Just when you thought the CT was crowded...

[Ducimus]

It's gonna get alot more crowded :rotfl:

Basically, non of the positions in SH4 directly correspond to crew positions on a fleet boat during WW2.

( 6th picture down from the top:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08315.htm

And then around 1:34 time mark in this Run silent run deep clip on youtube (yeah yeah, as if a Clark gable movie is a credible source)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIOvxoYs9OE
)


So we have to shoehorn what we have to make a "best fit". I started that earlier, but got an idea on how to improve it, and decide to follow up on the idea.



Heres the result of a prototype ive been working on,
Battle stations:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/int_test_04.jpg
What is new here is would be the firing key operator behind the helmsman,(dont get excited, he just stands there) and a 2nd sonar man.

yes thats right, two sonar man. During an attack, a fleetboat would have two
sonarman at stations. One would be constantly scanning around for situational awarness, the other would be tracking the immediate target. Unfortunatly, theres a problem......

Due to the animations, the 2nd sonar man blocks access to the active sonar controls in 3d view.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/int_test_05.jpg
Looks like hes sticking his hand somewhere where the sun doesnt shine if you ask me :roll: I could move him to the left, but then he'll be clipping through the little wall next to the CT hatch. So im leaning on just removing him. Not sure yet.


Also, in a forehead slapping moment, i figured out how to add more crewman. (Major DUH! on my part)
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/int_test_06.jpg


Now before i was "borrowing" crewman from other compartments. The game doesn't care. The "scope of the variable" for crew and node assigments seems to be that node and crew are accessible to the entire submarine object, regardless of what dat the node physcially resides in. That said you have to place a node to get it to appear where you want.

One fundamental problem is THERES NOT ENOUGH CHARACTER NODES!!!!!!!

So, the obvious solution would be to clone character nodes or make new ones following the syntax the game uses. Unfortunatly its not as easy as that. If you create new nodes that do not already exist, the game doesnt acknowledge them. Clone, or try to make new nodes however you want, all you want, doesnt matter, to the game they don't seem to exist.

WITH ONE EXCEPTION!!!!

Repair team nodes. There are 3 of them .RT1_dummy, RT2_dummy, RT3_dummy. On a hunch, i created an RT4_dummy, and the game accepted it. I then created an RT5_dummy, and the game accepted it. I then created an RT9_dummy, and again, the game accepted it.

So i have this theory:

I think what's going on is that character lists are hardcoded somewhere in an array, and the game is matching the nodes in the dat files, to this array.


The exception seems to be repair team nodes. The array for the repair team is either very long (as theortically 1 through 9 will work), OR this particular array is basically a linked list, in which the size of the array will grow or shrink as needed and you could add as much as you want.

More then likely though, its just a fixed array with a large subset. Its probably 1 through 9. Seeing how it stops at 3 by default, i dont think we'll need that many anyway.

The beauty of this is just because it was intended for the repair team, doesnt mean you have to use it as such!

Now mind you, i created RT4, RT5, and RT9 nodes. I didn't test for anything between RT5 and RT9, im just theorizing that they should all work. So im thinking i have 4 other nodes in which to play with.

At any rate, no ETA on this. Im JUST starting this, and nothing is finalized, although i think the gato prototype is *close* to being done. At that point ill make the UPC file changes to all boats that use the gato interior, and the start working on all the otheri nteriors and do the same.

[tedhealy]

She cannaht handle anymore sir

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/yurkb/test/star-treks-scotty.jpg

Seriously though, freaking sweet!

[CaptainHaplo]

Wow... all I can say is ... well.. WOW....

Ducimus - thats not just amazing - I actually think you explained it in a way that I might be able to muddle thru before its all over because I had one of those light bulbs above my head flicker - though that could have just been a power issue locally... not sure yet. Either way - great work!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Cool :yep:


RDP

[swdw]

What is new here is would be the firing key operator behind the helmsman,(dont get excited, he just stands there) and a 2nd sonar man.

Due to the animations, the 2nd sonar man blocks access to the active sonar controls in 3d view.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/int_test_05.jpg
Looks like hes sticking his hand somewhere where the sun doesnt shine if you ask me :roll: I could move him to the left, but then he'll be clipping through the little wall next to the CT hatch. So im leaning on just removing him. Not sure yet.


