ISBN: 1-55750015-0

http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Submarine-Force-World-War/dp/1557500800

THE book to read regarding Japanese Sub Ops...

[Hartmann]

Very interesting thread

I found that the main difference between American and german/Japanese were the ASW technology and Radar detection. and it was finally decisive.

A gato in the atlantic could perform like a IX-B boat but with the radar it could dive before the planes arrive.

I think in a good experiment in the future... use american boats as germans in the atlantic and see how it performs in the convoy battles with allied ASW .:hmm:

[keltos01]

I know the japanese had some type of radar and/or radar detector (the double horn shaped thingie on the Sen Toku), also the japanese subs were faster and had a longer range (f.i. 35000 naut miles...) and a bigger deck gun : 140 mm and better torpedoes ...
but bad sub doctrine, they should've looked more at what the german uboot from WWI did...

quote from the book thread here above :
'The Japanese submarine force has frequently been misrepresented in Western literature' as a complete failure, write Boyd and Yoshida.
The U.S. Navy had only six fleet carriers in the Pacific in 1942, and Japanese submarines torpedoed three of them (the Saratoga twice) and the threat of Japanese subs had a lot to do with the loss of a fourth carrier, the Lexington.
You could hardly ask for more from a light force against an opponent's capital ships.
But slow subs were not a long-run challenge to fast surface warships, and the Japanese submariners turned increasingly to dead-end types, such as midgets, long-range airplane carriers and supply subs. (It is now suspected, however, that one of the five midget subs sent against Pearl Harbor did manage to get a torpedo into the battleship Oklahoma.)