GWX for SH4

[scrapser]

GWX 2.1 has been released and they mention they are "well under way" on a project for SH4. Is there any initial information on what they will be doing to SH4? It would be nice to know if there's specific items they intend to fix or adjust for accuracy.

It's clear to me the developers had a lot planned for SH4 that was cut short or canceled thanks to UBISoft. Is there any plans or ability to "finish" SH4 by the GWX team? This is sorely needed and I'm sure would be greatly appreciated by everyone.

[Jaeger]

yes, it would be nice to know what they are doing. so other modders know, what will be done or what they could do. for example, if they try to mod the atlantic theatre, they neednt invent all the boats, because some german modders from the AOTD group are still working on it. when the modding scene wants to get the best results, they have to work together and they have to change their products...

thats why the gwx team should give the community information about their work.

[scrapser]

Well, I guess one good question is are they planning on giving the U.S. boats and Pacific theater a refit or just work on adding German boats and the Atlantic theater to SH4 by expanding on the 1.5 add-on? I for one would like to see the Pacific theater fixed as much as possible.

[ref]

yes, it would be nice to know what they are doing. so other modders know, what will be done or what they could do. for example, if they try to mod the atlantic theatre, they neednt invent all the boats, because some german modders from the AOTD group are still working on it. when the modding scene wants to get the best results, they have to work together and they have to change their products...

thats why the gwx team should give the community information about their work.

We were still tying up loose ropes with GWX 2.1, now that we've finished it we can devote our full team to sh4, so far we've been interchanging ideas on what's worth to be ported and how to optimize the game performance, given the new features of sh4 we can reduce the size of the sea folder without reducing the actual number of ships in game, and a lot of other stuff, we also need to build some tools to ease the campaign transfer as the GWX one is huge and doing it entirelly by hand could take months.
Same with the units itself, just replacing all the old sh3 controllers with the new sh4 ones is an insane amount of work, so I'm writing a program to automate as much as possible.

As for the player subs we need to evaluate if the existing models have the level of quality we want for GWX (no offense intended), I haven't seen the most recent work of the AOTD group so I can't judge it right now.
For the moment I've a type 7C almost finished, (I wanted to see with my own eyes what level of detail was needed) so I decided to make player sub as they are the most complex objects in game.

This pics are just a WIP, as I haven't finished the textures, and the oclusion map needs some more work too

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_011.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_010.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_009.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_008.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_007.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_005.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/comm2.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/comm1.jpg

Ref

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, I guess one good question is are they planning on giving the U.S. boats and Pacific theater a refit or just work on adding German boats and the Atlantic theater to SH4 by expanding on the 1.5 add-on? I for one would like to see the Pacific theater fixed as much as possible.

Scrapser, what part of the PTO do you need fixed? Fleet boats? If so, is there something wrong with TMO or RFB and the other assorted mods that do not fix the PTO? Is your concern more with the uboat in the PTO?

[cavvie]

The GW team never ceases to amaze me. A salute to you and all the modders out there who make the SH series the best it can be! :rock:

[ref]

Well, I guess one good question is are they planning on giving the U.S. boats and Pacific theater a refit or just work on adding German boats and the Atlantic theater to SH4 by expanding on the 1.5 add-on? I for one would like to see the Pacific theater fixed as much as possible.

GWX will focus on the atlantic theatre on sh4 as it did in sh3, we think that sh4 modders had made an oustanding work with SH4 and the PTO, and it would be foolish to work on something that it's already in capable hands.

Ref

[M. Sarsfield]

Ref,

Are you aware of skwasjer's recent upgrades to his silent editor tool? They would probably be a lot of help to you for importing.

[scrapser]

Well, I guess one good question is are they planning on giving the U.S. boats and Pacific theater a refit or just work on adding German boats and the Atlantic theater to SH4 by expanding on the 1.5 add-on? I for one would like to see the Pacific theater fixed as much as possible.

Scrapser, what part of the PTO do you need fixed? Fleet boats? If so, is there something wrong with TMO or RFB and the other assorted mods that do not fix the PTO? Is your concern more with the uboat in the PTO?

Sorry to be misunderstood. I'm not discounting what has already been done with TMO or RFB. Maybe I'm mis-informed but I thought a GWX mod would take everything that's been done so far, consolidate it, and add any additional modifications for realism where possible. Isn't that what was done with SH3?

Didn't GWX fix a lot of bugs in SH3 that were left behind in the stock release (like the radar on the snorkel always being damaged)? I thought something similar could be done with issues in SH4, too.

I've always thought of GWX as being a super-supermod.

[scrapser]

Well, I guess one good question is are they planning on giving the U.S. boats and Pacific theater a refit or just work on adding German boats and the Atlantic theater to SH4 by expanding on the 1.5 add-on? I for one would like to see the Pacific theater fixed as much as possible.

GWX will focus on the atlantic theatre on sh4 as it did in sh3, we think that sh4 modders had made an oustanding work with SH4 and the PTO, and it would be foolish to work on something that it's already in capable hands.

Ref

Okay...so correct me if I'm wrong. Would a GWX for SH4 result in having a sort of SH3/SH4 all in one?

[M. Sarsfield]

That was my impression. The end package would be an updated SH3 and SH4 joined together. Two teams can accomplish this, as it's playing out. I'm sure ideas will be swapped back and forth and it will be seamless in the end.

[ref]

Ref,

Are you aware of skwasjer's recent upgrades to his silent editor tool? They would probably be a lot of help to you for importing.

Yes, It's a fantastic tool, and I use it quite a bit to browse files although I'm more in the hex editing side, as there are still a lot of unknowns in the files I like to see the entire stuff when I'm changing something.
As for the importer I've just finished correcting a much basic one I've wrote a month or so ago to help DD to modify the interiors, If I'd now I would have waited, I'm not as good programmer as Skjwaster is, he's is much more intuitive, mine just deals with binary chunks so importing is made by hand.

Ref

[ref]

Maybe I'm mis-informed but I thought a GWX mod would take everything that's been done so far, consolidate it, and add any additional modifications for realism where possible. Isn't that what was done with SH3?

Didn't GWX fix a lot of bugs in SH3 that were left behind in the stock release (like the radar on the snorkel always being damaged)? I thought something similar could be done with issues in SH4, too.

I've always thought of GWX as being a super-supermod.

It started that way, no need to reinvent the wheel, but since v 2.0 most of the changes where made by the team, even the external mods where revised or adapted by a member of a team, to point an example we corrected the entire sea and submarine folder for reflection problems, another one was Sergbutos outstanding solution that forces the planes to make multiple attack runs, I used his idea and adapted to all the airplanes suited to that rol, as you see even if we use other people work/ideas there's still the need to integrate with the rest of the mod.
As for the second part if we encounter a problem that is shared by both theaters and found the solution of course we'll fix it and share it.

Ref

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, I guess one good question is are they planning on giving the U.S. boats and Pacific theater a refit or just work on adding German boats and the Atlantic theater to SH4 by expanding on the 1.5 add-on? I for one would like to see the Pacific theater fixed as much as possible.

Scrapser, what part of the PTO do you need fixed? Fleet boats? If so, is there something wrong with TMO or RFB and the other assorted mods that do not fix the PTO? Is your concern more with the uboat in the PTO?
Sorry to be misunderstood. I'm not discounting what has already been done with TMO or RFB. Maybe I'm mis-informed but I thought a GWX mod would take everything that's been done so far, consolidate it, and add any additional modifications for realism where possible. Isn't that what was done with SH3?

Didn't GWX fix a lot of bugs in SH3 that were left behind in the stock release (like the radar on the snorkel always being damaged)? I thought something similar could be done with issues in SH4, too.

I've always thought of GWX as being a super-supermod.


GWX is a super mod and did correct issues plus a whole crap load of other things. You will find that SH3 started just like SH4, bit mods here and there. Then these mods melded into a large mod package. GWX took off and created/polished a awesome mod for SH3. SH4 is following the same path but a bit different because SH4 is a PTO game with a uboat add on which opens the door to mod the ATO within SH4. Please look through the other mods on the SH4 forum, there are more than a handful of people who have been modding SH4 for over a year and it does not deal with the ATO at all. So, yes, you are a bit misinformed that GWX will take everything already done with SH4 and roll it up in a nice packaged. GWX has all the material they need from 2.5 years of working over SH3. I suspect that this knowledge will be rolled into SH4 for the ATO, but, will take some time as there are some differences between the two games and how they operate. I hope there is one thing that GWX can over come and it was no fault of their own. When GWX opened the Indian Ocean in SH3 they could not add map grids and renown was non-existent (from what I remember) it is like the Indian Ocean did not exist in SH3...in SH4 UBM, the map grid is there for the Indian Ocean but no grid in the Atlantic. I hope SH4 will recognize grids in the Atlantic. I play Operation Monsun and notice the map only has grids in the PTO/Indian Ocean area. Hopefully, Ref can confirm that the map grid issue in the Atlantic is a non-issue.


Read what Ref has to say about GWX and what they are looking to accomplish.

[bigboywooly]

TBH AVG it wouldnt matter if the KM grid was made of streetnames in SH4
The renown comes from you reaching the marker on the map
NOT reaching the KM grid

;)

All in the future anyway
2.1 is out so chill time in order methinks

[fireship4]

It would be great if RFB and GWX teams could work together, a sort of super super super mod if you will.

Information sharing and ideas and bigfixes etc.

[schuhart]

GWX will focus on the atlantic theatre on sh4 as it did in sh3, we think that sh4 modders had made an oustanding work with SH4 and the PTO, and it would be foolish to work on something that it's already in capable hands.

Ref

Best news for me this year and the only reason I just purchased SH4 and UBM :yep: :up:

- Schuhart

[Deimos01]

Looking forward to this one.:up:

Dont get me wrong, I love the PTO but there are many days when I miss my trusty old Type VIIC. Cant wait to get back in one. :rock:

[scrapser]

Wow...a German (ATO) version of SH4. You may be beating UBISoft to the punch. No need to develop SH5 and beyond unless they wanted to improve the game engine or something. Maybe one day UBISoft will release the source code to a select group of modders with a binding non-distribution agreement so they can really get their fingers in the pie.

This would enable the melding of both theaters into a single, global WW2 submarine simulator. What we all dream of in our sleep. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

TBH AVG it wouldnt matter if the KM grid was made of streetnames in SH4
The renown comes from you reaching the marker on the map
NOT reaching the KM grid

;)

All in the future anyway
2.1 is out so chill time in order methinks

I knew there was something funky(do not recall as I have played SH3 for quite sometime) with the grid system in SH3 when going outside the planned area of play as developed by UBI. So, a good grid systems as it was set up will work in the Atlantic waters in SH4?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Wow...a German (ATO) version of SH4. You may be beating UBISoft to the punch. No need to develop SH5 and beyond unless they wanted to improve the game engine or something. Maybe one day UBISoft will release the source code to a select group of modders with a binding non-distribution agreement so they can really get their fingers in the pie.

This would enable the melding of both theaters into a single, global WW2 submarine simulator. What we all dream of in our sleep. :up:

Believe me, mate. There is ALL KINDS OF POTENTIAL for SH5 beyond what is currently available. SH5 is going to be an open field for the Silent Hunter Devs... and I can hardly wait to see what they've got planned.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

TBH AVG it wouldnt matter if the KM grid was made of streetnames in SH4
The renown comes from you reaching the marker on the map
NOT reaching the KM grid

;)

All in the future anyway
2.1 is out so chill time in order methinks

I knew there was something funky(do not recall as I have played SH3 for quite sometime) with the grid system in SH3 when going outside the planned area of play as developed by UBI. So, a good grid systems as it was set up will work in the Atlantic waters in SH4?

In short... Yes it will work. IIRC, one of our exploratory / experimental GWX-SH4 development threads back in the Lair already has the matter sorted.

[misfitdreamer]

for those looking for a mod to "finish" sh4, a little while ago i proposed a mod to fine tune and solidify the game as it should've been when released. maybe this mod could work with the future GWX? check my posted threads.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

God those are sexy pics.

Ref is being quite humble as well... That VIIC is NOT from SH3. It is a total reconstruction with a higher LOD made for GWX-SH4. Even in its current state of excellence, Ref still considers it a WIP.

Take a bow Ref. :rock:

As for the player subs we need to evaluate if the existing models have the level of quality we want for GWX (no offense intended), I haven't seen the most recent work of the AOTD group so I can't judge it right now.
For the moment I've a type 7C almost finished, (I wanted to see with my own eyes what level of detail was needed) so I decided to make player sub as they are the most complex objects in game.

This pics are just a WIP, as I haven't finished the textures, and the oclusion map needs some more work too

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_011.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_010.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_009.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_008.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_007.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_005.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/comm2.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/comm1.jpg

Ref

[Penta]

Believe me, mate. There is ALL KINDS OF POTENTIAL for SH5 beyond what is currently available.

Such as...?

Really now, since UBM's out, lets start an SH5 wishlist.:)

A few from me:

1. The Canals.
2. Plotting map that doesn't let you run into small islands (ie, you have a crew with a sense of self-preservation).
3. The ability to abandon ship.
4. More moddability - some things that are hardcoded are very bizzare things to hardcode...If we want to go to the effort of adding new subs, let us add without having to replace.
5. Strategic Control for all sides.
6. The ability to rest on the bottom.
7. Make it harder to die by running aground. Please.
8. See #7. Seriously.
9. For the first days of war in Pacific: Dignitary evac. MacArthur, Quezon, and others were all evac'd by submarine. Idea here would be to go undetected as completely as possible.
10. Spy/troops extraction.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Really now, since UBM's out, lets start an SH5 wishlist.:)



Well, that would take things too far off topic I think, given that this thread is about implimentation on the SH4 platform.

Besides, I think some of those things can be addressed in SH4 in due time.

[M. Sarsfield]

11. All interiors modeled and accessible - maybe even below decks (i.e. batteries, pump room, storage compartments).
12. Moving machinery.
13. Card games (jk)

[AVGWarhawk]

TBH AVG it wouldnt matter if the KM grid was made of streetnames in SH4
The renown comes from you reaching the marker on the map
NOT reaching the KM grid

;)

All in the future anyway
2.1 is out so chill time in order methinks
I knew there was something funky(do not recall as I have played SH3 for quite sometime) with the grid system in SH3 when going outside the planned area of play as developed by UBI. So, a good grid systems as it was set up will work in the Atlantic waters in SH4?
In short... Yes it will work. IIRC, one of our exploratory / experimental GWX-SH4 development threads back in the Lair already has the matter sorted.


Very good! I ventured into the Indian Ocean (when I was not sunk on my second patrol that plaqued my crew quite often using GWX:oops:)...I used one of the IXB boats. Well, that is good news the grid system will work in the Atlantic Ocean.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

TBH AVG it wouldnt matter if the KM grid was made of streetnames in SH4
The renown comes from you reaching the marker on the map
NOT reaching the KM grid

;)

All in the future anyway
2.1 is out so chill time in order methinks
I knew there was something funky(do not recall as I have played SH3 for quite sometime) with the grid system in SH3 when going outside the planned area of play as developed by UBI. So, a good grid systems as it was set up will work in the Atlantic waters in SH4?
In short... Yes it will work. IIRC, one of our exploratory / experimental GWX-SH4 development threads back in the Lair already has the matter sorted.


Very good! I ventured into the Indian Ocean (when I was not sunk on my second patrol that plaqued my crew quite often using GWX:oops:)...I used one of the IXB boats. Well, that is good news the grid system will work in the Atlantic Ocean.

IIRC there may be some limitations concerning the strange shape of some KM grids... but nothing too terrible.

At the moment I don't want to say more concerning the grid system, to prevent making a false statement.:arrgh!:

[CaptainNemo]

Maybe the developers of GWX are interested in cooperation with our Aces of the Deep Community. We are working on a atlantic mod for a long time as you can see here:

http://www.aotd-flottille.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=8366

My e-mail is stephankrueger@hotmail.com

We would be pleased to receive a message.
Best regards, CaptainNemo

[ref]

Believe me, mate. There is ALL KINDS OF POTENTIAL for SH5 beyond what is currently available.

Such as...?

Really now, since UBM's out, lets start an SH5 wishlist.:)

A few from me:

1. The Canals.


With this one you're lucky, I've studied the changes in the terrain files, with a little change to my terrain extractor we'll be able to tweak the terrain as in sh3.
I'll port the canals/scapa mod in sh3 to sh4 as soon as I can, probably by next weekend I'll make a release FREE TO USE BY EVERYONE, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: .

Ref

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Believe me, mate. There is ALL KINDS OF POTENTIAL for SH5 beyond what is currently available.

Such as...?

Really now, since UBM's out, lets start an SH5 wishlist.:)

A few from me:

1. The Canals.


With this one you're lucky, I've studied the changes in the terrain files, with a little change to my terrain extractor we'll be able to tweak the terrain as in sh3.
I'll port the canals/scapa mod in sh3 to sh4 as soon as I can, probably by next weekend I'll make a release FREE TO USE BY EVERYONE, WITH NO EXCEPTIONS :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: .

Ref

COOL!!! :up: :up: :up:

...and so it begins. Liquid awesomeness redux! :rock:

[ref]

Maybe the developers of GWX are interested in cooperation with our Aces of the Deep Community. We are working on a atlantic mod for a long time as you can see here:

http://www.aotd-flottille.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=8366

My e-mail is stephankrueger@hotmail.com

We would be pleased to receive a message.
Best regards, CaptainNemo



I'm more or less up to my neck right now with RL work and for a couple of days but I'll be contacting you when I've more time.


Ref

[CaptainNemo]

Hi Ref! Great news! We will stay in contact!

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Type VIIC (very early) interior WIP by Ref w/animated obs scope.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV8AqWH9u5g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV8AqWH9u5g)

[lancerr]

That interior looks great! How are you walking around inside?

[ref]

That interior looks great! How are you walking around inside?

shift+f2

Ref

[LukeFF]

It would be great if RFB and GWX teams could work together, a sort of super super super mod if you will.

Don't count on it.

[Alex]

Type VIIC (very early) interior WIP by Ref w/animated obs scope.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV8AqWH9u5g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV8AqWH9u5g)

*smiles*

:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

It would be great if RFB and GWX teams could work together, a sort of super super super mod if you will.
Don't count on it. It's a totalitarian police state against a Western democracy. It's Microsoft against Linux. It's proprietary against open source. Can't work. No cooperation is possible there, only coexistence. They bring out the best and sometimes the worst. in each other. You should duck when they start trading 5" shells though. :arrgh!: It's all in good fun, they just can't stand each other.

But kids who believe in sharing their toys cannot play with kids who would hoard all the toys because in the end one kid ends up with it all and the other kid goes home to mommy emptyhanded. Let them play separately and they can both have fun.

[ref]

It would be great if RFB and GWX teams could work together, a sort of super super super mod if you will.
Don't count on it. It's a totalitarian police state against a Western democracy. It's Microsoft against Linux. It's proprietary against open source. Can't work. No cooperation is possible there, only coexistence. They bring out the best and sometimes the worst. in each other. You should duck when they start trading 5" shells though. :arrgh!: It's all in good fun, they just can't stand each other.

But kids who believe in sharing their toys cannot play with kids who would hoard all the toys because in the end one kid ends up with it all and the other kid goes home to mommy emptyhanded. Let them play separately and they can both have fun.

I really wish that english where my first language, but I'll give it a try.

What's wrong with having different ways to work and solve things?
We (GW Team) have a method of work that may not be the best (definetly not the most popular :lol: ), we like to cook things slowly, put all the small pieces together and only after carefull testing we release them as a hole package, we don't like to release small bits of things as we discover them, but when they are fully tested and as an integrated part of what we wan't to achieve with the game, we decide as a group what to do and what not to, what is worth releasing and what not, so what's the problem with that?, all modders here do the same, they are not advertising what are they methods or secrets before they release a mod, the difference is that as we are working on a larger scale our development times are larger, so it'll seem that we're holding back information, in the long run our only intention is to be able to play the game as we like, and judging by the results with over 20000 downloads of our work we're not that much out of target.
To finalize neither the sh4 modding comunity is a perfect model of a western democracy, nor we are a totalitarian police.... we just have different ways to see things, nothing wrong with that.

Ref

[clayton]

I think we are going to try this time. I think we are going to start getting along and see what happens. Nothing happens overnight, so my vote is that we not dwell on the negative just yet.

Lets see what happens...

[gAiNiAc]

SH5........

Liberty.........

Shore Patrol............

Olongapo......

Magsaysay Blvd........

Frogmen.........

[FloydRoses]

For, AOTD clan and GWX team.
Good luck and good work guys.:p
We all awayting for your pieces of works.:up:

[Rockin Robbins]

It would be great if RFB and GWX teams could work together, a sort of super super super mod if you will.
Don't count on it. It's a totalitarian police state against a Western democracy. It's Microsoft against Linux. It's proprietary against open source. Can't work. No cooperation is possible there, only coexistence. They bring out the best and sometimes the worst. in each other. You should duck when they start trading 5" shells though. :arrgh!: It's all in good fun, they just can't stand each other.

But kids who believe in sharing their toys cannot play with kids who would hoard all the toys because in the end one kid ends up with it all and the other kid goes home to mommy emptyhanded. Let them play separately and they can both have fun.
I really wish that english where my first language, but I'll give it a try.

What's wrong with having different ways to work and solve things?... we just have different ways to see things, nothing wrong with that.

Ref
*looks up, down, left and right* I think I just said that.:hmm: When GWX decides to share their toys like the rest of the SH4 modders they can join the modding community. Otherwise, they are valuable not for their support of the modding community, because they do not, but only for whatever products they release.

As a member of GWX, you are not free to cooperate with a SH4 modder or modders and let them use GWX tools to produce something helpful in their project. Neither will the SH4 modders, knowing any sharing is one way only, and will benefit only GWX, "share" because they dare not. "Share" means different things to the two communities.

No, the cultures are incompatible. Both are capable of producing quality. GWX quality benefits players, but freezes out the modding community, unless they are willing to join the collective. Members of the collective are not free to let outsiders use GWX toys. It is the will of one man, upon whom it depends for its very existence. If Kpt Lehmann takes up a new hobby (perhaps producing avatars and environments for IMVU :rotfl:) GWX is toast, just as Communism collapsed after the deaths of the old guard from the revolution.

The SH4 model benefits players, offering them more choices, and builds a stong modding community with independent individuals making cooperative but not directed choices, making their tools available to all. It is a stronger organization, able to weather even the death of its leading modder to emerge stronger than before. It appears not as efficient, and must be admitted to have some defects and inefficiencies. Its strength is that it celebrates the independence of the individual and effectively uses coopetition (Darrell Waltrip: ingenius linguist!:rotfl:) to improve all members. It is an open society which shares tools and methods freely to benefit the entire modding community.

