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Observer
04-29-08, 11:37 PM
This mod started to solve two areas that have bothered for a long time:

*The engine room propulsion model, in particular the damage model for the diesel engines, and
*Crew vulnerability to surface ship gunfire (in particular) while at topside watch stations (e.g. deck gun, AA gun and deck watch).

The current WIP scope addresses the following areas (Note: It's growns a bit :) All changes and testing has been limited to the Gato for this WIP, and are based on TMO + RSRD):

1. Exposed crew are now very vulnerable to both small arms and large caliber naval gunfire. This includes air dropped bombs and depth charges for exposed crew members. The normal method to adjust crew damage has been to adjust the CrewExposure factor for each compartment. For the DG, AA, and Deck Watch this adjustment has the disadvantage of also making the crew in these compartments extremely vulnerable to damage during depth charge attacks. I think I've found a way to mitigate this problem (see the screen shots below).

2. What started as a way to correct the damage model for the diesel engines has turned into a rezone of most of the Gato's compartments and equipment systems. In many cases new zones have or will be added (particularly in the conning tower) that links equipment to a damage zone. The Gato diesels and electric engines have been rezoned and relocated consistent with actual ships drawings. The same will be applied to other equipment to the maximum extent practical. There is still much work to do to add damage zones for the missing equipment, and to adjust the existing equipment zones.

3. While I was not able to ultimately fix the diesel and electric engine propulsion (e.g. four diesel engines and four electric engines all tied to individual zones) due to some quirks with specially coded zones in SH4, I was able to work on the repair time and equipment models so that it provides a reasonable "abstraction" for the actual engine room. This combined with the rezoning effort above should be an improvement. The diesel engines will be hard to "destroy" but they can be damaged, and this damage will affect speed.

On other item addressed in this effort was the "destroyed" "bulkhead" that can somehow be repaired by the crew. This is no longer the case. Destroyed "bulkheads" will now stay destroyed.

For those wondering, as far as I know, it's not possible to operate only the electric motors when surfaced. This seems to be a limitation of the SH4 engine. Also, sadly enough, when the electric motors are destroyed, the boat still has propulsion. This is yet another limitation. Ironically, each port/stbd diesel is tied to the applicable port/stbd propeller. If for example the port diesel is destroyed the port propeller will not turn.

4. Consistent with the items above, I have adjusted the crew configuration by adding an additional compartment and by adding additional crew spaces to the conning tower. This is all based on Ducimus' ideas recently posted in the mod forum. I've just extended the idea and added some of my own.

To do list (This is my punchlist of things to complete and/or evaluate)
1. Complete zoning/rezoning of equipment in particular masts, antennas and other external equipment. [AA and DG Complete]
2. Evaluate methods to limit injury to only crew members actually on watch rather than all crew members in a compartment.
3. Evaluate use of creep engine zones in addition to the current electric engine zones (low priority)
4. Evaluate equipment repair times in two cases: (1) with the damage control team. (2) without the damage control team. The DC team increases repair speed by about 6x. This may require an adjustment to RepairsCoef for the DC compartment.
5. Balance/Re-Balance submarine zone HP and depth charge HP to try and make damage from naval gunfire more significant. Ideally, a boat holed by an AP round should not be able to submerge without flooding. I know there are some code limitations here, but some balancing can minimize the potential for the player to submerge after being holed by gunfire without significant adverse consequences.
6. Balance the model so that the boat would most often be lost by flooding rather than just HP reduction (e.g. 100% hull damage).
7. Evaluate crew injury recovery times.
8. Add additional crew members to the control room and conning tower (3D).
9. Correct other mistaken/inaccurate/confusing equipment labels and add/remove equipment to compartments as needed.
10. Evaluate crew model to ensure maximum compatibility based on screen size.

