Stuck...on first mission

[Mariner8]

I am something of a veteran of Jane's 688(I) HUnter Killer simulation. The Los Angeles sub in Sub Command is virtually identical to the earlier sim so I really had no problems getting to grips with Sub Command. I might point out that I bought these games in the Naval Combat triple pack and have read thoroughly the 688 manual, although I haven't read or printed out the Sub Command manual as I didn't want to waste all that ink only to find that the manual didn't teach me anything new (I've had that annoying experience in the past)

However as embarrassed as I am to admit it, I can't complete the first mission Super Escort, where you have to escort a super tanker through a straight and sink enemy subs. :oops: I've deployed towed array done radar sweeps listened for ESM etc. But the problem is this; I can't seem to get above 17 knots even with flank speed ordered. Why is this? Also, the sea is very shallow and I have sometimes run aground. The tanker you escort travels at around 11 knots meaning that even at 17 knots I can't get much ahead of it to clear the area. I've tried slowing down to 4 knots to listen passively, but have only heard enemy torpdeoes so far :shifty: I've tried active sonar, with both single and continous ping, but in the busy straight contacts have been inconclusive.

Afetr about 10 attempts all my missions have followed the pattern of this; I manage to get a little bit ahead westwards of the tanker, slow down to listen out for subs, but only hear neutral shipping or enemy torpedoes by which time either I have been sunk or the tanker has.

So can anyone explain how this mission is supposed to be won.?I found it quite frustrating that the grizzled combat veteran I was in 688 (or that's how I like to imagine myself :lol:) could be so easily beat in a sim so similar. Appreciate any help! :)

[Stonn]

Just back to SC myself after playing a "few" other games the past year and a bit.
Reinstalled SC, patched to 108 and then added SCXII.
Try the first mission with that combination! :doh:

As the scenario opens you are "cavitating" and within 20-seconds the tanker is sunk - game over!

I have no idea how to get past it...foolishly I've opened that mission 3 times to the same result?!?

[kittpeak]

I have same situation, 30 second maximum and game is over with end of escort and tanker sink.
Can the problem be due to SCX? :arrgh!:

[Pisces]

...I can't seem to get above 17 knots even with flank speed ordered. Why is this? Also, the sea is very shallow and I have sometimes run aground....I think you've provided the reason yourself allready. Damage!

Your detection capability very much depends if you are using stock SC or with the mod SCX. And you didn't tell which passive sonar you used. IIR(hearsay)C, 688(i) HK had detection favouring in broadband waterfalls, where as SC is better with narrowband. And TA is allways best for detecting subs, as long as you don't drag the TA across the seabed. But you should know that allready.

I don't exactly know why the game ends so soon. Or how to correct it. But it is obviously not balanced well, favouring the enemy.

[kittpeak]

Hi all,

I have removed SC with SCX, and reinstalled only SC with 1.08 version, and now this mission works very well! :up:

[Frame57]

Try this. Forget about getting ahead of the tanker. Go slow and forget the TA. TA are not designed for shallow water in real life. Use your high frequency sonar located on Dive station. Get a couple of fish in the water and set your presets so you do not take out the tanker. the attacking subs will now be on the defensive. I think these other subs are pretty close so watch your run to enabble setting also.

[kittpeak]

Hi Frame,

do you have already completed this mission with SCXII installed?

Thanks

[Frame57]

Hi Frame,

do you have already completed this mission with SCXII installed?

ThanksYes, and I will replay it to see how it went. These kind of missions bore the donkey squat out of me. Do you think think the outcome is different using the stock game versus SCX?

[Frame57]

Yes, I see where you un-installed it and it works for you. Hmmm! The mods only affect the sensors and weps etc... But the overall mission itself should be the same. So this makes it more interesting. Remember the last training mission in 688i? The one where you are going against a skilled sub skipper? The secret to that mission is that he is already relatively close and the thing to do was NOT to deploy towed array and Immediately go to 3 knts. And 9 out of 10 times you can bag the guy fairly easily. Also what I have found in these so called missions is they want you to go to PD to get comms. Forget it! They are useless. The fact you make noise by raising your mast gives you away. This is particulary true in DW quick missions. I sue the SC mission basically for a learning curve when i started it. The fun for me is to have my nephew make some intricate mission in the editor and play the game that way. Or I make them myself and play them in a couple of weeks and pretty much have forgotten precisely what I set up. But I do agree that for some reason I had beeter performance with my SUBROCS in stock game than with mods. They are so bad I do not use them anymore which is a shame. They have the "run to enable" so screwed up, yet no one here accepts the fact. The manual is clear in using ROCS that run to enable is how far the weapon flys till it drops the torpedo. The measure is in yard and I had an enemy sub at 22K yards and set the RTE at 21K yards. The missile flew over by miles!!! So i decide to let the auto crew try it and they set the RTE at 7 (not 7K) yards and the ROC dropped the payload not even halfway to the target. So until someone fixes it or I get privy to tweaking these files myself these will be continous issues. But still a fun game.

[Robsoie]

I believe the problem of this mission is that it is not very well designed, i believe you should have a bit more advance on the tanker at the start, while actually you nearly start on the same line.

Basically if you want to save the tanker you need to get ahead of it.

The tanker is speeding at 11 , up to the middle of the escort zone, water depth is no less than 90 (at some point of the mission i forgot to check and hit the ground at depth 58) , you start by cavitating, tha tanker start +/- near you, so you don't even have some advance in the beginning.

To get ahead, you need to speed up, you can't really dive low as the sea floor is very near the surface, so you will cavitate.

Not a problem in the beginning, but after +/- 10 minutes, as the escort zone is short, you will really need to slow down as you enter the dangerous zone.

It is there you have a small margin to detect the enemy subs. If you detect nothing, soon enough the tanker will be at your side and you will hear "torpedo in the water", as the tanker is very noisy.

On my attempt (without SCU/SCX) after reading this thread, i couldn't save the tanker, a "torpedo in the water appeared when we reached +/- the middle of the zone.

I fired a torpedo immediately after the message, as i found the enemy torp on narrowband and so could +/- locate the fire zone.

Enough minutes after, a first explosion, tanker destroyed followed by a second explosion a minute later : a kilo is destroyed.

As i refuse to use the AI crew , having my fun by detecting things myself, i really need some help on saving this tanker.
The sea floor being that near to the surface is really not helping anything.

[Frame57]

yeah, this mission is a toughy. I played it twice more with limited success. You are right you have to get ahead of the tanker. I used ESM to find surface craft to avoid targeting them. So I pick up on Radar what i thought was a Kilo because I visually saw nothing in that direction using the scope. Active sonar produced nill aswell. My harpoon would not aquire the surfaced Kilo even though I had it on Narrow search, but instead I guess Gilligan showed up again and the poon takes out a cruise ship. So I try it again only this time using snapshot coordinates and damned if it did screw up again. So to fair to Gilligan, I know now that the Kilos are at the far end of the run on opposite ends. Using active sonar seems to keep them from performing an early assault so once i was in water where the depth would be sufficient so my torps would not bottom out I snapped shot 4 Mk 48's. I had a very weak signal on Kilo #2 that I could not see on the monitor using active sonar, so I guessed at the snapshot coordinate. Give this tactic a shot and let me know how you fair with it?:arrgh!:

[Frame57]

Just back to SC myself after playing a "few" other games the past year and a bit.
Reinstalled SC, patched to 108 and then added SCXII.
Try the first mission with that combination! :doh:

As the scenario opens you are "cavitating" and within 20-seconds the tanker is sunk - game over!

I have no idea how to get past it...foolishly I've opened that mission 3 times to the same result?!?Make sure "show truth" is off becaue a kilo launches a missile at the tanker. i think the designers set it up so if you use that, the scenario is even more difficult.

[Robsoie]

I went ahead at full speed ahead of the tanker, had to go at depth 40 because the sea floor was coming dangerously near my sub.

Then once i thought i was in the "danger zone" and could now be in enemy sonars, i slowed down to +/- a speed of 2.

