Narwhal/Tench Class 3D Models

[mcaa666]

After installing TMO (IMO the best mod out there) and reading the txt file about the pseudo narwhal and the inability of Ducimus to model in 3D my brains went into overdrive.
A bit of history about myself: I'm a freelance 3D modeler that concentrates on building cars in 3D.
When i started working with 3D software i wanted to mod cars for Midtown Madness ( i know not really a direct link to subs).
Since then (1999) i've been learning and learning (i did not go to any school for this, i learned it all by myself) and now it's time for me to do what i wanted to do when i started and that's game modding.
Since SH3 & 4 are two of my alltime favourite games i wanted to do something for them.
I guess the Narwhal would be a cool place to start.
Only thing is.... i need reference pictures on what models you guys want.
So any help is welcome.

You can send it to: Mcaa666@hotmail.com

Thnx for all the help

P.S. if anyone is up for it: i might need some help texturing it.

[Ducimus]

I think in one post, you'll probably have made yourself one of the most popular people in modding, in two different forums!

If you want lots of pictures of the Narwhal, heres a good place to start:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08167a.htm
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08168a.htm

[mcaa666]

That's cool hahaha, well i hope i can live up to your expectations.
Thnx for the links.
ducimus, do you have any idea's about early or late war configurations?
And anyway to get the second deck gun working?
I understand it is an issue with the switch option not being available for deckguns but only for flakguns?
Isn't it possible to switch the positions of the flakgun with those of the deckguns?

[CinC Battleforce]

you may also find Tench class photos there as well

here are some links to Tench

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/04idx.htm
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/lode.php?language=E&period=&idtrida=481

and i can give you a page number in a book, but that probably wouldn't do you any good

[DeepIron]

If it's your goal to add new vessels to SH4, I strongly urge you to read through this thread: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=111177
before you get started modeling new vessels. At the current time, it is not possible to add new vessels to SH4 until we find a way to create SH4 .dat files, a project that is being currently worked on by Skwasjer and his S3D utility. There are a number of "support" files that have to be created along with the model as well.

Not to throw a wet blanket on your enthusiasm, just wanted you to know... :up:

[Ducimus]

do you have any idea's about early or late war configurations?
And anyway to get the second deck gun working?
I understand it is an issue with the switch option not being available for deckguns but only for flakguns?
Isn't it possible to switch the positions of the flakgun with those of the deckguns?


The configurations on the conning tower, you can see from the pictures. Look at the early and late war pictures. But in essence, not very different from any other class of submarine. The problem is, during a refit, the 2nd deck gun gets removed and disappears. Thats why i removed refits and put it at its midwar configuraiton. As for deck guns, theres no functionalty within the game to cycle deckguns like you can cycle flak guns. So the crew has to control the 2nd gun while you can operate only one of them.


As to the Tench, i dont think theres any need to do a tench. Its wartime appearance is the spitting image of a Balao, and a cloned Balao does that quite well.

[CinC Battleforce]

well i desagree they looked alot alike but the Tench had a knuckle on the bow while a Baloa had a Gato type bow. I will show you what i mean

Tench class
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/usa/ss/img/rys-ss421.gif

Balso class
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/usa/ss/img/rys-ss306.gif

Gato class
http://www.warshipsww2.eu/usa/ss/img/rys-ss213.gif

If i knew how to put the pics directly up here in the post i would. So sorry for just the links. I would love to see a Tench class model just for the historic side of things

[mcaa666]

In regards to building new .dat files.
My understanding is that i can import .obj files (basicly the 3D files) into existing .dat files so i take Ducimus' Pseudo Narwhal and change the model that's in there.
At least that was my intention.
But anyway i can still start building i guess.
Other than that i would like to mention that this is going to be a LOT of work and that i don't underestimate the task that lies ahead.
Personally i think the Narwhal is (was) one of the coolest boats out there and knowing the level of perfection i care to put in all my models i hope you won't be dissappointed.

Greetz Mcaa666

P.S. I'm in the middle of moving to a new house so work on the model will probably begin around the 1st of April

P.P.S I'm also building the 1/72 USS Gato Modelkit from Revell and it struck me that the Gato Class ingame lacks a little length. Any comments on that?