Here are a few screen shots of the work to date:

Modded crew management screen
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_225243_406.jpg

Modded equipment management screen
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_225252_515.jpg

Damage after test attack. Note diesel damage and speed reduction.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_233452_390.jpg

Crew damage after the above attack. Most damage is just a few scratches. Only the exposed crew are heavily injured.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_233553_406.jpg

Equipment damage after a few repairs. Note the ER pressure hull cannot be repaired.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_234052_453.jpg

Deck watch crew injury after a single 25mm burst
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_235546_250.jpg

Deck watch crew injury after two 25mm bursts. Note the dead crew member.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_235706_937.jpg

Submerged to escape the attacking escort. Note crew moved to new compartments to mitigate further injury to the deck watch crew.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_235823_078.jpg

Damaged equipment after two 25mm bursts. Note this still needs more zone work.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-29_235917_843.jpg

Damage following a DC attack. Note the after TR pressure hull is destroyed and cannot be repaired to stop the flooding. Also note the damage to No. 1 & 3 electric engines has reduced speed at ahead flank. The damage to the electric engine is ~70% meaning that one EE is destroyed (cannot be repaired) and the other is damaged ~10% (can be repaired). This EE will remain damaged at ~60% and cannot be further repaired until the boat returns to port.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-30_003015_718.jpg

Because of the damage to the after torpedo room and the flooding, I'm going to have to speed up to maintain depth control since I cannot repair the pressure hull. If I cannot avoid the escort and battery charge runs low, I may eventually have to surface.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-04-30_004617_093.jpg

LukeFF
04-30-08, 12:27 AM
VERY interesting stuff. For the diesels and motors did you remove these two sections?

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 4]
ID= EqSlotDEPA
NameDisplayable= No 3 Main Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoDEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoDieselEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 5]
ID= EqSlotDESA
NameDisplayable= No 4 Main Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoDEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoDieselEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1
and

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 8]
ID= EqSlotEEPA
NameDisplayable= No 3 Electric Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoEEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoElectricEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 9]
ID= EqSlotEESA
NameDisplayable= No 4 Electric Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoEEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoElectricEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1
If so, I can see what you then did in Equipment.upc to make the units the game sees show up as "Engine 1 & 3" and so forth.

iricund
04-30-08, 06:01 AM
My only slight qualm with the damage/death by 20mm etc armaments is that enemy gun positions will keep firing despite being pummeled themselves. It's nigh on impossible for us to suppress their deck guns/AA positions and I can therefore envisage vast numbers of dead crew members on my submarine during surface attacks.

If it were possible to model our AA gun crews to suppress enemy gunners I'd have less of a problem. Good stuff in theory, but unbalanced in practice.

akdavis
04-30-08, 09:18 AM
Modding the enemy deck armament to be more vulnerable should be possible, although that would broaden the scope significantly. However, I think ignoring surface fire is worse than not being able to fight it out in a gun duel, as the latter was seldom considered advisable in reality.

I hope that you and LukeFF can integrate your work sometime in the future. Some of the best stuff going in my opinion.

LukeFF
04-30-08, 05:06 PM
I hope that you and LukeFF can integrate your work sometime in the future. Some of the best stuff going in my opinion.

I hope so. Observer's work of combining the two engines/motors in each compartment is a stroke of brilliance and should put to rest the complaints about the engine damage people have had up to this point.

Needless to say, I'm very curious to see his modded UPC files. :D

tater
04-30-08, 05:23 PM
This is brilliant.

BTW, I noticed that the dead guy is actually not on the deck, he's below. What I did in my tests/experiments was that when I set "battle surface," I simply manually moved all my "below" deck watch crew to damage control.

I love the idea of diesels that can be damaged but not destroyed (or VERY difficult to destroy). Operationally I think that the boat should never be unable to make way due to diesel engine damage.

Awesome work!

tater

tater
04-30-08, 05:28 PM
Regarding enemy deck guns, one idea might be to make an alternate set of small open mount guns for merchants and maybe subchasers and other small craft. These guns would be far easier to destroy. Real warships would have enough crew that even if you swept their guns clear for a moment, they'd be remanned in no time. Bottom line is duking it out with a DE/DD should be insanity or suicidal desperation.