It is just like the cold war where the Communists redefined all the terms. Negotiating for "peace" was a joke because the Commies had just redefined the term as "a condition where there was nobody else left to interfere with world socialism." We were negotiating for coexistence, they were negotiating for domination." Every negotiation depended on western concession to "grease the skids" before there could even be a talk. Then the talk would be much chest beating and threatening and nothing accomplished. Before Reagan had the guts to walk away from Reykjavik and basically said, "You want an arms race? Let's boogie!" they had it all their way.

Those two cultures cannot cooperate. It would be mixing diesel fuel and fertilizer. BOOM! Better to let the fertilizer grow plants and the diesel fuel deliver them to hungry people.

Coexistence is possible. Cooperation by normally understood English language terms is not.

[Bewolf]

I may be wrong here, but to my understanding actually sharing everything, everythings belongs to everybody, is communism, and keeping what is yours is democratic capitalism. So the comparisons here are not "exactly" correct. Actually, they are completly reversed ;)

Just a lil wise assing in between, hehe :know:

[ryoga_77]

I'm kinda stumped here.If the GWX team plans to port the Atlantic war over to SH4 i don't see any harm so long as the pacific side of the war can still be accessed or modded.I'm no modder and ignorant of the workings of SH4 but the best solution would be for a co-existence of GWX and the rest so that nobody steps on the other's toes.Failing that i guess someone down the line will make a mix 'n match mega mod for SH4 to cater for those who want the best of both worlds.

** cough ....Carotio**

I enjoy both GWX and Sh4 (Run Silent Run Deep,ROW) and this is just my 2 cents on the issue.

[Rockin Robbins]

I may be wrong here, but to my understanding actually sharing everything is communism, and keeping what is yours is capitalism. So the comparisons here are kinda reversed to their original meaning.

Just a lil wise assing in between, hehe :know:
No, they are reversed from their Marxist/socialist dialectical definitions. Did Nikita Khrushchev share his western limo, mansions and lavish lifestyle with the poverty stricken masses? Did Stalin use the productive members of his society or kill millions and imprison millions of them? When Soviet prisoners of war returned from captivity in Germany, they were not celebrated, but murdered. The only thing communism shares is misery while the oligarchy at the top revels in their very temporary power and luxury, held only at the points of many guns. The only ones to benefit are the gangsters at the top. Al Capone would have been proud.

The Romanian dev team would have been impossible under their former communist dictatorship: one of the harshest of the lot. Now, freed to be individuals, voluntarily contributing and being paid for their benefit to the world they can finally share their talents, under that unjust capitalistic system where they can actually keep some of what they have earned for their valuable contribution. Communism cannot work because it ignores the central truth of humanity, Excellence is ALWAYS voluntary. That's my quote. Nobody else says that. Somebody play Finlandia!:up:

[ref]

Rocking, you're talking without having a clue of what you're talking about, just because Kpt Lehman is the most visible face of the team it doesn't mean that he call all the decitions, what happens is that in more than one time he jumped in to defend one of us or take the heat for a choice we make as a group.

In any case what are you? advisor for JFK? not every democracy is good nor all comunist movements are bad, It's getting quite annoying be called a comunist or dictator by you, if you wish to continue the political ideology discussion please do so in the general topics part of the forum not in a modding one.
I have contributed more to the modding comunity both as an individual and a member of GW than you ever will, , so please stop insulting....

Ref

[DrBeast]

DANISH SUMO-WRESTLERS NEEDED, STAT! :rotfl:

[Bewolf]

I may be wrong here, but to my understanding actually sharing everything is communism, and keeping what is yours is capitalism. So the comparisons here are kinda reversed to their original meaning.

Just a lil wise assing in between, hehe :know:
No, they are reversed from their Marxist/socialist dialectical definitions. Did Nikita Khrushchev share his western limo, mansions and lavish lifestyle with the poverty stricken masses? Did Stalin use the productive members of his society or kill millions and imprison millions of them? When Soviet prisoners of war returned from captivity in Germany, they were not celebrated, but murdered. The only thing communism shares is misery while the oligarchy at the top revels in their very temporary power and luxury, held only at the points of many guns. The only ones to benefit are the gangsters at the top. Al Capone would have been proud.

The Romanian dev team would have been impossible under their former communist dictatorship: one of the harshest of the lot. Now, freed to be individuals, voluntarily contributing and being paid for their benefit to the world they can finally share their talents, under that unjust capitalistic system where they can actually keep some of what they have earned for their valuable contribution. Communism cannot work because it ignores the central truth of humanity, Excellence is ALWAYS voluntary. That's my quote. Nobody else says that. Somebody play Finlandia!:up:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but:

com·mu·nism

1.
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

2.
a. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
b. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat.



As you can see, your explaination only fits #2, and not it's basic, original meaning.
For a moment I thought you wanted to put the GWX team onto one level with the Soviet Union, a pretty offensive and plain incorrect comparison. You may want to clarify what and who you mean when you throw your parables around to showcase your agenda, because I am sure you don't want to confuse or insult anybody? :hmm:

Oooh. Before I forget, you also may want to check up the concept of "intellectual propperty", a basic and very important pinciple in the western, democratic and captialism based system. Because, you may have noticed or not, capitalism is not about sharing stuff for free, including ideas.

Not that I don't support your basic believe in a modding community being about sharing ideas and supporting each other unconditionally. But that idea is much closer to the basics of communism then that of democracy based capitalism. Get your facts straight. :up:

[bigboywooly]

I have posted more than once in response for help in the SH4 forums
Considering I dont actually play SH4 thats not to shabby
more than others I could mention that do play

Just because you dont see something in the forums doesnt mean it doesnt go on via PM and email
And not all goes on in this forum - there are others

As regards tools
Is the SH3 terrain editor not free to all to use ?
Isnt that Refs :hmm:
Hasnt he already said a version for SH4 will be done when he has time AND released for all to use ?

Lots of ppl write programs for themselves to aid things while modding
I can think of 4\5 ppl offhand who have told me they use such programs - all non GWX members and I dont see any of those tools anywhere for D\L
They are not all up release standards but they do the job
Why release it and spend forever answering questions about it as not finished
Time is a precious thing you dont get back

And I guess its probably fair to say that any proper adaptation of SH4 for the ATO will not be compatable with the PTO
Too many shared files
Change one for the ATO and impacts on the PTO
Voices is a quick and easy example

[Jimbuna]

It would be great if RFB and GWX teams could work together, a sort of super super super mod if you will.
Don't count on it. It's a totalitarian police state against a Western democracy. It's Microsoft against Linux. It's proprietary against open source. Can't work. No cooperation is possible there, only coexistence. They bring out the best and sometimes the worst. in each other. You should duck when they start trading 5" shells though. :arrgh!: It's all in good fun, they just can't stand each other.

But kids who believe in sharing their toys cannot play with kids who would hoard all the toys because in the end one kid ends up with it all and the other kid goes home to mommy emptyhanded. Let them play separately and they can both have fun.
I really wish that english where my first language, but I'll give it a try.

What's wrong with having different ways to work and solve things?... we just have different ways to see things, nothing wrong with that.

Ref
*looks up, down, left and right* I think I just said that.:hmm: When GWX decides to share their toys like the rest of the SH4 modders they can join the modding community. Otherwise, they are valuable not for their support of the modding community, because they do not, but only for whatever products they release.

As a member of GWX, you are not free to cooperate with a SH4 modder or modders and let them use GWX tools to produce something helpful in their project. Neither will the SH4 modders, knowing any sharing is one way only, and will benefit only GWX, "share" because they dare not. "Share" means different things to the two communities.

No, the cultures are incompatible. Both are capable of producing quality. GWX quality benefits players, but freezes out the modding community, unless they are willing to join the collective. Members of the collective are not free to let outsiders use GWX toys. It is the will of one man, upon whom it depends for its very existence. If Kpt Lehmann takes up a new hobby (perhaps producing avatars and environments for IMVU :rotfl:) GWX is toast, just as Communism collapsed after the deaths of the old guard from the revolution.

The SH4 model benefits players, offering them more choices, and builds a stong modding community with independent individuals making cooperative but not directed choices, making their tools available to all. It is a stronger organization, able to weather even the death of its leading modder to emerge stronger than before. It appears not as efficient, and must be admitted to have some defects and inefficiencies. Its strength is that it celebrates the independence of the individual and effectively uses coopetition (Darrell Waltrip: ingenius linguist!:rotfl:) to improve all members. It is an open society which shares tools and methods freely to benefit the entire modding community.

It is just like the cold war where the Communists redefined all the terms. Negotiating for "peace" was a joke because the Commies had just redefined the term as "a condition where there was nobody else left to interfere with world socialism." We were negotiating for coexistence, they were negotiating for domination." Every negotiation depended on western concession to "grease the skids" before there could even be a talk. Then the talk would be much chest beating and threatening and nothing accomplished. Before Reagan had the guts to walk away from Reykjavik and basically said, "You want an arms race? Let's boogie!" they had it all their way.

Those two cultures cannot cooperate. It would be mixing diesel fuel and fertilizer. BOOM! Better to let the fertilizer grow plants and the diesel fuel deliver them to hungry people.

Coexistence is possible. Cooperation by normally understood English language terms is not.

Crikey RR http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img231/1076/shockedvi8.gif

You've been reading and believing everything in that Harry Potter book: The Philosophers Stone again http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

Lighten up mate....after all it's just a game http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/img524/7923/noop0.gif

My metres starting to go off the scale http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6036/bsmeterzd3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Dowly]

http://imgcash4.imageshack.us/img144/5103/****metermh9.gif
http://www.seomoz.org/images/upload/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg

:rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

I have a headache. Be good and play nice all.

[Dowly]

I have a headache. Be good and play nice all.

Go take an aspirin and let us fight! :lol:

[DrBeast]

I have a headache. Be good and play nice all.
Go take an aspirin and let us fight! :lol:
Whoops...there goes your milk and cookies! :rotfl:

AVG: I have a whole stash of painkillers here at the lab...pure form and all. Want me to send some over to ya? :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Actually, I'm reading todays local news and world news. It is making much more sense. My headache is slowly fading as a result.

[DrBeast]

*DrBeast sends AVGWarhawk a keg of Guinness

That'll take care of yer headache for good. Consider it a parting gift for my vacations. Two weeks away from you guys...I'm gonna miss this place!

[Dowly]

I have a headache. Be good and play nice all.
Go take an aspirin and let us fight! :lol:
Whoops...there goes your milk and cookies! :rotfl:

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/Finnish_Ferret/Achmed.jpg :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

*DrBeast sends AVGWarhawk a keg of Guinness

That'll take care of yer headache for good. Consider it a parting gift for my vacations. Two weeks away from you guys...I'm gonna miss this place!

Can I change the Guinness for Johnny Walker Blue? I got to have my scotch...no matter the cost. :smug:

[Carotio]

I'll add a few things in this discussion, as I see it develops into the wrong direction.

Some GWX team members have an issue with me regarding the permission thingy.
However, last autumn I was contacted by privateer asking why not just start fresh. I was delighted and happy for this move. And I think more should just forget about past issues, because it eats you up, and puts you in worse mood, and ultimately you may write posts, which you regret later.

That said, I would like to remind you that TheRealPotoro aka Potoro has created MultiSH4. Meaning if GWX team members create an Atlantic based and focused SH4, then have this as one installation using MultiSH4 and then try it. On the other hand, if a few or a larger number wishes to make changes to this in a more fair gameplay (=less realistic aka casual play), GWX team members should also be more openminded to help out and accept releases of said tweaks without feeling offended.

Don't forget that there's more in life than games and modding. I'm going to visit my family and see my new-born nephew now. Have a nice weekend to all of you :up:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Consider it a parting gift for my vacations. Two weeks away from you guys...I'm gonna miss this place!

That's great news.....

for us :p

j\k, enjoy yourself :yep: Mine will be a little later on this summer.


RDP

[swdw]

Didn't GWX fix a lot of bugs in SH3 that were left behind in the stock release (like the radar on the snorkel always being damaged)? I thought something similar could be done with issues in SH4, too.
The reason AVG posted what he did, is this shows a complete lack of understanding of the scope of TMO and RFB. They don't just add new features, they fix a list of bugs and issues so long, I'm not going to list them all here.

Besides their own innovations/changes/fixes, they also combine a HUGE number of mini mods which have been tweaked into one cohesive mod that allows everything to work together seamlessly.

You'd get a more informative responses if you actually listed bugs you knew about that you're wanting to know if they've been fixed. Not meaning to be "persnickity", but GWX isn't the only group capable of fixing bugs.;) In fact, there are a number of fixes and enhancements being done to the U-boats in RFB.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, try reading through all of the changes, fixes, and mods listed in this thread that have been implemented in various parts of RFB. And keep in mind this post is the "Reader's Digest condensed version". These are only the changes through the 1.4 version. 1.5 changes will be listed with the 1.5 release.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=125529

The list for TMO is actually longer because of the scope of the mod.:huh:

If lurker posted a write up of things he's fixed through his campaign mods, it'd be PAGES.:doh:


Maybe if GWX fans didn't make posts that show:
1. They assume no one else is capable of fixing anything but GWX,
2. They haven't even bothered to actually look into the major SH4 mods to see what's been done (see #1)
3. Little to no respect for all the hard work already done by SH4 modders (see #1)

they wouldn't cause a thread to erupt like this one did.:nope:

And BTW for those not modding. Although ref's posts seem to show an "open arms" approach, GWX has not approached any major SH4 modder about cooperation. In contrast, the AOTD guys have been very forthcoming and helpful since their announcement. They even posted an old fix that had been misplaced for everyone outside of AOTD to use . Makes you wonder . . . :hmm:

[ref]

GWX team members should also be more openminded to help out and accept releases of said tweaks without feeling offended.

First of all I think it's a good thing to put old things aside and start fresh, regarding to this particular frase (not personal on you Carotio, but as you brought it to light I wan't to comment on this), we never had problems with tweaks to our mod 8given proper credit, not much to ask if you consider the amount of man hours we put for free in it), either to make it easier or harder or whichever the modder wants to do, what most people don't understand is the complexity of GWX, a small and apparently inocent change in a file could affect gameplay in ways you don't expect, that's one of the reasons we take so long to release something, ie 2.1 upgrade (beeing a minor one) tooked about two months to develop and three or so of testing, even working that way there are a number of bugs that slip away, as we try to take care of all "customers" problems we don't wan't to add other's bugs to our own to deal with, that's why when we see a mod released that could potentially cause problems post a statement that's not officialy supported by GW team and coud break gameplay, otherwhise we get (and has happened, believe me) a thousand complains of GWX crashing or not working and when we digg into the matter found that it was an apparently harmless mod.
I don't deny we had problems in the past with some people (some of which emigrated here), but, to all I beg you please take a good read to the entire threads where our team members post here in the sh4 forum, and decide for yourselves WHO starts the flame wars in your "peacefull" mods section...

Ref

[DrBeast]

Consider it a parting gift for my vacations. Two weeks away from you guys...I'm gonna miss this place!
That's great news.....

for us :p

j\k, enjoy yourself :yep: Mine will be a little later on this summer.


RDP

Oh, this is my Easter vacations. I don't even DARE to think of the summer vacations...2 MONTHS without a computer and internet...WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

*DrBeast hands a bottle Of Johnny Blue to AVG, gives the keg of Guinness to RDP, and then puts the thread back on its track, hoping no violent collisions will occur

[danlisa]

*** Danlisa smacks up AVG & DrBeast something silly for posting off topic ***

In Fact there is only a few posts within this thread that are still on topic. Perhaps a moderator might like to clean it up a little.....again.:yep:

[bigboywooly]

If lurker posted a write up of things he's fixed through his campaign mods, it'd be PAGES.:doh:

As would they all if everyone noted every single change
Blanket changelogs cover the vast majority of alterations

Maybe if GWX fans didn't make posts that show:
1. They assume no one else is capable of fixing anything but GWX,

Show me one post that states that

2. They haven't even bothered to actually look into the major SH4 mods to see what's been done (see #1)

How do you know what we have looked at and not
From my own POV I would rather NOT lookinto any SH4 mods then cant be accused of stealing - we all have ideas and surprisingly enough some are the same

3. Little to no respect for all the hard work already done by SH4 modders (see #1)

Again how would you know
And see reply to 2

they wouldn't cause a thread to erupt like this one did.:nope:

I suggest you reread the thread
Went south due to comments from LukeFF http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=841176&postcount=41
and Rocking Robbins
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=841233&postcount=43

And BTW for those not modding. Although ref's posts seem to show an "open arms" approach, GWX has not approached any major SH4 modder about cooperation.

SH4 modders as a whole are interested in the PTO
The " major " modders certainly are
GWX isnt
Why co operate in an area we are not heading into

Besides why go where we are not wanted

:hmm:

In yellow

[Digital_Trucker]

http://209.85.12.227/1396/109/emo/lalala.gif

Seriously, hasn't it been beaten to death enough?

[Rockin Robbins]

Rocking, you're talking without having a clue of what you're talking about, just because Kpt Lehman is the most visible face of the team it doesn't mean that he call all the decitions, what happens is that in more than one time he jumped in to defend one of us or take the heat for a choice we make as a group.

In any case what are you? advisor for JFK? not every democracy is good nor all comunist movements are bad, It's getting quite annoying be called a comunist or dictator by you, if you wish to continue the political ideology discussion please do so in the general topics part of the forum not in a modding one.
I have contributed more to the modding comunity both as an individual and a member of GW than you ever will, , so please stop insulting....

Ref

Sorry ref, it's an analogy, and an imperfect one, as all analogies are. I'm not calling anyone a communist here. I am only drawing a parallel between their redefining of terms and the different way the two groups throw the same words around, but mean different things. It happens a lot, where words are exchanged and communication does not take place.

But I am not calling GWX a communist organization or even a communist sympathizer. I haven't seen a single GWXer wearing a Che t-shirt.:doh: If anything, GWX has a corporate model and derives a part of its effectiveness from that. I happen to be a big fan of corporations, so long as they are honest and good citizens.

I'm not attacking anyone. I am just saying that the two ways of getting things done cannot be joined. Please do not mistake me for Ducimus here.:arrgh!:

[Rockin Robbins]

I have posted more than once in response for help in the SH4 forums
Considering I dont actually play SH4 thats not to shabby
more than others I could mention that do play

Just because you dont see something in the forums doesnt mean it doesnt go on via PM and email
And not all goes on in this forum - there are others

As regards tools
Is the SH3 terrain editor not free to all to use ?
Isnt that Refs :hmm:
Hasnt he already said a version for SH4 will be done when he has time AND released for all to use ?

Lots of ppl write programs for themselves to aid things while modding
I can think of 4\5 ppl offhand who have told me they use such programs - all non GWX members and I dont see any of those tools anywhere for D\L
They are not all up release standards but they do the job
Why release it and spend forever answering questions about it as not finished
Time is a precious thing you dont get back

And I guess its probably fair to say that any proper adaptation of SH4 for the ATO will not be compatable with the PTO
Too many shared files
Change one for the ATO and impacts on the PTO
Voices is a quick and easy example
Not being involved in either side of this, I am perfectly happy to be proved wrong by the future actions of both parties. Nobody should feel bound by the past when the past is a lousy example for a good future. If you and ref are correct regarding GWX's position we have a great future to look forward to.

Building trust will take time, but if pursued in good faith by most, it is inevitable. Right now we seem to have two sides who, while they don't see a way to cooperate, can surely coexist without attacking each other.

[skwasjer]

People, this is getting really boring... Use your energy on something productive... :shifty:

[Rockin Robbins]

Crikey RR http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img231/1076/shockedvi8.gif

You've been reading and believing everything in that Harry Potter book: The Philosophers Stone again http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

Lighten up mate....after all it's just a game http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/img524/7923/noop0.gif

My metres starting to go off the scale http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6036/bsmeterzd3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: That's great stuff there! I do have an unfortunate tendency to swat flies with concrete blocks. But you'll find I'm not particularly offensive about it.

By the way, let me give a shout out to Dowly, the author of the Pearl Harbor Menu 1.0, what I think is the most important mood-setter for the Pacific war yet released. I don't know why it never gets any attention, but it is magnificent! If he is an evil U-Boater, why did he make such a great contribution in the Pacific? hmmmmmmmmm? Hat's off for a great mod by a great modder!:up:

[melnibonian]

Seriously guys I just can't see what the problem is. There is an expansion on SH4 that includes U-Boats and we are interested in using it and using the game engine of SH4 to create the kind of experience we like in the U-Boat Front. Others like playing in the Pacific using the same game engine but with US Submarines. Both views are fine. We don't have any problem with what other people do and I really don't understand what is the problem with what we said we are going to do in the future. All this mess for what? It was just a statement of intention from the GWX Team that one day we will use SH4 to set up a SuperMod and all hell broke loose. Imagine what will happen when we do make the mod. :doh:

Guys you need to stay a bit calm about all this. First of all it's just a game so no need to get worked up for something so trivial like this. Second So what if GWX is not working with other moders. Each can do whatever he (or she) likes. Each can chose his partners and the people he can and want to work with. The GWX Team never said anything about other people's approach to the game. We make a game the way we like to play and the way we enjoy it. If people like it great and Thank you very much. If people don't like it well what can we do, we did try but we will enjoy it because this is the kind of game we like to play. Nobody forces anyone to play our mod and nobody forces anyone to follow our way of thinking. The situation is very clear: If you like GWX go ahead and enjoy it. If you don't like GWX you have three options:
1. You tell us (with examples and in a reasonable manner) what is that you don't like and we might fix it (if we think you have a point or if it is possible).
2. You alter the core GWX files to suit your kind of play. Again if you approach us in a reasonable manner most probably you will get a lot of help in this attempt.
3. You throw GWX to the rubbish bin and you play the mod(s) of your choice.
It is that simple.

Now based on the fact that we continue this argument it means that either the GWX Team is trying to score some points or that some people cannot accept reality. Let me elaborate on this: Why should the GWX Team try to score points? Each version of GWX has more downloads (individually) than all the other mods combined. Just based on statistics you can see that the majority of SubSim and SH users chose freely (trust me nobody puts a gun on their heads) GWX as their mod of choice. From this you can come to the conclusion that either the GWX Team has done a "decent job" (I would have said great but let's not push it for now) or all these people are manipulated and cannot see the truth that GWX is a crappy product. Somehow I don't really get the argument of "mass manipulation". If I could manipulate the masses I would have made loads of money and I wouldn't be here arguing these points with you guys.