It looks like the hand is far enough away from the panel you can change the clip distance on the sonar camera to remove the hand in this view.

[gimpy117]

it's like that old fad of packing VW beetles with people, except this bettle is armed and weighs over 100 tonnes....

and while your at it could we have a helmsman on the ol' p-class boats when they are surfaced??
( in the upper bridge area of the conning tower below the watch station)

[Sailor Steve]

Pretty coooooooool!:rock:

[Vorkapitan]

Duc,

Ya got enough for a poker game!!! :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Mav87th]

Ducimus this is cool.

Please leave the 2. sonarman - Personaly i'd rather have him there making his part of the crowded impression then caring about his hand (he can shove it where he wants)

I'm looking very much forward too this mod.

[M. Sarsfield]

Is it possible to permanently move a hard-coded node? The helmsman needs to be stationed in the CT, which is the location of the primary helm. The one in the con is an auxiliary helm.

[Ducimus]

Ducimus this is cool.

Please leave the 2. sonarman - Personaly i'd rather have him there making his part of the crowded impression then caring about his hand (he can shove it where he wants)



Well like i said, hes totally blocking access to the active sonar controls. The only work around, would be to move all the 3d objects, and shift them to the right. This includes the the sonar set, all the dials it contains (each are individual objects), everything. Looks to be a royal PITA. side note: ive tried adjusting the clipping on the camera view. doesnt help. I suppose i could shift the acutal node to the left some more, but then he'll be clipping through the wall.

Personnaly, i prefer Function over form. If i have to make a decision between being able to access functional controls over visual eyecandy, well...... *sigh*




Is it possible to permanently move a hard-coded node? The helmsman needs to be stationed in the CT, which is the location of the primary helm. The one in the con is an auxiliary helm.

They guy eyeballing you in one of the above pics, IS the helmsman. hes been in the CT for quite some time now. :D

[M. Sarsfield]

Sorry, Ducimus. I forgot about that. I haven't used TM since 1.4.

[Ducimus]

I knew there was a reason why i slept on this.

I changed the animation graph on the 2nd sonar man.

Heres a prototype to play with: (I want to emphasize this is a prototype, a concept build )

http://files.filefront.com/z+Test+GATO+Int+proto7z/;10051023;/fileinfo.html

One thing i have noticed. If you go to battle stations, crash dive, and advance TC, the extra characters disappear. Im not exactly sure what tirggers this, but on the whole it seems to work.

Ive included all the other associated files with the interiors so it will run correcty. I tested this on stock version of the game, and it seemed to work OK.

[M. Sarsfield]

I think have seen the characters disappear in stock game, too, when TC is advanced. I think even ships will disappear after a certain TC setting.

[Munchausen]

If you go to battle stations, crash dive, and advance TC, the extra characters disappear. Im not exactly sure what tirggers this, but on the whole it seems to work.

Do they come back when you exit time compression?

Also, if this mod is installed, do you need to start a new career for the extra characters to show? Or will they show up after an install while in port?

[tomoose]

....in stock game that characters would disappear during TC. I'm usually in the nav map during TC but on the odd occasion I've cranked up TC while in the control room, certain characters have disappeared and reappeared once dropping out of warp.

[nfitzsimmons]

....in stock game that characters would disappear during TC. I'm usually in the nav map during TC but on the odd occasion I've cranked up TC while in the control room, certain characters have disappeared and reappeared once dropping out of warp.

I've seen the same thing.

[skwasjer]

This is a setting in one of the cfg's.

[TIME COMPRESSION]
...
CharacterAnim=4
Particles=8
...


No characters/anims, and particles is things like fires, funnel smoke etc.

Ships will remain visible though...


[edit] I almost forgot: cool find, Ducimus!

[Observer]

Consider cloning the bridge watch crew nodes and moving them to the conning tower or control room as appropriate for when the boat is submerged. I've not played with this to know how/if it is possible, but it could have an important application for something I have in mind related to the damage models, specifically the deck watch crew getting injured during a depth charge attack when the bridge zone takes damage. I have a few ideas on how to address this this injury problem, but moving the crew to a different compartment when submerged might be the better solution.

[Ducimus]

Thats a good idea observer, except that 3d nodes are handled differently from where the crew resides. Or so is my working presumption.

I could for instance, (and have in current publsih of TM), take a crewman from the engine room. Make him APPEAR in a 3d node by assigning it to him when on watch. His effeciency ratings and such will only effect the compartment hes acutally assigned to, even though he appears elsewhere. For example the helmsmen in current TM is acutaly in the engine room. If the CT takes massive damage, he will (im quite sure) recieve no injuries because hes still assigned to the engine room.

Thats my guess anyway, ive never ran a test to prove it. 3d nodes, are in my rather rusty knowledge of OOP, Global in scope to the submarine object.

For instance the Helmsman node, you would think can only be accessed by crewman in the compartment that contains the node. Not true, you can take any crewman, from anywhere in the boat, and have him appear there. Where the node resides only dictates where it appears, what you fill it with, is global in scope to the submarine object.

I have for example, taken a member of the CT, and sat him on the bow in a commando node (MCO1), but since hes still in the CT as assigned by the subs UPC file, he stays right where he is when on watch. Even if the boat submerges. (i should have taken a screenshot of that, it was halarious)

[Ducimus]

Having said all that.. what i dont remember is what the game will do when it has two nodes of the same thing.

You have to use exact node names. For exmaple "PL_dummy" will always work. "PL_dummy2" will not. Now i don't remember (and im sure ive tried it at least once late night :roll:) is what the game will do when it has two "PL_dummy" nodes. I think It will either pick one over the other, or use both. Certainly an experiment worth trying.

[Observer]

It occurs to me that while an interesting idea, SH4 differs fundamentally from SH3 because the crewmember slots are compartment specific. In the case of the bridge watch, the compartment state changes when surfaced and submerged, so while it might be possible to move the 3D object crew members to other compartments by relocating, or moving the node, it does not have a real impact because the crew member is still located in the assigned compartment. In fact, in the case of the bridge crew, I suspect they would not show either because the compartment state changes when submerged. At least I think it's a case of the compartment state change...I've seen no other setting that could be used to regulate whether the compartment is active or inactive.

StatusActive= Yes
StatusActive= No
Further, I bet that only these functional types have state changes between surface and submerged - this might be useful later.

; FunctionalType= ObservationRoom
; FunctionalType= ArtilleryRoom
; FunctionalType= FlakRoom
I guess in the end, the crew model is an abstraction (ironically just like Dan said in after SH4 was released...or maybe in development, I forget...and similar to several other areas of SH4), rather than a true-to-life representation.

I might suggest, however, instead of moving crewmembers from other compartments (e.g. the nodes), simply add the necessary crew to the compartment, and remove them from the other compartment in the CrewMemberSlot portion of the applicable UPC file (and adjusting the EffciencyDenominator and EffciencyDenominatorBS). I wouldn't be opposed to making the DC team smaller while adding additional crew members to the CT compartment. Or, additional crew members can just be added to the CT compartment (though I think it might run into problems with the availble screen space).

[UserPlayerUnit 1.Compartment 3.CrewMemberSlot 1]
ID=CrewMemberSlot_CommandW1L
NameDisplayable= 1st Section Officer On The Deck
Type= Officer
WatchIndex= 1
IDLinkCrewMember= HOFFComm
WatchCrewMemberSlot3D= SO_dummy
BattleStationsCrewMemberSlot3D= SO_dummy
WatchAccessoriesForAdding3DObjects= NULL
WatchAccessoriesForSubtracting3DObjects= NULL
BattleAccessoriesForAdding3DObjects= NULL
BattleAccessoriesForSubtracting3DObjects= NULL

[Observer]

Having said all that.. what i dont remember is what the game will do when it has two nodes of the same thing.

You have to use exact node names. For exmaple "PL_dummy" will always work. "PL_dummy2" will not. Now i don't remember (and im sure ive tried it at least once late night :roll:) is what the game will do when it has two "PL_dummy" nodes. I think It will either pick one over the other, or use both. Certainly an experiment worth trying.

I think it ends up being the same problem we had back in SH3 with the sensors, or the problem I've recently had with propulsion zones: SH4 isn't coded to handle duplicates of the same node. I tried long ago to add two hydrophones and/or two ASDIC sensors (the latter for improved beam geometry) and it didn't work. I think the same will be true here.

[Ducimus]

I might suggest, however, instead of moving crewmembers from other compartments (e.g. the nodes), simply add the necessary crew to the compartment, and remove them from the other compartment in the CrewMemberSlot portion of the applicable UPC file

Ive been doing just that if im reading your post correctly. The "borrowing" of crewmembers from other compartments is something im trying to move away from.

As per this screenshot:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/int_test_06.jpg

I added two crewman to the CT. I did not remove any crewman from the engineroom (which is where truncation will happen first is suspect). I tested this prototype mod in the lowest resolution (1024 X 768) and it isnt truncating the crewman, however the absolute maximum is now represented in that screenshot before truncation or overlap occurs in the crew display.


I do question if i need to cut down the size of the crew in the prototype. Various sources (which seem to vary) cite the crew compliment being 10 officers and 70 to 80 men. That number is *roughly* represented now, but again, sources vary. At any rate, I defnatly would not add anymore crewman. Two additinal columns (if one looks at the crew config as a spread sheet), is about all the game resolution will support.


I think it ends up being the same problem we had back in SH3 with the sensors, or the problem I've recently had with propulsion zones: SH4 isn't coded to handle duplicates of the same node.

Very true. For some reason i totally forgot about that in relation to crew nodes. This limitation is what really hurts the game in the long run. It limits our sonar choices (both active and passive) as well as radar. Some of the coolest technological features of fleet boats, i dont think the game can support.

[Observer]

Your screenshot shows exactly what I had in mind. Having gone down the path of adding compartments, once you exceed the screen width, the right hand compartment (deck watch) will move to the same area as the current DC team and the DC, DG, and AA will all move down. This works since the aft DG slot has not been used (or vice verse as the case may be). This looks like it's a default layout inherent to the menu_1024_768.ini. I've taken a look through here, but that file is not easy for me to work with to see if it's a hard code or something that can be tweaked.

I also notice that you've added an extra compartment to the UnitParts1Gato.upc. What do you have in mind for this compartment? I've had some ideas for this type of arrangement, but I've never really gotten it to work out quite the way I want. One thing I've thought about doing is turning it into an Aux Diesel room, or maybe a crew quarters, or maybe even the galley. BTW, the Aux Diesel room idea won't work because of a special zone problem (one to many zone reference can't be handled by SH4 without conflict).

Two other questions:
1. Have you ever gotten the signal ejector to work? I notice a valid load is flares, but it doesn't seem to work regardless of the loadout, including the "bubblegenerator".

[Ammunition 15]
ID=SignalFlare
NameDisplayable= Signal Flare
Type= AmmoDecoy
Subtype=FlareUS
AmmunitionIntervalOptionCurrent= NULL, NULL, 0
AmmunitionIntervalOptions1= 1941-01-01, 1946-12-31, 0
Volume= 0.125
PackSize=1

2. Do you have any use for a non-repairable bulkhead once it has been "destroyed"(I call it the "pressure hull" since that's what it's supposed to be, but it's quite possible to correct the text to be whatever for each and every compartment)?

I've got a few other things I've cooked up that could be of use, but still require much more testing before any type of release.

[Ducimus]

I also notice that you've added an extra compartment to the UnitParts1Gato.upc. What do you have in mind for this compartment?

I did? :-? I don't recall intentionally trying to create new compartments. Ive created new conning towers and the unitpart entries to support them, but i dont recall creating new compartments.


1. Have you ever gotten the signal ejector to work?

Anything in the way of "decoys" i havent looked at yet. I've been so focused on other things, i simply haven't had the time.



2. Do you have any use for a non-repairable bulkhead once it has been "destroyed"

Now that, is an interesting concept. I do like it, but im unsure how it will fit in the overall scheme of things in TM. What im thinkiing about here is my aircraft adjustments, the adjustments ive made to bombs, and other such erata. It could make the game entirely "too" deadly. So unrepairable bulkheads (pressurehull, and i really like this idea btw) is a design consideration id have to think long and hard about, and how i could better mesh it in to the overall design of the mod given the threats presented.

[Ducimus]

Just FYI, i figured out why crewman on the new nodes would disappear.

(To recreate this, all you have to do, is call GQ, crash dive, and advance TC to X32, then go back to X1 TC when submerged)

I forgot to set the Visibility tag on the crew instantiantion nodes from 0 to 1. :88)

[Observer]

I also notice that you've added an extra compartment to the UnitParts1Gato.upc. What do you have in mind for this compartment?
I did? :-? I don't recall intentionally trying to create new compartments. Ive created new conning towers and the unitpart entries to support them, but i dont recall creating new compartments.

Looking at your screenshot, when I've added compartments, they usually appear between the DG compartment and the AA gun compartment when I add them to the submarine UPC file (last compartment in the file). If I add them to the unitparts UPC then they will appear adjacent to the AA gun compartment similar to what is shown in your screenshot here:

http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/int_test_06.jpg

This may just be a conning tower configuration I've not played with to date especially since all of my time and testing has been with the early and middle conning tower configurations. If this is just something associated with the CT configuration then that means adding a compartment may not be practical given the screen layout limitations (or at least presumed screen layout limitations). It's a shame because I wanted to try to add a small compartment for something like a crews mess or crews quarters. I guess I'll have to think on this some more.

[Ducimus]

This may just be a conning tower configuration I've not played with to date especially since all of my time and testing has been with the early and middle conning tower configurations. If this is just something associated with the CT configuration

its the CT configuration. The extra box you see is a result of changes made in the uboat add on.

[LukeFF]

Observer,

The StatusActive lines determine whether or not a compartment is active by default. When set to No for any compartment other than the guns and the damage control team, any crewmen in that compartment will only perform maintenance duties and sleep.

The functional types tell the game what type of compartment it is. If we could somehow reverse-engineer this, we could tell the game to place men at the dive planes only when the boat is submerged, though that might be something only a code change could work out.

[Observer]

Observer,

The StatusActive lines determine whether or not a compartment is active by default. When set to No for any compartment other than the guns and the damage control team, any crewmen in that compartment will only perform maintenance duties and sleep.

The functional types tell the game what type of compartment it is. If we could somehow reverse-engineer this, we could tell the game to place men at the dive planes only when the boat is submerged, though that might be something only a code change could work out.
I know about the status active flag, and presume it is used to "turn off" the bridge watch compartment when the boat submerges (flag to "No"). This is similar to the flag used to switch between the diesel and electric motors when the boat submerges. This is presumably coded into the unit_submarine controller (or similar) with surfaced and submerged states based on depth.

The trick is that the control room compartment should always be set with status active = Yes. In other words, I don't think you want to change this to "No" because it will make all 3D crew members disappear, just like it does for the bridge, deck gun and AA gun. Not to mention I wouldn't know how to change the flag unless the functional type was set to that of the DG or the AA gun, and this wouldn't address the issue or stations being manned for various ship states.

I think the better way to do this, consistent with manning stations during surfaced or submerged conditions, would be to add a ship state controller to the applicable node, and set the node visibility based on the ship state. I've never tried this before so I'm not sure if it's possible, or if it would even work...it's just and idea. Thoughts?

It's been a long time, but I think the Christmas tree lights would be a good place to look for the states controllers because of the way the lights switch depending on the state of the boat. I remember this didn't work in earlier versions, so I fixed it, which then eventually got incorporated into one of the patches (at least if I recall correctly...I know it works now at least).

[Ducimus]

The Xmas tree and hull opening indicators in the CT ....

I dont remember exactly, but i think it had just two variables in its properties

-Color in RGB format
-Is surfaced (true/false)

And i think thats it. It struck me as more as an asthetic item, then a functional one. I also rememeber the panel in the CT, each light was handled individually with its own controller, while the Xmas tree is under one controller.

Ive always wondered if there could be more to this. I would really love to tie in those indicator lights with the torpedo tubes. I think i'll look into this further when i get home from work. One nice thing about the uboat expansion is some of the items from SH3 carried over inthe type 9 interior, so i have a base to work off from in understanding functionality.

The torpedo switchs work in the type9 interior, but.... not exactly how they should be, still, its an example to follow and try and recreate.

[Observer]

Is surfaced. That's the right controller for the state change. I've never tried to attach it to a node, but it is just a node after all. I'd think that controller with a visible state should do the trick.

[dean_acheson]

Duci,
thanks for working on this, I've wanted a more crowded CT for a long time.

[Rockin Robbins]

It's dean_acheson, the man who first shamed me into manual targeting. Thank you, but you're created a monster!:know:

[dean_acheson]

LOL at that!

And there I thought that RR had no shame. ;)