Can't wait to get my PC set up upstairs (my "man room" is a gutted mess pending remodel).

tater

Ducimus
04-30-08, 06:00 PM
Good work, and damn brilliant thinking. I'll try to offer some more constructive comments later. Late night last night, im not really "with it" right now.

Observer
04-30-08, 06:03 PM
VERY interesting stuff. For the diesels and motors did you remove these two sections?

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 4]
ID= EqSlotDEPA
NameDisplayable= No 3 Main Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoDEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoDieselEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 5]
ID= EqSlotDESA
NameDisplayable= No 4 Main Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoDEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoDieselEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1
and

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 8]
ID= EqSlotEEPA
NameDisplayable= No 3 Electric Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoEEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoElectricEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 9]
ID= EqSlotEESA
NameDisplayable= No 4 Electric Engine
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoEEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoElectricEngine
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1
If so, I can see what you then did in Equipment.upc to make the units the game sees show up as "Engine 1 & 3" and so forth.
I basically rewrote the Engine Room equipment section of the Gato.upc. See the text below:


[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 1]
ID= EqSlotEnginesWall
NameDisplayable= Engine Rooms Pressure Hull ;Bulkhead
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=NULL
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, Bulkhead
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 201
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.3, 0, 0, 1, Minor Leak, 0, 0, NULL, 0.1, 0.2, 0.2
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.3, 0.6, 0, 0, 1, Large hole, 0, 0, NULL, 0.2, 0.5, 0.5
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.6, 0.9, 0, 0, 1, Wall breached, 0, 0, NULL, 0.5, 0.7, 1
DamageDescription4= NULL, 0.9, 1, 0, 0, 1, Wall breached, 0, 0, NULL, 0.7, 1, 1000000

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 2]
ID= EqSlotSDE
NameDisplayable= No 1 & 3 Main Engines
Type=EqFTypeEngineDiesel
AcceptedTypes=GatoDEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, StbdDieselEngines
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 21
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.3, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.3, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.3, 0.5, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.45, 0.8, 96
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.5, 0.6, 0, 0, 1, Broken Axle, 0, 0, NULL, 0.5, 1, 1000000
DamageDescription4= NULL, 0.6, 0.8, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.8, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription5= NULL, 0.8, 1, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.95, 0.8, 96

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 3]
ID= EqSlotPDE
NameDisplayable= No 2 & 4 Main Engines
Type=EqFTypeEngineDiesel
AcceptedTypes=GatoDEngine
UserCustomizable=Yes ;No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, PortDieselEngines
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 55
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.3, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.3, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.3, 0.5, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.45, 0.8, 96
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.5, 0.6, 0, 0, 1, Broken Axle, 0, 0, NULL, 0.5, 1, 1000000
DamageDescription4= NULL, 0.6, 0.8, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.8, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription5= NULL, 0.8, 1, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.95, 0.8, 96

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 4]
ID= EqSlotSEE
NameDisplayable= No 1 & 3 Electric Engines
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoEEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, StbdElectricEngines
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 22
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.3, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.3, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.3, 0.5, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.45, 0.8, 96
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.5, 0.6, 0, 0, 1, Broken Axle, 0, 0, NULL, 0.5, 1, 1000000
DamageDescription4= NULL, 0.6, 0.8, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.8, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription5= NULL, 0.8, 1, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.95, 0.8, 96

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 5]
ID= EqSlotPEE
NameDisplayable= No 2 & 4 Electric Engines
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=GatoEEngine
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, PortElectricEngines
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 56
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.3, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.3, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.3, 0.5, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.45, 0.8, 96
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.5, 0.6, 0, 0, 1, Broken Axle, 0, 0, NULL, 0.5, 1, 1000000
DamageDescription4= NULL, 0.6, 0.8, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.8, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription5= NULL, 0.8, 1, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.95, 0.8, 96

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 2.EquipmentSlot 6]
ID= GatoSternBattery
NameDisplayable= Aft Battery
Type=NULL
AcceptedTypes=NULL
UserCustomizable=No
IDLinkEquipmentIntervalDefault1= NULL, NULL, GatoSternBatteryBasic
ExternalNodeName3D= NULL
ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= 59

Please note that this text addresses both the damage repair time and the actual equipment entry. The damage repair portion requires significantly more explanation to understand the what and why.

Here is the relevant section from the equipment.upc which I have rewritten some portions of as well. It's my intention to also address the other equipment labels, but this is easy and a low priority.


[Equipment 50]
ID=PortDieselEngines
NameDisplayable= No. 2 & 4 Diesel Engines
FunctionalType= EqFTypeEngineDiesel
EquipmentInterval= NULL, NULL
EquipmentSlotType=NULL
ExternalLinkName3D= NULL
Hitpoints= 100
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.3, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.3, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.3, 0.5, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.45, 0.8, 96
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.5, 0.6, 0, 0, 1, Broken Axle, 0, 0, NULL, 0.5, 1, 1000000
DamageDescription4= NULL, 0.6, 0.8, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.8, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription5= NULL, 0.8, 1, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.95, 0.8, 96

[Equipment 51]
ID=StbdElectricEngines
NameDisplayable= No. 1 & 3 Electric Engines
FunctionalType= EqFTypeEngineElectric
EquipmentInterval= NULL, NULL
EquipmentSlotType=NULL
ExternalLinkName3D= NULL
Hitpoints= 100
DamageDescription1= NULL, 0, 0.3, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.3, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription2= NULL, 0.3, 0.5, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.45, 0.8, 96
DamageDescription3= NULL, 0.5, 0.6, 0, 0, 1, Broken Axle, 0, 0, NULL, 0.5, 1, 1000000
DamageDescription4= NULL, 0.6, 0.8, 0, 0, 1, small malfunction, 0, 0, NULL, 0.8, 0.6, 24
DamageDescription5= NULL, 0.8, 1, 0, 0, 1, Misaligned Axis, 0, 0, NULL, 0.95, 0.8, 96

tater
04-30-08, 06:09 PM
Very very cool. Now we can make some .30 cal MGs for small boats, and they'll actually be meaningful :D

Observer
04-30-08, 06:12 PM
My only slight qualm with the damage/death by 20mm etc armaments is that enemy gun positions will keep firing despite being pummeled themselves. It's nigh on impossible for us to suppress their deck guns/AA positions and I can therefore envisage vast numbers of dead crew members on my submarine during surface attacks.

If it were possible to model our AA gun crews to suppress enemy gunners I'd have less of a problem. Good stuff in theory, but unbalanced in practice.

First submarines should not be in gun duels with surface ships. That to the side though I believe this problem is a function of the fact that not all surface ship guns have damage zones.

I believe the same problem exists for the guns on the fleet boat. I intend to check tonight. In either case the equipment is not tied to the zone, so an automatic disconnect exists. Note that in the applicable submarine UPC file if the ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D is set to -1 then the equipment is damaged based on damage to the compartment zone. This is the case for the DG, and AA guns. I intend to fix this.

Observer
04-30-08, 06:24 PM
Modding the enemy deck armament to be more vulnerable should be possible, although that would broaden the scope significantly.
I'd have to check on the zone issue, but I think this could be a second or third project to rezone the surface ship guns.

However, I think ignoring surface fire is worse than not being able to fight it out in a gun duel, as the latter was seldom considered advisable in reality.

I hope that you and LukeFF can integrate your work sometime in the future. Some of the best stuff going in my opinion.
Thanks.

iricund
04-30-08, 06:30 PM
Whilst I recognise that submarines should not be duking it out on the surface if at all possible, there are numerous occasions whereby I'll surface to finish off a crippled vessel with my deck gun rather than waste a torpedo on it. It may not be entirely historically accurate but when we're talking about the odd merchant with maybe a lone deck gun and a couple of AA mounts I think it's valid to preserve torps for future high value targets you may run across. Avoiding the deck gun is simple enough simply by positioning yourself outside its arc of fire if there is only one of them, but the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.