[bigboywooly]

Thought you were leaving the country Koffi :hmm:

Dont you have some packing to do

:rotfl:

[melnibonian]

Thought you were leaving the country Koffi :hmm:

Dont you have some packing to do

:rotfl:
I am leaving it's true but i can't go without a BANG ;) :p :rotfl:

Now back to do some packing :cry:

[ref]

Maybe if GWX fans didn't make posts that show:
1. They assume no one else is capable of fixing anything but GWX,
2. They haven't even bothered to actually look into the major SH4 mods to see what's been done (see #1)
3. Little to no respect for all the hard work already done by SH4 modders (see #1)

You have a point there, but we do not control the "fans" as you call them, we only are responsible here for the mod we make and our comments, don't be confused, not everyone with a GWX pic on the signature are team members.
1. GWX team don't assume is the only capable of fixing things, proof of that is that we asked other modders premission to use their work in our mod in our mod.
2. Why do you think that? there's a lot of excellent work made by sh4 modders, but as we're going to focus in the Atlantic theatre there's little we can use except for environmental mods.
3. Again when do we (GWX team) show disrespect for SH4 modders (in general, there are a couple for which I don't have the slightest respect at all, but that's a personal matter), please be concrete and post some links to GWX team members started posts diminishing SH4 modders.

@Skjwaster, I now that it's a bit boring and redundant, but as we are here to stay, whoever likes it or not, I think it's better to release all our angers and dislikes in one single thread an then let it all behind.

Ref

[Jimbuna]

Thought you were leaving the country Koffi :hmm:

Dont you have some packing to do

:rotfl:
I am leaving it's true but i can't go without a BANG ;) :p :rotfl:

Now back to do some packing :cry:

Don't forget your hat http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img412/4774/thumbsuplargeon1.gif

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/2074/unhelmetex4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Jimbuna]

Crikey RR http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img231/1076/shockedvi8.gif

You've been reading and believing everything in that Harry Potter book: The Philosophers Stone again http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/read2.gif

Lighten up mate....after all it's just a game http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/img524/7923/noop0.gif

My metres starting to go off the scale http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6036/bsmeterzd3.gif (http://imageshack.us)

:rotfl: :rotfl: That's great stuff there! I do have an unfortunate tendency to swat flies with concrete blocks. But you'll find I'm not particularly offensive about it.

By the way, let me give a shout out to Dowly, the author of the Pearl Harbor Menu 1.0, what I think is the most important mood-setter for the Pacific war yet released. I don't know why it never gets any attention, but it is magnificent! If he is an evil U-Boater, why did he make such a great contribution in the Pacific? hmmmmmmmmm? Hat's off for a great mod by a great modder!:up:

Pah! concrete blocks.....try an MP5, you get a lot more bang for the buck http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6049/weaponso0o07qhy9zv2.gif

It's always a pleasure to interract with reasonable and rational folk here http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img91/817/ideaps5.gif

Just a little word if I may......keep a watchful eye out http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img144/9677/eyes0153fqgl6.gif and I reckon you'll soon come to the conclusion that the GWX Team only respond when provoked. I'm sure that is a right all of our American cousins hold most dear in their democracy.

Have a beer matey http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/c_jane24/Smileys/lager.gif

The rums mine


http://www.abfnet.com/forum/images/smilies/pirate_with_bottle_of_rum_lg_blk.gif

[CaptainNemo]

We should concentrate on our motivation to create a great submarine simulation.We all should work together so that we can enjoy our hobby. I cannot understand why people are "flaming" each other. There is no advantage in "flaming" just the loss of time. And time is what we need to finish our work.

Why do we mod? First of all we would like to have changes in the actual submarine simulation. Mostly this changes are based on individual desires or the supposition that some details of the sim could be different maybe better.

More over we want to share our work with the community where we think that these changes finds support.

The result is that the intention of the modders and community are one and the same: To enjoy a great subsim!

So lets back get to work..

Our boats are waiting in the drydock..;)

See you at or below the sea!

Your CaptainNemo

PS: Sorry for my bad english . .

[melnibonian]

Don't forget your hat http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img412/4774/thumbsuplargeon1.gif

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/2074/unhelmetex4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The way this thread is going it will probably be needed ;) :up:

[bigboywooly]

Nothing wrong with your English CaptainNemo
A lot better than my German

Yes
Lets crack on
I have a mission to take photos of Scapa and Bdu waits for no man

:rock:

[cavvie]

I'm a fan of both SH3 & SH4. I'm not playing SH3 right now because I just bought 4 and I don't have the time to get 3 running on VISTA at the moment. When i do get back to 3, I'm sure GWX will be the first mod I download.

My perspective is one of somebody who doesn't mod at all, but attitude has always been that for some reason or another these people (modders) have an interesting in taking ridiculous amounts of to make SH better and they do it only in exchange for a "thanks" and sometimes less than that. Furthremore, they even offer support for their mods, countenancing peoples complaints about how their gratis improvement of the game isn't working or "should" be better.

I have nothing but humilty and respect towards modders. I do have be preferences; I don't play the things I don't care for and I keep my mouth shut. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I also modded, but at the risk of sounding like a hippie, "can't we all just get along?"

[Rockin Robbins]

[3. Again when do we (GWX team) show disrespect for SH4 modders (in general, there are a couple for which I don't have the slightest respect at all, but that's a personal matter), please be concrete and post some links to GWX team members started posts diminishing SH4 modders.Ref

Please, I suggest nobody do that. If what we see here from ref, Carotio, Bigboywooly, melnibolian, jimbuna and the rest of the swarm here represents the true position of GWX, future cooperation is not impossible. I am speaking from a position of not knowing (or caring) whether these examples exist. But especially if they do, we need to build up, not tear down.

But then I have a very thick skin. Some are not blessed with that and we may have to ignore some renegades from both camps. Smoke peace* pipe?

*Peace, for the purposes of this post, is defined as an atmosphere of mutual good will which seeks to minimize differences of opinion and modes of operation while competing in a cooperative way to make the capabilities of both groups the best they can be. Most people tolerate this well. However a few will encounter side effects such as upset stomach, headaches, nausea, trembling, convulsions, heart attack and death, just like a sugar pill. If you encounter any of these symptoms, please discontinue peace and consult Onkel Neal.

[Fincuan]

I have a mission to take photos of Scapa and Bdu waits for no man

:rock:

So you did get the order from Bdu and not ComSubPac anymore? :lol:

[Sub Sailor]

I am sure some of you will say this is some old man who resist change. Well it is not the case at all.
I bought SH4 spent quite a bit of my money to upgrade my system so I could run it. It is a great sim and I enjoy it very much. I was and remain a big fan of SHCE/SH1. I always hoped there with be a new or even a replacement for SH!. What I did not buy was another U-Boat sim, but apparently any improvements to SH4 will only be in the form of German Boats and missions. Why can't there be improvements to the original SH4, and yes I have patch 1.4. There are already 3 U-Boat sims. I must be out of step wanting to play U.S. Submarines.
This is a very big disappointment to me. I entered the Navy in 1958 an served on Nuclear Subs for many years, I was influenced by the Co's and Chiefs that had served in the boats in WWII, they were OUR inspiration and OUR model, we wanted to be as good as they were. I believe we took this example with us as we fought the "Cold War", and no we did not sink enemy ships we gathered a hell of a lot of intelligence that made a difference. People say we won the Cold War and now we are on the eve of another one with China, I hope the present day "Brothers Of the Dolphins" take us as there role model and have the same success as we did.
Please let's show some fair play and work on improvement's for SH4. I am not attacking U-Boat sims, I just want to play my country's subs.

Thanks,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[Rockin Robbins]

Worry not, Sub Sailor, the Pacfiic and Fleet Boats aren't going anywhere. Patch 1.5 has a lot to offer besides just U-Boats. Not hearing "all stop" on resuming a saved game is just one of them.

I happen to love playing with U-Boats. My first love will always be the Fleet Boats, but the whole U-Boat story is fascinating. Don't confuse an understandable lot of enthusiasm by U-Boat fans for what is new for a lack of commitment by those who love the American subs. We will just have one sim serving both. And that is good.

If you haven't spent the $10 for the upgrade (more in Europe) you're missing a great upgrade for fleet boats. And you might be surprised by the U-Boat and Operation Monsun! It will make you appreciate your fleet boat, that's for sure! And I think it is a lot of fun.

[melnibonian]

I am sure some of you will say this is some old man who resist change. Well it is not the case at all.
I bought SH4 spent quite a bit of my money to upgrade my system so I could run it. It is a great sim and I enjoy it very much. I was and remain a big fan of SHCE/SH1. I always hoped there with be a new or even a replacement for SH!. What I did not buy was another U-Boat sim, but apparently any improvements to SH4 will only be in the form of German Boats and missions. Why can't there be improvements to the original SH4, and yes I have patch 1.4. There are already 3 U-Boat sims. I must be out of step wanting to play U.S. Submarines.
This is a very big disappointment to me. I entered the Navy in 1958 an served on Nuclear Subs for many years, I was influenced by the Co's and Chiefs that had served in the boats in WWII, they were OUR inspiration and OUR model, we wanted to be as good as they were. I believe we took this example with us as we fought the "Cold War", and no we did not sink enemy ships we gathered a hell of a lot of intelligence that made a difference. People say we won the Cold War and now we are on the eve of another one with China, I hope the present day "Brothers Of the Dolphins" take us as there role model and have the same success as we did.
Please let's show some fair play and work on improvement's for SH4. I am not attacking U-Boat sims, I just want to play my country's subs.

Thanks,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)
I totally agree with you and I totally understand you. If you like playing the US subs then I suggest you try the Trigger Maru Mod. It is very very good and gives a totally new experience to the game. :up:

For more information check out this thread http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119504

[Bewolf]

I am sure some of you will say this is some old man who resist change. Well it is not the case at all.
I bought SH4 spent quite a bit of my money to upgrade my system so I could run it. It is a great sim and I enjoy it very much. I was and remain a big fan of SHCE/SH1. I always hoped there with be a new or even a replacement for SH!. What I did not buy was another U-Boat sim, but apparently any improvements to SH4 will only be in the form of German Boats and missions. Why can't there be improvements to the original SH4, and yes I have patch 1.4. There are already 3 U-Boat sims. I must be out of step wanting to play U.S. Submarines.
This is a very big disappointment to me. I entered the Navy in 1958 an served on Nuclear Subs for many years, I was influenced by the Co's and Chiefs that had served in the boats in WWII, they were OUR inspiration and OUR model, we wanted to be as good as they were. I believe we took this example with us as we fought the "Cold War", and no we did not sink enemy ships we gathered a hell of a lot of intelligence that made a difference. People say we won the Cold War and now we are on the eve of another one with China, I hope the present day "Brothers Of the Dolphins" take us as there role model and have the same success as we did.
Please let's show some fair play and work on improvement's for SH4. I am not attacking U-Boat sims, I just want to play my country's subs.

Thanks,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)
As much as I understand you, subsailor, you have to see that a lot of people here wanting this U boat sim are not actual US citizens. I assume it must appear to you that most ppl here speaking up for an Atlantic mod are americans having forgotten the great pride and legacy the US navy passed on to the americans of today and instead vote in favor of the historical forces of evil for a plain coolness factor. Rest assured, there are enough members here, both from the US and international, sharing your exact sentiments, amongst them very very capable modders doing their best for the Pacific. The Pacific won't lose anything in SHIV, it just gets acompanied by it's Atlantic brother.
The rest of us, ppl from all over the world just the same, simply have more interest in the Atlantic. That may be for patriotic reasons, for a more familiar setting, for beeing from countries actually having been involved in the european war, for more of a challenge especially later in the war, for purely atmospheric reasons or indeed for the "coolness" factor. It has nothing to do with disliking the Pacific in general. It's just a preference.

[Jimbuna]

I certainly hope the modders in SH4 do continue their excellent work.....I spent some of my hard earned dosh on it as well.

I like having the best of both worlds.....don't we all http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4030/winkbigid2zj6.gif

[Dowly]

By the way, let me give a shout out to Dowly, the author of the Pearl Harbor Menu 1.0, what I think is the most important mood-setter for the Pacific war yet released. I don't know why it never gets any attention, but it is magnificent! If he is an evil U-Boater, why did he make such a great contribution in the Pacific? hmmmmmmmmm? Hat's off for a great mod by a great modder!:up:

First of all, thank you very much. TBH, I didnt even remember I had made anything like that. Must've been a brainfart of some sort. :p

Second of all, I havent been an "evil U-booter" in a loooong time, nowadays I sit in my comfy Messerschmitt 109 cockpit and keep the yanks out of the Kriegmarine's back. ;)

And for third, call me a "great modder" one more time and I think I need to come down there and slap you around. :rotfl: Anyone could've done it. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

By the way, let me give a shout out to Dowly, the author of the Pearl Harbor Menu 1.0, what I think is the most important mood-setter for the Pacific war yet released. I don't know why it never gets any attention, but it is magnificent! If he is an evil U-Boater, why did he make such a great contribution in the Pacific? hmmmmmmmmm? Hat's off for a great mod by a great modder!:up:
First of all, thank you very much. TBH, I didnt even remember I had made anything like that. Must've been a brainfart of some sort. :p

Second of all, I havent been an "evil U-booter" in a loooong time, nowadays I sit in my comfy Messerschmitt 109 cockpit and keep the yanks out of the Kriegmarine's back. ;)

And for third, call me a "great modder" one more time and I think I need to come down there and slap you around. :rotfl: Anyone could've done it. :up:



Yeah, Dowly likes the warbirds these day. Says he gets more chicks. :D

[Nisgeis]

<SNIP>
For the moment I've a type 7C almost finished, (I wanted to see with my own eyes what level of detail was needed) so I decided to make player sub as they are the most complex objects in game.

This pics are just a WIP, as I haven't finished the textures, and the oclusion map needs some more work too


http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q216/refsh3/type7c_010.jpg
Ref

Sorry to everyone for posting on topic, but that's a seriously nice looking model. Daft question - Do the lights light up for naigation?

[Dowly]

By the way, let me give a shout out to Dowly, the author of the Pearl Harbor Menu 1.0, what I think is the most important mood-setter for the Pacific war yet released. I don't know why it never gets any attention, but it is magnificent! If he is an evil U-Boater, why did he make such a great contribution in the Pacific? hmmmmmmmmm? Hat's off for a great mod by a great modder!:up:
First of all, thank you very much. TBH, I didnt even remember I had made anything like that. Must've been a brainfart of some sort. :p

Second of all, I havent been an "evil U-booter" in a loooong time, nowadays I sit in my comfy Messerschmitt 109 cockpit and keep the yanks out of the Kriegmarine's back. ;)

And for third, call me a "great modder" one more time and I think I need to come down there and slap you around. :rotfl: Anyone could've done it. :up:


Yeah, Dowly likes the warbirds these day. Says he gets more chicks. :D

Well you guys are out at sea for months, I fly a sortie of ~45min and I'm back home, of course I get more chicks! :rotfl:

[bigboywooly]

I have a mission to take photos of Scapa and Bdu waits for no man

:rock:

So you did get the order from Bdu and not ComSubPac anymore? :lol:

Of course

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_555-1.jpg

C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Menu

Open Menu in notepad

Look for line 4193=Bdu

[Rockin Robbins]

Look for line 4193=Bdu
This is one parameter that should have been split for U-Boats and Fleet Boats. If you change it, then your Fleet Boat messages will be from Bdu. :rotfl: Maybe some programming wizardry could fix that line automatically when you switch sides?

[bigboywooly]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget

[kiwi_2005]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget
So if i wanted to set this up would i make a copy of the menu edit one to show messages from BDU & with the other for US campaign put them in separate folders with a name say SH4 & Uboats with folders inside pointing to data/Menu with the menu file inside the menu folder:hmm: .... did that make sense? And all i need to do is load the one in JSGME for the particular game i want to run.

[Hitman]

In the end a full install for PTO and another for UBoats is what most people will have. I would even recommend to the UBM/PTO modders to modify the menu -at least as an option- to completely delete the options regarding the other side, and if possible, make a list of folders that can be safely deleted to get more free disk space.

I myself have the double install thanks to MultiSH4 and it is the best option IMHO :yep:

[bigboywooly]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget
So if i wanted to set this up would i make a copy of the menu edit one to show messages from BDU & with the other for US campaign put them in separate folders with a name say SH4 & Uboats with folders inside pointing to data/Menu with the menu file inside the menu folder:hmm: .... did that make sense? And all i need to do is load the one in JSGME for the particular game i want to run.

Here you go Kiwi

JSGME ready

http://www.mediafire.com/?2k2zxkwuzj2

[Fincuan]

Look for line 4193=Bdu

Thanks! And you of course mean change 4193=COMSUBPAC to that

[kiwi_2005]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget
So if i wanted to set this up would i make a copy of the menu edit one to show messages from BDU & with the other for US campaign put them in separate folders with a name say SH4 & Uboats with folders inside pointing to data/Menu with the menu file inside the menu folder:hmm: .... did that make sense? And all i need to do is load the one in JSGME for the particular game i want to run.
Here you go Kiwi

JSGME ready

http://www.mediafire.com/?2k2zxkwuzj2

Thanks!

[bigboywooly]

Look for line 4193=Bdu

Thanks! And you of course mean change 4193=COMSUBPAC to that

Yep sorry :oops:

[Alex]

Nothing wrong with your English CaptainNemo
A lot better than my German

Yes
Lets crack on
I have a mission to take photos of Scapa and Bdu waits for no man

:rock:

:huh: !

:arrgh!: :know: :sunny:

[Bewolf]

I have a mission to take photos of Scapa and Bdu waits for no man

:rock:
So you did get the order from Bdu and not ComSubPac anymore? :lol:
Of course

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_555-1.jpg

C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Menu

Open Menu in notepad

Look for line 4193=Bdu

Ha! Now that's a start!:rock:

[ref]

Sorry to everyone for posting on topic, but that's a seriously nice looking model. Daft question - Do the lights light up for naigation?

You almost make me ruin a keyboard with coffe with that :D
It's quite easy to light up the nav lights, but they only should be lit near port, I don't know if it's possible to make that so, I'll take a look at it.

Ref

[Dowly]

Sorry to everyone for posting on topic, but that's a seriously nice looking model. Daft question - Do the lights light up for naigation?
You almost make me ruin a keyboard with coffe with that :D
It's quite easy to light up the nav lights, but they only should be lit near port, I don't know if it's possible to make that so, I'll take a look at it.

Ref

That would actually be pretty darn cool to be able to have them on (and possibly to switch them off). I go out to my family's summer cottage alot in the summer, it's on an island in the middle of nowhere so it looks great when it's pitch black out on the lake and you see someone driving a boat with his lights on. :up:

[Digital_Trucker]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget


That forgetfulness thing can be solved with MultiSH4. Just have a German campaign install and an American campaign install. Mods specific to either stay in their own install and mods that are not campaign specific go in both. Eats up a good bit of hard drive space, but costs per gig of hard drive are lower every day.

[Madox58]

You all have to type slower.
:yep:
I can't read so fast.
:nope:
Gone for a day and this thread has doubled in pages!!
:o

[bigboywooly]

[quote=bigboywooly]Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget


That forgetfulness thing can be solved with MultiSH4. quote]

I will have to take your word for that as not used MultiSh4
All well and good then :up:

In fact I didnt even use MultiSH3 :hmm:

[melnibonian]

Sorry to everyone for posting on topic, but that's a seriously nice looking model. Daft question - Do the lights light up for naigation?

You almost make me ruin a keyboard with coffe with that :D
It's quite easy to light up the nav lights, but they only should be lit near port, I don't know if it's possible to make that so, I'll take a look at it.

Ref
In reality (if I remember correctly) German U-Boats were not using navigation lights during WWII even close to ports for fear of the Royal Navy destroyers and blockade ships. Nevertheless it would be cool to see the U-Boats lit like Christmas Trees near the ports :lol: :D

[bigboywooly]

C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Menu

Open Menu in notepad

Look for line 4193=Bdu

Ha! Now that's a start!:rock:[/quote]

13th Flotilla eh

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_215-2.jpg

:rotfl:

[Rockin Robbins]

Sorry to everyone for posting on topic, but that's a seriously nice looking model. Daft question - Do the lights light up for naigation?
You almost make me ruin a keyboard with coffe with that :D
It's quite easy to light up the nav lights, but they only should be lit near port, I don't know if it's possible to make that so, I'll take a look at it.

Ref In reality (if I remember correctly) German U-Boats were not using navigation lights during WWII even close to ports for fear of the Royal Navy destroyers and blockade ships. Nevertheless it would be cool to see the U-Boats lit like Christmas Trees near the ports :lol: :DOnly Americans were bright enough to use nav lights during the first several months of 1942. Took us awhile to figure out were in a real war!:yep:

[Bewolf]

C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Menu

Open Menu in notepad

Look for line 4193=Bdu
Ha! Now that's a start!:rock:
13th Flotilla eh

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_215-2.jpg

:rotfl:



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :huh:

[swdw]

bigboywooly- Ya kinda missed the point here- this was addressed at the FANS of GWX that keep asking questions as if nothing will work w/o GWX who've never tried one of the major SH4 mods.

It's not the "Oh boy the ATO with the SH4 engine" group that bothre's me. In fact, I'm happy for them as they get to have a chance at the improvements wrought by SH4 over SH3. It's people that pop off with an attitude that w/o GWX, nothing can be accomplished that bug me. So you don't get picqued again- I'm talking about the posts we've seen from the fan base.

Ref caught on to that after a couple of posts. And ref, I don't ask you guys to control your fans, but when they start asking questions that show they have little respect for the SH4 modding community, I have no problem in pointing that out to them.

You must have missed the line preceding the first point. Let me add it again in bold
Maybe if GWX fans didn't make posts that show

1. They assume no one else is capable of fixing anything but GWX,

Show me one post that states that
Look at the OP- it's all in the ATTITUDE presented in the posts, and there are numerous ones over that last few weeks.

2. They haven't even bothered to actually look into the major SH4 mods to see what's been done (see #1)

From my own POV I would rather NOT lookinto any SH4 mods then cant be accused of stealing - we all have ideas and surprisingly enough some are the same

Again- this was addressed at the GWX fans- note- not GWX team, but GWX FANS. So take a chill pill, no one's accusing the GWX team of "stealing" anything. It's very obvious by questions being asked among the GWX fans, many haven't bothered to check out the major mods in existence.

3. Little to no respect for all the hard work already done by SH4 modders (see #1)
Same response as before- who were those comments addesssed to?- and again- it's all in the attitude portrayed in the posts of the GWX fan base.


And BTW for those not modding. Although ref's posts seem to show an "open arms" approach, GWX has not approached any major SH4 modder about cooperation.

SH4 modders as a whole are interested in the PTO
The " major " modders certainly are
GWX isnt
Why co operate in an area we are not heading into

Besides why go where we are not wanted


This shows you guys have a ways to catch up on the SH4 game structure if you think changes to one theater don't impact another. The way the devs handled the UBM add-on, the 2 theaters WILL have issues unless care is taken by people on both sides. It's caused numerous headaches trying to get RFB for 1.5 out because we are trying to make sure both the u-boats and fleet boats benefit w/o taking anything away from the other side.

