[REL-UBM]Kriegsmarine AOB Finder

[Mikhayl]

edited

[Xantrokoles]

Thanks for this Mod mikhayl (and the devs of it)

Again a great job from my frensh neighbour:up:

[Able72]

Do I see the elemenets of OLC's GUI comming into SH4 ????

:rock::rock::rock::rock::rock:

Now we just have to convince OLC to play SH4 and port over his entire GUI :D

Thanks for taking this first step. I look forward to seeing more stuff like this one.

[AVGWarhawk]

One of these days I will learn how to use that piece of work!!!!!!! Thanks for getting to work in SH4 and OLC for making that puppy:D

[fireship4]

Was there something to do the same in US boats other than the methods we have currently?

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, so we're about a third of the way there. I'll be happy when everything works as in SH3. Otherwise, other targeting methods are far less cumbersome. Also the mod needs to be installable with JSGME. Good progress so far. You're not done!:up:

[Hitman]

Was there something to do the same in US boats other than the methods we have currently?


Yes and no. Basically, US method to get the target data involved:

1.- Plotting
2.- Use of the position keeper in the TDC (Comparing against target bearings, etc)
3.- Constant bearing
4.- Estimating

German methods to get target data involved:

1.- Plotting
2.- Specific tools (AOB finder like this example, and fixed wire speed measuring)
3.- Constant bearing
4.- Estimating

So they had many similarities except in nº 2

There was however a slide rule used aboard US ships to allow measuring angle on the bow if target data were well known. The principle is the same as the german circular slide ruler shown in this thread.

I think it would be very easy to implement this in the game, because all that is needed is to add the fixed scales in the periscope background and then add a draggable image with the moveable ones :D

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7436/platevcv8.th.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=platevcv8.jpg)

[fireship4]

Now Do It Now

[Nisgeis]

Was there something to do the same in US boats other than the methods we have currently?


Yes and no. Basically, US method to get the target data involved:

1.- Plotting
2.- Use of the position keeper in the TDC (Comparing against target bearings, etc)
3.- Constant bearing
4.- Estimating

German methods to get target data involved:

1.- Plotting
2.- Specific tools (AOB finder like this example, and fixed wire speed measuring)
3.- Constant bearing
4.- Estimating

So they had many similarities except in nº 2
<SNIP>



The U.S. had stadimeters had course angle finders to measure target angle using the same principle as the range finder.

[starbird]

Apparently both the US and German stadimeters could be rotated 90 degrees, and used horizontally to find AOB? OLC mentioned it in his gui manual, and many have mentioned it in the sh4 forums.

It sounds to me that US and German boats had similar tools available, they just had different tactics for using them.

[Nisgeis]

Apparently both the US and German stadimeters could be rotated 90 degrees, and used horizontally to find AOB? OLC mentioned it in his gui manual, and many have mentioned it in the sh4 forums.

This mod looks very interesting, but I have no idea what the original mod did or does, so I'm at a loss how I would use this mod.

This is paraphrasing, as I don't have my sources to hand atm, but off the top of my head, the US first saw a periscope or periscope specification in 1924 from Carl Zeiss for an internal stadimeter with range finding and course angle finder to find the target's angle based on its length. In 1930 Kollmorgen (spelling?) produced the first periscope with such an internal stadimeter. The manuals over at HNSA (might no be HNSA) for the periscope talk about the Type II (observation) and type III (attack) periscopes, the Observation scope having a course finder and the attack periscope only having the range finding component. There's some samlpe problems that show solutions as well as some pics of the extended stadimeter, though not very clear.

[Nisgeis]

First post updated with the reworked version :)

@Nisgeis, if you want to give it a go, check this link, nice & easy "how to" :
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=682671&postcount=207

Blimey! That looks complicated. I'll have to put my thinking cap on and read that again tomorrow. Thanks for the link.