I'd have thought in reality that a crippled vessel would hardly be gunning for the submarine at that point, rather they'd be trying to keep afloat and/or manning the lifeboats. Equally I'd be expecting me deck crew to be sitting there with small arms/manning the fixed guns to suppress/remove any enemy sailors suicidal enough to try and fire back at that point. That's still my only qualm. In terms of the engine damage etc the work looks fantastic. It's merely the small arms fire issue which I take issue with.

EDIT: I should point out that I'm purely talking about small arms and heavy machine gun fire here. If I'm cruising about on the surface with 5" shells hitting me I'd more than expect a few crew to be meeting their maker.

Observer
04-30-08, 06:48 PM
I hope that you and LukeFF can integrate your work sometime in the future. Some of the best stuff going in my opinion.
I hope so. Observer's work of combining the two engines/motors in each compartment is a stroke of brilliance and should put to rest the complaints about the engine damage people have had up to this point.

Needless to say, I'm very curious to see his modded UPC files. :D
In reality, they were always combined, just not in the same way that I did it. In the original, the #1 ME was linked to zone 22 (this is a special zone) while the #3 ME was linked to zone -1. Remember that -1 (from above) means that the zone inherits the damage of the compartment (in this case zone 201). The problem is that there is only two "special" zones for the diesel engines: zone 21 and 55 (DieselEngine1 and DieselEngine2 respectively). When the #1 DE (linked to zone 21) is destroyed the Stbd DEs are lost.

These "special" zones are important, and are specially hard coded so that they do not require the definition of "Category=Engines Room" in the zone definition.

I originally had the idea to add new zone definitions for ME #3 and #4 (link equipment to damage zone), however this didn't work because they wouldn't move the ship unless they contained the "Category=Engines Room" designation in the zone definition. This in turn presented problems because the "special" electric engine zones contain the "Category=Engines Room" designation and won't work properly without it. Suffice it to say I tried every permutation and combination I could think of to make this work and it would not, at least in a believable fashion.

I also tried adding an extra 21 and 55 zone to the Gato with links to the applicable equipment entry. This became a "one to many" data problem and would not represent the individual engine damage properly. This in turn resulted in repair problems for the engines. I even tried some more creative "zone in zone" behavior I've used in other areas, but this proved to be more trouble than it was worth.

In the end, I settled on one big zone linked to one combined equipment file. It's a compromise I'm still not crazy about. I rationalize it by saying it's an abstraction, though the one part I do like is the reduction of speed when damaged. The damage resistance is based on high HP, and still requires balancing. Armor can't be used without some modification to the zone since the DE zone is inside of the ER compartment, and the armor check is only conducted once.

I even toyed with the idea of repairable destroyed equipment similar to the "bulkhead" equipment, but this seems to be unique to the bulkhead equipment item, and given the on screen space limitations, I don't know that adding four new compartments is really practical.

Whew. I hope that helps explain.

Observer
04-30-08, 06:56 PM
BTW, I noticed that the dead guy is actually not on the deck, he's below. What I did in my tests/experiments was that when I set "battle surface," I simply manually moved all my "below" deck watch crew to damage control.
The same is true here (manual movement), I just didn't want to have them take the DC spaces, though I thought about it. The other part is that this represents a proof of concept about adding compartments and crew. I've long been frustrated on how to do this. I thought I had all of the right input but it didn't work, and I couldn't find the missing element. I finally figured it out when I noticed the very bottom entries in the files Ducimus posted.

This is the key:


[UserPlayerUnit 1.FunctionalSubsystem 38]
ID= CrewBerthing
NameDisplayable= Crew Berthing
FunctionalType= CrewMembersGrouping
IDLinkFunctionalSubsystemSlots= CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC1, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC2, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC3, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC4, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC5, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC6, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC7, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC8, 0,CrewMemberSlot_BerthingC9, 0

BTW, I moved the dead guy below, though he was down on the deck in external view, I just didn't take a screen shot of it.

