Surface Warfare MoD Poll

[John W. Hamm]

This is a simple Poll, if a based surface Warfare Mod for DD's and possibly larger craft was created in the spirit of SH4 as and add on to it would you play it. ? I think this would also be a good place to discuss the theories possibilties and limitations of creating a suface mod as well.

[Raptor1]

Only DDs? What's wrong with the full spectrum of Surface Ships?

[M. Sarsfield]

I'd only play it once the depth charge and surface torpedo issues were resolved.

[akdavis]

Unfortunately, I think the novelty of the AI conversions will wear off fairly quickly. The real prequisite to a "full-conversion" mod would be high-detail ships with at least some crew stations.

[Hartmann]

Very interesting a surface warfare mod. i woul play it as i did with some destroyer command mods or the original "grat naval battles"

the depth charges in destroyers are useless because submarine IA is unable to dive.:hmm:


but is a hard work, you need a campaign, surface ship stations and other difficult things, but i´m sure that it could be done with time.

[geosub1978]

"great naval battles"

What a sweet memory it is, isn't it?

I especially remember "GREAT NAVAL BATTLES No 2 and No4".

A rework on them is the dream of a lifetime!

[Schroeder]

I've just tested Mikhayl's playable Clemson class destroyer and small oiler.
It is a lot of fun, at least for some time. Sure, there are no highly detailed stations and also no damage control options yet, but I've seen this community accomplish so many great things that I think it would be possible to create a good surface mod (if given enough time).
:up:

[John W. Hamm]

Only DDs? What's wrong with the full spectrum of Surface Ships?


Well I was thinking initially DD's only, Ultimately I would like to see it done in much the same as the subs, a progression of earning rank as well as better and larger ships, all the way to the BB.

Another reason I initially say just DD is becasue (for the purpose of the present game configuration) it most closely resembles the submarine in both structure size and crew size.

[John W. Hamm]

I thought this would fit here it is drom another thread

Problem with the damage stuff is that it would require new zones adapted to the ship, new hitboxes adapted to the new zones, probably new equipments and stuff in the .upc files, etc. It would be worth it for someone willing to do a full all-DD mod, but a single ship it's too much work for a limited final interest.
The lazy argument : fixing depth charge shake damage is OK, but patching 5" shell holes in a diesel engine or that kind of damage is not, so in a way the inability to repair stuff is "semi realistic" :p
Also in UBM there's a "hitpoint" counter on the damage screen, useful to decide when you really need to back off.
For the rec manual, the buttons don't work but pressing "N" does :up: Distance measurement, yep could be useful :hmm:

Well with as Many surface ships as you are producing and the ability you and Xantroles have to produce more, maybe it is time to start considering A full on DD MoD something similar in the way of RFB, or TM. That would allow the option of surface warfare, Promotions and Upgrades. I would certainly be willing to work on the MoD team, I can't do alot with the 3D modeling but I can cerainly work in the scripting area and I'm sure there are others as well with skills, that would want to. (though I know alot are tied up with RFB at the moment) there are still others out there.

I would also be more then happy to help a full Surface Ship Mod, With Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships (Auxiliaries? Could be fun), and a full campaign

Hopefully an additional benefit of the popularity of these surface mods will be to convince the devs/Ubi to do a surface game next time out


Quote:Xantrokoles if quoteing Raptor1
Originally Posted by Raptor1
I would also be more then happy to help a full Surface Ship Mod, With Destroyers, Cruisers, Battleships (Auxiliaries? Could be fun), and a full campaign


When you got a DD, CA,CL,BB campaign you all want a hovercraft, nuke sub, Aircraft campaign and then a tank game .....:rotfl:
Pease belive me that BB's are boring without AI torpedoes:damn:

When you compare it with Battlestations Midway, you will see the other game idea:smug:
This engine is for subs; small, divable, lowarmed subs;)

Quote:Xantrokoles is quoting Sonarman
Originally Posted by Sonarman
Hopefully an additional benefit of the popularity of these surface mods will be to convince the devs/Ubi to do a surface game next time out.


I think they take their announced break, didn't they?
And I don't think they will do another SH5, but this is not the theread for a discussion:roll:


Fully agreed Xantro, IMO all surface ships are boring, I made mine because I was bored, but I better like to run silent and being the "weak" & tracked one :|\\
For the torpedoes I didn't really bother because I made it more like some "sail simulator" ship than a warship. But I was thinking, if you attach the torpedo tubes to a mobile launcher (like a gun turret), I wonder if the torpedo would still spawn with 0° angle from your sub or 0° angle from its parent launcher object Z axis :hmm:
And keep on, I don't plan any other ships myself !
PS : Seine Franzose ist klasse, and when the tank is done please make me a playable x-wing :D




Quote:John Hamm is quoting Mikhayl
Originally Posted by Mikhayl
Fully agreed Xantro, IMO all surface ships are boring, I made mine because I was bored, but I better like to run silent and being the "weak" & tracked one :|\\



Yes and Napoleon also thought the idea of a steamed powered ship was a horrible idea.

Initially IBM thought the personal computer would go overlike a Led Balloon.

I can give hundreds of examples... You guys stumbled onto something that has brought alot of promise... Just read the forums. Actually there is more than a few threads on wanting a festoyer Command 2, So I would say alot of others don't share that opinion or you can continue to minimize it i guess... based on your own personal opinions.

But I offer you this... if the poll on the other side continues to show a larger group wanting it than not, and you are both still unwilling to help make the mod then I beg you please at least make a how to guide, so that others can at least work on it.

I know you keep refering to the fact that, people should just learn it for themselves, but some people just are not as astute in being able to reverse engineer and understand it as well as others, however they can follow a guide with more ease.

[jdkbph]

The question in my mind is whether the SH4 AI and interface is capable of supporting the kinds of functions that a surface warfare sim would require? For instance, surface warships rarely engaged in combat independently (the German raiders being a notable exception). They were almost always accompanied by other warships in one or more formations.

So is the AI capable of maintaining at least rudimentary formations such as line astern, line abreast, eschelon, etc.?

Is the Interface capable of directing and managing formations of two or more ships, such as issuing orders to form or reform, change heading/speed, attach or detach, fire/hold fire, etc?

If not, from an historical simulation point of view, it's probably not worth the effort.

$.02

JD

[Raptor1]

The question in my mind is whether the SH4 AI and interface is capable of supporting the kinds of functions that a surface warfare sim would require? For instance, surface warships rarely engaged in combat independently (the German raiders being a notable exception). They were almost always accompanied by other warships in one or more formations.

So is the AI capable of maintaining at least rudimentary formations such as line astern, line abreast, eschelon, etc.?

Is the Interface capable of directing and managing formations of two or more ships, such as issuing orders to form or reform, change heading/speed, attach or detach, fire/hold fire, etc?

If not, from an historical simulation point of view, it's probably not worth the effort.

$.02

JD

Even though surface ships are controllable with the 1.5 Tactical Group thing, I remember reading it's impossible to modify so probably not

But consider this, You are the commander of a single surface ship, not the admiral of a Task Force, The campaign could be modified to send you with a certain Task Group or Task Force, So you can play a single surface ship that is a part of such a formation

[John W. Hamm]

But consider this, You are the commander of a single surface ship, not the admiral of a Task Force, The campaign could be modified to send you with a certain Task Group or Task Force, So you can play a single surface ship that is a part of such a formation

Excellent point, not to mention from time to time, "though it was rare" surface ships did operate independent. And lets face it there are some things we just have to accept that we are limited on being able to reproduce with this game and its engine, but that doesn't meen we shouldn't try to do it. I certainly think it would be worth the effort. I can point out several threads of others asking for a Destoyer Commander 2, and alot of others just wanting to have surface ships or even a surface mod.

[horsa]

First the good news.

A surface warfare sim based on SH4 is worth doing, and I hope there is sufficient enthusiasm, skill, momentum and staying power needed to get there. I’d vote with my feet on that one. In that respect I wish you, John W Hamm, all the luck in your campaign to get a core team of enthusiasts going.

I say that first because what follows could well be interpreted as a case for not doing it.

The bad news


Despite what many folk say about how they “can’t wait and would sell their grandmother to get one”, surface warfare has only limited real support in the long run. In the days when there was a surface sim, the Destroyer command forum was a backwater compared with Silent Hunter 2.

It will never be everything you would want it to be. You will inevitably have to work with some very annoying limitations. SH4 was designed around a submarine and it will constantly catch you out.
Then there’s the issue of what type of surface sim is everybody talking about ?
Fleet actions ?
ASW ?

Ironically you may already have hit on the most suitable surface sim to match the game conditions that SH4 imposes on you – commerce raiding. Something like the Graf Spee operates as a lone hunter like the submarine and fits nicely into the existing mission, patrol and campaign structure.

ASW may come a close second but , failing some very ingenious modding, I can’t see how you can currently get round the issue how do DDs depth charge and where are the AI submarines ?

As to fleet actions, which is what many folk mean when they want surface action , they are inherently boring unless you can impose campaign consideration on it. A career progression like you have with subs just won’t do. One engagement just becomes like another. As a novelty item they are fine ( guns blazing etc) but there’s very little room for varied gameplay. I say that very reluctantly because this is the area that most interests me.

So my six penny worth , coming from somebody who has been involved in trying to find the holy grail of surface warfare sims for 6 years or more, is yes do it, but don’t expect a complete solution. Neither should you expect most of the folk who are currently making a lot of noise to be still with you 1 or 2 years further down the track.

Best of luck, John.

[The_Pharoah]

wow! always wanted to hear from a dev! :up:

I see/read/hear what you're saying but I guess, for someone who loves sims and esp loves naval combat, I'm definitely in it for the long haul. Heck I only got 1.5 when I saw the DD addon that xantrokoles did. :yep:

I understand that large scale naval combat was a rare occurrance in the ETO (ie timelag between Graf spee, bismark, scharnhorst, etc battles) but it occurred quite a lot in the PTO which is where SHIV is concentrated on. besides, this is a hypothetical game anyway based roughly on real events that occurred and using equipment of the time. lets 'enjoy' it for what its worth.

any support that you, the dev team, could give in helping the modding community out would be greatly appreciated. hell, I've encouraged members of my online squad back into SHIV because of the surface combat option. we're all looking forward to some MP play (if possible) at a future lan sitting.

the demand is there.

[akdavis]

Ironically you may already have hit on the most suitable surface sim to match the game conditions that SH4 imposes on you – commerce raiding. Something like the Graf Spee operates as a lone hunter like the submarine and fits nicely into the existing mission, patrol and campaign structure.

I actually think that patrol/torpedo boats is best surface fit for the sim, but then we should have Knights of the Sea at some point, which would kinda dampen the enthusiasm. Although, if KotS has taken a decided turn away from sim toward action game, there might still be a place for such a mod.

[W4lt3r]

Heck, im in to support the surface warfare mod as well. I want change from the constant lurking and avoidance of the escort while i can take them head on with this:arrgh!:

I do hope though you'll implement some light cruisers, such as the Atlanta or Oakland for US. I love those beauties ^^

[The General]

I think that the work that goes into this MOD will be beneficial towards an eventual Full Global Theatre Warfare or F.U.B.A.R. for short :D

[peewee]

"great naval battles"

What a sweet memory it is, isn't it?

I especially remember "GREAT NAVAL BATTLES No 2 and No4".

A rework on them is the dream of a lifetime!

Man, I had forgotten all about that game........though I played it for hours.
That and 'silent service'...me and the kids thought those little blocks of pixels that were apparantly jap battleships were SO cool

[horsa]

wow! always wanted to hear from a dev! :up:
Thanks for the compliment but I think you might be confusing Pacific Aces with Pacific Wolves :D

BTW I bought UBM on the back of these playable surface ships as well.

[geosub1978]

[/quote]
Man, I had forgotten all about that game........though I played it for hours.
That and 'silent service'...me and the kids thought those little blocks of pixels that were apparantly jap battleships were SO cool[/quote]

Well, Silent Service II was a phenomenon. Not only its graphics in Super VGA were very good (All the japanese Man O' Wars were better than in SH1), but also the japanese countermeasures, avoidance tactics, destroyer counter-attacks were quite realistic. I still remember that in the case a merchant detected you on surface or detected torpedo wake, it turned away with maximum speed.

In SH3/4 they zig-zag.:down:

As for Great Naval Battles IV, if it was not a DOS game, I would still play it, as the imagination and combination of surface battles and fleet compositions were endless!!

In my opinion this is what Ubisoft should pay attention at...
A new Great Naval Battles IV which would/could/might cooperate with SH4 or SH5 in the future.

I am not very font of a SURFACE mod of SH series. SH is devoted to submarines which all of us love.

The case is a new surface battle game!

[horsa]

Bump

[nikimcbee]

It would be cool if they could turn it into DC2.

[LukeFF]

SH4 is a submarine simulation, plain and simple. While I admire the efforts of those to make surface ships playable, the fact of the matter is the game just wasn't designed for this.

[Raptor1]

SH4 is a submarine simulation, plain and simple. While I admire the efforts of those to make surface ships playable, the fact of the matter is the game just wasn't designed for this.
It's a compromise, While we can't accomplish everything we can certainly accomplish something and play that until a real Surface Sim comes along

[thasaint]

i'd sign up for surface action in a minute, i'm loving the commerce raider and pocket BB mods, and a full fledged sim on them with a campaign, missions, and career progression would be sweet.
plus as already stated, the whole idea of a commerce raider is the same as a sub, just on the surface so not as stealthy.
these mods fully rejuvinated my interest in this sim as submarine warfare is getting stale for me atm.

[ivank]

A Prinz Eugen, Bismarck class, Sharnhorst class, HMS Hood, Prince of Wales, etc... would be amazing

[Charlielima]

Oh yeah. Capital Ships are grand but cheating death and destruction with a DD doing a torp run on a BB, Cruiser, Carrier, or other high value unit would be a kick.
If I'm going to drive a boat on the surface I choose Papa Tangos or brown water navy weapon systems. Maybe even a Sand Pebbles / Yangtze river scenario where sailors go on the beach with BARs springfields and such. but that would make it a shooter sim. CL