[starbird]

There is also a video tutorial that OLC made that shows how the slide rule works. It also goes into other parts of the original mod.

http://files.filefront.com/OLC+GUI+Video+Tutorial/;8984953;/fileinfo.html

[joegrundman]

Hey I recognise that, Mikhayl :D

I was going to convert U-jagd to SH4UBM once i'd got hold of it, but i still haven't got it :doh:

Earlier i was trying to get the American Mk1 Mod 3 Submarine Attack Course Finder, which is the American version of the Angriffscheibe/Attack disk to work for SH4> I produced some very nice images (if i say so myself) but i couldn't get it to work satisfactorily. It seemed that I couldn't use an alpha channel "screen" to block off parts of the dial in order to separate the different moving parts, so if i tried to move one part of the dial, i had to move all parts.

Anyway, let me know if you have success porting the attack disk and accompanying sliderule

[Hitman]

Isn't the stock zoom setting in SH4 1x/4x ? :hmm:

[Nisgeis]

Are the viewport settings the same in menu_1024.ini?

[Nisgeis]

I'm not sure, the last time I battled with the menu file, I lost! The thought I had was the US periscope is a larger view than the U-Boat view. If the game uses the same 'view' for the outside world, but uses a smaller aperture, then this would mask off most of the image and skew the zoom factor. That's the only thing I can think of that would make the image too big. I think in the menu file, it has the location of the view window, but I'm not sure and can't check atm.

[kiwi_2005]

The OLC mod is bloody awesome i use it with SH3 now i see parts of it coming to SH4:rock::rock:

[Hitman]

The models in SH4 and SH3 use the same scale, so I don't have a clue why a ship at 3000m in SH4 is twice as big as in SH3 when seen through the scope :confused:


Do the SH4 scopes have bigger field of view than SH3? This should just determine how much water you see around the ship -not the ship size itself- but who know how the game code does simulate that :hmm:

[Nisgeis]

Erm... that doesn't make any sense at all! :hmm:

The first and second attack scope views - were they both at 1.5x zoom? If they are that's strange, as the SH4 image is twice as large as the SH3 image at 1.5x, but then when you set the SH4 scope to 3x, it's the same size as the 1.5x SH3 image - this must mean that increasing magnification has made the image smaller - I can't be reading these images correctly. The last two attack show images show both at 1x? That shows the SH4 is again twice as big as the SH3 image. Are the magnifications I've read correct?

What's the length of that ship in meters? If you can set it so that it shows 90 degree angle on the bow, we can work out what image is correct. If the field of view of the scope is 60 degrees, then at 1.5x power the field of view should be 40 degrees and at 6x power it should be 10 degrees. That sounds a bit high to me, but that should be the same in both games. If we know the length of the ship and the range, we can work out how many degrees the target should take up and use that to determine which image is correct and what is going wrong.

[Rockin Robbins]

First post updated with the reworked version :)

@Nisgeis, if you want to give it a go, check this link, nice & easy "how to" :
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=682671&postcount=207

Blimey! That looks complicated. I'll have to put my thinking cap on and read that again tomorrow. Thanks for the link.

While it is complicated, it authentically shows the genius of German design. I found the SH3 version not bad at all after a few repetitions. This is a very big part of making the U-Boat authentic and it cannot be considered complete without it. This is very important stuff Mikhayl! I look forward to its completion.

[Hitman]

Obviously the starting point should be the "real" thing, so I would suggest to calculate first how a ship appeared to the Kaleun when looking through the ocular of his scope, and then try to tweak the game to achieve the same result.

From my documents library:

Attack scope:

Zoom: 1.5x and 6x
Field of view: 38º and 9º
Linear field of view: 689 and 157 metres @ 1000 metres distance

Observation scope (Late war model):

Zoom: 1.5x and 6x
Field of view: 38º and 9º
Linear field of view: 689 and 157 metres @ 1000 metres distance

i.e. same data BUT more light into the ocular due to bigger prisms.

Thus, a 157 metres long ship should cover exactly the ocular at 90º AOB, 1.5x zoom and 1000 metres distance :yep:

[Hitman]

Sorry, yes at 6x zoom :damn:

[Nisgeis]

Zoom: 1.5x and 6x
Field of view: 38º and 9º
Linear field of view: 689 and 157 metres @ 1000 metres distance


Using one of the formulas for a right angled triangle, Adjacent length * Tan(angle) = Opposite length, using the figures from Hitman, we can confirm the formula works by working out the linear filed of view. Half linear field of view = tan(half angle) * range.

Half = tan(4.5) * 1000 = 78.7m. Multiply it by two and you get 157.4m.

Linear field of view at 2,000m where you have that tanker is twice that at 314m, so a tanker that is 190m long should take up 60% of the scope at 2km.

Working with angles, the ship at 2km should have a total of 5.44 degrees bearing change from bow to stern - can you check that reading and see if it's approx right? 5.44 divided by the field of view angle is also 60%. Your scope though at 60 degree field of view and at 1.5x and 6x magnification will give you a zoomed field of view of 40 degrees and 10 degrees. At that FOV the target at 2km should take up 54% of the scope.

The 190m tanker should completely fill the 1.5x scope, assuming it's got a field of view of 36 degrees as Hitman states, at a range of 292m and at 6x, 1,207m with a field of view of 9 degrees. For a scope of 40 degrees field of view a range of 261m fills the 1.5x scope and range of 1,086m fills the scope at 6x for a scope of 10 degrees field of view. It also follows that at those ranges, the difference between the bow and stern bearings should equal the field of view it was calculated for.

OK, sorry about the maths, it doesn't come across well. Neither the SH3 or SH4 images seem quite right.

[Nisgeis]

That Dido at 1km should have an 8.92 degree spread from bow to stern if it's 156m long. Can you confirm that? Some of the lengths / mast heights in SH4 are a bit wonky in stock.

[WernerSobe]

Isn't the stock zoom setting in SH4 1x/4x ? :hmm:

it is.

But real U-boat periscope did have 1,5x/6x zoom not 1x/4x. Same for Fleet boats btw..

[Rockin Robbins]

OMG! You hit it dead on! Great job guys. Question? Are the boat lengths and mast heights in the recognition manual correct? Should they be? (opening a BIG can of worms here!:up:)

I'm going to throw my two cents in there and say that our recognition manual should only be as accurate as the real thing was.

[joegrundman]

The Dido has a mast height of 36,4m, x2 = ~73m. I know that the ship is at exactly 1000m, so I align 10(00) with 73 on the outer disc. the inner disc 90 mark tells us that the ship's height should cover about 16,8 vertical scopemarks.

Why are you doubling the mastheight? There is no reason for it in this version. You can change the numbers on the reticule so you don't have to do it.

Anyway, so it seems that SH4 has effectively applied an additional unrecorded zoom of x2 on the scopes.

One solution is that i could adjust the AOB finder image for the new settings and send it back to you. I still have all the pds files i used to make it in the first place and the adjustments wouldn't take me very long

joe

[Nisgeis]

Are the boat lengths and mast heights in the recognition manual correct? Should they be? (opening a BIG can of worms here!:up:)

I'm going to throw my two cents in there and say that our recognition manual should only be as accurate as the real thing was.

I agree about the recognition manual shop be accurately innacurate. If the cargo ship in question was built for one country by another, they would have very accurate information on that ship type, but if it was a military ship, they'd have to use photographs / estimates to calculate the dimensions. The Yamato for example was a very well kept secret and the allies had no idea of its dimensions. They assumed it was the same size as their own largest battleship.

Even if the dimension are known and are accurate, the enemy would know about stadimeters and ship recognition and would take steps to diguise their vessels. Masts lengths and funnels were altered, in some cases an extra canvas funnel was added to change the silhouette.

[Mav87th]

Obviously the starting point should be the "real" thing, so I would suggest to calculate first how a ship appeared to the Kaleun when looking through the ocular of his scope, and then try to tweak the game to achieve the same result.

From my documents library:

Attack scope:

Zoom: 1.5x and 6x
Field of view: 38º and 9º
Linear field of view: 689 and 157 metres @ 1000 metres distance

Observation scope (Late war model):

Zoom: 1.5x and 6x
Field of view: 38º and 9º
Linear field of view: 689 and 157 metres @ 1000 metres distance

i.e. same data BUT more light into the ocular due to bigger prisms.

Thus, a 157 metres long ship should cover exactly the ocular at 90º AOB, 1.5x zoom and 1000 metres distance :yep:

Edit - i did not realize the first time that you were speaking of U-boat's and not Fleetboats

Anyway the US subs had :

FOV was 32° and 8° not 38 and 9 - fleet type submarine manual pages 77, 443 and 526.