Observer
04-30-08, 07:03 PM
Regarding enemy deck guns, one idea might be to make an alternate set of small open mount guns for merchants and maybe subchasers and other small craft. These guns would be far easier to destroy. Real warships would have enough crew that even if you swept their guns clear for a moment, they'd be remanned in no time. Bottom line is duking it out with a DE/DD should be insanity or suicidal desperation.

Can't wait to get my PC set up upstairs (my "man room" is a gutted mess pending remodel).

tater
I think this could be handled a couple of different ways. Perhaps the easiest is to duplicate the equipment and zone it depending on the application (warship vs. merchant). One other point is that zones can be "destructible". This means that when the zone HP=0 then the object is destroyed. Case in point is the fleet boat rudder. I've adjusted this for the Gato, but I think it may need to be applied to the DG/AA guns. I don't want the DG/AA gun to be able to shoot (by the player) after they have been reported as destroyed, though it may fix the problem by just linking the equipment to a zone.

Observer
04-30-08, 07:07 PM
Whilst I recognise that submarines should not be duking it out on the surface if at all possible, there are numerous occasions whereby I'll surface to finish off a crippled vessel with my deck gun rather than waste a torpedo on it. It may not be entirely historically accurate but when we're talking about the odd merchant with maybe a lone deck gun and a couple of AA mounts I think it's valid to preserve torps for future high value targets you may run across. Avoiding the deck gun is simple enough simply by positioning yourself outside its arc of fire if there is only one of them, but the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.

I'd have thought in reality that a crippled vessel would hardly be gunning for the submarine at that point, rather they'd be trying to keep afloat and/or manning the lifeboats. Equally I'd be expecting me deck crew to be sitting there with small arms/manning the fixed guns to suppress/remove any enemy sailors suicidal enough to try and fire back at that point. That's still my only qualm. In terms of the engine damage etc the work looks fantastic. It's merely the small arms fire issue which I take issue with.

EDIT: I should point out that I'm purely talking about small arms and heavy machine gun fire here. If I'm cruising about on the surface with 5" shells hitting me I'd more than expect a few crew to be meeting their maker.
In the case of small arms fire, range is your friend. You won't have to worry about it if you back off to 2 - 2.5 kyds.

akdavis
04-30-08, 08:56 PM
Whilst I recognise that submarines should not be duking it out on the surface if at all possible, there are numerous occasions whereby I'll surface to finish off a crippled vessel with my deck gun rather than waste a torpedo on it. It may not be entirely historically accurate but when we're talking about the odd merchant with maybe a lone deck gun and a couple of AA mounts I think it's valid to preserve torps for future high value targets you may run across. Avoiding the deck gun is simple enough simply by positioning yourself outside its arc of fire if there is only one of them, but the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.

Sounds like you want them to stay mostly invulnerable to fire then. Seriously though, you should have to weigh the risks of engaging in a surface action just to save a mechanical device. It should not be the no-brainer decision it always was in the past.

It's just too bad that the captain (you) can't be shot on the bridge and insta-end your career. ;)

Ducimus
04-30-08, 09:27 PM
I havent followed this in detail yet (i keep glossing over it speed reading), but i do have one concern. Istrongly suspect that we're all going off into 3 different directions with the same file. RFB has their own version, ive just posted my own revision last night:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_03.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_06.jpg

and then we have this brilliant piece of rework in progress.

Rather then come up with 3 different versions of the same file, i thought maybe at some point we should all put our heads together make "the" submarine upc files.

Another concern i have is that major revisions in this file requires a start of a new career game. I think we'll drive everyone nuts in that regard. Ironically as i was uploading the new version of TM last night, and was thinking to myself myself, "im not touching that file again for awhile!", i then saw this thread, and immediatly my hand went to my forehead (the proverbial facepalm) and thought, "We really need to work on our coordination here".

tater
04-30-08, 09:45 PM
the thought of losing valuable watch members to AA gun fire would still irk me some.


Which is why a real skipper would think twice before needlessly endangering his crew for fear of "wasting a torpedo."

Course I think in terms of a reasonable career spanning tonnage take of maybe 100,000 tons, not that much per patrol.

tater

Observer
04-30-08, 10:07 PM
I havent followed this in detail yet (i keep glossing over it speed reading), but i do have one concern. Istrongly suspect that we're all going off into 3 different directions with the same file. RFB has their own version, ive just posted my own revision last night:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_03.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/tm15b_preview_06.jpg

and then we have this brilliant piece of rework in progress.

Rather then come up with 3 different versions of the same file, i thought maybe at some point we should all put our heads together make "the" submarine upc files.

Another concern i have is that major revisions in this file requires a start of a new career game. I think we'll drive everyone nuts in that regard. Ironically as i was uploading the new version of TM last night, and was thinking to myself myself, "im not touching that file again for awhile!", i then saw this thread, and immediatly my hand went to my forehead (the proverbial facepalm) and thought, "We really need to work on our coordination here".

Concur. This is about 1 months worth of work for me. I spent a lot of time trying every possible idea and combination I could think of to get the propulsion model to work. I really didn't want to give up on that part of this damage model. In either case, this is why I've no problem sharing the information. In fact I rather dreaded doing the other boats, so the more help the better. How would you and the RFB team propose cooperating on this?

LukeFF
05-01-08, 01:52 AM
Concur. This is about 1 months worth of work for me. I spent a lot of time trying every possible idea and combination I could think of to get the propulsion model to work. I really didn't want to give up on that part of this damage model. In either case, this is why I've no problem sharing the information. In fact I rather dreaded doing the other boats, so the more help the better. How would you and the RFB team propose cooperating on this?
Speaking for the RFB team (since I'm the one who's heavily modded the UPC files), I'm primarily interested in the parts of the files you've modded (i.e., Equipment.upc and the submarine UPC files and anything else you've modded). For me it's then a simple matter of merging your changes with the other ones I've made (things like crew rosters, upgrade pack schedules, etc.). What might be the best way to do that is to upload a set of files(s) that contain only the sections you've modded, and then like I said above I can then merge this in to my work for RFB.

And as well, you can sign up at the RFB forums ( http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php?sid=7a82042423185c20ab647a9120c08614 ), so you can discuss this in further detail over there as well.

andycaccia
05-01-08, 05:52 AM
It's a grat work.
I'd like to know more about the crew "berthing" (or what its name is) compartment. What is its funcion?

Ducimus
05-01-08, 01:31 PM
>>How would you and the RFB team propose cooperating on this?

We all probably have to get on the same page as to what we want from the sub UPC files to establish a baseline, and then go from there.

This , overall, is something i think is very crucial becuase these files directly effect what the player sees/interacts with, all the time. On top of that, these files plug into 3D nodes in both the interior and exterior, not to mention damage zones. So i would think a baseline upc file is important, and certainly worth the time to iron out.

As an aside, im really appreciative that your looking at the damage zones. Its something that needs to be done. Had i the tools, (not to mention the knowledge to use them effectively), id have been into the sub damage zones months ago, they are in dire need of work.

tater
05-01-08, 01:42 PM
I agree. This is sort of like NSM, or redwine's work, too. A huge can of worms, but one well worth sorting out as a baseline.

Observer
05-01-08, 08:45 PM
It's a grat work.
I'd like to know more about the crew "berthing" (or what its name is) compartment. What is its funcion?

The berthing compartment is the same as a crew quarters compartment, and is intended to represent a place where the crew would rest. The way the crew management model works in SH4 makes a rest quarters compartment unnecessary, so this was just a name I applied to a compartment for moving the bridge crew out of the bridge so they would not be injured/killed in a depth charge attack. I opted to make a new compartment for this purpose rather than using the DC crew compartment. I can make the name anything it needs to be, berthing was just the first thing I thought of. I think of this as moving the bridge crew "in hull" so they are afforded the same protection as the rest of the crew.