After looking at narrowband and broadband and always noticing no contact on any panels, i decided to ping the water as that damn tanker was going full speed and my advance of it was becoming smaller and smaller and always saw nothing.

So i used the periscope and far away at +/- bearing 300 in zoom maximum i saw what looked like something "light blue" on the "deep blue" of the water, but it could just have been a visual bug .

As the shape of that bizarre anomaly was strangely similar to one of a sub (like if it was floating on the water, i snapshot-ed it and launched a torpedo at this far away snapshot that i designed as a sub platform.

And i was right, as after some time, explosion -> kilo destroyed. That strange bug (as it was the shape of the whole sub instead of just a periscope) for once was helping.

During that time, sadly the tanker certaionly commanded by some really stupid guy arrived at my side always at full speed, and then "torpedo in the water" with the conclusion minutes later that tanker went down with the fishes.

A second torpedo was in the water after that while i was again trying to ping everywhere, obviously i was the target as i was revealing myself, so i moved away while firing another torpedo to where the enemy one +/- appeared.

Launching countermesures just in case and going away, unfortunately i lost the wire and the torpedo went berserk living a life of its own.

I used again the periscope and clearly saw what looked like another periscope relatively near in a different direction from where was coming the torpedo, there was a 3rd enemy sub ? .
No wonder that idiotic tanker stood no chances...

Good that i used the periscope, as there was a far away civilian ship that i could have hit with a random shot if i believed the sonar contacts.

Strangely exploring the narrowband showed always nothing related to any kind of submarine (and the broadband was always looking the same, at least it showed my torpedo going away).
I stopped pinging this time (as i remembered the enemy torpedo running somewhere).

So i snapshoted the enemy periscope, and launched another torpedo.

Unfortunately, as i was following the events on periscope i totally forgot to check what was happening with the enemy torpedo, where it was and where it was heading on.
I should have looked and used another countermesure while going elsewhere because soon after while looking at periscope to check the behaviour of the enemy while my torpedo was away i was hit and sunk by that roaming torpedo launched by the sub i never saw.

On the debriefing i noticed the scoring said there were indeed 3 kilo against me (last time i played that mission the debrief said there was only 2).

Next time i try, i will launch salvos as you suggest Frame57 instead of making sure my contacts are indeed kilos, as i can't see how to save that damned tanker as if i slow down to catch the kilo, that idiot try to run full speed ahead of me and is always destroyed during that time even when i manage to sink a kilo before.

[Frame57]

I think the game randomly sets up a third Kilo. Because i have seen it with 2 and then 3. If the scenario was different where you did not have to protect the tanker, then a slow stealth approach would work using passive sonar. But I doubt that the Kilo's can be picked up using it. Because I was using active sonar I surfaced the boat to avoid grounding it. I went SE of the tanker and went flank while continuously pinging, so I made sure the tanker was a couple of miles away from me, then I slowed to 3 knots. i figured the Kilo's (at least one of them was in water about 140 feet (to the floor). The other was definately surfaced, but those dang harpoons just will not home in one it. So 48's were the only way to go. Interesting that one the submerged Kilo that active sonar would give me a return audible blip, but not strong enough to see the blip on the display, so I had to guess that the boat was in the SE area of the staright somewhat near a land mass jutting out of the water. that may be why the sonar signal was weak. I got the idea of steaming fast and using active sonar from my former COB who was a Torpedoman. They were more up on combat tactics than squids like me who just fixed the boat, but it seems to be the only way to beat this mission.:arrgh!:

[kittpeak]

Next time i try, i will launch salvos as you suggest Frame57 instead of making sure my contacts are indeed kilos, as i can't see how to save that damned tanker as if i slow down to catch the kilo, that idiot try to run full speed ahead of me and is always destroyed during that time even when i manage to sink a kilo before.

Hi Robsoie,

tell me if you have tried this mission with only SC 1.08 or with SCXII, please.

Thanks

[Frame57]

I noticed I said SE and meant SW. So one Kilo is SW of the lane and the other sufaced one is NW, so depending on your position one set of snapshots at about bearing 200 the other at about 310. The trick here agian because of shallow water and other surface craft is have presets for depth and enablement correct.

[Robsoie]

Next time i try, i will launch salvos as you suggest Frame57 instead of making sure my contacts are indeed kilos, as i can't see how to save that damned tanker as if i slow down to catch the kilo, that idiot try to run full speed ahead of me and is always destroyed during that time even when i manage to sink a kilo before.

Hi Robsoie,

tell me if you have tried this mission with only SC 1.08 or with SCXII, please.

Thanks

For now, i am playing those missions without SCXIIc, as i imagine they were designed for the specific sonar/detection range of the stock 1.08 game.

If you are interested to play stocks campaign with SCXIIc, i noticed someone reworked the Akula campaign for SCXIIc there :
http://www.subguru.com/missions.htm


Anyways, i edited this mission in the editor and placed the super tanker 4 nautic miles behind you.

It should make the mission less crazy due to the tanker not moving anymore ahead of you in the beginning and forcing you to speed up so much you will cavitate and be easily detected while being nearly blind.

Giving you more time to hunt enemy subs, i then removed 1 difficulty star (even if they serve no purpose, at least it warns you that this edit version of the mission is less difficult than the original 3 stars one).
I edited nothing else for the mission, so there are always a random amount of enemy sub, and they are always randomly placed.

While made for SC 1.08, having the super tanker 4 mni behind you should make the mission compatible with SCXIIc too.

You may notice the briefing text is modified, as i have downloaded a translation of the stock mission in my own langage and had not anymore the original mission files .
So i translated them back into english, and it may use different wording.

But nothing impacting the mission itself as i modified nothing else at all.

Download the edit version of the mission here
http://files.filefront.com/editmissionSM01zip/;10977629;/fileinfo.html
for people having not being able to get it from Filefront, here are some mirrors :
http://superuploader.net/83b626e537e6c5183d8c86a8f9fd0489-editmissionSM01-zip.html


Extract SM01 Super Escort Edit.ms from the editmissionSM01.zip and place SM01 Super Escort Edit.ms in your ..\Sub Command\Scenario\ folder.
Don't worry, it does not replace the original version, as i named it differently.

[Frame57]

Hi Rob, you brought up an Interesting point. The difficulty stars i knoe obviously mean the level of difficulty. But do you know if they do or do not affect certain things in the game. For awhile I thought that maybe it either increased or decreased sensor and weapons abilities. Not sure of it but would like to hear what you thibnk about it> Thanks

[Frame57]

Also, I am having keyboard problems. Need a new one. So to all who read my posts, please forgive the many typos. I do know how to spell. just toooo lazy to edit. Apologies!

[Robsoie]

Hi Rob, you brought up an Interesting point. The difficulty stars i knoe obviously mean the level of difficulty. But do you know if they do or do not affect certain things in the game. For awhile I thought that maybe it either increased or decreased sensor and weapons abilities. Not sure of it but would like to hear what you thibnk about it> Thanks
Good point,

I can't say for sure the stars have no impact on AI ranges, detections, accuracy etc... But from all my mission editor quick skirmishes i built to learn the simulation mechanics, i noticed that even changing the amount of start from 1 to 3 and vice-versa when saving the missions never seemed to give an advantage or disadvantage of any kind to the AI.

I was able to be targeted by enemy and target them myself at 1 star or 3 stars the same. So i assumed setting the amount of star is just an indication you give to the player on how the mission will be difficult.

If anyone can confirm that stars are just an indication for the player, or instead of that will have a real impact on the AI values, it would be very nice.

[Frame57]

Rob, you ever play DW? If so, what do you think of it in comparison with SC?

[Robsoie]

No i just play with 688i Hunter/Killer and Sub Command, i will certainly buy Dangerous Waters in the future, as the improvements i read in review sounds really interesting if you want to be able to control surface or air platform yourself.
The multiplayer features sounds nice if you are interested in MP, as those multiple platform seems to provide a lot more variation in MP missions.

But as i play on solo and for now i am interested by the modern submarines simulation itself, if i consider SC + SCXIIc, there is no real reasons now to move to Dangerous Waters. Maybe later when i will be totally finished with SC, but from what i see there is a long way before i do ;).


Back on to the mission.
To test if the edit version was really compatible with SCXIIc, i installed it and launched the edit version of that mission.

And there, +/- 1 minute after the game begin "torpedo in the water" , followed a minute later by a loud explosion : tanker destroyed.
Hmm, considering the tanker begin at 4 nautic miles behind you (and so behind the escort zone in which the enemy subs are lurking), and considering the extremely small time between the message and the explosion, it was certainly a missile and not a torpedo.

That means this mission is totally impossible to play with SCXIIc, as the tanker will always be destroyed by those long range missiles in the 5 first minutes .
Those long range missiles do not seem to be present in the enemy sub of that mission for stock SC 1.08.

I will try to edit the mission again and move the super tanker even more far to see if i can set this mission really compatible with SCXIIc, i just hope the mission scripts do not "reveal" magically the position of the tanker to the enemy subs, or wherever i would place it , the enemy subs will be able to see it and destroy it with surface missiles in less than 5 minutes after the mission start.

[Robsoie]

Ok, i have put the tanker starting point near singapour (at +/- 18 nautic miles from the original position of the mission)

+/- 15 minutes after the mission start, the tanker is destroyed , and judging from the early "torpedo in the water" that leave no trace on sonar, it is a surface missile.

So playing this mission with SCXIIc is impossible, the tanker will always be destroyed very soon in the mission by the kilos surface missiles.

That's what i feared, it means playing the original campaign and mission with SCXIIc is -not- a good idea as there is a lot of chance SCXIIc will completely break missions like this one.

SCXIIc is to be used for SCXIIc specifically designed missions, like the ones found here :
http://www.subguru.com/missions.htm

Or to be played with your own skirmishes in the mission editor.

I read it was possible to make 2 install of Sub Command but can't find the reference to this, if it can be done it would be a good idea to make an install with SCXIIc and one without that will keep the stock 1.08, this way you will be able to play with SCXIIc when you want and play with stock 1.08 when you want to play the original missions and campaigns.

[Robsoie]

To make this mission playable with SCXIIc, the kilos should be replaced by submarines that have no surface missiles onboard.

As i am not used to SCXIIc at all, i have no idea whatever weaponry each SCXIIc submarines come equipped with (and i have not seen anything in the mission editor allowing you to remove some weapons from an unit you place on the map), so i will not do it.
I think it would be definitively the solution for SCXIIc users, as if an enemy sub has surface missiles in its stock, it will destroy the tanker in less than 15 minutes after the mission start while playing with SCXIIc installed.
And this even if you put the tanker very far from the mission area.

But for people playing without SCXIIc, if you want to take your time to hunt every enemy kilos before the tanker arrive in danger zone, get this edited version of the mission :
http://files.filefront.com/SM01editedzip/;10995693;/fileinfo.html

And place the file SM01 Super Escort Hunter.ms (extracted from the SM01edited.zip you just downloaded) in your ..\Sub Command\Scenario\ folder

Don't worry it replaces nothing as it is named differently so you can keep the original mission and this one in the same place.

The only change of that mission is that the Super Tanker starting location is at the Singapore harbor, located at 17 nautic miles from the strait entrance and so the danger zone for it.
Additionally i lowered your sub starting speed from 9 to 7 , preventing it to cavitate as soon as the mission begin.

This gives you enough time to hunt every kilos patrolling the strait, especially if you don't use the AI crew that locate hidden subs a bit too easily in my opinon.

If you like to take your time finding yourself the enemy on your sonars, this edited version of the mission is more interesting as you don't have to rush hoping none will destroy the sub before you find them.

But remember that, while you have enough time to hunt (i tested the mission and completed it by sinking 2 kilos that i managed to locate by sonar without AI crew) with the 17 nmi advance on the main ship, the super tanker is going at a speed of 11 and more, so you have time, but you can't sleep ;)

[Frame57]

I am gonna set up a simple "run and gun" mission just to see what happens when i put 4 stars to it. I will letcha know.