Besides- I'm not the one espousing how freindluy you guys are. From your post and refs, it's obviuous you guys even have differing opinions about this.

[bigboywooly]

This shows you guys have a ways to catch up on the SH4 game structure if you think changes to one theater don't impact another. The way the devs handled the UBM add-on, the 2 theaters WILL have issues unless care is taken by people on both sides. It's caused numerous headaches trying to get RFB for 1.5 out because we are trying to make sure both the u-boats and fleet boats benefit w/o taking anything away from the other side.

.

Ummm read post 101 above

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget

[lurker_hlb3]

C:\Program Files\Ubisoft\Silent Hunter 4 Wolves of the Pacific\Data\Menu

Open Menu in notepad

Look for line 4193=Bdu
Ha! Now that's a start!:rock:
13th Flotilla eh

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_215-2.jpg

:rotfl:[/quote]

I see you finally figured out how to create a Flotilla without getting a CTD

[bigboywooly]

Yes I did thank you Lurker

Took some high powered intervention though

[Madox58]

I really wish Capt. Cox was still around.
:nope:
I spent alot of time with him and explained alot that got him going
full bore.
I never once asked him to hold back anything I helped him learn.
And he really did some great work.
All this "Us or Them" stuff is about as silly and wasteful as it gets.
Each and everyone here ASSUMES certain things.
Each and everyone here has not one IOTA of a clue!
It's all speculation.
It's all based on "passed experience".
By those standards?
We must still all prepare for Y2K!
The sky is falling.
No doubt.
But just who is makeing it fall?
:hmm:

[swdw]

Ummm read post 101 above

Oh I did , I also read

Why co operate in an area we are not heading into
So first you say, you don't need to cooperate because you're not headed into an area that affects the PTO, then you turn anround and admit they WILL interact.

Good grief, you can't seem to make up your mind. Not only do you contradict ref, you turn around and contradict yourself.

Would you please make up your mind.

[Madox58]

Oh for Crimmanies sake!!
Lighten up!!
Does anyone have everything perfected?
Umm...
NOPE!!
I don't see this jump and kill method used anywhere but here.
:nope:
And you proclaim to be open minded?
:rotfl:

[lurker_hlb3]

Yes I did thank you Lurker

Took some high powered intervention though

I though you would have been able to figure it out by yourself

[swdw]

Oh for Crimmanies sake!!
Lighten up!!
Does anyone have everything perfected?
Umm...
NOPE!!
I don't see this jump and kill method used anywhere but here.
:nope:
And you proclaim to be open minded?
:rotfl:
Yep, but I don't proclaim to be a doormat;)

Interesting though, his responses have entailed switching viewpoints in response to my posts. Since he was responding to me with contradictory replies, why is it close minded to point this out?

Excuse me if asking someone to let you know where they really stand is being close minded. Where I come from, you can't even discuss a point reasonably without a clear understanding of another persons position.

And since both sidea are jumping, why are you only being snide to someone w/o a GWX sig?

[ref]

Ummm read post 101 above

Oh I did , I also read

Why co operate in an area we are not heading into
So first you say, you don't need to cooperate because you're not headed into an area that affects the PTO, then you turn anround and admit they WILL interact.

Good grief, you can't seem to make up your mind. Not only do you contradict ref, you turn around and contradict yourself.

Would you please make up your mind.

You're demonstrating with your posts that indeed you have a problem with the GW dev team, since the thread started you keeped trolling for a harsh answer from one of us, let me tell you that you're not going to succeed, if you don't like a post and consider it provocative or ofensive in any way please file a report with the moderators, otherwhise please stop baiting.

Ref

[Madox58]

Well, I didn't holler.
And you just happened to be the post reply I clicked on.
But if the shoe fits.

Now, just to be CLEAR!
This is aimed at all!

The GW Team is doing what they do.
Modding. (That is a period)

We are trying to make a peaceful transition.
We are trying to start a new period in our History.
As much as some may not like this,
it is going to happen.

Nothing short of tracking down all of us and killing us is going to stop this!
Whine and cry all you want?
It's a done deal.

We put our hands out.
Are you slapping them away?

That only makes us stronger,
more dedicated to the task at hand.

You all have some major talent and insight stepping up to bat.
Are you refusing that talent because of personal conflicts?

:roll:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Frack, there is a lot of this stuff lately, I don't care what side you are coming from lads it's gotta stop. There has been great, great work done with SH4 thus far, a tremendous amount with the PTO side, with the add on now here, that side of the game is starting to take off, especially with OM and what is planned with it.

Then you have the AOTD folks who have been working on the ATO side of things for awhile, throw in the GWX crew and what they have planned, and the future looks bright for the game. At the end of the day folks may not like one another, nobody is saying this is a requirement here, but at least have respect each other and move on from what has been going on in this thread, it is going nowhere.

We are moving towards an experience where soon the entire ocean will be opened up, hell these really are exciting times to be into this stuff :yep: Onward and upward if you ask me.


RDP

[thasaint]

best... news... EVAR!

[Madox58]

RDP

I think you said it all right there.
All I want is an end to this type carp fishing.

If We stay silent, We BAD.
If We talk, We BAD.

This has to end somewhere, sometime.
:roll:

[ReallyDedPoet]

It's fun for nobody in this mire. This place, SUBSIM, deserves better.


RDP

[Madox58]

:up:

[bigboywooly]

Ummm read post 101 above

Oh I did , I also read

Why co operate in an area we are not heading into
So first you say, you don't need to cooperate because you're not headed into an area that affects the PTO, then you turn anround and admit they WILL interact.

Good grief, you can't seem to make up your mind. Not only do you contradict ref, you turn around and contradict yourself.

Would you please make up your mind.

Would you please learn to read a thread

And I guess its probably fair to say that any proper adaptation of SH4 for the ATO will not be compatable with the PTO
Too many shared files
Change one for the ATO and impacts on the PTO
Voices is a quick and easy example

Ummmm does that not say that one area is not compatable with the other if the joint files are altered
Yes they interact but by modding the files I\We intend to the PTO wont work properly
Ergo no point in co operating with SH4 PTO modders

And by

Why co operate in an area we are not heading into I meant the PTO
Not the files

Clear enough for you ?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Frack, there is a lot of this stuff lately, I don't care what side you are coming from lads it's gotta stop. There has been great, great work done with SH4 thus far, a tremendous amount with the PTO side, with the add on now here, that side of the game is starting to take off, especially with OM and what is planned with it.

Then you have the AOTD folks who have been working on the ATO side of things for awhile, throw in the GWX crew and what they have planned, and the future looks bright for the game. At the end of the day folks may not like one another, nobody is saying this is a requirement here, but at least have respect each other and move on from what has been going on in this thread, it is going nowhere.

We are moving towards an experience where soon the entire ocean will be opened up, hell these really are exciting times to be into this stuff :yep: Onward and upward if you ask me.


RDP

People not see this :roll:
Move on folks, nothing is being accomplished here, not tonight anyway, hopefully in the future that will change.

Step back and chill for awhile.


RDP

[bigboywooly]

Yes I did thank you Lurker

Took some high powered intervention though

I though you would have been able to figure it out by yourself

No I couldnt
Wasnt seeing the wood for the trees
Sometimes happens

Got there in the end though

[JScones]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget
Maybe something for the eventual SH4 Commander/Skipper/whatever to handle. :hmm:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Frack, there is a lot of this stuff lately, I don't care what side you are coming from lads it's gotta stop. There has been great, great work done with SH4 thus far, a tremendous amount with the PTO side, with the add on now here, that side of the game is starting to take off, especially with OM and what is planned with it.

Then you have the AOTD folks who have been working on the ATO side of things for awhile, throw in the GWX crew and what they have planned, and the future looks bright for the game. At the end of the day folks may not like one another, nobody is saying this is a requirement here, but at least have respect each other and move on from what has been going on in this thread, it is going nowhere.

We are moving towards an experience where soon the entire ocean will be opened up, hell these really are exciting times to be into this stuff :yep: Onward and upward if you ask me.


RDP

People not see this :roll:
Move on folks, nothing is being accomplished here, not tonight anyway, hopefully in the future that will change.

Step back and chill for awhile.


RDP

Before the moderatorship prematurely slams a big lock on this thread... (and I am not being malicious with anything I write here)

I disagree that nothing is being accomplished here.

Is it unpleasant for some? Certainly. We walked into the SH4 saloon and ordered a whiskey.

We (GWX mod teamers and U-boat modders in general) have become part of the SH4 modding community.

Some feel that the entire SH4 game platform is their "turf." As difficult as it is for some to believe, there has been very loud resistance from a few, focused at those who would like to place anything U-boat on the SH4 game platform.

Some may feel that we want to hoover up all the toys and keep them to ourselves... That's hogwash! We give away virtually everything we create every time we execute a release.

Any analogy to being some sort of communist entity run by a dictator is also hogwash. Without leadership, a project is doomed from the outset to failure... due to its inability to advance... and to simply execute a decision. If every pixel must be voted on by the team... that team will become paralysed and will die of old age before building anything with a focus. This is true of both business and military organizations.

Well, I didn't holler.
And you just happened to be the post reply I clicked on.
But if the shoe fits.

Now, just to be CLEAR!
This is aimed at all!

The GW Team is doing what they do.
Modding. (That is a period)

We are trying to make a peaceful transition.
We are trying to start a new period in our History.
As much as some may not like this,
it is going to happen.

Nothing short of tracking down all of us and killing us is going to stop this!
Whine and cry all you want?
It's a done deal.

We put our hands out.
Are you slapping them away?

That only makes us stronger,
more dedicated to the task at hand.

You all have some major talent and insight stepping up to bat.
Are you refusing that talent because of personal conflicts?

:roll:

RDP

I think you said it all right there.
All I want is an end to this type carp fishing.

If We stay silent, We BAD.
If We talk, We BAD.

This has to end somewhere, sometime.
:roll:

Everything Privateer has said (and Ref and BBW before him) is really absolute truth. Though I have no doubt some will refuse to believe it. After all, we can write any old thing here and simply be chameleons right?

Regarding cooperation/"coopetition." I don't understand why anyone thinks that the GWX mod team is somehow uncooperative. If people here had more time to read various readmes... you'd see how very opposite the situation is.

No one should be shocked regarding cooperation with the AOTD mod team. The teams are not 'merging' and limited cooperation will be mutually beneficial... all the while maintaining team independance that allows for freedom of movement aside from any special agreements that are reached between our teams.

Why work in secret? It is really quite simple. It leaves us free to explore, make mistakes, and include or cancel ideas without being confronted by scores of distractions and frequent snide comments born of 'vendetta.'

It also allows us to vent our frustrations without bringing them here... more often than you realize.

How is it that a team like GWX can stay together without getting paid? Also simple. Friendship is better than any amount of money one could offer. In the end we share a vision of what 'might be' if we work hard enough. We all work towards that goal as a team... as a crew to see it through.

Diversity is a strength and at time it is a weakness...

Speaking regarding the GWX mod team, we've had American, German, British, Argentinian, French, Serbian, Australian, Greek, Brazilian, Finnish, Dutch, Swedish, Canadian, and Spanish members.

In theory... you might think that such a team couldn't exist, coexist... much less cooperate!

It is a bit of a miracle if you ask me.

We've had a handful of internal knock-down-drag-out arguments, occasionally resulting in a team member leaving the project and crew on bad terms to put it gently. Although, some of these individuals may have no respect for individuals on the team... and vice-versa... Ultimately, I think it was because those individuals were probably more suited to run their own project. Nothing wrong with that in concept. The only thing we (naturally) object to overt attempts to damage the team or project by the individual leaving it behind.

Such events are to be expected if you really sit down and think about it.

Some left the team after giving so much that they had nothing left to give.

Regarding motivations. Can ANYONE here really explain HOW you came to be interested in submarines? People simply like what they like and enjoy what they enjoy. It really is inexplicable.

Why don't you prefer tanks, or flight sims. Why don't you prefer addiction to your cell phone... or squeezing another horse out of your car?

Why do you hate asparagus? *coff*

You simply like what you like and all sorts of emotive elements get tacked on as you go on in life.

How can anyone blame a red-blooded American for feeling a bit patriotic for sailing out of Pearl Harbor in 1942?

How can anyone blame a German in the same light. Are they not allowed to love their country? (I am not talking of Nazi politics... but the country and its people. Please don't go down Nazi-road.)

Those are 'emotive' reinforcements to things you may enjoy.

Speaking for myself... I feel that I am trying to understand a former enemy.

We are all playing "war" here... and the war we reinact is over. It has been decided, and history cannot be changed.

Everyone here bleeds when they are cut. We are all the same in that respect.

Difference in culture is just fine. We see and do things differently... and as long as we "play war" no lives are lost... everyone goes home for dinner... and we got to meet some people we liked and some that we didn't.

We naturally gravitate to others who are like-minded

Trading a few insults is quite different than shooting someone in the head and ending their life.

As U-boat modders begin to produce serious works for the SH4 platform... it naturally ceases to be entirely about one theater.

It is the platform that we need to progress... not individual preferences.

Regarding GWX mod team intentions... you'll never find us building a U-boat bunker in Dutch harbor. It never happened in real life.

Heck, don't shoot at us and we won't shoot at you.

Wouldn't we rather trade beer (or coffee) anyway?

(Okay... I'm done for now. Try to be cool folks.)

[thasaint]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget Maybe something for the eventual SH4 Commander/Skipper/whatever to handle. :hmm:

interesting... hehe

glad to see all the guys from sh3 over here, i can't wait!

[JScones]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget Maybe something for the eventual SH4 Commander/Skipper/whatever to handle. :hmm:

interesting... hehe

glad to see all the guys from sh3 over here, i can't wait!
Woh, let's nip this one in the bud quickly, LOL! I am merely a spectator over here...a player only.

Although of course I will continue development of JSGME, just as soon as I tie off some remaining SH3 commitments.

[bigboywooly]

Doh had my hopes up there for a SH4Commander Jaesen
Tease

[THE_MASK]

Yep thats what I meant when said one change for the ATO impacts the PTO
One of many

You can JSGME a menu file in when you switch but ppl will forget Maybe something for the eventual SH4 Commander/Skipper/whatever to handle. :hmm:

interesting... hehe

glad to see all the guys from sh3 over here, i can't wait! I second that .

[AVGWarhawk]

KL(mostly for KL) and all,

What is written here my offend and you might look on aghast but here it is....



Before the moderatorship prematurely slams a big lock on this thread... (and I am not being malicious with anything I write here)


There is only one thing I do prematurely and it does not include locking threads. Thanks for the help.


I disagree that nothing is being accomplished here.



You are correct.


We (GWX mod teamers and U-boat modders in general) have become part of the SH4 modding community.



This was expected. The add-on kind of took everyone in that general direction. Thanks for pointing that out. A large U-boat on the load screen for the add on was indicative of this.



Some feel that the entire SH4 game platform is their "turf." As difficult as it is for some to believe, there has been very loud resistance from a few, focused at those who would like to place anything U-boat on the SH4 game platform.



Same feeling others get with GWX and SH3. Anyone see NYGM lately? Remember the code. Looks innocent on the surface...but it is anything but. You understood my feelings on that over a year ago. Modders being summarily dismissed if not cooperating on the "turf"...ie, Racerboy(I still think there is a candle light vigil awaiting his return), OLC in a heated thead wanting to use a GWX file. If I remember correctly, he did not need it anyway. Markshot, looking to understand the files was summarily dismissed by the GWX crew. His sig now reads, "will not post because possible bullying/attack. Go look him up in the captains roster. I do not think he has posted in a month. Nice job.




Some may feel that we want to hoover up all the toys and keep them to ourselves... That's hogwash! We give away virtually everything we create every time we execute a release.



Yes you do, there is no way around that. But, with that said I refer back to OLC and his desire to use a file. You dangled it in front of him like a carrot I think about 4 pages worth on that thread. Lucky for him and the rest of the members GUI was created. What a nice mod.



Everything Privateer has said (and Ref and BBW before him) is really absolute truth. THough I have no doubt some will refuse to believe it. After all, we can write any old thing here and simply be chameleons right?



I have no issue with anyone. Both Privateer and Ref are standup guys(truely). However, I disagree with the hand being slapped back. I have witnessed much the same from GWX. Refer to the above.


Regarding cooperation/"coopetition." I don't understand why anyone thinks that the GWX mod team is somehow uncooperative. If people here had more time to read various readmes... you'd see how very opposite the situation is.


The uncooperative aspect stems from the refered to Racerboy, OLC and Markshot. There are others. Again, all brought forthwith from the installation of the modders code. As far as readmes, virtually no one reads them and I think this is the grass roots to the often used 'RFM'.

No one should be shocked regarding cooperation with the AOTD mod team. The teams are not 'merging' and limited cooperation will be mutually beneficial... all the while maintaining team independance that allows for freedom of movement aside from any special agreements that are reached between our teams.


No one is shocked. What is shocking is a thread a day or so ago a member from AOTD popped in and asked to share notes with you. You blew him off. I did not see any reply. He is a guy way ahead of the game and he receives no replay. Ref finally responded to the guy. I believe it was Hitman who found a thread in a forum a month ago thinking it was someone looking to steal mods and make a addon for profit. It was all misconstrued. It was AOTD. They opened the book and said they were modding SH4 for the Atlantic come on over and see what we got. Here is the link. Very interesting I would say. But I'm just a simpleton moderator at best.

Furthermore, RDP,Hitman and myself constantly post and ask that things stop and threads get back on track. We are summarily dismissed by the GWX team, the crew, Ducimus and anyone else who chime in. Our posts to cease and desist are jumped and the all continue on their merry way beating the keyboard to death. Here too, I see were you feel you must advise a lock is coming premeturely. We, as moderators, are very sorry to be nothing but idiots who need not be paid any attention.

The basic premise here is other modders who have been working on SH4 since day one with all it's bugs(kindly worked out for you) feel that being put on the back burner as GWX has moved in is wrong. I can see where they feel this way. Alas, we must remember that this will(mark my words) will be two pronged no matter how you cut it. Uboats will go one way and Fleets the other way. It is inevitable. Other members are walking through the forums with blinders on and see only GWX. This is the issue. I think a few of the crew have said "atta boy" to a few of the modders in SH4. For that I thank them. All they ask is some acknowlegment and do not wish to have a mod war. You will find that no one in the SH4 mod forum has been beaten to death, denied or otherwise made to look stupid if they asked to use a mod. In fact, I have never seen such cooperation. These modder are asking the cooperation goes forward as it has been for over a year. Yes, SH4 has been out over a year. Just as you busted you tail over 2 years, these fellas have been at it also. So, is it wrong for them to be a bit defensive? GWX crew is very defensive and I see it everytime someone says something against their liking. The crew circles and destroys. This is what I read day after day.


Please feel free to rip into anything I have stated. No changing colors like a lizard. Have at it. Much to my chagrine, I'm really at my wits end with it all. Particularly when a member post a moderator might close a thread prematurely but I'm going to get my licks in before that happens. None of the moderators are your tools to use as you wish.

Enjoy your day.

[bigboywooly]

No one is shocked. What is shocking is a thread a day or so ago a member from AOTD popped in and asked to share notes with you. You blew him off. I did not see any reply. .

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=841068&postcount=36

37 minutes after CaptainNemo posted

[AVGWarhawk]

No one is shocked. What is shocking is a thread a day or so ago a member from AOTD popped in and asked to share notes with you. You blew him off. I did not see any reply. .

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=841068&postcount=36

37 minutes after CaptainNemo posted

Yes, I stated that in my post one of the crew responded. The offer was dismissed by KL. Read that part again and quote the whole thought.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

AVG, I can only address a few things you've stated as I am cancelling needed sleep again. (We've been getting our tails kicked at my RL job.)

...so I suppose that when people get nasty with us that we continue cooperating or remain impassive regardless?

AVG, I did not mean to imply that the moderators are idiots... but what we have seen is plain and simple fatigue and disinterest with the 'issues' cause threads to be locked instead of finding resolution.

I think your response is heavy with fatigue.

I feel rotten about the OLC incident... and for quite some time now, I've given him full cooperation with his modding wishes as a sort of penance.. Infact I sent him links to a late GWX 2.1 beta to facilitate his efforts following our final release... as a sort of penance. (Ask him if I did so.) He and I have since spoken on a number of occasions on TS for the sake of ensuring compatability.

Racerboy took a meter and expected the mile... My reaction to him... was the TEAM's reaction... not only my own. You cannot personalize it to being "Kpt. Lehmann's" sole reaction. Every element of that occasion was channeled to the team first.

Markshot posted his opinions, and subsequently got upset when we scrutinized his methodology.

I didn't respond to the AOTD representative's thread because I can only be in one place at a time. Between 60-65 hours per week at my RL job, school, and clinical rotations... I have to prioritize my time... leaving many things unanswered for a time. That's life... not me blowing someone off. No one here pays my rent or puts fuel in my car. Not responding to a post is not the same as DISMISSING it.. and quite a few things get channeled through the team first. Captain Nemo's offer would naturally be one of those things that requires a bit of discussion.

Regarding cooperation, you are not able to comment without conjecture, on how much or how little we've done to assist others external to the team. You are infact oblivious to it because you are not privy to team communications. We do so privately. We don't ring church bells when we do such things.

You responded to my post before it was complete. I've tried as hard as I know how to calmly post an open and honest reason in a nut shell, why we have done things a certain way... and you have dismissed it.

You are entitled to your opinion.

However, if I am the ogre that you'd like to paint... the Grey Wolves mod would never have seen the light of day. (or at least would be under some other name and some other team leader)

You guys do on occasion make snap decisions because you only get the part of the picture you can see... or because you sense a temperature change.

I can understand being tired of all the crap. I can't describe how tired I am of it myself.

The thing is guys, is as Privateer stated. We are not going away. We've developed a system that works... and actually produces. Big stuff frightens people sometimes when they don't understand all the bits that go with it.

If that system is significantly changed... the project will cease to exist.

If some feel that the project has gotten too big... they will continue to feel that way. Not a darn thing we can do about that. What some will describe as malicious... we may feel is simply defending our honor.

Bottom line though. If you don't like what we produce... don't use it. If you can't stand us... don't read our posts. Nothing we can do will take away your interests or free will... or vice versa. Given these thoughts... It seems to me that it would be rather easy to be philisophical about it ALL. Besides, this kind of discussion was bound to happen sooner or later.

Cheers for now.

<zips up bunker coat>

[bigboywooly]

Oh yeah sorry


No one is shocked. What is shocking is a thread a day or so ago a member from AOTD popped in and asked to share notes with you. You blew him off. I did not see any reply. He is a guy way ahead of the game and he receives no replay. Ref finally responded to the guy


37 minutes=finally

And when did KL blow him off ?
What because he didnt reply
No secret KL is stepping down from GWX due to RL
Ref already answered Capt Nemo

[AVGWarhawk]

Oh yeah sorry


No one is shocked. What is shocking is a thread a day or so ago a member from AOTD popped in and asked to share notes with you. You blew him off. I did not see any reply. He is a guy way ahead of the game and he receives no replay. Ref finally responded to the guy


37 minutes=finally

And when did KL blow him off ?
What because he didnt reply
No secret KL is stepping down from GWX due to RL
Ref already answered Capt Nemo

Secret to me. No matter, again, I stated one of the crew replied. KL did not. As the TEAM LEADER....I would reply. But that is just me.

Ah, all the other thoughts posted there and this is the sole one you have issue with? Amazing:hmm:

[bigboywooly]

Not the sole one but you directed your post elsewhere

I could go on but theres no point debating with you is there
We all know which side your loyalties lie on

Meh

:zzz:

[AVGWarhawk]

AVG, I can only address a few things you've stated as I am cancelling needed sleep again. (We've been getting our tails kicked at my RL job.)

...so I suppose that when people get nasty with us that we continue cooperating or remain impassive regardless?

AVG, I did not mean to imply that the moderators are idiots... but what we have seen is plain and simple fatigue and disinterest with the 'issues' cause threads to be locked instead of finding resolution.

I think your response is heavy with fatigue.

I feel rotten about the OLC incident... and for quite some time now, I've given him full cooperation with his modding wishes as a sort of penance.. Infact I sent him links to a late GWX 2.1 beta to facilitate his efforts following our final release... as a sort of penance. (Ask him if I did so.) He and I have since spoken on a number of occasions on TS for the sake of ensuring compatability.

Racerboy took a meter and expected the mile... My reaction to him... was the TEAM's reaction... not only my own. You cannot personalize it to being "Kpt. Lehmann's" sole reaction.

I didn't respond to the AOTD representative's thread because I can only be in one place at a time. Between 60-65 hours per week at my RL job, school, and clinical rotations... I have to prioritize my time... leaving many things unanswered for a time. That's life... not me blowing someone off. No one here pays my rent or puts fuel in my car.

Regarding cooperation, you are not able to comment without conjecture, on how much or how little we've done to assist others external to the team. You are infact oblivious to it because you are not privy to team communications. We do so privately. We don't ring church bells when we do such things.

You responded to my post before it was complete.

(still typing... don't want to time out... gimme a minute please)

Fair enough on all counts. With exception of the last, "you responded before it was complete". Second time I have seen this and suspect it is part part of your sig. Might be wrong. There is one issue however and it is the "privy to team communications". Some do not like that. They feel files created by others are being used and sold as GWX's own. This is all I can say. RFB is an open forum. Help yourself. Nothing to hide, nothing privy. Sometimes church bells are good. I do see church bells from the crew in their threads. Bits and pieces. One in particular concerned the planes being added. That thread turned into the Sisten Chapel of bells. But, that is good for the community. It helps satisfy their wants and desires. Also knowing something good is coming. And speaking for myself, it is always is good if it is coming from the GWX Team. I can not deny that at all.

As far as responding with fatique....yep, this thing has gone on long enough. It is tiresome to say the least. Again, the fellas in SH4 want an atta boy and do not want to be brushed off to the side. They prefer the PTO. They do not want to be put in the corner. In good faith, the made the PTO compatible with the new 1.5 uboat add on. They really did not have to. This could have stopped at patch 1.4 much like SH3 did. But the persist and have a want/desire to please the uses but also want the users to be a part of it as well....hence the bell ringing and hey, give this beta a go.

Thank you for responding and hope you see the point these fellas are attempting to make. In this world of sour crap, no need to come to Subsim were it is a release for most and endure more bitterness. Help and be helped.

[AVGWarhawk]

Not the sole one but you directed your post elsewhere

I could go on but theres no point debating with you is there
We all know which side your loyalties lie on

Meh

:zzz:

Your posts are very telling...specifically, 'loyalties' there in lies the problem....us verses them...and I'm darn sure coming out on top to boot. Circle the wagons boys. This is how I read your post. It is our hope that this "loyalties" you have posted stops at the doorstep of SH4. Mod war and loyalties are not wanted. Please leave the loyalties at the door along with your shoes...we are attempting to keep a clean house. Your are bolstering the mod war with response like this. Hence my response a few post back that would upset or make you aghast. I detect you are upset because you do not see how the thread progress as I. For that, I'm truly sorry. KL has posted and his post is fair in all respects with exception of one that I responed to. I let it rest between he and I because 65 hours a week working sucks. Been there and done it.

[AVGWarhawk]

If some feel that the project has gotten too big... they will continue to feel that way. Not a darn thing we can do about that. What some will describe as malicious... we may feel is simply defending our honor.


I understand this is your baby and like parents, they defend their babies. No fault there.

Bottom line though. If you don't like what we produce... don't use it. If you can't stand us... don't read our posts. Nothing we can do will take away your interests or free will... or vice versa. Given these thoughts... It seems to me that it would be rather easy to be philisophical about it ALL. Besides, this kind of discussion was bound to happen sooner or later.


It is not a matter of not liking what you produce. It is a grand mod in all aspects and I speak truth on this matter. What the SH4 modders do not want happen is SH4 turning into a 100% uboat sim and the SH4 mod forum to be nothing but Uboats. They want to share the forum as brothers who have an interest in submersible. No us verses them. Many have waited for years for a PTO sim. Here it is....6 months later, here is a uboat add on. Back to square on as they thought but in all reality....the PTO goes on! So, all of this is really senseless to be sure. Anyway, you are correct, discussion on this matter need to be brought to the table. Thanks for and listening. I hope I have given the general consensus on what the modders in SH4 feeling at the moment. I believe you do as you also defend you honor as much as they want to defend theirs.


Cheers for now.


Same to you as you are looking at 65 hours next week. :x arrrrhhhhhgggg that sucks.


Oh shoot, edit here, I guess you get timed out when posting. Very odd. I do not know of anyone else that happens too. Anyway, now I understand your last sentence about hanging on before I get timed out. It was not my intention to start beating my keyboard before you were finished.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Just a request. Would you mind quoting my entire post instead of pulling bits out of context?

It really can change the meaning of what I wrote.:-?

g'nite all

[THE_MASK]

AVG, I can only suppose that moderators are idiots...
... and for quite some time now, .. Infact as sole reaction.

You are infact ogre crap. I can't describe how tired I am of it myself.

The thing is guys, is as Privateer stated. We are not going away. We've developed a system that frightens people sometimes


Cheers for now.

<zips up bunker coat> Tried to quote but unfortunately something went wrong and only quoted certain words .

[kylesplanet]

I am sure some of you will say this is some old man who resist change. Well it is not the case at all.
I bought SH4 spent quite a bit of my money to upgrade my system so I could run it. It is a great sim and I enjoy it very much. I was and remain a big fan of SHCE/SH1. I always hoped there with be a new or even a replacement for SH!. What I did not buy was another U-Boat sim, but apparently any improvements to SH4 will only be in the form of German Boats and missions. Why can't there be improvements to the original SH4, and yes I have patch 1.4. There are already 3 U-Boat sims. I must be out of step wanting to play U.S. Submarines.
This is a very big disappointment to me. I entered the Navy in 1958 an served on Nuclear Subs for many years, I was influenced by the Co's and Chiefs that had served in the boats in WWII, they were OUR inspiration and OUR model, we wanted to be as good as they were. I believe we took this example with us as we fought the "Cold War", and no we did not sink enemy ships we gathered a hell of a lot of intelligence that made a difference. People say we won the Cold War and now we are on the eve of another one with China, I hope the present day "Brothers Of the Dolphins" take us as there role model and have the same success as we did.
Please let's show some fair play and work on improvement's for SH4. I am not attacking U-Boat sims, I just want to play my country's subs.

Thanks,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

There is a bright future for the fleetboats Sub Sailor so don't get down in the dumps to far. It is probably true that UBI will go with the uboats and will simply throw the PTO a cookie with future addons like say a new icon on the screen or maybe a different hat or something but don't underestimate the modders we have for the PTO. NO SINGLE PERSON knows as much about the SH4 structure as Ducimus and the things that the RFB team is doing is incredible to say the least. I would also be afraid to even guess how much time Lurker has spent on this.

I bought that silly addon because I wanted to support the SH4 series and I knew the mods would be forced to move in that direction but I also anticipated the PTO to be taken care of by the wonderful modders here. I think everything will be OK and in the end, just like in real life, the US campaign against the Japs will be successful and the uboats will end up on the sea floor, just like it ought to be. And one day, maybe we can have a surrender mod and remind everybody exactly who came out on top and who went to see Davey Jones.:cool:

[melnibonian]

I think everything will be OK and in the end, just like in real life, the US campaign against the Japs will be successful and the uboats will end up on the sea floor, just like it ought to be. And one day, maybe we can have a surrender mod and remind everybody exactly who came out on top and who went to see Davey Jones.:cool:
As long as I have fun playing with both Pacific and Atlantic Boats (well a bit more with the Atlantic actually) I am happy and I don't care if I need to surrender in the end. ;) :p :D

But seriously Ron you should try the TM Mod. It is really good and I am sure you will enjoy it :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

Just a request. Would you mind quoting my entire post instead of pulling bits out of context?

It really can change the meaning of what I wrote.:-?

g'nite all

No problem at all Kpt. Some of that due to the time out issue you experience I suspect when getting your point across. If some of the posts seemingly look out of context it was not intentional and I did not know a timeout caused you headaches when attempting to getting a post up. As you recognized, fatique plays a part as well. Again, not intentional. If there is a part you wish to be revisited I will certainly will revisit.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Before the moderatorship prematurely slams a big lock on this thread... (and I am not being malicious with anything I write here)
Just to be clear I had no intention of locking the thread last night, and some here did take a step back :yep: As well, I can't speak for the other Moderator's here, but I am sure they feel the same way with regards to all of this, they want to see it end in a positive manner.

I disagree that nothing is being accomplished here.
Read the below, I don't disagree.

Move on folks, nothing is being accomplished here, not tonight anyway, hopefully in the future that will change.
Anyhow I have no doubt that this stuff will eventually work itself out, and thankfully with SH4 eventually folks will have the option of going with the PTO, ATO or both if they so choose.

Again, these are exciting times, here's to the future :up:


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

I am sure some of you will say this is some old man who resist change. Well it is not the case at all.
I bought SH4 spent quite a bit of my money to upgrade my system so I could run it. It is a great sim and I enjoy it very much. I was and remain a big fan of SHCE/SH1. I always hoped there with be a new or even a replacement for SH!. What I did not buy was another U-Boat sim, but apparently any improvements to SH4 will only be in the form of German Boats and missions. Why can't there be improvements to the original SH4, and yes I have patch 1.4. There are already 3 U-Boat sims. I must be out of step wanting to play U.S. Submarines.
This is a very big disappointment to me. I entered the Navy in 1958 an served on Nuclear Subs for many years, I was influenced by the Co's and Chiefs that had served in the boats in WWII, they were OUR inspiration and OUR model, we wanted to be as good as they were. I believe we took this example with us as we fought the "Cold War", and no we did not sink enemy ships we gathered a hell of a lot of intelligence that made a difference. People say we won the Cold War and now we are on the eve of another one with China, I hope the present day "Brothers Of the Dolphins" take us as there role model and have the same success as we did.
Please let's show some fair play and work on improvement's for SH4. I am not attacking U-Boat sims, I just want to play my country's subs.

Thanks,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

There is a bright future for the fleetboats Sub Sailor so don't get down in the dumps to far. It is probably true that UBI will go with the uboats and will simply throw the PTO a cookie with future addons like say a new icon on the screen or maybe a different hat or something but don't underestimate the modders we have for the PTO. NO SINGLE PERSON knows as much about the SH4 structure as Ducimus and the things that the RFB team is doing is incredible to say the least. I would also be afraid to even guess how much time Lurker has spent on this.

I bought that silly addon because I wanted to support the SH4 series and I knew the mods would be forced to move in that direction but I also anticipated the PTO to be taken care of by the wonderful modders here. I think everything will be OK and in the end, just like in real life, the US campaign against the Japs will be successful and the uboats will end up on the sea floor, just like it ought to be. And one day, maybe we can have a surrender mod and remind everybody exactly who came out on top and who went to see Davey Jones.:cool:

I would not say the add on was silly but everyone has the right to speak what they think about it. It did add more for the fleet boats but more importantly, the add on delivered a stable game. The past 12 months of tweaking this and that are now over. I can honestly say I have experienced no more than 5 CTD with SH4. Some of those CTD induced by me as a matter of fact. So, $10.00 for a stable game prevented me from searching and looking for better computer parts or entire computer. $10.00 saved me $1500.00. Not a bad return at all. To add, it introduced the entire hemisphere for the uboats and for the uboat fans to enjoy. Is that really such a bad thing? Your last paragraph is the crux of the matter, who is better than who, this boat is better then that boat. The 'us versus them' issue. No one needs to be reminded who is on the bottom and who is enjoying the sunshine. It is all in the history books. A world war that is over yet continues in a submersible simulation on this forum. Very odd indeed. We are looking to not just co-exist between theaters but be one community enjoying the interest and study of this branch of the service during that time. Just as I pointed out Bigboywooly's "us versus them" type loyalty I need to do so here. Gentlemen, it is a game turned into a simulation by some bright, talented people cleverly called modders. All of it gets tarnished when co-existence breaks down. I ask all to recognize both theaters exist, some have an undying love for one or the other or both. Sometimes that passion get the better of us. If the uboats do not interest you, no need to read the posts about it. Same for the fleets. Certainly, there is no need to have a commando raid because you are feeling out of sorts on that particular day. This is not the place to come and get a bad day off your chest. All I ask is members to be respectful and leave the playground antagonism on the playground.

[Bewolf]

I am sure some of you will say this is some old man who resist change. Well it is not the case at all.
I bought SH4 spent quite a bit of my money to upgrade my system so I could run it. It is a great sim and I enjoy it very much. I was and remain a big fan of SHCE/SH1. I always hoped there with be a new or even a replacement for SH!. What I did not buy was another U-Boat sim, but apparently any improvements to SH4 will only be in the form of German Boats and missions. Why can't there be improvements to the original SH4, and yes I have patch 1.4. There are already 3 U-Boat sims. I must be out of step wanting to play U.S. Submarines.
This is a very big disappointment to me. I entered the Navy in 1958 an served on Nuclear Subs for many years, I was influenced by the Co's and Chiefs that had served in the boats in WWII, they were OUR inspiration and OUR model, we wanted to be as good as they were. I believe we took this example with us as we fought the "Cold War", and no we did not sink enemy ships we gathered a hell of a lot of intelligence that made a difference. People say we won the Cold War and now we are on the eve of another one with China, I hope the present day "Brothers Of the Dolphins" take us as there role model and have the same success as we did.
Please let's show some fair play and work on improvement's for SH4. I am not attacking U-Boat sims, I just want to play my country's subs.

Thanks,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)
There is a bright future for the fleetboats Sub Sailor so don't get down in the dumps to far. It is probably true that UBI will go with the uboats and will simply throw the PTO a cookie with future addons like say a new icon on the screen or maybe a different hat or something but don't underestimate the modders we have for the PTO. NO SINGLE PERSON knows as much about the SH4 structure as Ducimus and the things that the RFB team is doing is incredible to say the least. I would also be afraid to even guess how much time Lurker has spent on this.

I bought that silly addon because I wanted to support the SH4 series and I knew the mods would be forced to move in that direction but I also anticipated the PTO to be taken care of by the wonderful modders here. I think everything will be OK and in the end, just like in real life, the US campaign against the Japs will be successful and the uboats will end up on the sea floor, just like it ought to be. And one day, maybe we can have a surrender mod and remind everybody exactly who came out on top and who went to see Davey Jones.:cool:
I would not say the add on was silly but everyone has the right to speak what they think about it. It did add more for the fleet boats but more importantly, the add on delivered a stable game. The past 12 months of tweaking this and that are now over. I can honestly say I have experienced no more than 5 CTD with SH4. Some of those CTD induced by me as a matter of fact. So, $10.00 for a stable game prevented me from searching and looking for better computer parts or entire computer. $10.00 saved me $1500.00. Not a bad return at all. To add, it introduced the entire hemisphere for the uboats and for the uboat fans to enjoy. Is that really such a bad thing? Your last paragraph is the crux of the matter, who is better than who, this boat is better then that boat. The 'us versus them' issue. No one needs to be reminded who is on the bottom and who is enjoying the sunshine. It is all in the history books. A world war that is over yet continues in a submersible simulation on this forum. Very odd indeed. We are looking to not just co-exist between theaters but be one community enjoying the interest and study of this branch of the service during that time. Just as I pointed out Bigboywooly's "us versus them" type loyalty I need to do so here. Gentlemen, it is a game turned into a simulation by some bright, talented people cleverly called modders. All of it gets tarnished when co-existence breaks down. I ask all to recognize both theaters exist, some have an undying love for one or the other or both. Sometimes that passion get the better of us. If the uboats do not interest you, no need to read the posts about it. Same for the fleets. Certainly, there is no need to have a commando raid because you are feeling out of sorts on that particular day. This is not the place to come and get a bad day off your chest. All I ask is members to be respectful and leave the playground antagonism on the playground.

And there I had to force myself not to sharply reply to the post you quoted. Nice summary, good post.

But I think this thread really wandered of it's rail. I still wonder, are there already some visions floating around the GWX team has where to lead the development? Can we expect most of the features from GWX2.1 beeing reproduced in the SHIV? Or is there a different scope alltogether? Any tinkering of ideas what to do with the new features SHIV offers over SHIII, or is this too early a time to ask for that, or at all given the private nature of GWX development? Some unbinding comments would be nice just to calm down the little exited child in us for this huge endeavor =)

[Rockin Robbins]

We are poor little lambs
Who have lost our way.
Baa! Baa! Baa!
We are little black sheep
Who have gone astray.
Baa! Baa! Baa!

Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Damned from here to eternity
God have mercy on such as we.
Baa! Baa! Baa!

Ok, everybody ready to sing it? All right!:up: Let's go.

<SH4 modders (whoever you are!)>
We are poor little lambs
Who have lost our way.

<Everybody!!!!>
Baa! Baa! Baa!

<Ducimus solo!>
We are little black sheep
Who have gone astray.

<Everybody!!!!>
Baa! Baa! Baa!

<KL and the Merry GWXers!!!>
Gentlemen songsters off on a spree
Damned from here to eternity

<All together now!!>
God have mercy on such as we.
Baa! Baa! Baa!

We are warriors with the same love. Let us not love it to death.

[Penelope_Grey]

And there I had to force myself not to sharply reply to the post you quoted. Nice summary, good post.

But I think this thread really wandered of it's rail. I still wonder, are there already some visions floating around the GWX team has where to lead the development? Can we expect most of the features from GWX2.1 beeing reproduced in the SHIV? Or is there a different scope alltogether? Any tinkering of ideas what to do with the new features SHIV offers over SHIII, or is this too early a time to ask for that, or at all given the private nature of GWX development? Some unbinding comments would be nice just to calm down the little exited child in us for this huge endeavor =)

Nothing is set in stone as per your questions Bewolf. But there will be announcements as and when. :up:

[Rockin Robbins]

I still wonder, are there already some visions floating around the GWX team has where to lead the development? Can we expect most of the features from GWX2.1 beeing reproduced in the SHIV? Or is there a different scope alltogether? Any tinkering of ideas what to do with the new features SHIV offers over SHIII, or is this too early a time to ask for that, or at all given the private nature of GWX development? Some unbinding comments would be nice just to calm down the little exited child in us for this huge endeavor =)
I must return to my refrain. GW does business in a quality way. They do not recreate the wheel. I predict that we will be surprised by what they release, especially if we're looking for a port of SH3/GWX2. GW is better than that. For some reason this observation is divisive.

The second part of my refrain: GW is committed to releasing a finished product. We won't hear much about what they're up to before it is almost ready for release. It would be limiting their ability to research and produce new stuff for them to announce ahead of time what they will discover. In the process of building, easy stuff will manifest difficult side effects and become impossible. Things not dreamed of will be discovered that change the entire flavor of the project. Raising false hopes by premature chest beating destroys trust. GW will not do that. They are too committed to exceeding the expectations of their users.

Conclusions drawn from my second part include "divisive and abusive" things I have said in this thread. In order not to prematurely spill the beans and build false hopes based on the current state of their project, they will not be sharing goodies with outside modders at that time. The reasoning will be that it will start a discussion of "What is GW going to do" among the more open society of modders that are presently in SH4. This would create expectation of certain things players will expect from their release, raising the false hopes that would damage GW's reputation.

If they ask for outside help it will be in a black box manner so no false rumors can result. If you are an SH4 modder and are approached like that, I would suggest you give serious thought toward helping them. We have two choices in life: either we owe others or they owe us. Better that they owe us. Don't be the bad guy.

So Bewolf, I can't speak for GW. I know some of the people involved. I have been to the GW inner sanctum and had a long and fruitful conversation with Kapt Lehmann. I saw no monsters there, just a lot of hard work being done, even while we had our mostly recreational conversation, there were constant interruptions from team members consulting about one thing or another. No monsters. A consistent workmanlike, well organized factory feel built around the personality of Kapt Lehmann. He said himself above that tinkering with the underlying organizational zietgeist would destroy GW. I concur. They have much to lose by adopting the methods of SH4 modders.

I'm not going into the incompatibility stuff that people thought was so hateful before, but I will repeat my best analogy: diesel fuel and fertilizer. They're both very beneficial, but when they are mixed you get a boom! Better to let the fertilizer grow food and the diesel fuel power the trucks to take that food to the market.

So my position that mixing the SH4 modders and GW group into one big happy family being impossible is not some hateful comment as some have characterized it. There is a good reason GW is the way it is and there is a good reason the SH4 modding community is the way it is. Let them work separately and cooperate when they can. And be prepared for wonderful things.

I think I've said all this before!

[Gezoes]

I think it's way too early to say what GWX will be like in SH4... give 'em time. They do this for us, the submarine nuts :up:

Hell, they just finished GWX 2.1! I love their work!

I'm starting to feel that if some people don't get their head out of their *** they might scrap it altogether :huh:

[Onkel Neal]

I don't see any reason why GWX cannot mod SH4 to their heart's content. They are talented and dedicated craftsmen (and women, sorry Pen :)) A GWX SH4 version will not negate any of the existing excellent SH4 mods, it just gives a SUBSIM member another cool option to enhance his playing experience. If one mod proves more popular than another, it does not diminish the less popular mod one bit.

