REL: Small moon mod + discussion: Moon size - big or small?

[Carotio]

Hi,

Kriller2 and I have had a friendly discussion about the size of the moon, and now I would like to hear the rest of you.

***
Well, those of you who wish to try it can go to my site and get it:
http://www.silenthuntermods.com/forum/index.php?topic=59.0

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***

We know how the original moon looks like:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Moon_org.jpg

For SH3, I made a moon mod, which converted to dds works quite as good in SH4 too. The moon, I edited is small. And it changes brightness over time (the figures in the images is B for brightness and C for contrast compared to original work image):
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/Moon_Carotio.jpg
I actually made a big edition too, and I tried to make a medium edition also, but never received any feedback on those. The small moon seemed to be the most popular for SH3. And I actually like the small moon better myself. That's why I converted the small moon into dds, and this is how it looks in SH4 from 3 stations: binoculars, bridge and free cam:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/SH4Img2008-04-10_5.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/SH4Img2008-04-10_4.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Carotio/SH4Img2008-04-10_3.jpg
(The images are resized twice, thus the pixelated effect)

Would a small size moon be better or is the current size okay?

[M. Sarsfield]

I would like to see the amount of light that the moon casts change depending on its phase. Right now it seems like it's a full moon out, regardless of the moon phase (excpet for a new moon).

[kriller2]

You couldn't resist doing this Carotio :rotfl: , Okay I will vote now then and promise that if this poll lead to the majority likes the small moon, it will be included as default in PE2 ;)

[Carotio]

I would like to see the amount of light that the moon casts change depending on its phase. Right now it seems like it's a full moon out, regardless of the moon phase (excpet for a new moon).

The screenshots are indeed a full size moon. Though my image shown the moon in full size in all 16 phases, the game automatically shows the moon phases by "eating" a piece of the moon. When using the binoculars, one can actually see the "eaten" part in the shadow.
With new moon the night seems darker, using the latest PE2 test scene file, and with full moon the night is bright.

@Kriller2
This is not to tease you, though I know it may look like it. Well okay, maybe just a little bit :lol: But seriously, I thought let's hear the people :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I voted 'Separate Mod'. I prefer a small moon, but I think giving a choice is also nice.

[FIREWALL]

I want my moon to look like the one on The Honeymooner's.:D

[tater]

I want the moon 1/2 degree in diameter. The sun, too.

[Mav87th]

I want what Tater wants :arrgh!:

Real moon size - real sun size

[Hartmann]

The same here

About 1/2 degree.:hmm:

the same size in the sky. it´s the cause of the moon and solar eclipses :yep:

[Dutch]

Well you know what they say, "Size Matters":hmm: ..................


On a serious note though it really doesn't matter to me as long as it "looks beliviable". I'm not that much of a stickler simply because I can imagine that making all these mods are not easy, and your not getting paid for it. BUT! It is GREATLY appreciated.:rock:

[tater]

To me it looks believable if it's ~1/2 of 1 finger width at arm's length. Anything more and I feel like i'm looking off my bridge through a telephoto.

[W_clear]

I think the moon size of E4.2 accords with reality. It was too coarse that just I did.

[Paajtor]

I think the moon size of E4.2 accords with reality. It was too coarse that just I did. Did you base your E4.2-moon on Carotio's SH3-moon, W_clear?
I remember giving you that mod a while ago, to have a look at it.

I used it in SH3 (the small version), and loved it!:up:

[Mav87th]

Easy thing to do.

Have a cameras.dat mod installed that adjusts your periscope FOV to be correct in Low zoom (32 deg FOV) and in High zoom (8 deg), then your tick marks will show you 1 deg in low - or 4 tics for 1 deg in high zoom....

[ATR-42]

I want the moon 1/2 degree in diameter. The sun, too.


i'll fourth that! agreed.

ps, the current PE2 mod has the night environment lighting just right, if find myself having a hard time on dark nights and really enjoying clear moon light nights with much more ease and hunting splendor, great balance.

[Soundman]

Perhaps a bit off subject here, but I would like to see the sun modded a bit. If you have ever seen the sun set on the water, it appears to get bigger as it gets lower on the horizon, and when it hits the horizon, you can actually see the movement. Once it hits the horizon it does not take long for it to disappear. In this game it takes forever to disappear.

[ATR-42]

i watched a sunset last week from the airplane (at work) we were at 41K east bound over the middle of US i timed it, it took 7 minuets from the time the sun hit the horizon to the time it was gone.

I have some pictures of sunsets i took from about 100 east of NJ, i'll try and dig them out...

[tater]

It takes forever to disappear because it is HUGE.

The earth turns ~15 degrees per hour. The sun/moon are ~1/2 of a degree, that means they should set, limb to limb, in ~2 minutes.

The sun and moon do NOT get bigger, it is just an illusion due to proximity of scale objects they lack higher in the sky.

[Paajtor]

Correct.

You can easily test this yourself, with a camera.
When you see such a "huge" moon or sun again, take a photograph of it...you'll be in for a disappointment, even when using a telelense.

[FIREWALL]

I think on the matter of moon size it's like BooBs (.) (.)

Size wise it's a matter of personal taste. :p

[ATR-42]

Some of these were taking at work while flying, the others were taken at sea, about 100 east of NJ while fishing.

Also note, the seas, for those that say the ocean cant be smooth as glass heres proof ;) these shots were taken from the deep Atlantic canyons (6000+ feet deep)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e53/klehmann/file974.jpg


http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e53/klehmann/file60.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e53/klehmann/file449.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e53/klehmann/file188.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e53/klehmann/file77.jpg

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e53/klehmann/IMG_0027.jpg

They arent the nicest or prettiest pictures, but they give a good idea as to the "size" of the sun...

[Paajtor]

Wow, nice!

[thasaint]

i like the moon and sun smaller

on a side note, can anyone help me with this problem?
after noticing this i upgraded to the latest drivers and it didn't help. i have TMO, RSRD, and PE, but it happens no matter what mods i have installed:
Radeon HD 2600 PRO

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5871/sh4img20080409013423781ml7.th.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh4img20080409013423781ml7.jpg)

[DrBeast]

i like the moon and sun smaller

on a side note, can anyone help me with this problem?
after noticing this i upgraded to the latest drivers and it didn't help. i have TMO, RSRD, and PE, but it happens no matter what mods i have installed:
Radeon HD 2600 PRO

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5871/sh4img20080409013423781ml7.th.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh4img20080409013423781ml7.jpg)
That's a stock scene.dat issue, if memory serves. Happened with the ATi 2xxx series. Should have been eliminated in the scene.dat PE uses :hmm:

[Soundman]

It takes forever to disappear because it is HUGE.

The earth turns ~15 degrees per hour. The sun/moon are ~1/2 of a degree, that means they should set, limb to limb, in ~2 minutes.

The sun and moon do NOT get bigger, it is just an illusion due to proximity of scale objects they lack higher in the sky.



I realize they do not actually get bigger, that is why I used the term "appear to get bigger". The point being, when the sun hits the horizon (on the water) it takes only minutes to disappear. You can witness movement. As someone stated earlier, "I timed it and it took seven minutes". It's certainly not a big issue, just an observation.

[ATR-42]

in game it seems to take between 10 and 15 minutes to fully set... i think?
the rate isnt much of an issue, heck gives us a few more seconds to enjoy krillers work, but the physical size of the sun i think should be looked at...

the current size is dramatic, which i embrace its coolness, it is after all a sim ;)

[Soundman]

Just

[Soundman]

Well, I screwed that up ! I was trying to post a pic here. To make my point about how sometimes the setting sun can look huge, check out this pic. I saw many a sunset like this when I lived in Key West. Sorry about the goof, how do you put a pic in here anyway? I could not find an answer through the forum search, but here is a link.

http://photobucket.com/image/sunset/hickerson46/sunset/sunset.jpg?o=9

[Rockin Robbins]

[quote=tater]It takes forever to disappear because it is HUGE.

The earth turns ~15 degrees per hour. The sun/moon are ~1/2 of a degree, that means they should set, limb to limb, in ~2 minutes.[quote]

There's no "should" to it, that's exactly what they do!

There is some effect from atmospheric refraction that makes this period difficult to exactly judge if you want to actually time it with a stopwatch. Basically it smears the image horizontally along the horizon. I haven't checked to see if this is reproduced in the game.

[Soundman]

[quote=tater]It takes forever to disappear because it is HUGE.

The earth turns ~15 degrees per hour. The sun/moon are ~1/2 of a degree, that means they should set, limb to limb, in ~2 minutes.[quote]

There's no "should" to it, that's exactly what they do!

There is some effect from atmospheric refraction that makes this period difficult to exactly judge if you want to actually time it with a stopwatch. Basically it smears the image horizontally along the horizon. I haven't checked to see if this is reproduced in the game.

I tend to believe at times there must be some type of effect or refraction going on. See the how big the sun is using the link in my post above for a perfect example of what I'm speaking of.

[tater]

There is refraction, 35 minutes of arc. It is pretty much equal though, so this simply delays sunset by ~1 diameter.

I said SHOULD because it should in the sim (but doesn't) ;) Not because I think it should in RL.

[thasaint]

i like the moon and sun smaller

on a side note, can anyone help me with this problem?
after noticing this i upgraded to the latest drivers and it didn't help. i have TMO, RSRD, and PE, but it happens no matter what mods i have installed:
Radeon HD 2600 PRO

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5871/sh4img20080409013423781ml7.th.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sh4img20080409013423781ml7.jpg)
That's a stock scene.dat issue, if memory serves. Happened with the ATi 2xxx series. Should have been eliminated in the scene.dat PE uses :hmm:

PE didn't fix it, neither did any other environmental mod... :(

any way you can tell me what i need to do to fix this? mebbe i'll just make my own thread

[DeepIron]

any way you can tell me what i need to do to fix this? mebbe i'll just make my own thread
Good idea... That way this thread can stay on topic...:up:

[ATR-42]

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll243/hickerson46/sunset/sunset.jpg
when i look at a picture like this, the sun is huge, it looks just like the one in PE2. so what gives? is its size as viewed based on latitude? season?

[Carotio]

I think it's the same as for the moon. Once they're close to the horisont they appear larger than when they're high up in the sky.

Anyway, as I see the poll so far, it seems that a single seperate download would seem the most popular, so I'll pack it later and release it...

[Carotio]

Message no longer appliable...

[DeepIron]

The "apparent" increase in the size of the moon and sun near the horizon is caused by and atmospheric "lensing" effect. It makes them look "bigger" than they actually are. I think this would be hard to simulate in the SH4 engine...

[tater]

With all due respect, deepiron, that is not true. There is no lensing effect that makes them bigger. As measured, they simply do not appreciably increase or decrease in size at the horizon. Any "lensing" would none the less be measurable... caliper the moon or sun, and compare to zenith. This is entirely psychological. It is because when the sun or moon is at the horizon you can compare it to the objects also on the horizon. In the case of the sun, you can actually look right at it, which in itself is an issue since you really cannot dwell on the size at zenith.

The refraction that does occur bends the path of the light such that the sun/moon appear above the horizon longer, and the setting is actually a couple minutes after they are under the horizon. It doesn't grossly change the geometry. At low altitudes in particular, you can see some distortion, but the size is largely unchanged (perhaps measurable, but were talking arc seconds here, not, "wow, that's HUGE!"). The distortion is actually a flattening in the vertical due to the atmosphere acting as a prism. So in one dimension it is actually smaller, not larger.

ATR, that image looks big because it's taken with a telephoto lens (or cropped), no more.

The sun and moon are not bigger at the horizon, period.

In fact, they are farther away at sun/moon rise or set by one earth radius.

tater

[kriller2]

I think it's a question of how do you see the sun when looking at sunsets? and most people would say it seems bigger incuding me, so that's what I am aiming for in PE 2.1 , are the sun on this picure to big ? (It's resized to 1/3 of PE2 and 1/2 of stock SH4)

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1423/newsceneworkfullsizesunog6.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newsceneworkfullsizesunog6.jpg)

[DeepIron]

Absolutely true.... I stand corrected... I was mistakenly thinking of the "mirage" effect http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/supmrge.htm which I've seen numerous times in Alaska, especially in very cold winters, and mostly across large bodies of water. It both shifts and increases the apparent size of the observed object...:oops:

[tater]

http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/index.html

Lengthy description of the moon illusion.

[tater]

^actually, this is pretty fascinating stuff.

I'm probably more touchy on this subject than most since I studied astrophysics in college.

I recognize the illusion, though, like everyone else I have it as well. The difference is that after conversations like these I hold my finger up to dispel it :)

[DeepIron]

I'm probably more touchy on this subject than most since I studied astrophysics in college.Glad you caught my error!

Sent you a PM...;)

[Carotio]

Sorry to bump my thread, but I just looked in my BtS section, and it seems that very few have looked at my moon mod there. A little strange since the poll showed some interest for a small moon mod.

EDIT:
my BtS identity gone...

[DeepIron]

Maybe it's the registration part... Most mods are up on Filefront or similar...

[Bill Nichols]

I have it and it looks great. Will this also work for SH3? If not, do you have an SH3 version?

Oops, nevermind. Found it here:

http://carotio.awardspace.com/CarotiosModSite/CompatibleMods.html

via the search function

:oops:

[Carotio]

Maybe it's the registration part... Most mods are up on Filefront or similar...

Well, if people can register on subsim, I guess they could register at BtS too.
But I don't want to force them, if they don't want to.
So I have put it on FF too then:

http://hosted.filefront.com/Carotio/2184186

[DeepIron]

Maybe it's the registration part... Most mods are up on Filefront or similar...
Well, if people can register on subsim, I guess they could register at BtS too.
But I don't want to force them, if they don't want to.
So I have put it on FF too then:

http://hosted.filefront.com/Carotio/2184186Thx Carotio... :up:

[Paajtor]

Good job, thx.:D

[W_clear]

This is my changes to the moon.

http://i32.tinypic.com/30cprlv.jpg

[Carotio]

This is my changes to the moon.

And?