Observer
05-01-08, 09:04 PM
I would propose listing a set of objectives for the UPC files in particular, and then defining a set of standards to meet these objectives. In other words, what are the areas that need to be fixed, and then define the standards to apply to fix the problem. At a minimum, I think this should address issues like compartment numbering and the max crew for each compartment. The actual number of crew members in each compartment can then be adjusted via the FunctionalSubsystem line in the UPC file.

I have no problem posting the files, and I've posted some of the relevant sections of the Equipment and Gato UPC files in this thread. I've also got to point out that to accomplish the scope identified in the OP, many other files are going to be affected, for example, the submarine zon files and the zones.cfg, in addition to the most of the other UPC files.

Tonight I managed to correctly zone the 20mm single AA gun and correct the issue allowing the gun to continue firing after it had been destroyed. I've identified a problem of tying the weapon slot to a specific zone that I have to work out carefully. I think this is going to end up affecting many more UPC files. I think I'm also going to have to make some adjustments to the Sub Parts DAT files in order to create clones of equipment because, for example, the fore and aft AA stations share the same equipment meaning it would share the same zone. Obviously this presents a problem because now the zone is shared in two locations causing problems on damage and repair. I think I can fix this with cloning, but it's going to require some unique adjustments to the weapons.upc to make it work. And this doesn't address the upgrade pack problem on these pieces of equipment. I now understand why the Dev's made the ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1 for this equipment because this becomes so darn complex. In either case, I think it's possible, but will just take time to carefully work through. I've got it clear in my head what needs to happen...I hope this explanation makes sense.

I can post the files if desired, but it will probably tomorrow at the earliest.

LukeFF
05-02-08, 04:02 PM
Tonight I managed to correctly zone the 20mm single AA gun and correct the issue allowing the gun to continue firing after it had been destroyed. I've identified a problem of tying the weapon slot to a specific zone that I have to work out carefully. I think this is going to end up affecting many more UPC files. I think I'm also going to have to make some adjustments to the Sub Parts DAT files in order to create clones of equipment because, for example, the fore and aft AA stations share the same equipment meaning it would share the same zone. Obviously this presents a problem because now the zone is shared in two locations causing problems on damage and repair. I think I can fix this with cloning, but it's going to require some unique adjustments to the weapons.upc to make it work. And this doesn't address the upgrade pack problem on these pieces of equipment. I now understand why the Dev's made the ExternalDamageZoneTypeID3D= -1 for this equipment because this becomes so darn complex. In either case, I think it's possible, but will just take time to carefully work through. I've got it clear in my head what needs to happen...I hope this explanation makes sense.

I can post the files if desired, but it will probably tomorrow at the earliest.

Excellent stuff you're doing there! Take your time with posting the files; the more refined they are when you release them, the better.

Observer
05-02-08, 07:36 PM
Update: I've finished cloning the 20mm single AA gun and the method seems to work but I need to test with one other gun type and then test the upgrade function in the campaign to make sure it still works properly.

Here are some screen shots...

The aft AA mount is the first one destroyed. Notice the message.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-05-02_202916_296.jpg

The fore AA mount still works properly.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-05-02_202933_859.jpg

Damage control screen showing aft AA gun (only) destroyed
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-05-02_202939_609.jpg

Now the fore AA gun has been destroyed. Notice the message.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-05-02_203040_281.jpg

Damage control screen showing both AA guns destroyed. Notice the text for each of the AA mounts.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/Observer723/SH4Img2008-05-02_203045_109.jpg

dean_acheson
05-03-08, 12:24 PM
Looks really good, I can't wait to try it.

chrysanthos
09-24-11, 01:23 PM
i want to learn how to change those zone in order to make the damage control to work....i have some ships that this damage is not working:/ can you help me please?

chrysanthos
10-22-11, 12:57 PM
the s3d is very hard tool...specially for me anyway i have managed to mess around with kongo and i found the spheres and boxes about damage....now what?? i tried to change some of the armor from -1 to 15 and the game crashes:/ anyone now the right procedure to send via readme?

chrysanthos
11-11-11, 02:17 PM
is anyone not too busy to make the kongo battleship playble? thats a friendly request...