Thats a liner field of view of 419,44 feet pr. 1000 yards in high power (8° or x6 zoom) or 1677,76 feet in low power (32° or x1.5)

[Hitman]

Edit - i did not realize the first time that you were speaking of U-boat's and not Fleetboats

Anyway the US subs had :

FOV was 32° and 8° not 38 and 9 - fleet type submarine manual pages 77, 443 and 526.

Thats a liner field of view of 419,44 feet pr. 1000 yards in high power (8° or x6 zoom) or 1677,76 feet in low power (32° or x1.5)

Apparently, there were more differences between US and german technology before WW1, but then the US submarine branch got much influenced by the superb technology they found in the surrended german U-Boats. Argonaut/Narwhal/Nautilus are a very close recreation of the WW1 german U-cruisers f.e. and in optics they also seem to have followed a lot of german ideas. Certainly, the double image stadimeter is a genuine US creation (Lt. Fiske, 1895) but the germans adopted it quickly and also used it for the AOB measuring. But other than that, the similarities are enormous, the US subs using however outdated WW1 german technology by 1942 in optics (No fixed heigth of eye periscope, no TBT/UZO until late 1943, etc.) , yet what they lost in that area they more than compensated in electronics (Radar and TDC mainly).

[Jaeger]

hi mikhayl,

very nice job, indeed. but two questions: can you bring bak the aob wheel on the note panel? and second: would it be possible to add the tdc buttons in the attack scope?

greetz, Jaeger

[akdavis]

Apparently both the US and German stadimeters could be rotated 90 degrees, and used horizontally to find AOB? OLC mentioned it in his gui manual, and many have mentioned it in the sh4 forums.

It sounds to me that US and German boats had similar tools available, they just had different tactics for using them.

Just a confirmation, from Submarine Periscope Manual, Navpers 16165:
4J1. General description. The periscope has an internal range finding device of the stadimeter type capable of giving both ranges and course angles. The change from direct observation to range reading or course measuring is quickly and positively effective.

The range and course-angle finding device is of the duplicate image type; the distance between the images may be varied at will, so that, for example, the water line of one image may be brought into contact with the masthead or funnel top of the other image. If the length of the vessel is known or estimated and set on the length of the target scale dial, the angle subtended is indicated in yards on the range scale dial, against the known height of the vessel on the height scale dial.

The device may be rotated 90 degrees in a plane normal to the optical axis of the periscope. This is done by continuing the clockwise motion of the operating gear beyond the limit of the vertical position of the separating mechanism; thus the whole divided lens unit rotates 90 degrees. In this position, the two images of the target are at opposite edges of the field and the mechanism is in contact with its stops. Turning the handwheel counterclockwise makes the two images approach each other. Since the known length of the target has been set on the length of target scale dial opposite the stationary index mark on the bottom of the stadimeter housing, when the bow of one image touches the stern of the other, the course angle is indicated on the length of target scale dial against the previously found range on the range scale dial.

[Rockin Robbins]

Updated 04-23-08
Corrected some mistakes (sorry for the crappy previous versions), put back the default AOB dial on the notepad and tweaked the cameras file (better external view and free interior cam).
_______________________________


That new version is for stock 1.5, resolution 1024*768, JSGME ready !

All credits go to Joegrundman, OLC and Hitman for the original idea/mods/graphics

files included :
-Joegrundman's .tgas for the AOB finder + bits of OLC's .tgas(slightly edited).

-stock menu.ini modified to have the AOBF when clicking on "angle on bow" on the attack scope notepad.

-stock dials.cfg with a single modification copied on OLC's GUI (commented in the file).

-stock cameras.dat file with these changes for both scopes : zoom levels 1.5x and 6x, FOV 85°.

-stock "names.cfg" file with all ships length added to read on the recon manual

-contline.dds, dashline.dd & torp.dds, which are now just an alpha channel, no more "tail" on contacts and no torpedo icon. Delete them before enabling if you want the icons back.

I suppose no much people use this stuff for SH4, so if one of you needs a specific version to be compatible with A, B or C mod, just send me your version of the files listed above, I'll apply the modifications and upload the JSGME ready version :up:

http://files.filefront.com/AOB+Finder+04+23+08zip/;10060495;/fileinfo.html

Mikhayl, I squint in your general direction, sir! This is the most important addition to the U-Boat since the release of SH4UBM! Now we can all use authentic German methods of setting up an attack. This is utterly un-American and ingenius, showing German resoucefulness in the best light! Where we had fancy mechanical computer TDC's, the Germans came up with a much simpler, more elegant system that commands admiration if we will just use it!

This a first-rate contribution to SH4UBM and I wouldn't consider the U-Boat complete without it. Take a bow sir, and quit apologizing!:up:

[Nisgeis]

Now we can all use authentic German methods of setting up an attack. This is utterly un-American and ingenius, showing German resoucefulness in the best light! Where we had fancy mechanical computer TDC's, the Germans came up with a much simpler, more elegant system that commands admiration if we will just use it!

This is a very nice mod, very well done by Mikhayl, but it's not the way the Germans took their AOB readings. The OLC tutorial video posted in this thread says that they used a split image horizontal stadimeter to measure relative length and therefore AOB, but they couldn't work that into SH, so they used this method instead.

[Hitman]

They did have these wheels though, I suppose they could be used in "emergency" if the stadimeter didn't work, or even only to take a quick target speed reading. Hitman would sure know better, but I think these wheels may have been used on early u-boot (in Iron Coffins the author mentions two different types of attack scope mounted on the VIIC ?).


Yes they had, and they had them in fact since WW1. In the Vessikko scope you can still see the graded wiz-wheel system of the old scopes.

Werner refers in Iron coffins to two modesl of scopes, the first one is the older, classic one that goes up and down and is rotated manually. That one had the wiz-wheels externally. The second is the fixed-heigth-of-eye periscope that can be seen f.e. in the film Das Boot, where the commander sits in a saddle and operates the scope electrically, with no need to go himself up and down to his knees. This model had the same wiz-wheels and split prism system, but it was internal, being readed through the eyepiece in a partition.

Germans estimated the AOB as the americans, but mainly when being surfaced. Since the periscope makes you lose some of the depth-perception in objects, the wiz wheel served as an aid to determine AOB when doing a periscope attack. :up:

[Nisgeis]

Germans estimated the AOB as the americans, but mainly when being surfaced. Since the periscope makes you lose some of the depth-perception in objects, the wiz wheel served as an aid to determine AOB when doing a periscope attack. :up:

OK, I'm confused now. What's the OLC video talking about, when he mentions a split prism horizontal stadimeter?

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Posted a link in the UBM mods thread for this :)

[Hitman]

OK, I'm confused now. What's the OLC video talking about, when he mentions a split prism horizontal stadimeter?

The split prism stadimeter was used first to determine the mast heigth (vertically) and then it was rotated 90º with a special handle to use it horizontally. The same split prism was used twice. :yep:

[Nisgeis]

OK, I'm confused now. What's the OLC video talking about, when he mentions a split prism horizontal stadimeter?

The split prism stadimeter was used first to determine the mast heigth (vertically) and then it was rotated 90º with a special handle to use it horizontally. The same split prism was used twice. :yep:

OK, that's what I originally thought :D . Thanks for clarifying it. Do you (or anyone) happen to have any links to what the dial looked like for the German stadimeter?

[Hitman]

Sure....here you go (Click on the image for larger version):

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/734/wwheelfz1.th.jpg (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wwheelfz1.jpg)

[joegrundman]

Hey Mikhayl

i really can't get this to download from your filefront - been trying a couple of days: could you possibly host it on mediafire too please?

[joegrundman]

cheers:D

joe

[Fish40]

Any chance of a version compatable with RFB 1.5? What about in higher resolutions? Really like this in SH3, and would love to use it here:yep: Thanks for any info.

[rcjonessnp175]

Anynews on progress just started using this in sh3 with gwx3 and holy cow been missing out, just need this stuff in sh4 :wah:

[auricom]

ah no! what happened to this mod!?

[TorpX]

Sadly, it looks like the project has been given up; at least as far as SH4 is concerned.