[Hitman]

I guess the Narwhal would be a cool place to start.


I LOVE YOU :D

Please please do it, we NEED it, the sim will never be complete without a Narwhal :D :D :D

[Sledgehammer427]

the sim will never be complete without a Narwhal

Agreed. its like that one last peice of the puzzle

i wish i could help, but im afraid my 3d modeling skills stop at doughnuts sitting on cones...

and about the 2 deck guns ordeal... my information may be misplaced, but i saw in game shots of a balao with 2 5 inchers fore and aft, maybe theres a way to port that, or have i been looking at the SH4 manual too much?

[rebel5555]

I was watching a show on the History Channel "Battle 360". The first episode was about the battle of Midway and mainly focused on USS Enterprise. But, USS Nautilus was mentioned that it had attacked a Battleship with all Dud Torpedoes and was continuously chased by a Japanese Destroyer which eventualy led a Squadren of US Dive Bombers to the Japanese Fleet. In the Show, USS Nautilus Had a Late War Conning Tower, Part of it's Deck was wood (probably Oak from the conning tower to about 20 feet to bow and stern), and it had two Naval Artillery pieces one Fore and One Aft.

[CCIP]

I guess the Narwhal would be a cool place to start.

I LOVE YOU :D

Please please do it, we NEED it, the sim will never be complete without a Narwhal :D :D :D

:yep::yep::yep:

:up:

[mcaa666]

Thnx for all the feedback so far.
I've go lots of reference material now but what i need now are some photo's showing the rudder and prop section (this will be hard to find i know because most of the photographed boats are in the water) but if anyone can find any or has any they would be most welcome.
Regarding importing/exporting into .dat files, i guess i will have to wait for that option to come to S3D, but in the meanwhile i will start on the 3D model soon.
During that time it is my intention to post screenshots of the model as it develops.

Stay tuned ....more to follow once i'm settled in my new house around the first of april.

Cheers...

[thefretmaster]

hey there! im very interested to see some of your work. I am learning 3ds max at the moment and hope to go on to study it at university soon.
have you got a website with any of your previous work on it?
cheers

[Hitman]

what i need now are some photo's showing the rudder and prop section (this will be hard to find i know because most of the photographed boats are in the water) but if anyone can find any or has any they would be most welcome.

Ask and you shall receive :D (Note these pics are mainly about the Argonaut, but simmilarities are nearly total to Narwhal/Nautilus):


http://aycu21.webshots.com/image/49180/2002260521082270652_rs.jpg




http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/47563/2002214529406420490_rs.jpg





http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/49296/2002272162805701980_rs.jpg

[LukeFF]

Thnx for all the feedback so far.
I've go lots of reference material now but what i need now are some photo's showing the rudder and prop section (this will be hard to find i know because most of the photographed boats are in the water) but if anyone can find any or has any they would be most welcome.

Do pick up a copy of U.S. Submarines Through 1945 if you don't have it already. It has lots of good information on the Narwhal and Nautilus.

[mcaa666]

@ Thefretmaster: i'm sorry i don't have my own website yet, but if you want i could email you some renders. note: these are mainly cars.
If you want some pics let me know.
I would also like to point out that i only work in lightwave and not in 3DSMax.

@ Hitman:Woohoo you made my day!
the top picture: awesome
But that blueprint is exactly what i needed; thank you very much, this solves a lot of questions regarding the hullshape.

@ LukeFF: Is this some sort of book or magazine you are refering to?
I live in Holland so i don't know if I can get it here

[GerritJ9]

"US submarines through 1945" is a book by Norman Friedman and can be ordered from any bookshop. You can also order it from the French website www.avions-bateaux.com, they will post it to Holland. However....... it is an expensive book at 85,80 Euros plus postage:cry:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Great news in this thread :up:


RDP

[Hitman]

Hey mcaa666, :D

I found these pictures that one of the Devs posted some time ago in another Narwhal thread. Might be useful for you RE the two conning towers that were used on those subs (early & late war models respectively):

http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/52141/2002381030858990429_rs.jpg



http://aycu19.webshots.com/image/49578/2002306130954960807_rs.jpg



And please ask for any other info you need and can't get, we'll be trying to help :D :D

[Spyah]

As fan of MCAA666 's work , i'm gonna follow this topic :lol:

Make us dazzle dude , but i know you will :up:

[gimpy117]

bump....any progress??

[swdw]

Here are some pics of the V-class boats including the stern of the Narwhal prior to initial launch.
http://www.pigboats.com/subs/v-boats.html

[mcaa666]

Sorry Guys, no real mentionable progress yet.
I guess my statement of moving into my new home by april first wasn't realistic.
I still have a lot of work to do to fix the place up, so realisticly speaking i guess the first of may would be much closer to the thruth.
On the other side i did manage to do enough research on the narwhal class submarine to state that i can start modeling whenever i choose to.
Spyah can confirm that when i start modeling i will commit myself 100 % doing as much work in as little time possible.
Sorry for the delay (i know how much this model is anticipated by all you subbers).
I hope this doesn't dissappoint you to much, but i have to set my priorities straight.

In the mean time i hope you guys keep this thread alive by discussing all things related to the narwhal class and maybe throw in some ideas on how detailed the model in your opinion should be.

Cheers, Mcaa666

P.S. @ Spyah, Welcome aboard dude, i hope you see some interesting mods here at the forum and might i suggest you download the latest Trigger Maru (TM) including the service packs. It will totally turn your SH4 around.
See you at the poker tables.

[gimpy117]

yeah no problem, besides we all know real life comes first.

[Spyah]

That is indeed totaly true... When the guy starts moddeling he does not stop :D, Sometimes not even to sleep hehe.

[Hitman]

Can someone tell how many polys have the other submarines? :hmm: That would be a good guide for mcaa66 to start with :yep:

Also, can someone help determining which interior would be the best one for the Narwhal class? I take it that modelling the interior is not worth it, since we lack detailed pictures and it is a lot of extra work for something that will anyway look very similar to the current ones :hmm:

I would be tempted to suggest the P-class interior, because it looks somewhat "older" than the Gato, but do yo guys notice difference in amplitude? The Narwhal was as cramped as any submarine, yet probably more spacier that other smaller models.

[castorp345]

i'm sorry i don't have my own website yet, but if you want i could email you some renders. note: these are mainly cars.
If you want some pics let me know.
I would also like to point out that i only work in lightwave and not in 3DSMax.


could you post some pics here of your car renders? 'would love to see your work!
:ping:

cheers
hc

[gimpy117]

yeah i wouls think the p class would work, the p classes were made shortly after the narwhals right? so i think that would work.

[mcaa666]

Well I could post some car renders here but i don't know whether this is the right forum for it.
I think it would be better to check http://www.smcars.net/forums/search.php?searchid=515331.
This is a list of most of my models, i don't know if you should be registered to view the pics.
Otherwise i can send my portfolio to your personal e-mail.

Note that all models are WIP's (Work In Progress).

Let me know, what you think.

As for the polycount of ingame subs, it's aroun 37000 to 43000 i believe (this is without guns and stuff)

[modisch]

don't sweat the progress.... everyone works on their own time. It's not like anyone here is getting paid by UBI.

And the car models look awesome. I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward to some new sub models.

-m

[mcaa666]

Cool that you like the models, but bear in mind that those cars have over 4 to 5 million polygons.
There is no game engine to date that can generate such high details.
I have to say that modeling new subs is a bit of a challenge due to poly count limits.
Coz when i model those cars the only thing i have to worry about is whether or not i achieve total realism in case of for instance bodylines.
Some tweaks i do to create more realistic bodylines can take up the better portion of a week if not longer, and with such intense modeling i can't worry about polycounts.
Creating models for games is very different and a lot harder because i have to make fairly detailed models with as few polys as possible.

So... A challenge it is!!!!

Cheers

[modisch]

yah. I'm familiar with modeling (not that I can do it). Do any modeling programs have tools to downsize the poly count? Sort of like jpg compression?

hopefully the lines of the subs will help you spare some of the polycount on curves. My understanding is that's where the polys go wild.

Glad you like a challenge. The next challenge will be some of the detail people pointing out you missed a rivet. ;)

Cheers,

-m

[gimpy117]

i am looking foward to this....gald to see such a crack modeler on the case

[mcaa666]

@ Modisch, As said before i work with Lightwave and it has special plugins to reduce polycount but i find them too faulty.
I myself have a sort of sixth sense about polyflow and to get the maximum detail with the least polygons.
And you're right, rounded edges as you find with those sub models do make up a large section of the overall polycount.
For instance: the doorpanel of the Audi R8 i modeled (see link) consists of 879 polygons; of those polys only 35 make up the initial panel the rest is used in the beveled edges.

As for the rivets missing: i don't know how many rivets were used but i AM crazy enough to do them all (if I was working on a highpoly model).
For me it is all about creating 3D objects which are not recognizable as CGI and thus look real.

[kylesplanet]

@ Modisch, As said before i work with Lightwave and it has special plugins to reduce polycount but i find them too faulty.
I myself have a sort of sixth sense about polyflow and to get the maximum detail with the least polygons.
And you're right, rounded edges as you find with those sub models do make up a large section of the overall polycount.
For instance: the doorpanel of the Audi R8 i modeled (see link) consists of 879 polygons; of those polys only 35 make up the initial panel the rest is used in the beveled edges.

As for the rivets missing: i don't know how many rivets were used but i AM crazy enough to do them all (if I was working on a highpoly model).
For me it is all about creating 3D objects which are not recognizable as CGI and thus look real.

Well I admire your ambition and look forward to your work.:yep: I like the Narwhal but I hope to see the Tench class also!;) Sounds like you know your stuff on this.:yep:

[Hitman]

What were the external visible differences between Tench & Balao? I don't remember that they looked differently :hmm:

[CinC Battleforce]

the Baloa had a rounded bow like in the other subs of the GATO class, The Tench had a knuckled bow

well try to show what i mean if i can find pics

[gimpy117]

bump

[kylesplanet]

What were the external visible differences between Tench & Balao? I don't remember that they looked differently :hmm:

I started looking Hitman and I think you're probably right. I was looking at pics of converted conning towers.(I think Guppy conversions??) I'm sure there are a few differences but I don't know if it is enough to completely remodel the thing.

[Hitman]

Balao above, Tench below. The bow fairwater of the Tench certainly looks a bit more rounded, and the Balao more straight. It's however something you must pay a lot of attention to, and possibly never noticeable if you didn't know it :hmm:

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/9727/balaotenchmg2.jpg

[gimpy117]

still working???

[mcaa666]

Still working?!? Hehehe, not even started yet.
As for the schedule; i will move into the new house on tuesday so i guess i could start modeling on tuesday night.
Depending on when the internet people come and hook me up i think i can show the first progress screenshots the weekend after that.
I also understand that S3D 'finally' has an import/export feature so that's another hirdle out of the way.

Strangly i still haven't seen someone here who is willing to help with the texture part of the operation. Any volunteers?

I would like to point out that i myself am very eager to start modeling(especially with all the research i've done in the last month) so i share your inpatience.

Stay tuned the narwhal will be docking in a port nearby soon.

[Hitman]

Yeeeehawwww :D

Strangly i still haven't seen someone here who is willing to help with the texture part of the operation. Any volunteers?


Well I had thought about offering some help but sadly my skills are very poor and I don't have 3DSMax or similar. I made some painting and texturing for a F1 Challenge mod some time ago using a freeware 3D program called zanoza 3d modeller. Sadly it doesn't seem to handle well too high poly models, so I'm unsure wether it would accept yours.

Other that that, if I can be of any help just ask :hmm: Trust me, I would love to help you more, but I lack the needed skills :damn:

[mcaa666]

Thnx Hitman i guess any help is better than no help at all.
We will keep in touch, okay?

P.s. Actually Z-modeler( Z stands for Zanosa) is the program with which it all began for me coz z-modeler was and still is the only 3d program that lets you edit most gamecar geometry, like NFS, GTR, GTA and so on.
The reason i changed to Lightwave is indeed the poly-usage.

[Hitman]

BUMP

so you don't forget us mcaaa :D Hope all went well with your house moving and you are soon back online :up:

[CinC Battleforce]

I really hope this model project hasn't been drerailed.........it would be a nice thing to have these boats in the game.

[Hitman]

Mcaa666 last activity in the forum: 14th July

Looks to me like another one gone :hmm:

[Factor]

:cry: