RSRD: no contact for 20 days in Celebes Sea

[brandtryan]

I'm patrolling a choke point in the northern Celebes Sea--and haven't had a single contact for twenty days!

I'm running RSRD with TMO--and have my copy of "Silent Victory" at hand. It's a lot of fun looking up the dates of my patrols, and reading about what actually happened.

At any rate--according to the book--it wasn't uncommon that I didn't see anything for twenty days--but I'm getting a little ansy :ping: In general, is the merchant traffic greatly reduced with RSRD? I'm off to read the readme file again--and thanks for any replies :D

[nfitzsimmons]

Merchant traffic is greatly reduced in TMO. I've had entire patrols without seeing more than one or two contacts. And RSRD uses the historic Jamanese shipping lanes and traffic.

[brandtryan]

thanks for the info fitz :D I'll keep searching.

[iricund]

I may be wrong on this one but I think after a certain period of time in mission the game stops spawning new traffic. One of the reasons it's pointless to head back to port to rearm indefinitely. If you've gone for long periods of time like you have with no contacts I'd think about heading back to port - maybe swinging through some areas of likely traffic on the way just in case.

[swdw]

iricund- The traffic in RSRD is scripted and not random. The scripts follow the historical info on IJN and merchant ship movement.

Other campaign layers have used a combination of scripting and random spawning so what you say may apply to them. It would take a bug in the game for it to not spawn scripted traffic.

Brandtryan. There are several choke points in the celebes sea and the Japanese would occasionally rotate them. You may need to shift to another point.

Usually RSRD will shift your patrol area after meeting the specified time. The bug in the game that will bite you is the one affecting the amount of time in an assigned patrol area. Others have reported that if you save the game and quit before reaching the required time, the game starts the clock over when you reload. So you can wind up spending 2 weeks in an area you were only suppossed to patrol for 72 hours.

Are you sending in patrol reprts as required? If not, this can keep you from receiving new orders.

[WernerSobe]

yea known issue with RSRD..

by all respect i doubt that RSRD is "so" real...

One must be naive assuming that every single ship movement during WWII has been recorded somewhere and one must be totaly innocent assuming that all of this could be scripted into a mod by one person...

Fact is that japanese sea was considered as absolute no-go for US submarines until middle 44. Only few subs were sent deep into japanese waters and never came back.

and Fact is that i can go from SF to Tokio all the way surfaced without ever seeing something worth sinking when using RSRD. Ive been patroling tokio harbor for almost a month and NEVER seen anything coming in or out the bay. Thats just not right, ou cant call it realistic.

[tedhealy]

If you want traffic in RSRD, do a career out of Brisbane mid/late 42. You'll get sent near Rabaul frequently and there is quite a bit going in and out there. You'll also be able to head to the slot to interdict some warships. You should be able to dominate the tonnage leaderboard easily with a Brisbane career because there is no lack of targets (many big ones too).

That sort of leads me to a question, if I continually sink ships near a port, will they send out patrol craft/destroyers to investigate? Airplanes?

Definitely something needed for SH5 whatever and wherever it occurs is enemy traffic that adapts. If I'm sinking ships in one area, merchant traffic should be rerouted away from that area. Adding fellow AI subs would go a long way in adding to immersion if a successful sub in another area pushed traffic towards your area...anyways just daydreaming :arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

yea known issue with RSRD..


So I have heard but not experienced. I have not experienced a unsuccessful patrol.

by all respect i doubt that RSRD is "so" real...


Heck of a lot better then being out of torpedoes before reaching your first patrol area. Shooting fish in a barrel was not the way it was either. Personally I do not believe NSM is "so" real and do not use it. I also do not blast it to bits on the forum.

One must be naive assuming that every single ship movement during WWII has been recorded somewhere and one must be totaly innocent assuming that all of this could be scripted into a mod by one person...


Sure, the Japanese were not the best at record keeping. I'm sure EVERY ship movement was not recorded. The major movements are in RSRD. Perhaps some more small convoys and singletons are in order. Perhaps you need to give Lurker a break. The guy is attempting to create 4 years of shipping.


Fact is that japanese sea was considered as absolute no-go for US submarines until middle 44. Only few subs were sent deep into japanese waters and never came back.


I believe because of the extensive mines and heavily patrolled. What is your point? So, in 1944 we hope Lurker sends us to the Sea of Japan. I will be going in at night and on the surface.


and Fact is that i can go from SF to Tokio all the way surfaced without ever seeing something worth sinking when using RSRD. Ive been patroling tokio harbor for almost a month and NEVER seen anything coming in or out the bay. Thats just not right, ou cant call it realistic.

It is still a work in progress. Furthermore, I'm playing the stock traffic right now, I'm sent east of Rubal to patrol a 50 mile radius. Meanwhile, 300 miles west there are convoys going in and out of Rubal like crazy. Now, are we going to sit here and play this type patrolling offered by the stock files or attempt to make some sort of sense with it by using RSRD? BTW, just how much traffic do you expect between SF and Hawaii? Hawaii to Iwo? Maybe after Wake should some activity start. About all I agree on here is Tokio Bay should have more traffic.

[swdw]

One must be naive assuming that every single ship movement during WWII has been recorded somewhere and one must be totaly innocent assuming that all of this could be scripted into a mod by one person...

Yeah and to think one person could put out a mod with changes that were originally developed by that very same person to aircraft, campaigns, submarines, zone files, crew rosters, bombs, cloned ships, adjsutments to AI, sensors and many other things; plus rolling in a bunch of other people's mini-mods would also be awfully innocent. . . . . . except for the fact someone actually did so and we now have TMO.

Maybe you should ask tater about the info he has access to that lurker also has before slamming the mod and the modder.

As I've posted before, and maybe because I'm one of those people that have read a lot about the Pacific, I have yet to run into the "can't find anything" problem using RSRD, whether from manila/brisbane or pearl.

[WernerSobe]

I did not slam anyone, i respect and support their attempt...

And i didnt say that stock campaign is more realistic.

What i did say is that this mod is prisen to heaven like the non-plus ultra of realism. I would say it is a good idea but it is as you say work in progress and by far not finished.

The major flaw of the entire idea that it relies ONLY on the few records that are available and completely ignores Traffic that HAS exist but was never recorded. And im sure it was the major part of it. Dont forget it was war, many things were kept secret, many things sank in chaos. Not to mention about the japanese preference to exaggerate. You just have to look at HUGE diferences in american and japanese records of same events.

So my conclusion is that it is not possible to recreate accurate, and realistic traffic by relying just on available resources and ignore anything else...

Now to the most popular RSRD argument - "Now my patrol results match the historic ones"...

Ill tell you why it is so: It is not because the real subs did not find ships they have seen enough - just read the books. Its because it was a different situation. They did not kill anything that came across and it was much harder to kill something. It was a different situation - they were facing real enemies. Unpredictable and smart. Their enemies were zigzaging every 3-6 minutes and changed their speed quite often. A vessel that made 10 knots was considered slow! Hunting was much more challanging. Sometimes they let the enemy go their way just because it was a better idea at certain situation, and then there was the desaster with torpedos. The unreliabilty of MK14 has lead to captains firing all 6 tubes agains 1500 tonns vessels. And trust me - you could not go from perl to tokio all the way surfaced without finding attention.

[brandtryan]

It was not my intention to start an argument--however, I think some good has come of it. I think Werner has some good points, but I'm biased by his basically training me for this simulation, via his videos.

I've read 1/4 of "Silent Victory" and most of the other books on the American Silent Service available. It seems that aside from the horrific torpedo problems the Americans had, that alot of patrols simply didn't run into much traffic. Although Mush Morton aggressively sought it out, and found it, at great risk.

I want to have my cake and eat it to--which seems to be my problem. The stock game has me stopping every five minutes to launch torpedoes, and RSRD has me running all over the place without a single contact. If there's one thing I learned with my B.A. in Philosophy--it's that the truth lies somewhere in between. A RSRD "Light" version might be that.

Also--my fellow Americans, if I've identified you correctly--I've lived overseas for awhile (not now)--please don't take Werner's comments as aggressive--he is stating his opinion in his own way, in a second language--I think he very much appreciates the endeavors of the other modders, and realizes the vast scope that they have to deal with. If I'm not mistaken, I think he too, believes the truth lies somewhere in between--and also that we'll never get it perfect--or perhaps, even close to perfect, because of the nature of war, and the way it is recorded in historical documents.

At any rate, I'm going to uninstall RSRD because I've done two patrols now, and not run into anything. The fun part is being able to read "Silent Victory" and follow my mission along with the book, in a roundabout way. I wish there was just a "little" more action, and creative license--so I was guarenteed a few contacts per patrol. It is a game, after all.

In the end, I've benefited alot from other modder's work--and I RESPECT them all to a high degree. I've only contributed once to a piece of software--IL2 Flight Sim--I spend a few weekends making a sound pack (much like people making German and English packs for SH3 and 4). Many people benefited from it--and I'm glad I was able to make a different there.

I hope RSRD rocks on, both realistically, and perhaps as light version with more traffic, albeit unrealistic. I also hope Werner makes more training videos, and keeps his natural sinking mechanics up to date (I actually don't use it--as I don't have the patience). See a pattern here? Impatience!

Wow--I've gone on too long--maybe it was the wine at dinner. Argh.

[swdw]

You can try tater's improved campaign layers and see if that gives you what you're looking for

[lurker_hlb3]

I'm patrolling a choke point in the northern Celebes Sea--and haven't had a single contact for twenty days!

I'm running RSRD with TMO--and have my copy of "Silent Victory" at hand. It's a lot of fun looking up the dates of my patrols, and reading about what actually happened.

At any rate--according to the book--it wasn't uncommon that I didn't see anything for twenty days--but I'm getting a little ansy :ping: In general, is the merchant traffic greatly reduced with RSRD? I'm off to read the readme file again--and thanks for any replies :D
Just for the record, what time period was this "20 days of no contacts" ?


I've done two patrols now, and not run into anything.

Time period of these two patrols ?

[brandtryan]

I'm patrolling a choke point in the northern Celebes Sea--and haven't had a single contact for twenty days!

I'm running RSRD with TMO--and have my copy of "Silent Victory" at hand. It's a lot of fun looking up the dates of my patrols, and reading about what actually happened.

At any rate--according to the book--it wasn't uncommon that I didn't see anything for twenty days--but I'm getting a little ansy :ping: In general, is the merchant traffic greatly reduced with RSRD? I'm off to read the readme file again--and thanks for any replies :D
Just for the record, what time period was this "20 days of no contacts" ?


I've done two patrols now, and not run into anything.

Time period of these two patrols ?

20 days of no contact started I think, May 8th, 1942. I'm not sure that's the exact date--but it ws definately early May, 1942

The other involved new careers with the Asiatic Fleet-- December 1941 and January 1942.

[AVGWarhawk]

Werner:

And trust me - you could not go from perl to tokio all the way surfaced without finding attention.
You originally stated SF to Tokio. Sure, the Battle of Midway were subs did little of nothing except Nautilus who had dead torps, the real traffic is south west of Hawaii in the Solomons, Celebes, Java, New Guinea, Phillipines, Borneo. The Japanase were expanding south for the resources. There is not much between Japan and Hawaii. With the exception of Midway, I see no reason to have a huge armada steaming to Hawaii. That was handled at the Battle of Midway. What I would expect after Midway going West to Japan is some picket boats. Maybe a small convoy to Iwo. Not much else. Even so, it is a vast ocean between those two points. I do recall the Capt of the Wahoo on four engines from Japan to Hawaii on the surface racing to get to port because he was so pissed about the dead torps. . No planes, no shipping seen as he motored 21 knots between those two points.


But, I agree that some singletons and small convoys should spawn every now and then. Celebes should be a bit busy starting in 42.

[nfitzsimmons]

For what it's worth I'm currently commanding the USS Drum with RSRD installed. If nothing else Lurker appears to have done a superb job with the November Philippine Sea scenario. In fact I now have 3 different saved games to allow me to try engaging each of the 3 IJN task forces.

I get the appropriate flash traffice from the correct historic units (the Cavalla and Albacore) and the whole experience is very immersive.

One saved game is engaging the task force as it leaves Tawi Tawi, the second involves the AO's and replenishment tanker convoys west of Guam, and the third (trying this now) is the main force.

Just for the helluvit I tried patroling at the east end of the San Bernardino Strait starting around November 13th. On the 16th I got a sonar contact, and now I appear to be engaging major IJN forces. I'm currently at periscope in the middle of the task force, and have so far spotted 4 fleet carriers, 2 escort carriers, 4 BB's and uncounted CA's CL's and DD's.

I have the external camera enables, and from an altitude of about 1,000 feet the task force appears to go clear to the horizon. Great job on this scenario!

Now I'll probably get my butt depth charged as soon as I shoot. I'll settle for getting one BB or CV, though. And surviving, or course.

[AVGWarhawk]

nfitzsimmons,

You are exactly were the activity was! The chains of islands and major land masses were the Japanese were taking with impunity. Sounds like fun:up:. Lurker sends you logical places IMO. Flash traffic is great and real. Also, if the area you are in is dead, you are the captain, sail off to find a better place to hunt. The game will not retire you for not completing one area of the patrol. I have done that before. I have never been retired for poor performance. The ships are there, you have to find them.

[nfitzsimmons]

I just read Clash of the Carriers (an excellent book by the way) and since my career was getting close to that date I decided to see how much of the battle was modded, so I thought I'd look at some of the historic "hot spots." And so far everything is where is should be.

Talk about a target-rich environment... On one of the 3 scenarions I'm playing I got an SD radar contact of a "large convoy." Zooming in on the map it seemed to be two interwoven "convoys" of 20 objects each in formation moving east at about 200 kts.

Finally figured out that these were aircraft, and were part of a carrier-launched air strike against the US task force 58.1.

Plotted a back course for them, went to flank speed and several hours later found the middle IJN TF.

Very nicely scripted.

[AVGWarhawk]

I just read Clash of the Carriers (an excellent book by the way) and since my career was getting close to that date I decided to see how much of the battle was modded, so I thought I'd look at some of the historic "hot spots." And so far everything is where is should be.

Talk about a target-rich environment... On one of the 3 scenarions I'm playing I got an SD radar contact of a "large convoy." Zooming in on the map it seemed to be two interwoven "convoys" of 20 objects each in formation moving east at about 200 kts.

Finally figured out that these were aircraft, and were part of a carrier-launched air strike against the US task force 58.1.

Plotted a back course for them, went to flank speed and several hours later found the middle IJN TF.

Very nicely scripted.


This is were RSRD comes into play. The major engagements and areas that are target rich that should be target rich.....around the island south of Japan. Keep reading the books and you will see the game plays like the real thing. Days without sightings and then all hell breaks loose. I hope you nail a few:up:

[nfitzsimmons]

Been playing RSRD since I reinstalled SHIV a coupler of months back. You're right; knowing where the historic events took place means that you'll find targets there. Rabaul, Guam, formosa, and the Bungo Straits leap to mind. I've been quite successful with those locations.

[AVGWarhawk]

Let's face it, sometimes your patrol will only bag 1 or 2 ships. You are forced home do to fuel or you get whacked by a plane/DC. RSRD is just great compared to the stock traffic. Although the stock traffic is fun every now and then but were is the challenge? There is not much of one really.

[Wilcke]

RSRDC is essential! I always suggest that you do your first patrol box stock while you read something pertinent such as Blairs', Silent Victory or another book on the topic. When done with the patrol and the book, load up RSRDC and set sail. Its a whole different sim!

[lurker_hlb3]

20 days of no contact started I think, May 8th, 1942. I'm not sure that's the exact date--but it ws definately early May, 1942

The other involved new careers with the Asiatic Fleet-- December 1941 and January 1942.

Here May 42

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/lurker_hlb3/may42.jpg

Here Jan 42

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/lurker_hlb3/jan41-42a.jpg

Here Dec 41

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/lurker_hlb3/jan41-42.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

Looks like heavy traffic to me as it should be in those years. Many a skipper wanted to run that slot from Java up to Celebes because it was busy. Hunt and they will come!

[brandtryan]

k, those pictures convinced me I need to be more patient. I've loaded up RSRD v15, and am now in Dec. 41. I've run into a minelayer, thinking it was the invasion force hitting Legaspi (see page 133 of "Silent Victory". I was there on the 10th of Dec., and now I'm leaving as it's the 12th--I didn't see the Jap forces that were supposed to invade on the 11th. However, I've been tasked with patrolling another area further south--hoping for the best! (BTW I didn't sink the minelayer--he was manuevering way too much. I need to learn how to hit manuvering targets. The only ones I get are going in straight lines!

[Lt commander lare]

i agree with avg warhawk this is a great mod and lurker was at his best while doing this but its not a shooting gallery it invloves patience and its alot of fun too

lt cmdr lare

[lurker_hlb3]

the invasion force hitting Legaspi (see page 133 of "Silent Victory". I was there on the 10th of Dec., and now I'm leaving as it's the 12th--I didn't see the Jap forces that were supposed to invade on the 11th.


It's there:smug:

[THE_MASK]

AAAArrrrgggghhhhh :huh: , spoiler pictures. Best mod yet for SH4 . Cheers bro .

[brandtryan]

the invasion force hitting Legaspi (see page 133 of "Silent Victory". I was there on the 10th of Dec., and now I'm leaving as it's the 12th--I didn't see the Jap forces that were supposed to invade on the 11th.


It's there:smug:

Err,yeah, I didn't find them--but they just found me :o

[DrBeast]

the invasion force hitting Legaspi (see page 133 of "Silent Victory". I was there on the 10th of Dec., and now I'm leaving as it's the 12th--I didn't see the Jap forces that were supposed to invade on the 11th.

It's there:smug:
Err,yeah, I didn't find them--but they just found me :o

RUN AWAAAAAAY!!!

(sorry, can't resist using a Monty Python classic whenever opportunity arises!)

[brandtryan]

Okay, I'm getting into this. I just spotted this ship in a large convoy that is heading South of Legaspi:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/chitosesp_t.htm

Awesome! My only question is why they aren't entering the Legaspi bay area--but are moving south instead. I've been taking positions every 15 minutes. The course of the convoy seems very erratic. For the past few hours they have been "hovering" around the entrance to the bay area--but now seem definately heading south.

On a side note--any advice on how to track a particular contact in the midst of many contacts? I've been starting with the "fringe" contacts on either end--which can span 50 degrees--then I just ping in the exact middle bearing, no matter what.