The concept that one modder or mod team "owns" a particular game is nuts. I respect all modders who create interesting stuff. Let's work together and cooperate, and we all gain.

Neal
Subsim

[CaptainHaplo]

SH4 with GWX = fun. SH4 with TMO or RFB = fun, SH4 with RSRD = fun

Just different flavors in different areas. Lots of great modders doing what they feel is best - end result - community wins. Everyone has their own thing, whether its structured and intelligence controlled development - or not.

It doesn't matter how these things come about other than saying thanks to the folks that provide em.

So all of ya hush and load your games and go back to havin some fun!

[Jimbuna]

I don't see any reason why GWX cannot mod SH4 to their heart's content. They are talented and dedicated craftsmen (and women, sorry Pen :)) A GWX SH4 version will not negate any of the existing excellent SH4 mods, it just gives a SUBSIM member another cool option to enhance his playing experience. If one mod proves more popular than another, it does not diminish the less popular mod one bit.

The concept that one modder or mod team "owns" a particular game is nuts. I respect all modders who create interesting stuff. Let's work together and cooperate, and we all gain.

Neal
Subsim

Precisely http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

Now if only just..... http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9425/praydl5rp5.gif

[Rockin Robbins]

The fun will be when the mods are released. Can we avoid a MultiSH4 setup? Can we find a way to coordinate the creations of different groups so that they will be able to coexist in the same SH4 installation?

That could be a daunting challenge. Because of the design of the game itself and its unfortunate incomplete separation of U-Boat and Fleet Boat parameters, it may end up being impossible to enjoy all the benefits of whatever GW comes up with and whatever the Fleet Boaters build.

This will not be a reflection on any modders, but a reflection of bad choices in game design, forcing a choice between U-Boat or Fleet Boat emphasis. For instance, all radio messages currently come from COMSUBPAC, even if you are in a U-Boat. I'm not saying Lockwood is a bad guy, but that is just plain inappropriate. Making the change to BdU results in Fleet Boats receiving their orders from Admiral Donitz! How many more snafus like that wait to be found? Can we make up a startup script that asks if you are going to play as U-Boat or Fleet Boat and then JSGMEs in the appropriate goodies, including loading screen? If not, can installation programs be built that automate a dual Fleet Boat/U-Boat installation of SH4, including patching to current levels?

We can leave all that for later. Now, let's just sit back on this beach with an appropriate adult beverage and see what the UBers and FBers come up with! DJFL, rustle up some of those Caribbean drinks. Here you go Onkel Neal! Where the hell is that reggae band?

[Bewolf]

I still wonder, are there already some visions floating around the GWX team has where to lead the development? Can we expect most of the features from GWX2.1 beeing reproduced in the SHIV? Or is there a different scope alltogether? Any tinkering of ideas what to do with the new features SHIV offers over SHIII, or is this too early a time to ask for that, or at all given the private nature of GWX development? Some unbinding comments would be nice just to calm down the little exited child in us for this huge endeavor =)
I must return to my refrain. GW does business in a quality way. They do not recreate the wheel. I predict that we will be surprised by what they release, especially if we're looking for a port of SH3/GWX2. GW is better than that. For some reason this observation is divisive.

The second part of my refrain: GW is committed to releasing a finished product. We won't hear much about what they're up to before it is almost ready for release. It would be limiting their ability to research and produce new stuff for them to announce ahead of time what they will discover. In the process of building, easy stuff will manifest difficult side effects and become impossible. Things not dreamed of will be discovered that change the entire flavor of the project. Raising false hopes by premature chest beating destroys trust. GW will not do that. They are too committed to exceeding the expectations of their users.

Conclusions drawn from my second part include "divisive and abusive" things I have said in this thread. In order not to prematurely spill the beans and build false hopes based on the current state of their project, they will not be sharing goodies with outside modders at that time. The reasoning will be that it will start a discussion of "What is GW going to do" among the more open society of modders that are presently in SH4. This would create expectation of certain things players will expect from their release, raising the false hopes that would damage GW's reputation.

If they ask for outside help it will be in a black box manner so no false rumors can result. If you are an SH4 modder and are approached like that, I would suggest you give serious thought toward helping them. We have two choices in life: either we owe others or they owe us. Better that they owe us. Don't be the bad guy.

So Bewolf, I can't speak for GW. I know some of the people involved. I have been to the GW inner sanctum and had a long and fruitful conversation with Kapt Lehmann. I saw no monsters there, just a lot of hard work being done, even while we had our mostly recreational conversation, there were constant interruptions from team members consulting about one thing or another. No monsters. A consistent workmanlike, well organized factory feel built around the personality of Kapt Lehmann. He said himself above that tinkering with the underlying organizational zietgeist would destroy GW. I concur. They have much to lose by adopting the methods of SH4 modders.

I'm not going into the incompatibility stuff that people thought was so hateful before, but I will repeat my best analogy: diesel fuel and fertilizer. They're both very beneficial, but when they are mixed you get a boom! Better to let the fertilizer grow food and the diesel fuel power the trucks to take that food to the market.

So my position that mixing the SH4 modders and GW group into one big happy family being impossible is not some hateful comment as some have characterized it. There is a good reason GW is the way it is and there is a good reason the SH4 modding community is the way it is. Let them work separately and cooperate when they can. And be prepared for wonderful things.

I think I've said all this before!

Oi. That is not quite what I expected as an answer, but pretty insightful nevertheless. Many thanks for taking your time =)

[Penelope_Grey]

I don't see any reason why GWX cannot mod SH4 to their heart's content. They are talented and dedicated craftsmen (and women, sorry Pen :)) A GWX SH4 version will not negate any of the existing excellent SH4 mods, it just gives a SUBSIM member another cool option to enhance his playing experience. If one mod proves more popular than another, it does not diminish the less popular mod one bit.

The concept that one modder or mod team "owns" a particular game is nuts. I respect all modders who create interesting stuff. Let's work together and cooperate, and we all gain.

Neal
Subsim

Thankyou Neal for not forgetting me :up:

Very good post too! Coolness is to be encouraged IMO

[Bewolf]

I don't see any reason why GWX cannot mod SH4 to their heart's content. They are talented and dedicated craftsmen (and women, sorry Pen :)) A GWX SH4 version will not negate any of the existing excellent SH4 mods, it just gives a SUBSIM member another cool option to enhance his playing experience. If one mod proves more popular than another, it does not diminish the less popular mod one bit.

The concept that one modder or mod team "owns" a particular game is nuts. I respect all modders who create interesting stuff. Let's work together and cooperate, and we all gain.

Neal
Subsim

Could we get that sticky as a single post somewhere, please?

[melnibonian]

I don't see any reason why GWX cannot mod SH4 to their heart's content. They are talented and dedicated craftsmen (and women, sorry Pen :)) A GWX SH4 version will not negate any of the existing excellent SH4 mods, it just gives a SUBSIM member another cool option to enhance his playing experience. If one mod proves more popular than another, it does not diminish the less popular mod one bit.

The concept that one modder or mod team "owns" a particular game is nuts. I respect all modders who create interesting stuff. Let's work together and cooperate, and we all gain.

Neal
Subsim

Could we get that sticky as a single post somewhere, please?
Amen to that :yep: :up:

[jdkbph]

Hey, I'm sure we'd all prefer to join hands and sing Kumbaya...

...but from a practical point of view does it not make sense to split the Mods Workshop forum into two subforums? One for PTO/USN Sub Ops and one for ETO/U-boats?

From a mod USERS perspective, it was already getting crowded and complicated sorting through this mod and that looking for the perfect build. But now with all the U-boat stuff mixed in... well, I'm experiencing "option overload".

Doing so might also help reduce some of the "friction"...

JD

[Jimbuna]

[quote=Bewolf] I have been to the GW inner sanctum and had a long and fruitful conversation with Kapt Lehmann. I saw no monsters there, just a lot of hard work being done, even while we had our mostly recreational conversation, there were constant interruptions from team members consulting about one thing or another. No monsters. A consistent workmanlike, well organized factory feel built around the personality of Kapt Lehmann.

I'm just going over this thread and in particular your post and I must say I'm glad I did because it's a really good read.

One question though http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gif

I don't recall your visit, I must have been offline or at work, which is probably why you didn't see any monsters.....how did you get past the claymores and anti personnel mines....has lehmann been deactivating the force field without asking me first http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img134/9742/angry8se2.gif

You should pop in again when you feel like it, we honestly don't bite. But I guess you already realise that. Hell, even Neal pops in from time to time.
If I'm around on your next visit I'll register you with the server if you like http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img412/4774/thumbsuplargeon1.gif

[Bewolf]

I have been to the GW inner sanctum and had a long and fruitful conversation with Kapt Lehmann. I saw no monsters there, just a lot of hard work being done, even while we had our mostly recreational conversation, there were constant interruptions from team members consulting about one thing or another. No monsters. A consistent workmanlike, well organized factory feel built around the personality of Kapt Lehmann.
I'm just going over this thread and in particular your post and I must say I'm glad I did because it's a really good read.

One question though http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gif

I don't recall your visit, I must have been offline or at work, which is probably why you didn't see any monsters.....how did you get past the claymores and anti personnel mines....has lehmann been deactivating the force field without asking me first http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img134/9742/angry8se2.gif

You should pop in again when you feel like it, we honestly don't bite. But I guess you already realise that. Hell, even Neal pops in from time to time.
If I'm around on your next visit I'll register you with the server if you like http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img412/4774/thumbsuplargeon1.gif



*cough*

you may want to work on your quotation :cool:

[Jimbuna]

It's actually more to do with personal vanity and the refusal to recognise the realisation I may be in need of glasses when typing and reading :lol:

[AVGWarhawk]

CaptainHaplo:


SH4 with GWX = fun. SH4 with TMO or RFB = fun, SH4 with RSRD = fun



This is the best equation I have seen all day. In fact, it is much more brilliant than E=MC2. Now, it I could balance my checkbook to look like this equation....all would be good.



I don't see any reason why GWX cannot mod SH4 to their heart's content. They are talented and dedicated craftsmen (and women, sorry Pen :)) A GWX SH4 version will not negate any of the existing excellent SH4 mods, it just gives a SUBSIM member another cool option to enhance his playing experience. If one mod proves more popular than another, it does not diminish the less popular mod one bit.

The concept that one modder or mod team "owns" a particular game is nuts. I respect all modders who create interesting stuff. Let's work together and cooperate, and we all gain.

Neal
Subsim


We all see EVERY reason for GWX to mod SH4:D .... lets face it...talented and imaginative. RFB/TMO/ROW/NSM/RSRD/OM/GUI(Sorry if I missed anyones mods)....also talented and imaginative. Let's be talented and imaginative together. Lay down the arms and pick up the mouse....get clicking!

Thanks for listen lady and gentlemen.

[jazman]

Any quality mods are welcome, as far as I am concerned. Why do people react so strongly to the GW team? Anywhere they show up in the SH4 side, flames start licking my monitor.

[Dowly]

Any quality mods are welcome, as far as I am concerned. Why do people react so strongly to the GW team? Anywhere they show up in the SH4 side, flames start licking my monitor.

Because GWX de-magnetized their fridge magnets. :yep: (oh and they are the spawns of the devil and eat little children too. ;))

[Jimbuna]

I have been to the GW inner sanctum and had a long and fruitful conversation with Kapt Lehmann. I saw no monsters there, just a lot of hard work being done, even while we had our mostly recreational conversation, there were constant interruptions from team members consulting about one thing or another. No monsters. A consistent workmanlike, well organized factory feel built around the personality of Kapt Lehmann.
I'm just going over this thread and in particular your post and I must say I'm glad I did because it's a really good read.

One question though http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gif

I don't recall your visit, I must have been offline or at work, which is probably why you didn't see any monsters.....how did you get past the claymores and anti personnel mines....has lehmann been deactivating the force field without asking me first http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img134/9742/angry8se2.gif

You should pop in again when you feel like it, we honestly don't bite. But I guess you already realise that. Hell, even Neal pops in from time to time.
If I'm around on your next visit I'll register you with the server if you like http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img412/4774/thumbsuplargeon1.gif



*cough*

you may want to work on your quotation :cool:


All sorted now......thanks for the heads up matey http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4351/salutewe6.gif

[AVGWarhawk]

Any quality mods are welcome, as far as I am concerned. Why do people react so strongly to the GW team? Anywhere they show up in the SH4 side, flames start licking my monitor.

Because GWX de-magnetized their fridge magnets. :yep: (oh and they are the spawns of the devil and eat little children too. ;))

Quite the card Dowly...I see stand up comedy in your future.:D Did you finish that skin for the 109? Jazman, this thread is an attempt to stop the flaming between both. It has been witnessed in the past of a gauntlet being dropped in a thread and off on the galant steed goes the dropper leaving a dusty trail. The challenge is taken and off the blazing flames of glory we go. We are looking to extinguish the flames, move on and be productive to a point were we can stand it anymore. We have one game called SH4 and one modding section to create a masterpiece as SH3 is with the modders who worked over the files like boxer. There will be sharing of this space with the guys who like the fleet boats and the PTO. These guys have been boxing the rounds for over a year. To some it feels like a new roommate has shown up and taken over the place. The place is big enough for all. In the end, I truly believe both theaters will benefit from each.

[jazman]

Any quality mods are welcome, as far as I am concerned. Why do people react so strongly to the GW team? Anywhere they show up in the SH4 side, flames start licking my monitor.

Because GWX de-magnetized their fridge magnets. :yep: (oh and they are the spawns of the devil and eat little children too. ;))

Quite the card Dowly...I see stand up comedy in your future.:D Did you finish that skin for the 109? Jazman, this thread is an attempt to stop the flaming between both. It has been witnessed in the past of a gauntlet being dropped in a thread and off on the galant steed goes the dropper leaving a dusty trail. The challenge is taken and off the blazing flames of glory we go. We are looking to extinguish the flames, move on and be productive to a point were we can stand it anymore.

I agree, I'm fairly new to SH, so I guess I missed the history. Maybe you could create a "GW: Abuse and Defend" thread, and at least it's quarantined, you could call it subsim's "red light district".

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Its good to see this thread calming down.

Returning to the OT for a bit here...

In a few days we will post a very general plan of what we intend to do using the SH4 platform.

Too tired to post anything meaningful tonight. My 12 hour shift on the rig today turned into 13 and a half instead... and tomorrow I've got 12 more hours on the rig... plus 12 hours clinical rotation in the ER as a student, immediately after I get off work.:doh:

My favorite trauma nurse is in charge tomorrow night though and said she'd take care of me. I wonder what that means.:hmm: (GOD she is soooo HOT! ... and a TOTAL sweetheart too.)

:arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!: :arrgh!:

Full moon weekend again though... we've been blowing and going for days at that. I'm tapped out.

Sorry for the ramble.

See you in a couple of days.

[JREX53]

You know I've been reading this thread and it is getting stupid.

There isn't that much different for either side. We all have the same thing in common.
To start of I am a fleet boat man, have been since I was a kid, when I read a book about submarines by Edward Beach.

We can be ATO or PTO, U-boat or Fleet boat, but there is one thing that we all are and that is what we need to concentrate on. We are people who love Sub Sims. We wouldn't be here if we weren't.

We as a community should have 1 goal to accomplish, that is to make this game the best game possible. I am 54 years old and I wish I could mod like you modders can, but I can't and I realize that.

But you modders have a responsibility to the community as a whole to make the game more realistic in any way possible. Now the modding world is evolving now, with the tools being developed now days, from S3D, menumaker, JXte, JSMGE. Tools like these are making modding easier and better. If there are tools out there being hoarded by someone that would benefit the modding community, that person, or people have a responsibility to bring it forth so the whole modding community can make the game better. You modders also have the responsibility to teach the future modders how to mod, with tutorials, such as been done by Mush Martin, Skwasjer, and Ducimus.

We as non-modders have a responisibility also, and I admit I do not, to read the readmes that come with the mods we use. If we have a problem we should not berate a mod because it does weird things. We should find out why it is happening. Is it a conflict with another mod, if so figure out how to fix it or seek some advice. If there is a true problem, we need to let the modder know in a constructive not
destructive way.

We as a community need to make this game so good, that when Ubi comes out with SH5 that there will be more people, other than us, buying the game. To do this the best was is exposure like "YouTube." If we can accomplish this then the future will look brighter for future versions of Silent Hunter.

But we need to quit this bickering amongst ourselves, and quit believing that one side is better then the other, because you aren't. This is a community of Sub Sim lovers. Lets act like it and make this the best game out there.

Edit: One last thing to say. Remember how LeoVampire (RIP) was. He was generous, helpful, ready to help anyone in need, taking that extra step if needed. Think of all the people he helped from the lowlest bilge rat to a moderator every once in a while. We need to start acting more like him instead of this petty bickering that is going on.

[MarkShot]

KL(mostly for KL) and all,
...
Markshot, looking to understand the files was summarily dismissed by the GWX crew. His sig now reads, "will not post because possible bullying/attack. Go look him up in the captains roster. I do not think he has posted in a month. Nice job.



...so I suppose that when people get nasty with us that we continue cooperating or remain impassive regardless?
...
Markshot posted his opinions, and subsequently got upset when we scrutinized his methodology.
...


I just became aware of this thread a day or so ago.

It's about time that someone has finally called attention to the aggressive and bullying tactics used by GWX to promote GWX and supress anything or anyone perceived as not being aligned with GWX's interests. Now, perhaps it is wrong for me to make such a sweeping comment about the behavior of the GWX Team when maybe this behavior is most clearly ascribed to a single individual. However, that individual, Kpt. Lehmann, has described himself as the official leader and spokesperson of this group.

Since my name has been dragged into this, let's have an honest review of what really happened, shall we:

(1) I was someone with a lot of sub games who happened to be familiar with a number of game engines beyond simply SH3. This includes: AOD, SH1, SH2, SC, and DW. Additionally, I have 30 years in systems management/development and love to discuss games - their interfaces, game play, mechanics, etc... Finally, I've beta tested well known wargames and am a part owner of a strategy game development studio.

(2) I made numerous posts regarding SH3/GWX no different in style than my posts regarding SC, DW, SH2/PA, ... They were all extremely polite and respectful of the hard work and talent which is manifest by GWX. Reading them, any objective person, would be left with no doubt that I was an enthusiastic player and fan of GWX 1.03 and 2.00. Of course, I clearly felt uninhibited to discuss SH3's and GWX's game play and behavior both viewed in isolation and viewed against other games and the historical record. This is afterall www.subsim.com and the charter states that a free discussion of subs and sub games is the reason for the site's existence.

(3) Furthermore, KL knew me from direct interaction via PM. He knew that I harbored no malice to GWX and greatly appreciated their work. In December 2007, he even turned down an offer of free copies of promotional copies of games developed/published by my company (part owner), AGE Studio, in appreciation to GWX team members residing in the USA (due to controlling postage expenses).

(4) Despite all of this, I had the audacity to discuss the mechanisms of how radar detection behaved in 1943 game play. How it impacted the difficulty level for the player. Something I observed about that actually provided the player with even greater resolution on the enemy than prior to 1943 ... which some GWX members thought might be regarded as "an exploit" or a weakness in SH3's game engine. It was for this that KL on behalf of the GWX Team decided that I needed to be rudely put in my place and taught a lesson in the use of the power he wielded as a high profile and visible spokeperson of one of the foremost mods and successful sub sim mods of all time. Yes, that's right. Even an appreciative fan and supporter of GWX could not be allowed to discuss the workings of the game in a free and open manner in a general discuss forum.

(5) From his platform KL rudely characterized me as someone bent on doing harm to GWX which any objective reader could clearly see otherwise and which he personally had sufficient knowledge via PMs to know otherwise. My politeness and appreciation of GWX was simply dismissed as chocolate coated "poo". I was to be made an example of since I dared to do more than simply praise, I dared to discuss and analyze.

(6) Lastly, the thread was quickly locked. I do not know why, but I certainly made it appear that GWX/KL was in control of the SH3 Forums and any discussions which would take place there. I had been taught my lesson. I no longer felt enthusiastic about discussing SH3 or GWX with other members. I had been made an example and now knew better.

For anyone who wants to review the indicident for themselves, here it is:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133192

---

I am posting here to set the record straight, since I think the www.subsim.com mods sincerely want to make the site a venue where all polite and respectful members can participate and share their love of subs, history, and sub simulations/games. I wish to acknowledge and support that effort.

I still continue to play GWX 2.00. It is a superb piece of work and those who have produced it are extremely talented. This includes KL who I have taken exception to his abuse of my good nature. I hope that we might be able to get past incident and enter into a new period where GWX does not need to be protected and defended from heretics which are bent on doing it harm. Such is not at all possible or plausible. GWX lives because of the fantastic piece of work it is and not due to active and aggressive defense of it in public forums.

If anything given the stature, size, and weight of the GWX Team, it would be well for it to learn to tread lightly. It's members are not simply ordinary forum members. Their participation on GWX have accorded them a special position in the Subsim universe. As such, like moderators, they should be more deferential, polite, and friendly in their posts than the average forum member, since they implicitly hold a higher status and regard than most. No harm will come to the mod or the team, and at the same time, the forums will once again open up for free discussion of the SH3/4 and all mods. GWX will continue to be one of the most popularly used and respected mods by many players of the game. Active defense and promotion will have proven totally unnecessary and perhaps even counter-productive.

[Dowly]

@Kpt.Lehmann

Goodie, cant wait to hear what you guys have in plans! :up:

@AVG

No, havent finished the skin yet. Had to make edit one of my old skins for use with the II/JG53 and kinda forgot the other one. :oops: Tho, I have it all saved so I can continue it whenever I feel like it. ;)

[Penelope_Grey]

MarkShot... At risk of backing up your theories about bullies and aggressive tactics, you have drawn the line in the sand here, and sadly... I have no choice but to cross it because you have only given one side of the story.

You present that thread as though its the sole occurance, but you know full well there were other threads and other series' of questions that you posed us. Questions, that we did our level best to answer for you, and to justify the reasons...

yet you came back each time with the same thing which you posted below;

I was someone with a lot of sub games who happened to be familiar with a number of game engines beyond simply SH3. This includes: AOD, SH1, SH2, SC, and DW. Additionally, I have 30 years in systems management/development and love to discuss games - their interfaces, game play, mechanics, etc... Finally, I've beta tested well known wargames and am a part owner of a strategy game development studio.

Nobody is trying to retract from your skills or your accomplishment. What was irritating the Team was the fact that you were pulling GWX apart highlighting this that and the next, but failing to treat other games in the same way. As has been said many times before there are limits to what can be done within the context of the SH3 engine. SH4 should present far greater opportunity but to quote a fellow Grey Wolf "SH3 doesn't quite give you enough lace to tie your shoes"

The Grey Wolves did their best and for nothing, and your critiques were wearing us down. Simple as that. While critiques are respected, all is asked that you try SH3 without GWX and see what its like.

Can we take criticism? Yes. Do we like it? Not Really.

The GWX Team is based on the freeware principle, what was made for SH3 was done free, and given free, and shared with the community. We are not, a professional software company like you have or work in... we are a bunch of fans doing what we can for the benefit of submarine sims. We are also only human.

The example you present, is about Radar. Try SH3 without GWX and Radar there is almost laughable. You were questioning and you were told it was the best could be done within the limits of the game engine. Everybody on GWX did their best, and bottom line is.

We are human, we have feelings too. And when someone continually criticises, and criticises then something has to give. We are under no obligation to take criticisms, but don't let it be said we don't listen to the community because we do our best to take aboard their suggestions.

We were and are grateful that you enjoy GWX as much as you do or did... but you can only take so much, and as polite as you were... you wore us down man! Your posts here and there on aspects of GWX that you were unhappy with, wore us down. Simple as.

Now you are here playing the victim? Its not fair... you don't have a right to play the victim, because right on up till that rader thread, we were polite with you too. As I say, sometimes you can only stand so much. I'm sorry its come to this, truly I am. But multiple critiques and probing questions by you got too much in the end, especially as you seemingly had no idea of what SH3 was before GWX.

Maybe you weren't handled in the best way, Im not going to say one way or another here on that, but, if you want a fresh start, Then that is fine. Because as a team we can do the same too.

[MarkShot]

Sorry, I've analyzed all games which I have played seriously. Go look up my posts on SH2/PA and Kriegstanz. However, the SH2/PA Team unlike GWX were eager to participate in discussion of SH2/PA limitations, behavior, mechanics, and ways to work around various issues. In fact, I was even able to come up with a few solutions due to their openess to discuss things.

Why cannot things like escort behavior, visibility, game play be discussed without it being perceived as an attack on the GWX Team?

Why must discussion of game play, tactics, flaws in the game engine, ... be taken as attacks?

Why is it that your team can only take bows, but cannot permit the freedom for players to simplyd discuss how the games works and how they play it?

Yes, I got that from KL and the rest of you that were tolerating my persistent analysis and discussion of the game. As far as I know, the forums are there for just such discussion by those who play these games.

The fact that I discuss the angles from which your sub is visible my the AI (and that it perhaps does not make logical sense) or differential LOS which is well understood concept in modeled in many ground combat games does not mean that GWX is being attacked and must be defended.

You have once again highlighted the paranoi and defensive attitude that permeates your team and prevents any serious discussion of SH3 or GWX in the forums under pain bullying. Someone needs to explain to you folks the basic difference between a mature conversation of software behavior and features and personal attacks on one's character and person. There is, in fact, a difference.

[MarkShot]

The Grey Wolves did their best and for nothing, and your critiques were wearing us down. Simple as that. While critiques are respected, all is asked that you try SH3 without GWX and see what its like.

Can we take criticism? Yes. Do we like it? Not Really.

I've never said that you folks have done anything but a superb job. However, that doesn't stop me from discussing how the game functions.

I've always said that GWX is far superior to stock SH3. That's why I hardly even bothered with the stock game.

Sadly, if I report that a DC blows the tail of the escort that drops its or that they shoot each other in a cross fire. Then, you folks take such observations as personal attacks.

No wonder why we have problems!? Well, there is nothing further I can do about it. You have been praise in every post I write and yet, it will never be sufficient for your folks unless I refrain from discussing any of the game's behavior and simply leave at the "GWX Team are gods and geniouses". Sorry, Penelope, you and the rest of your cohorts need to step back and get some perspective. You've been living so long in a world that you have custom created that you no longer are able to function in the larger social scene of a general purpose sub and game discussion site.

[NKVD-crazyivan]

;) This is a silent hunter 4 forum its all about the "good bad and ugly" of the mechanics of the game ...................

I enjoy and play both SH3 and SH4 and enjoy greatly the modders "big and small" and what you all have achieved and made these games into what they are today.

So lets keep this about SH4 and what you all can do to make it better for us the gammer who would like to but cant mod a tea spoon....;)

If you want to compare who has the biggest Torpedo PM each other and leave your ego's at the door and get on with making this game better ..................:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[MarkShot]

I want to be able to discuss SH4. The reason that the Subsim mods have jumped on this --- yes, the Subsim mods --- is because discussion of SH3 is no longer possible in the SH3 forum. With the arrival GWX and the "no discussion policy", it soon become hard and unwelcome to discuss SH4 freely here.

That is why the mods have raised this to keep this forum open and so that all modders can continue to participate in the growth of SH4 (not just one group).

[Bewolf]

Its good to see this thread calming down.

Returning to the OT for a bit here...

In a few days we will post a very general plan of what we intend to do using the SH4 platform.




Now that's what I was hoping to hear :up:

[Penelope_Grey]

You have once again highlighted the paranoi and defensive attitude that permeates your team and prevents any serious discussion of SH3 or GWX in the forums under pain bullying. Someone needs to explain to you folks the basic difference between a mature conversation of software behavior and features and personal attacks on one's character and person. There is, in fact, a difference.
We have a right to answer posts that are made against us or to us... your first post was such a post, hence, here I am.

If I highligted the paranoid or defensive attitude, it was only because you challenged in your first post somebody has to come and represent the team and answer such accusations. The fact of the matter is, you want to talk about software behaviour, you should have took it up with the SH3 Developers, not the GWX team. We didn't make the game, GWX just modified it. You were persisting in raising matters to us of which we had little to no say. GWX did everything it could within the limits of the SH3 engine. As I said above SH4 offers a lot more flexability.

But again I reinforce how the game functions is something the team has little control over. Its like the loading, it takes a while to load, there is no way to make it load any quicker without sacrificing content. SH3 is very much a case of sometimes having to rob Peter to pay Paul.

Sadly, if I report that a DC blows the tail of the escort that drops its or that they shoot each other in a cross fire. Then, you folks take such observations as personal attacks.

Thankyou but that there is complete rubbish. When that problem was found the team listened, and Privateer made a fix for that which went into 2.1, but was released early for 2.0 users in a 2.1 sneak peek thread. Nobody was made to wait longer than they had to for that. Once the fix was done, it was released.

Nobody was personally attacked for it. In fact, most of us were grateful it was found out, because we didn't find it.

No wonder why we have problems!? Well, there is nothing further I can do about it. You have been praise in every post I write and yet, it will never be sufficient for your folks unless I refrain from discussing any of the game's behavior and simply leave at the "GWX Team are gods and geniouses". Sorry, Penelope, you and the rest of your cohorts need to step back and get some perspective. You've been living so long in a world that you have custom created that you no longer are able to function in the larger social scene of a general purpose sub and game discussion site.
You have no clue of the sacrfices and things we have had to give up some of the team have sacrificed a hell of a lot more than others have. An arrogant thing you have said there. GWX is something we do as a hobby or for fun in our spare time. We are not under any obligations to do anything for anybody.

And for the record, I hate it when people call this team "Gods" we are no such things at all. Genius? Yes. Certainly there are a lot of very intelligent people here and to borrow Jimbuna's quote "no one of us is as clever as all of us"

If you want to criticise GWX then do so, however, what you apparantly are still failing to get is that we are not here to make this custom built for you or anybody else. What we do is for our Team and we share it with Subsim as its something that all of us on this team ALL OF US believe in. That being an historical recreation of the U-Boat war, the highs, the lows, the tragedy.

If you dont like GWX or aspects of it and you keep criticising, probing for answers, eventually somebody is going to tell you, if its as bad as that, don't play it.

I have no idea even now what it was you expected of us MS, to change things in the package just cause you say so, and you have all these credentials... it simply doesn't work like that. I don't care if people can't stand it, if somebody comes and says "GWX sucks, couldn't get to grips with it, I uninstalled it" Im not going to come and flame that person. Rather than nag and nag to get their own way, they did something about it.


Why is it that your team can only take bows, but cannot permit the freedom for players to simplyd discuss how the games works and how they play it?

We can courtsey now too as well as bow. New trick I have been teaching them. :up:

On a serious note, when people start posting ways to exploit the game it ruins it for everybody else who plays it, who doesn't want to know. True they have a choice of using it or not... but in a pinch you may just break your own rules.

Nobody stopped you talking about how you play the game or discussing how it works, its just decent courtesy to not post these exploits/cheats publically. The fact it was Kpt. Lehmann that brought it to your attention probably annoys you a lot. Were it some non-GWX team member you probably wouldn't feel as burned or attacked as you do?

I don't know, in any case I know that the team is not universally loved and adored and that is fine, I must reiterate that I didn't come here to fight with you, just to answer some of the claims and extend an olive branch.

If you want to carry on the grudge and maintain your position (as per your signature "SH3/???") then feel free. But please don't think you can drag our names through the mud as you did a few posts up and go without answer.

[Gezoes]

Its good to see this thread calming down.

Returning to the OT for a bit here...

In a few days we will post a very general plan of what we intend to do using the SH4 platform.



Now that's what I was hoping to hear :up:

Yes! I can't wait! And somebody give Markshot a tea cozy :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

Penelope:... to Markshot

I must reiterate that I didn't come here to fight with you, just to answer some of the claims and extend an olive branch.


Thanks Penelope. I appreciate the effort to clear the air on this story and close the book on it.

[Mush Martin]

To put in my two cents here.

Let me be clear from the beginning about my starting postition.
The GWX Team is made up of some fine people and some huge
talents several of whom im indebted to. Several of Whom I consider
Personal friends and One of whom I consider the marquis example
of what it means to be a good citizen here at subsim.(BBW)
I find the body of the GWX work Ingenious in its resourcefulness
Meticulous in its attention to detail, Totally Sincere in its commitment
to Quality, Thorough throughout in its scope, Breathtakingly Beautiful
in its result, And with a total and completely admirable, further to that
completely uprecendented commitment to user support, producing what
I consider to be the finest example of modding in the history of the sport.
It is indeed a Masterpiece that has deservingly supplanted the original
game as the standard to be met by The games sequel.
Quite Deservingly!

At Peril of losing a few friends though I am compelled to disagree sadly
about the treatment being rubbish Penny.

Quite frankly the exact same treatment by the exact same leadership
over the exact same issue has happened to me and for all intents and
purposes driven me off of the shIII forums as I consider the atmosphere
created by it on the forums socially abhorrent.

For an example of what I mean see the general tension emanating
from this thread before I chimed in.

It has almost driven me completely from subsim.

IMHO the players forums and modders forums are what should actually
be being enforced with benefit to all.

the difference to me between the two is if its in the manual its a player
issue if its not its a modder issue. the benefits for all with the moderators
enforcing posting discipline in both directions helps all.

in the first place the GWX team more so than any other body should
understand the constant redundencies of RTFM this I am certain is true.
the benefit of enforcing players to not post player issues on the mods forum is more time spent on development with less encumbrance to modders where Idea's can be tossed about with much less distraction
and those designated Public Relations types can do the support thing
over on the players forums.

(I'm suggesting password access to modders forums here Moderators)

regarding modders posting on the players forums I dont think there
has really ever been any consideration that this is detrimental but
IMO here we see the classic example, my experience is Identical to
Markshots and I wasnt posting anything against or about GWX team
or development I was posting tactics on a players forum and it should
never have even been an issue of discussion.

As for how to prevent the occurences of professional insult at the
implication of imperfection when a gamebreaking tactic is posted well
I confess I am a little light on good suggestions for this one other than
an emphasis to the moderators from management to police the regular
tribes for flaming campaigns a little more tightly under a new format.

There really isnt anything wrong with posting a game winning tactic
like show the peri alongside an enemy combatant to start a friendly
fire incident or shallow depths causing excited crews to blow their
sterns off.

as far as posting player tactics thats is IMO what the players forums
are for.

as for it ruining it for players IMO thats just an excuse used to post
what amounts to a semi regular and unrecognized flaming campaign.

if the players have the self discipline to play right then they do and
if they dont then they dont If I post a tactic and someone that hates
it uses it because it works well that just proves its a tactic worth posting.

if a player lacks self discipline to play by their own standard its not
the tactics fault.

in the end all of these are only games nothing more, not secret lives
or government projects nor the measure of a man. Games thats all.


M out.

[Jimbuna]

Its good to see this thread calming down.

Returning to the OT for a bit here...

In a few days we will post a very general plan of what we intend to do using the SH4 platform.



Now that's what I was hoping to hear :up:

Yes! I can't wait! And somebody give Markshot a tea cozy :rotfl:

I'll have you know I'm the only one allowed to wear a tea cozy here.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5931/balzdr2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A nice debate Pen and Markshot.

Today is Sunday, the day of peace. Can we all put the past behind us and move on now for the sake of peaceful co-existence.

Besides, Newcastle are 2-0 up at half time against Sunderland in the local derby.....now that is a matter much more important than life itself :yep:

@Pen...."None of us are as clever as all of us" ;)

@Markshot......Do you not think the bottom of your sig could be interpreted as baiting by some folk :hmm:

Let us all bear one common thought.....this is not RL.....tis a game, nothing more and nothing less.

Peaceful co-existence is the way forward http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Dowly]

Besides, Newcastle are 2-0 up at half time against Sunderland in the local derby.....now that is a matter much more important than life itself :yep:

Aye, our hockey team won the Swedes today too! Great game, we were losing 1-2 and IIRC 41sec before the end we managed to make the goal and just over 2 minutes to the overtime we bagged the winning goal! :rock:

[Bewolf]

Hm, reading the entries of Markshot, Penelope, Mush Martin and Captain Lehman I can't but help to feel of these folks are decent ppl with no basic hatemonger for each other.

On the contrary, having been on many different forums and having had to deal with a broad spectrum of opinions and attitudes, I gotta say the level of maturaty is particulary high in this forum, quite to the contrary of what I though in the beginning. The more does it suprise to observe such a debate, which appears to be motivated in parts by personal offense and the feeling of unjust treatment by either side.

As a mere observer I certainly lack the details to propperly judge the situation in every detail. But it seems a lot comes down to simple misunderstanding and basic attitudes to some subjects coming up here.

To give an example, one side considers the discussion of game exploits as ruining the game for those not willing to hear about it and thus spoil the game expirience, while the other side wants an open and ideology free discussion, not so much about game expirience, but game system.

Both side's POV in this regard are completly legit. It's a matter of how to approach the game itself. Some ppl want to immerse themselves to a point they forget its program codes and graphics, while the other, often beeing involved in programming in real life, too, see a more technical side to it. Ppl can differ quite a bit in how they percieve the world as a whole or mere aspects of it.

I am kinda reminded of a discussion in the IL2 forums. There some russian geeks came up with a solution to tweak aircraft engine sounds. What followed was a bloody battle to death. On the one side ppl were exited and overly energetic to hear those news, after all the sounds in this game were way below standart after all and this mod actually DID improve these quite considerably, doing a lot for immersion.

The other side rose all hell about it because they saw their online expirience threatend. They feared if one such exploit is used, then others changing flight model and comparable attributes will follow soon. Which actually was not an unreasonable assumption and a real danger for those regulary competing in online simming.

Again, both sides were right in their assesment considering their own expectations and what was needed to make this game fun for themselves. Still, no solution was found to this day. Instead, the many more ppl supporting the mod ban basicly managed to even ban the mere mentioning of said mods from the forums. Coexistance thus was not possible.

How to solve such a dilemma, where fundamentally different attitudes towards a game/simulation/mod clash, despite all folks involved beeing great ppl who under different conditions would have no problem having a beer with each other?

Dunno. But I think mutual apologies to each other and the attempt to actually carefully "listen" to the other side could be of great help. That certainly also includes the need for one party to bring over its point without hostile feelings or the urge to "prove a point". Now yeah, that is a bit of idealistic and in part naive daydreaming here. BUT, then again, and as I mentioned earlier, folks in this forum are a bit more mature then the average, so there may be some real hope.

Any chance for that?

[ReallyDedPoet]

Lastly, the thread was quickly locked. I do not know why, but I certainly made it appear that GWX/KL was in control of the SH3 Forums and any discussions which would take place there. I had been taught my lesson. I no longer felt enthusiastic about discussing SH3 or GWX with other members. I had been made an example and now knew better.

For anyone who wants to review the indicident for themselves, here it is:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133192


I was the Mod. who locked that thread MS. That night I got a heads up from another member regarding that thread, that I needed to be aware of it. So I went to have a look.

I might add that from time to time we Mods. get PMs from members here alerting us to different stuff going on, it is appreciated. It is hard to monitor all that goes on in the various threads-forums, we do our best, but it is impossible to see everything.

As you will recall I posted in that thread with the hopes that the discussion would improve, having seen similar discussions in the past that did not, I decided to close it. Did I lock the thread to quickly, perhaps. But I made a decision that night and to this day accept the consequences for it, as I do with other decisions that I make. But like anybody else in this thread, in these forums and indeed at SUBSIM, you live and learn, nobody is perfect here, far from it.

Behind the scenes Moderator's ( including Neal ) communicate quite often really, asking questions on the issues of the day, talking about existing and potential scenarios here, bouncing ideas back and forth, all in an effort to do what we do here better. We also receive feedback from you folks, that is valuable as well. None of us here enjoy or want to lock a thread, we would rather see members work issues out amongst themselves, this place, SUBSIM is all about it's members, but sometimes we do have to take action.

Locking this thread has been mentioned here, and whether Moderator's here would do this, as I have posted previously, that is not anybodies intention, far from it. Like everybody else here we want to see this through and get to a place where all acknowledge that SUBSIM is a welcome place to come and participate, and although we may not necessarily agree with what some folks say or do here, we at least respect them as members for being able to say it.

There has been some good discussion in this thread, I think there has been some nice progress made, and more to be made I am sure :yep: Like many here, I hope that this process has some positive lasting effects going forward.


RDP

[Sub Sailor]

I started on this site in the 90s, and it was a true forum where we discussed and shared views. Now I am sorting through 10+ pages of "Democrat Attack Junk"
I am 67 years old and retired Navy and I love Submarine Sims. Subs were my life for 24 years. If I want to read or hear attacks I will read my morning paper or turn on the news.
I am asking, Please can we drop the rancor and go back to sharing views and respecting the views of others.
I posted earlier that I was disappointed that so much attention was being paid to U-Boats, many of you answered back, very politely I want to say, stating your views. For that I thank you. I was not being critical of anything I was simple asking if anyone was doing anything to improve SH4. I like to play the U.S Boats and it was suggested that I patch to "Trigger Maru", I don't know what it does and I did go to the site but I was not sure if it was the correct down load. It was pointed out that the U-Boat mod also improved the Sim over all, I did not know that. Is "Trigger Maru and the U-Boat mod similar to SCXIIc and Lwami? Now I would like all of you to read this thread and tell me what happen to respect and civility?
What is the use of posting or reading on this site if degenerates in to a verbal brawl accomplishing nothing. I have been here a long time, I will bet you there are newer members who on reading this shy a way because they don't want be ridiculed for asking questions or stating their views. I am sure I will be hammered for this post-Go for it- I am old and have a hard shell and I will keep asking and sharing until I can't see my monitor.

Please lets step back and work together,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)
(I have been on Submarines for real)

[Jimbuna]

Pleased to meet you Sub Sailor sir.....Good post http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2843/sailor20salutekw6.gif

[Deimos01]

I started on this site in the 90s, and it was a true forum where we discussed and shared views. Now I am sorting through 10+ pages of "Democrat Attack Junk"
I am 67 years old and retired Navy and I love Submarine Sims. Subs were my life for 24 years. If I want to read or hear attacks I will read my morning paper or turn on the news.
I am asking, Please can we drop the rancor and go back to sharing views and respecting the views of others.
I posted earlier that I was disappointed that so much attention was being paid to U-Boats, many of you answered back, very politely I want to say, stating your views. For that I thank you. I was not being critical of anything I was simple asking if anyone was doing anything to improve SH4. I like to play the U.S Boats and it was suggested that I patch to "Trigger Maru", I don't know what it does and I did go to the site but I was not sure if it was the correct down load. It was pointed out that the U-Boat mod also improved the Sim over all, I did not know that. Is "Trigger Maru and the U-Boat mod similar to SCXIIc and Lwami? Now I would like all of you to read this thread and tell me what happen to respect and civility?
What is the use of posting or reading on this site if degenerates in to a verbal brawl accomplishing nothing. I have been here a long time, I will bet you there are newer members who on reading this shy a way because they don't want be ridiculed for asking questions or stating their views. I am sure I will be hammered for this post-Go for it- I am old and have a hard shell and I will keep asking and sharing until I can't see my monitor.

Please lets step back and work together,

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)
(I have been on Submarines for real)

Well said Sir! I participate in many different forums and this one has always been the best in regards to helpfullness, civility and mutual respect. I hope we can continue to keep it that way.

Sub Sailor. You should definately try out TMO. It does a lot of good for this nice sim. You want to first get JSGME (Jonesoft Generic Mod Enabler) It makes installing/unistalling mods a breeze. Then go to the sticky for TMO and get the version for what you are patched to. There is one if you are patched to 1.4 and another if you are using the Uboat add-on 1.5. TMO focuses on the fleet boats. :up:

[kylesplanet]

Well I owe the community an apology for part of my post, the last paragraph. I'm not apologizing for the words I wrote because I believe them but AVG is right, Subsim is certainly not the place to post it and I was wrong in doing so and if I offended anyone, I truly am sorry. I also owe AVG an apology for having to respond to a statement that did not belong here. Sorry bro.:oops:

I want to make clear (I didn't in my original post) that I have no problem whatsoever with GWX coming to SH4, as a matter of fact, I welcome them with open arms. My disappointment is with UBI. As Sub Sailor said in the post I quoted, I bought a fleetboat sim and I see it going in the wrong direction if your a fleetboat fan. I also feel like the modders that do so much for the PTO get looked over way to often (though not always intentionally) and that kinda gets in my craw sometimes. Oh well, if the PTO stays just as it is, it is still a great sim so I'll leave it at that.:up:

[CaptainHaplo]

Having created a few of my own tweaks that I have given to the public, let me say its very very easy for "discussion" on something to be taken personally when it isn't intended to be. You must remember, typing doesnt provide you the ability to see a face or hear a tone- and our minds often jump to offense when none was intended. I recall a similiar issue occured way back in SH4's early history with nukeboat and killersub - see http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=116075 and you will see that I took offense to someone giving an observation about the mod. The fact is - while I got angry and took the criticism personally, I don't think in hindsight it was. Whats even more important is that the "flaw" in the original mod being pointed out pushed me to learn more about modding and what I was doing - making later releases of that mod and other things I have worked on better.

Now I am not defending anyone here - I wasn't involved in any of the discussion and I really don't care to read a bunch of drama. Here is what I think - The GWX team working on something involving SH4 is a good thing - because sooner or later I will get to try what they build. Guess what - I will change it as I think I need to - just to suit my own gameplay desires. I have done the same to TMO, RSRD and countless other mods not related to subsimming. Why - because whether it be the great work of Ducimus, Beery, the GWX team, or anyone else, I like to play these games. So I am glad these people and groups are out there working hard. Opinions on how to do things, and the things that need to be done, will always differ - thats why we CHOOSE what we load on our machines to play - either as released or "tweaked" like we want.

@ AVG - thanks mate for the compliment on the equation - hows this for balancing the checkbook - Uboat expansion for 9.95 on subsim.com = fun for all those who havent gotten it yet!!!

[AVGWarhawk]

CaptainHalo:

@ AVG - thanks mate for the compliment on the equation - hows this for balancing the checkbook - Uboat expansion for 9.95 on subsim.com = fun for all those who havent gotten it yet!!!

Shameless but I like it:D

[swdw]

Been staying away from here for a couple of days, but I would like to make on last post in this thread.

Earlier I was dealing with the attitude of the fans, which was misinterpereted by a GWX member as being directed at the team.

Because of what I then saw as contradictory answers and a misreperesentation of what I posted because of a misunderstanding I responed to the POSTER. We exchange a couple of posts and it should have stayed between us, yet the next thing I know I'm being blamed by another GWX member for trolling for harsh answers from the entire GWX team. The whole pont is, if the responses to my posts had been left to the person they were directed at, that's where it would have stopped. We could have dealt with it between the 2 of us. But no, instead I get called, close mnded, a troll, etc. So yes, then I responded to the other posts.

Take what you want from that. But why, when a person is responding to the post of another person, why do the other GWX team members feel obligated to start with personal comments instead of letting the situation be resolved among the 2 people hashing it out?

If others had kept out, then there wouldn't have been follow on repsonses to their additional comments.

So, when trying to deal with one person, and then having others jump in and resort to "name calling" . . . as someone who has not dealt with GWX before, I now am starting to understand the source of some of the hostility that has been generated among the community by that team.

So what's the point in bringing this up?
I think such experiences is one of the reasons there are hard feelings toward some of the GWX team members.

As stated earlier, I have no issues with their work, and am glad for the ATO players that they'll have a mod dealing with their favorite theater.

Whatever responses may follow this, I'm done with this thread. It would be nice though if the "name calling" will be refrained from. AVG has ponted out that there are GWX members he's dealt with who are stand up guys. Coming from another stand up guy like AVGwarhawk, that's a great compliment, so I trust him on this.

For users, RFB will continue development with an eye towards remaining as compatible as possible with other major mods that enhance the game. If that includes finding a way to cohabitate with a GWX mod, then that's what we'll do.

I choose to believe GWX will be willing to work towards that end for the users benefit too. If benefiting users was not part of their goal, they wouldn't be doing all this work for free. So their end result speaks highly of their intentions.

We can only hope it may be as simple as having 2 versions of some key files that can be activated / deactivated using JSGME (sounds being one) depending on whether you play ATO or PTO. To keep everyone building mods from having headaches, let's hope the game engine allows us to come up with such a simple solution (or that someone creates an SH4 commander utility).

[Jimbuna]

We can only hope it may be as simple as having 2 versions of some key files that can be activated / deactivated using JSGME (sounds being one) depending on whether you play ATO or PTO. To keep everyone building mods from having headaches, let's hope the game engine allows us to come up with such a simple solution (or that someone creates an SH4 commander utility).

Allow me to join you in that simplistic wish.........Let us hope that one day both our hopes, desires and aspirations come to fruition. http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Besides....the summers and the winters are a lot more pleasant in the Pacific. http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9026/wolfthumbsuprw5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Rockin Robbins]

@Mush: Since WernerSobe has devoted so much of his attention to mods, I've become the pretender to the throne of strategy guru in SH4, with some pretty strange strategies sometimes. I also imported U-Boat targeting practices (after "justifying" the tactic with vague references aaronblood found in Dick O'Kane's books) into Silent Hunter IV. Other that one troller who appeared from nowhere to badger me about "game tricks" and then vanished as trolls often do, the SH4 forums have been a haven of open ideas strategy-wise.

There was a thread on one of the missions where an attack is made on a task force including the Yamato. A gamer posted that he liked to put six into the Yamato and then surface beside its smoking hulk to pick off the entire task force with his deck gun. They wouldn't return fire because he was beside the Yamato.

I am well known for the test of historical plausibility as the gatekeeper for what strategy I will use. I replied that in real life, other ships would not have held all their fire. They would have opened up with small arms fire, 40mm and below, because it would not hurt the Yamato's hull. They would have swept the deck of the sub, keeping the gun crew from firing a single shot. And they would have sunk the sub with 5" or equivalent ordinance by bringing a ship so close to the helpless submarine that they could sink the sub without endangering the Yamato.

I then congratulated the poster for a neat strategy for SH4. One thing I hope to see for SH4 is a healthy mod community of totally unrealistic Star Wars-like blast 'em to hell from on invincible high mods. This is a high tradition in just about any moddable game, and SH4 should be no different. It is true that such God modes lack challenge and staying power for players, but they are a hell of a lot of fun for awhile and for a break once in awhile. When those come out and are attacked, I'll be there with a strong defense.

Because Silent Hunter 3 and 4 are not just simulations. They are games. Anything that works in the game is fair play. You and I may choose to play otherwise, but that is our right, not our obligation. It is wrong of us to criticise or seek to supress "game tricks" just because we from our ivory towers believe that we know more than they do. GWX's admitted treatment of MarkShot is indefensible and deplorable, especially if you grant their "argument" that they were in the right because it was a game exploit. That ploy just digs GWX a deeper hole.

OF COURSE what MarkShot talks about is a "game exploit." That is why he brings it up. And he brings it up for the purpose of having it examined by many sets of eyes so it can be appreciated and worked on. Then nobody says "neat find!" Here comes the bullying.

Thank God that hasn't happened in SH4 forums. Yet. If it does I will have a lot to say about it. I have a very thick skin. With all respect to everybody, I do not care what anybody else's thoughts are about what I post. I am happy to receive correction, clarification and verification, but nothing is subject to bullying. I do not care if someone does not like what I say.

The opinion of the guy who shelled out his cash and can't find the handle on the game, who's ready to quit, and something I say makes a difference: the guy whose curses are turned into fun, his opinion is all I care about. I have received a lot of PMs from those people, who, in spite of my imperfect explanations and sometimes clumsy wording and lousy videos, find something of value that keeps them playing Silent Hunter.

Armed with those communications, unlike MarkShot, Mush, Ducimus, I stand with Sub Sailor. I've been though the intimidation thing and it is not worth my time to get upset about.

Those in the right stand. All that is necessary for those in the wrong to triumph is that those in the right surrender. Bullying is the inappropriate conduct that produces that surrender in some. My treasure trove of PMs from unknowns who perhaps have never even posted on SubSim says that ain't gonna happen here.

[Mush Martin]

@ RR ...Good Post.
Thick skin I do have.
Had I been "going on upset about it" that would have gone on months ago

For my own part I am interested in all the forums of SS being
positive and progressive places for us to hang out, my issue isnt
really with even those to whom I took offense in the first place
my concern is the nurturing atmosphere and so as I see it I see
a disturbance in the force that way and am compelled as a good
member to say something about it. all good for you and me as we
are familiar with the people and issues but indeed to a noob?

I am not really trying to grind an axe with my last post I am trying
to address what I percieve as an issue detrimental to the greater
comfort of the community. I dont really want to recriminate or crucify
anyone. I would like attention brought to the matter that it is indeed
a serious issue for the community, an issue which I feel has not been
effectively dealt with to this point.

My appeal isnt for anything other than an establishment or commitment
to deal more directly and effectively with this issue from the site management. I dont actually care about my own incident but I did feel
markshots issue was being dismissed offhandedly. And as I have had
the same experience I felt that maybe it might be pro active to point
out that there is far more than just me and He that have had this
treatment.

SS is my favourite place on the net. my home on the net
you guys are my peers, I just expect more from us.

[Rockin Robbins]

SS is my favourite place on the net. my home on the net
you guys are my peers, I just expect more from us.

Arrrrrr!:arrgh!: And change that masterpiece of a siggy picture and your life is in peril!:rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

We can only hope it may be as simple as having 2 versions of some key files that can be activated / deactivated using JSGME (sounds being one) depending on whether you play ATO or PTO. To keep everyone building mods from having headaches, let's hope the game engine allows us to come up with such a simple solution (or that someone creates an SH4 commander utility).
Allow me to join you in that simplistic wish.........Let us hope that one day both our hopes, desires and aspirations come to fruition. http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Besides....the summers and the winters are a lot more pleasant in the Pacific. http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9026/wolfthumbsuprw5.gif (http://imageshack.us)


I have to admit, the foreboding weather in the Atlantic really sets the mood for this type of simulation. I would hope one day I could play a DD or Flower Class simulation escorting convoys in the Atlantic. "Compass Rose" would be a cool name for the game. Deal with the weather and keep you herd moving forward.

[Jimbuna]

We can only hope it may be as simple as having 2 versions of some key files that can be activated / deactivated using JSGME (sounds being one) depending on whether you play ATO or PTO. To keep everyone building mods from having headaches, let's hope the game engine allows us to come up with such a simple solution (or that someone creates an SH4 commander utility).
Allow me to join you in that simplistic wish.........Let us hope that one day both our hopes, desires and aspirations come to fruition. http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Besides....the summers and the winters are a lot more pleasant in the Pacific. http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9026/wolfthumbsuprw5.gif (http://imageshack.us)


I have to admit, the foreboding weather in the Atlantic really sets the mood for this type of simulation. I would hope one day I could play a DD or Flower Class simulation escorting convoys in the Atlantic. "Compass Rose" would be a cool name for the game. Deal with the weather and keep you herd moving forward.

I'm always reminded of that classic....The Cruel Sea.

It would be so cool trying to shepherd your flock in some semblence of order whilst trying to protect them from relentless attack.

TBH, I'm suprised nothing came in that elk after Destroyer Command.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just started "The Cruel Sea" last night. That is how I came up with Compass Rose. I read the first chapter and thought what a good sim it would be to skipper a Flower Class.

[Jimbuna]

Just started "The Cruel Sea" last night. That is how I came up with Compass Rose. I read the first chapter and thought what a good sim it would be to skipper a Flower Class.

Rgr that....I'd forgotten the old rose :oops:

:lol:

[Sailor Steve]

Just read it last year; great book. When you're done have a look around for Monsarrat at Sea. It's a collection of stuff he wrote during the war, plus short stories and a short memoir he wrote later, giving the real name of the ship he served on (he used 'HMS Flower' for his wartime writings) and opinions of the real officers he served with. Both they and his career track were quite different from his fictional counterpart.

And I agree: I've wanted a dedicated convoy escort sim ever since Destroyer Command.

[M. Sarsfield]

Do you think it would be possible to model a bachstelze (flying auto-gyro) to be towed behind a u-boat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QsOFxg7jTU


While we're at it, how about a Flettner Fl 282A helicopter as a shore-based observer? I think some warships used these, as well.

[Nuc]

Just started &quot;The Cruel Sea&quot; last night. That is how I came up with Compass Rose. I read the first chapter and thought what a good sim it would be to skipper a Flower Class.
It is a classic and the movie is first class also

[AVGWarhawk]

Just started &quot;The Cruel Sea&quot; last night. That is how I came up with Compass Rose. I read the first chapter and thought what a good sim it would be to skipper a Flower Class. It is a classic and the movie is first class also

I'm enjoying the book very much. I decided to get the book after watching a clip from the moving on one of the other forums here. I often find the books are better then the movies. But, I'm sure the movie will find it's way into my collection of related material. Thus far, very well written and looks to be a type of book that you wish would never end and have a hard time putting down to go eat or something.

[Jimbuna]

Do you think it would be possible to model a bachstelze (flying auto-gyro) to be towed behind a u-boat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QsOFxg7jTU


While we're at it, how about a Flettner Fl 282A helicopter as a shore-based observer? I think some warships used these, as well.

We already have the FA223 Drache

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0flSwzjnMA

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/355/sh32008012615103830yd4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8131/sh32008012613275763ac5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/2201/sh32008012613281020ew9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4913/sh32008012613283521xj9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

You just never know what might be expected soon http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1817/thinkbigsw1yo4.gif

[AVGWarhawk]

Now that is cool. I had just seen a program on this. It was the 10 top helicopters. This one was, I think, number 7 on the list. There was some footage of this beasty around some mountain region.

[M. Sarsfield]

I was going to mention the Dragon, too, but didn't want to seem too greedy. This is top notch! BZ! :up:

Now that is cool. I had just seen a program on this. It was the 10 top helicopters. This one was, I think, number 7 on the list. There was some footage of this beasty around some mountain region.

He put a link to that video in his post. They ranked the Dragon at #9.

[AVGWarhawk]

Get that thing into IL2 and watch Dowly have fun!:D

[Jimbuna]

Get that thing into IL2 and watch Dowly have fun!:D

http://imgcash5.imageshack.us/img502/3708/flyingdowlyvz1.gif http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img85/3356/flyingdowly2uq1.gif

[Madox58]

Did somebody say Fl-282?
Better known as the Kolibri?

Let me see............

Oh, here it is.
;)
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Render.jpg

Comeing to a Theater of Operation near you!!
:rotfl:

[Tomi_099]

Did somebody say Fl-282?
Better known as the Kolibri?

Let me see............

Oh, here it is.
;)
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n12/privateer_2006/Render.jpg

Comeing to a Theater of Operation near you!!
:rotfl:

.................................................. ......................

Looky Lucky Cool !!! Prevateer !!

i have seen a platform on the VIIc/41 Sub for this Heli !!!:rock:

[AVGWarhawk]

Very cool Privateer:yep:

[jmr]

I didn't respond to the AOTD representative's thread because I can only be in one place at a time. Between 60-65 hours per week at my RL job, school, and clinical rotations... I have to prioritize my time... leaving many things unanswered for a time. That's life... not me blowing someone off.
You mean to tell me you're in your residency AND you have had time to put out the greatest ground breaking mod in the history of Silent Hunter? That's deserving of a Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamnods but I think you'd get a lot of curious stares in the hospital.

[Madox58]

It's close to being finished.
The skin is mostly by Mark Adams
http://www.dodosim.com
:up:

I asked and got his permission to adapt it for my model
cause it's just so danged good!!
:o

The renderings don't do it justice.
There are several Youtube videos of his flight sim version
if you want to check it out.
:up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I didn't respond to the AOTD representative's thread because I can only be in one place at a time. Between 60-65 hours per week at my RL job, school, and clinical rotations... I have to prioritize my time... leaving many things unanswered for a time. That's life... not me blowing someone off.
You mean to tell me you're in your residency AND you have had time to put out the greatest ground breaking mod in the history of Silent Hunter? That's deserving of a Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamnods but I think you'd get a lot of curious stares in the hospital.

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to give the impression that I am a doctor.

I am an EMT with my city's emergency ambulance service and have returned to school (we have a local EMS academy) with the intent to increase my certification level. I've worked on an ambulance about five years now collectively.

(Progression order is EMT-B, followed by EMT-I, and finally EMT-P... I am currently an EMT-I with some additional related certifications... working on my EMT-P status. It can be confusing from the outside.)
:arrgh!:

[Edit: I/we certainly don't deserve any medals. Unlike shows on television, we lose more critical patients than we are able to save. We try like hell and work as hard as we can, but reality is quite cold and unforgiving... even when all the ducks are lined up perfectly.]

[M. Sarsfield]

The renderings don't do it justice.
There are several Youtube videos of his flight sim version
if you want to check it out.
:up:

I was watching one of his movies on YouTube yesterday. Very cool and looking forward to the different helis being added to the mods.

One of the BF1942 expansions added the Kolibri. I had a lot of fun flying it around. Not very practical other than to quickly take flags that weren't defended very well.

[Sailor Steve]

[Edit: I/we certainly don't deserve any medals. Unlike shows on television, we lose more critical patients than we are able to save. We try like hell and work as hard as we can, but reality is quite cold and unforgiving... even when all the ducks are lined up perfectly.]
And you think you don't deserve a medal for that? The fact that you guys in emergency try at all is a great thing. That you perservere in the face of those kinds of losses is greater still.

I'm reminded of the line from Von Ryan's Express: "If even one of us makes it out alive, it will have been worth it."

[kylesplanet]

I didn't respond to the AOTD representative's thread because I can only be in one place at a time. Between 60-65 hours per week at my RL job, school, and clinical rotations... I have to prioritize my time... leaving many things unanswered for a time. That's life... not me blowing someone off.
You mean to tell me you're in your residency AND you have had time to put out the greatest ground breaking mod in the history of Silent Hunter? That's deserving of a Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamnods but I think you'd get a lot of curious stares in the hospital.

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to give the impression that I am a doctor.

I am an EMT with my city's emergency ambulance service and have returned to school (we have a local EMS academy) with the intent to increase my certification level. I've worked on an ambulance about five years now collectively.

(Progression order is EMT-B, followed by EMT-I, and finally EMT-P... I am currently an EMT-I with some additional related certifications... working on my EMT-P status. It can be confusing from the outside.)
:arrgh!:

[Edit: I/we certainly don't deserve any medals. Unlike shows on television, we lose more critical patients than we are able to save. We try like hell and work as hard as we can, but reality is quite cold and unforgiving... even when all the ducks are lined up perfectly.]

Hey KL I'm an EMT/Firefighter also though I don't practice anymore. I did it for about ten years before I went into business for myself. As tough as it was at times, I miss it. I live in a smaller town where you personally knew a few of your patients so that made it kinda tough. Your right about losing more than we kept and that was always in your mind if you done everything right.

[Jon]

Hi all, this is my first post since I discovered SH3 & GWX all those years ago (so please be gentle):D .
Can I first just say a BIG BIG thank you to ALL the Modders out there who have given me (appart from massive eye candy) hours & hours of endless enjoyment (or as my wife would say 'her rival for my love & attention':-? ) hunting on Silent Hunter.

Even though this topic has been brushed on possibly several times, can I say - would it be possible for the wonderful, lovely GWX team to include the Open Door Mod (by divingduck I think)? in SH4 1.5 when they come to overhall it? As this really does add some thing to the sim, especially then walking round the controll room.
Also, and I know some are gonna hate this, adding another room in the American Subs i.e a radio room/yoe mans office, possibly a crews or officers mess? Just something to add a little flavour to the sim.
Also it would be nice to have an authentic TDC in the conning tower on the American subs where you have to input the data, and not the current method.
Sorry if it seems to be a demanding list of mods, I just think it would add that 'something' to the sim.:hmm:
Many Thanks and all the best to you GWX Team. Keep up the massivley MASSIVELY good work! And to all the WONDERFUL MODDERS.:arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Kaleun Jon, I'll pass on your comments over at The Lair http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[LukeFF]

Welcome aboard Kaleun Jon, I'll pass on your comments over at The Lair http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Wolves have lairs? News to me. :hmm:

[M. Sarsfield]

Sure they have lairs. Even Hitler had a Wolf's Lair... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsschanze :p

[AVGWarhawk]

Welcome aboard Kaleun Jon, I'll pass on your comments over at The Lair http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Wolves have lairs? News to me. :hmm:

Be good Luke....for the love of my sanity.

[Dowly]

Welcome aboard Kaleun Jon, I'll pass on your comments over at The Lair http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)
Wolves have lairs? News to me. :hmm:
Be good Luke....for the love of my sanity.

:rotfl::rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe wolves have dens. Mr Bean...this guy is seriously under-rated. Strange humor but certainly good mindless entertainment.

Now, back to what GWX is doing:up:

[Dowly]

I believe wolves have dens.

I'm pretty sure they have lairs too... you know... tents and bonfires and stuff... :hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe wolves have dens.
I'm pretty sure they have lairs too... you know... tents and bonfires and stuff... :hmm:

Thats the Boy Scouts.

[Dowly]

I believe wolves have dens.
I'm pretty sure they have lairs too... you know... tents and bonfires and stuff... :hmm:
Thats the Boy Scouts.

Not for long! :88)
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/Image/1555/Thumb/1555R-139003.jpg

[gord96]

wow. the dark side of the SH modding community. I didnt know this uglyness even existed. Oh well.

On topic. Man is GWX for SH4 gonna be great. Looks amazing from what little you have shown.

GWX:rock: :rock:

[ReallyDedPoet]

wow. the dark side of the SH modding community. I didnt know this uglyness even existed. Oh well.

errrr, your going to hurt AVG's head again :yep: Their just messin' with one
another :roll::lol::lol:


RDP

[bigboywooly]

Seems it can be either

The den, or lair, of a wolf

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761560395

[Madox58]

:rotfl:
I think it's misspelled.
Lair, Liar..........
:hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe wolves have dens.
I'm pretty sure they have lairs too... you know... tents and bonfires and stuff... :hmm:
Thats the Boy Scouts.

Not for long! :88)
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/Image/1555/Thumb/1555R-139003.jpg

I had to answer Dowly.....:D Boy Scouts do more then tents, bonfires and stuff...this wolf just might find out what.


http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/boyscout.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

Anyhoo, I asked Jimbuna to start an official GWX for SH4 thread. Either Jim or someone equally representative of the modding team. It is time! :up: Let this thread go to the wayside.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome aboard Kaleun Jon, I'll pass on your comments over at The Lair http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Wolves have lairs? News to me. :hmm:

The GWX Team do.....In the form of a separate forum http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9708/piratebf4.gif (http://imageshack.us/)

[Jimbuna]

Anyhoo, I asked Jimbuna to start an official GWX for SH4 thread. Either Jim or someone equally representative of the modding team. It is time! :up: Let this thread go to the wayside.

I've passed this over to Kpt. Lehmann our Project Manager and should imagine he'll get back to you after discussing with the other team members at The Lair http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9026/wolfthumbsuprw5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[W4lt3r]

News regarding the future of the GWX team and project to be posted April 30th.

The time has come and still no word from GWX team.. dont tell me they release info at 23:59 GMT 0 timezone ^^'

I'd really want GWX Mod into this..

[Dowly]

News regarding the future of the GWX team and project to be posted April 30th.

The time has come and still no word from GWX team.. dont tell me they release info at 23:59 GMT 0 timezone ^^'

I'd really want GWX Mod into this..

Patience, it's 2100 where we live, but if it's Kpt. who does the announcement, he's 5-7 hours behind us (never cant remember what the difference was, anyway).

Patience my finnish friend, grab a beer or something. :up: