Tibet, China and Olympics

[Skybird]

Youm may have heared it: in tibet, bitter tensions have broken free over the past days. Independant news sources talk of kill numbers in the three digit range. The chinese military is firing at will, the Chinese media broadcasts pictures of a marauding mob, but is hiding the many, many peaceful demonstrations, in order to give the Dalai Lama, who since many years has given up calls for independance, just asks for autonomy now, a bad name. Since the occupation starts, over one million Tibetans have been killed, murdered, and many more have been tortured. the original population was around 6 million. the Chinese try systematically the destroy the Tibetan culture by Chinese settlement programs, ethnic cleansing, and forcing Tibetans out of their home. this massacre along with the systemtically realised intention of destroying Tibetan culture, qualifies for the the definition of genoicide according to the anti-genocide convention of the UN from 1948 (or was it 52, I'm not sure this moment).

Nevertheless, china was awarded the sports festival of peace, the olympic games. how much greater a farce can be.

It does not matter if the Albanian's success with Kosovo's independance encouraged the Tibetans or not, or if their timing is aiming at the Olympics or not. To me the idea of going to China as an athlete and doing as if nothing is wrong with that place, or even signing declaration of my own government that I will not speak about critical issues in China, is most unacceptable. If I were a pro, there is a very strong chance that I would pass my nation'S sport federation's invitation to go there. If that would mean conflict, or a lifelong ban, so be it. A federation giving me troubles for not complying with the interests of their policy and the interests of place like that, probably would not deserve my service and dedication anyway, so to hell with both. One should know one's own value.

I directly compare the chinese Olympics to the Olympic summer games in berlin, which also degenerated into a propaganda show and a demonstration of the superiority of Nazi-german technology (broadcasting).

I used to say in the past that sports and poltiics should be kept seperate, and therefor no boycotts should take place. But I today ask one question: what oif the other side does not share my sentiment to keep both things different, and link it to causes of politics, and prestigious propaganda nevertheless? Can it be demanded from our athletes to make themselves available to this kind of abuse? and if they want to go there for "selfish" reasons, for having prepared so long and now wanting to show what they can do- is it acceptable to make such desires ranking higher than preventing ourselves from obeying with such propaganda efforts?

We cannot escape it - there is a strong political component in international sports, and in case of the the chinese Olmpics, it is monumental.

I vote for boycotting the Olympics.

And that is not the scandal in the mainl. The real scandal is that China even has been rewareded the Olympic games. It also display of how the power is shifting on the global stage. It is no secret that Cjhina has bought votes for the games from small and poor nations, like you and me buy milk and sweets in the supermarket.

What do you think, what is your stand on the Olympics in China?

So high developed a culture they had. So many treasures of thinking and philosophy to be found in their literature. My own thinking owes so very much to Ch'an buddhism and Lao Tse. Much shadow in their history, yes, but also so much beauty.

And then came Mao. :dead:

[FIREWALL]

A new Olympic Event.... Dodgeing Bullets.:huh:

[Platapus]

I wonder what the selection criteria is for determining where the olympics will be held?
..... other than just bribes.

The only saving grace is that the olympics are losing prestige as the years go on. I really don't see it continuing much longer. Very very expensive and few countries were able to even break even cost wise.

I know that olympic coverage here in the US is crap. If it is not an American competing in an event where we will win, good luck finding any coverage.:damn:

I remember back as a kid our entire family watching the olympics on tv. Every night we were glued there watching athletes from countries I never heard of competing in sports that I found so strange but compelling. Now it is all commercials. And basketball. When did basketball become an olympic sport??? I guess the Americans needed something they could win at?

Well it used to be fun.

[Skybird]

Greatest Olympics I ever experienced was 1984 in L.A. I consumed every bit of every day of it, it were summer holidays over here. Great atmosphere, and much "TV fever", I was completely absorbed. Never before and never after it, Olympics ever became so present on my mind again. In fact, i don'T care much at all.

Before i manage - once again - to hijack one of my own threads: back to the topic! :lol:

[Gorduz]

Actually the Norwegian athletes have been training in artificially generated smog and poor air in order to prepare themselves. I think that says alot.

[nikimcbee]

Actually the Norwegian athletes have been training in artificially generated smog and poor air in order to prepare themselves. I think that says alot.

At first I thought, this is a funny joke, but now I think you're serious.:dead:


On a side note, what are the Chinese going to do if there are protests during the olympics? Are they going to behave themselves while all eyes are on them or....
what they usually do to people when someone disagrees with them?

[nikimcbee]

Greatest Olympics I ever experienced was 1984 in L.A. I consumed every bit of every day of it, it were summer holidays over here. Great atmosphere, and much "TV fever", I was completely absorbed. Never before and never after it, Olympics ever became so present on my mind again. In fact, i don'T care much at all.

Before i manage - once again - to hijack one of my own threads: back to the topic! :lol:

On a side note, does anybody care about the summer olympics anyway? I love the winter olympics, but I could care less about the summer games.

[Yahoshua]

More importantly, what will the commies do if a foreign competitor brings up political protests DURING live competition?

Will they swallow the criticism until after the games and then deport him/her?

[darius359au]

China should never have gotten the olympic's in the first place but they offered the most amount of money to the IOC so the IOC spouted the "Olympics are above politics and for all mankind" line and chose to ignore the abuses in China - I think its time for countries to do the same thing to China as happened to Russia after the invasion of afganahstan in the 80's and boycott the games.
Of course , all the Corparations that have millions invested in "Olympics INC" would scream but thats not exactly a bad thing:up:

[XabbaRus]

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

[Steel_Tomb]

I've been reading the news stories since last night, and really think this is going to end with another massacre. China should never have been given the olympics in the first place, with the countries record on human rights and the manner in which it rules simply goes against everything the olympics are supposed to stand for. I too vote for boycotting the olympics. I doubt it, but I pray that this years olympics are an unmittigated disaster for China. The communist government needs to know there is a line, and that they crossed it a long time ago! The world is pathetic anyway, no one could give a damn about those poor sods being locked up for no reason, if it doesnt include money and trade deals they aren't interested.

[Skybird]

More importantly, what will the commies do if a foreign competitor brings up political protests DURING live competition?

Will they swallow the criticism until after the games and then deport him/her?
Some days ago I read that the Brits already had to sign obligatory agreements that they will keep their mouth shut. It was the British givernment ordering them to do it, not the chinese, as far as I know.

I think it were the Brits. correct me if I am wrong. I am sure that similiar things happen in many other national olympic commitees as well.

Freedom of speech given up for Olympia. Bah.

-----

also, traditionally and historically, participating nations were obligated, at leats in ancient times, to keep up peace and have seize-fires at least for thew duration of the games. But the brutal supression and murdering in Tibet will continue before during and after the games. So, if Olympics really would mean anything, ironically not others would need to consider to boycott, but China had to be banned for violating this ancient tradition.

[Skybird]

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

What we should do and what we could do may prove to be two separate things. China simply has become too powerful and influential to simply wave it out. Sad, unfair, bitter - but true. We shouldn'T have started to trade with them many decades ago. This is what brought them into possession of the means (machineries in the main) to become a self-supplying and now partially market-dominating power. That they would not just use our machines, but would study them copy them, and learn how to built industrial machines ba themselves - this conclusion was too much demanded from our bright politicians. The level to which the West already depend on it you can see in this simple link (quoting Joseph Stiglitz in a german essay I had set up some time ago):

From the German:
"One of the bizarre symptoms of globalisaion is that the Chinese, who opposed the Iraq war in the UN, in the end financed this war to a substantial ammount, by using their enormous dollar reserves from the trade surplus with America to buy US treasury bonds. So, a consumer democracy without any savings is borrowing from a market-leninistic state in order to fight terror."

They also use their massive reserves to form close ties with - taken for themselves: unimportant - third world countries whom they helpt pout and lead into dependenca at the same time, "buying" their votes in international councils and commitees that way. I now live by the impression that this use of "soft power" works much more in favour of their future benefit than the use of "hard power" of western nations does for the West's future perspectives. Additonally, we waste these ressources in useless enterprises. they not only save their ressources, but even increase them.

But still I think they should be amongst themselves with their propaganda olympics.

[Steel_Tomb]

I think its possible to get the western powers away from china. we just need to build up our own manufacturing base over the next decade or two, then just slap china in the face and stop all trade with them. their economy depends on exports so much it would just crash. chinese goods are crap anyway, the place is so corrupt. I mean all the cases of lead in kids toys must have done some damage.

[Platapus]

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China.

Because we have massive trade with China and very limited trade with Russia.

As scissors cut paper, profit always trumps human rights

[Skybird]

I think its possible to get the western powers away from china. we just need to build up our own manufacturing base over the next decade or two, then just slap china in the face and stop all trade with them. their economy depends on exports so much it would just crash. chinese goods are crap anyway, the place is so corrupt. I mean all the cases of lead in kids toys must have done some damage.
Oh?

There is no cheat code for "just" rebuilding the manufacturing basis. It needs to be financed, and that process is a complex thing with billions of intricacies. The current crisis at stockmarkets is not all for nothing, and once national industries today are acting as global, indepednant actors and no longer necessarily obey the ruling of national governments - it's more the other way around these years. - "Just" slap china in the face? Fact is that chinse economy is self-supplying and autark in all reghards that dirctly affect the survivability of the Chinese people, which of course especially means the agricultural sector. Their one problem is oil, like for us, but they have far moire money reserves to pay for it, plus they have close ties to many oil-producing countries inclduing the OPEC, and china can use the anti-Wetsern ressentiments in many Muslim oil-producing countries and Venezuela to work to their advantage. - Stopping all trade with them? The huge corporations do not ask for your permission to do so, you know. They have made many investem,ents, and want to see profit for that. sooner or later the Chinese will freeze many of them out and take possession of what they left behind, they already have established this as common practice, since many years. - Finally, quality, I have to say chinese goods slightly but surely imporve their quality, and in some fields they are already competing with international standards. The toys you mentioned: to a considerable ammount they were like they were due to design plans given to them from - their American orderer, Mattel. anyhow, these problems may have triggered some hyped attention, but in no way they are of the ammount that it does any damage to China'S trade and economical interests.

In other words: you understimate them, and you overestimate our own options.

The major problems they have: overaging of society due to the one-child-policy. Massive environmental pollution and poisened food. the major advanatge they have: unlimited quantities of low-wage workers, autarky regarding essential supplies for daily living of population. Monumental dollar reserves to be used as a weapon. Rapid decreasing of gap between their technological standard, and ours. An authoritative government that is not really challenged by the population. An understanding that their state-controlled economy model can profit from implementing certain principles of market economy. A rapidly increasing power of their military, of which some analysts say it already has the capacity to deny foreign navies entrance into China's local maritime sphere of interest. a massive alliance of small nations that in the UN and other bodies could be told to rally with China, and against the West.

I think we missed the time window to mess with the Chinese. We can't get them econo0mically, but they can get us. We cannot get them militarily. We cannot get them fincially, but they can get us. And they can strike the international stockmarket whenever they want - or let the mere unspoken threat of this work in their favour.

So what is left that "just" needs to be done to teach them...? - With one hint you are right, though. We cannot start by confronting them. We must start by bringing our own house in order and storm-prove. But that is a problem for Europe. And an even greater problem for America, which is depending on living on tick beyond all reason and sanity. This is not the 40s and 50s, and they will not come back

[3Jane]

Some graffiti left by former residents during the olympic preparations.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8229/59171062yj2.jpg

[Steel_Tomb]

I think its possible to get the western powers away from china. we just need to build up our own manufacturing base over the next decade or two, then just slap china in the face and stop all trade with them. their economy depends on exports so much it would just crash. chinese goods are crap anyway, the place is so corrupt. I mean all the cases of lead in kids toys must have done some damage.
Oh?

There is no cheat code for "just" rebuilding the manufacturing basis. It needs to be financed, and that process is a complex thing with billions of intricacies. The current crisis at stockmarkets is not all for nothing, and once national industries today are acting as global, indepednant actors and no longer necessarily obey the ruling of national governments - it's more the other way around these years. - "Just" slap china in the face? Fact is that chinse economy is self-supplying and autark in all reghards that dirctly affect the survivability of the Chinese people, which of course especially means the agricultural sector. Their one problem is oil, like for us, but they have far moire money reserves to pay for it, plus they have close ties to many oil-producing countries inclduing the OPEC, and china can use the anti-Wetsern ressentiments in many Muslim oil-producing countries and Venezuela to work to their advantage. - Stopping all trade with them? The huge corporations do not ask for your permission to do so, you know. They have made many investem,ents, and want to see profit for that. sooner or later the Chinese will freeze many of them out and take possession of what they left behind, they already have established this as common practice, since many years. - Finally, quality, I have to say chinese goods slightly but surely imporve their quality, and in some fields they are already competing with international standards. The toys you mentioned: to a considerable ammount they were like they were due to design plans given to them from - their American orderer, Mattel. anyhow, these problems may have triggered some hyped attention, but in no way they are of the ammount that it does any damage to China'S trade and economical interests.

In other words: you understimate them, and you overestimate our own options.

The major problems they have: overaging of society due to the one-child-policy. Massive environmental pollution and poisened food. the major advanatge they have: unlimited quantities of low-wage workers, autarky regarding essential supplies for daily living of population. Monumental dollar reserves to be used as a weapon. Rapid decreasing of gap between their technological standard, and ours. An authoritative government that is not really challenged by the population. An understanding that their state-controlled economy model can profit from implementing certain principles of market economy. A rapidly increasing power of their military, of which some analysts say it already has the capacity to deny foreign navies entrance into China's local maritime sphere of interest. a massive alliance of small nations that in the UN and other bodies could be told to rally with China, and against the West.

I think we missed the time window to mess with the Chinese. We can't get them econo0mically, but they can get us. We cannot get them militarily. We cannot get them fincially, but they can get us. And they can strike the international stockmarket whenever they want - or let the mere unspoken threat of this work in their favour.

So what is left that "just" needs to be done to teach them...? - With one hint you are right, though. We cannot start by confronting them. We must start by bringing our own house in order and storm-prove. But that is a problem for Europe. And an even greater problem for America, which is depending on living on tick beyond all reason and sanity. This is not the 40s and 50s, and they will not come back


I'm no expert in economics, I was speaking in general. If possible, we need to cut away what china uses which is its cheap labour for foreign companies. Cut away that and the economy could possibly collapse in China. I also said that it will be decades, maybe even 30 - 40 years before the west can take on china in terms of infrastructure and a manufacturing base. Personally I hate China, I think that the world has been weak, foolish and damned right ignorant in its dealings with what is essentially a dictatorship participating in the boarder-line ethnic cleansing in Tibet, and massacre of any and all opposition to the Communist regime. I hope that this years Olympia is a complete disaster, biggest in the history of the Olympics. I hope to see wide spread political turmoil in China, simply because the world has to make a stand to this barbaric regime.

Possible? Maybe. Am I talking complete crap? Quite possibly. I just get very angry when a country which has so much blood on its hands can be so prosperous. :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:

[XabbaRus]

AFAIK no UK athlete has no to sign a gag order.

[Skybird]

AFAIK no UK athlete has no to sign a gag order.
You may be wrong there:

10th of February this year:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=513362&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

British Olympic chiefs are to force athletes to sign a contract promising not to speak out about China's appalling human rights record – or face being banned from travelling to Beijing.

The move – which raises the spectre of the order given to the England football team to give a Nazi salute in Berlin in 1938 – immediately provoked a storm of protest.

The controversial clause has been inserted into athletes' contracts for the first time and forbids them from making any political comment about countries staging the Olympic Games.

It is contained in a 32-page document that will be presented to all those who reach the qualifying standard and are chosen for the team. From the moment they sign up, the competitors – likely to include the Queen's granddaughter Zara Phillips and world record holder Paula Radcliffe – will be effectively gagged from commenting on China's politics, human rights abuses or illegal occupation of Tibet.

(...)



Also:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/10/nolympics110.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/10/nolympics110.xml)
Athletes face Olympic ban for criticising China

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SPORT/02/10/olympics.britain/ (http://www.cnn.com/2008/SPORT/02/10/olympics.britain/)
British Olympic team told silence is golden

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11488&size=A (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11488&size=A)
Beijing applauds the gag order on athletes. Great Britain is reconsidering it

And also this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/7237227.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/7237227.stm)
Olympic gag row leads to review

[Skybird]

I'm no expert in economics, I was speaking in general. If possible, we need to cut away what china uses which is its cheap labour for foreign companies.
How? Paying our own workers even less? That means total social collapse of our siceities, and probabaly civil war.

Cut away that and the economy could possibly collapse in China. no, it would slow them down due to losses in export. But they are perfectly survivable by their own, regarding the basic supply of their population. And by their enormous dollar reserves they could heavily retaliate. This is an almost biblical vulnerability of the US. that this allowed to continue, and to even wieden, and not sealing this archulkles heel, is something that tells me that some major minds in Washington have no strategic understanding at all. That is like not seing the link between the Iraq war, today'S oil price, and the massive blowback the war created for internal ameircan policies, finances, and social system.

I also said that it will be decades, maybe even 30 - 40 years before the west can take on china in terms of infrastructure and a manufacturing base.
Again my question: how? Even cheaper workers? As a matter of fact, our social structures alrerady are in desintegration, and middle class slowly but increaisngly collapsing due to - in germany - every decreasing purchasing power of private households: since over ten years, wage rises did not even compensate inflation, not to mention taxes, energy prices, etc. the way the Fed handles the dollar crisis dramatically helps to increase inflation worldwide (they should be shot for their total incompetence). and the weak dollar already massively damages european exporters, in other words: in order to support the American understanding of how to fund the economy, no matter how uncompetitive some parts of it (especially steel, manufacturing standards are lacking behind 30 years), really is, money is pumped into the market like crazy and is printed as if there is no limit. The ECB's understanbding of what role it has to play, is totally opposed to that of the Fed: the ECB's primary responsibility is to try to control inflation - not to help it increasing, like the Fed's policy does.

Personally I hate China, I think that the world has been weak, foolish and damned right ignorant in its dealings with what is essentially a dictatorship participating in the boarder-line ethnic cleansing in Tibet, and massacre of any and all opposition to the Communist regime.

No need to hate them, let'S keep politics and their damn party seperate from the culture and history. Let's keep 70 years of the party's history and 5 thousand years of history of ancient china two separate things, please. Else you would need to throw a Chuang Tse or Lao Tse, a Hui Neng or huang Po into the same pot with barbars like Mao Tse Tung - and that would be a great loss, really.

I hope that this years Olympia is a complete disaster, biggest in the history of the Olympics.
Agreed.

I hope to see wide spread political turmoil in China,
totally unrealistic. You do not seem to see that the vast majority of Chinese still support the way there country is functioning, and supoport the party - even if eventually wishing for some reforms here, some more livberties there. All in all, the demonstratoing students on the Square of Heavenly Peace were NOT representative for the Chinese population all together.

Possible? Maybe. Am I talking complete crap? Quite possibly. I just get very angry when a country which has so much blood on its hands can be so prosperous. :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn: :damn:
Has not been any different with any other of the great empires of the past. and in historical comparison, china may often have ruled with strong fist to it's inside, but comopared to other empires, it acted astoundingly peaceful and unagressive concerning it'S outside. In fact it rested so much in itself, that it took this status for granted and become almost defenseless, which was to be seen during the Mongole's storm, and again in the modern era when the Western powers arrived.

Don't let emotions blind you. Courage, reason and determination is good enough, like the Torrero shows. If you allow to decide by emotions, you do not decide, but get decided. In other words: you become the bull ending dead in the arena. ;)

[GlobalExplorer]

I wonder what happens if there is a bloodbath in Tibet.

Boycott the olympics. I am all for it.

[Skybird]

I wonder what happens if there is a bloodbath in Tibet.

It is to be assumed that that is in the making. currently they systemtically try to get rid of any foreign eyes, visitors, joiurnalists, and seal of the country. what will happen if they are successful in that, I will not imagine.

The Dalai Lama, against his usual habits, has become very loud and clear in words by his usual standards, talking openly of genocide taking place.

If that becomes grim reality, shame on any nation sending its athletes there. It's already a shame right now. Must it really end like with the the British soccer team 1938: giving Hitler the Hitler-greeting with straight right arms when standing in the Berlin stadium? I did not know this detail until i saw a photograph from back then, yesterday.

[goldorak]

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.


Kind of difficult when China is the one of the most important trading partners of the US of A and most of the american debt is in chinese hands.
The US of A should lead the world by example, but it is easier to start a war in the middle east for bogus reasons that to say f**k off to China.
Its all about money and real politic.

Europe should just as well have boycotted the games. :down:

[Steel_Tomb]

Its just the case that they can't take them on militarily, not very easy to do it diplomaticly. The UN would have to pass sanctions on China or something, but on what??? Oil imports?

[Skybird]

Latest reports now indicate "hundreds of dead". Additional major forces get shifted to Tibet, it seems an example is to be executed and Peking is determned to shatter the rebellion at all cost and turn it into a graveyard'S silence, so that the Olympics will run "peacefully". that is good, since it makes it easier for wetsern governments not to think about the Olymics. The brighter the shine, the more comfortable the mind.

Spit.

Poor dogs who live down there.

[peterloo]

I used to stay away from subsim, not because of you guys, but due to the lack of my time in playing subsims (I can't stand myself playing 2 hours of games only to finish a war patrol) as my public examination is approaching

If you still remember me, I am probably quite unique here ~ owning the identity of Chinese in such a Westeners oriented forum (in a Westeners oriented game), and if you do remember me, I made quite a strong argument here defending the whole Chinese that, the poisonous toy stuff is originated from your entrepreneurs, those who does nothing except gaining by repeated exploitation of cheap labour. I can assure you that, why they own their own yacht, their own island, and so on, is because they mistreated the developing countries.

I come back today, is because I know that someone has opened such a topic here. Now, may I get the chance to make the whole stuff clear

Undoubtedly, the problem originates from different races living in China. Having more than 50 races mixing together in this piece of land, it usually catalyzes problems.

Now, the problem emerges, first by a demostration, then to a crisis. As all of you know, Han people are beaten to death and have their shops looted and set alight. It is than clear that, no matter what the reaction of PRC government is, those responsible for this, is the monks who "avocates" and starts the flaming.

Now, Tibet is turned to chaos, by the act of the mob (Zhang people). If you were the government official, you would definite try to stop them. Remember IRA, please. The first reaction is that the police come. But the people there arn't afraid of the police and they even gang up on police and set fires on police cars. So, more police comes and armored cars started driving into the city. IMAGINE if the armored cars didn't come, what would have happened? Probably the mob has seized the city and more innocent lives are perished.

One might wonder if Chinese government employed brute force and unhuman ways to treat the protestors. But wait, the demostraters has already turned into a group of terrorists, killing innocent people. I'm afraid I've to recall the 911 incident. The al-Queda group attacked and killed the innocents. The USA, the so called promoter of peace and human rights, attacked Iraq, and the operation, not only unable to uproot the terrorist groups, indicated by the terrorist activities in the previous years, but also killed the innocent civilians. Furthermore, brute force and maltreatment of prisoner of war also exists. Remember Black water company which kills civilians? Remember the brutal and barbaric waterboarding interrogating means? Remember those indecent, naked photoes of POW taken in those POW camps? That USA does not offer basic human rights is than proved crystal clear.

Some Korean farmers who are opposing globalization protests when WTO has their meeting. Based on my knowledge, the Korean farmers are armed and create havok in the city. They are retaliated by the use of tear gas and pepper spray, and sometimes, more harsh stuff.

I'm not saying that every American is that barbaric, but unfortunately, some of them are not solving problems in a proper way. While they are blaming others, they never review their mistakes made. This pathepatic character of some Americans, unfortunately, damages the dignity of American and the human race.

In Chinese, USA means beautiful country. However, I don't find some of the people beautiful.

This is what USA has done in retaliation to 911 attack. Now, isn't the act of Chinese government acceptable? At least, they don't kill the innocents in the attempt to breakdown the Zhang mobs?

Some might suggest boycotting the Olympic games. Now, did we boycott the Sydney Olympic games despite their participation in the unjustice Iraq war? It is totally unfair for any government to bar their atheletes from joining Olympic simply based on political issues. I'm sure that you guys know the 1936 Berlin Olympic was exploited by Hitler in his attempt to show Aryan superiority. The 1980 and 1984 Olympic games, held in USSR and USA respectively, was boycotted, due to the Cold War. DO YOU REALLY WANNA SEE A SECOND COLD WAR??? Mutual understanding is always vital amid the occasionally crisis

Finally, some of you suggested USA to start their primary and secondary production to henge against the Chinese expansion. I can almost guarantee you that this won't work. Would you accept an job offer with monthly salary $200 so that your product can compete with ours? LOL Undoubtedly you wouldn't. In addition, our government owns quite a lot of USA bonds. If we sell all of them, I'm sure the USA dollar would further depreciates and USA forced into a recession. I don't think HK will be affected. By the time this happens, we might have pegged with RMB. But I'm sure USD will never be pegged with RMB, by political reasons. This is NOT a threat, but a friendly reminder ~ this is how the world leaders play the game, seriously. If one do gain by making friend with another, these two guys become close friends, vice versa. I can also guarantee that, if the gain from collaborating with Chinese is great enough, USA will abondon Taiwan, and let us unite.

Don't take what I say as threats. They are just facts. Today my essay is focused on USA, but this also applies to almost every Westen country. REMEMBER, flaming and blaming Chinese has got no human helps nothing. De facto, you are already affected by the mass media ~ remember the Mantel apologising September last year? What they say is completely unjust to Chinese. Again, if you have any problems, feel free to post here. I love arguing with others and debating. I'm sure we'll learn more, with debating.

I HATE PEOPLE USING FOUL WORDS DESCRIBING CHINESE JUST BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEM OF MINORITY. BEING RACIST HERE WILL LEAD TO YOUR BANNING, GUARANTEED.

[peterloo]

Latest reports now indicate "hundreds of dead". Additional major forces get shifted to Tibet, it seems an example is to be executed and Peking is determned to shatter the rebellion at all cost and turn it into a graveyard'S silence, so that the Olympics will run "peacefully". that is good, since it makes it easier for wetsern governments not to think about the Olymics. The brighter the shine, the more comfortable the mind.

Spit.

Poor dogs who live down there.
I'm sure the USA killed more Iraqis then us

Let's draw your "estimation" parallel to that of the Chinese

................2003 invasion of Iraq .................2008 Tibet Crisis
Objective: Undermine terrorist group .............Eliminate mobs
...............(groups rebelling USA) ...............(groups rebelling Chinese government)
Fatality of
innocents: ....>=3000* ..............................>=100 (by your data)

* source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

(edited since the table isn't showing properly)

Who is more bloody? You judge.

[goldorak]

USA for all its failings is a democracy, China is a totalitarian state.
Its a subtle difference but a difference nonetheless.
No discussion of China can ignore this basic fact.

[peterloo]

Allright so we're all blinded by media lies, actually the good and kind chinese police and military are simply defending themselves against blood thirsty tibetans terrorist ?
And since the war in Iraq killed thousands of iraqis innocent, the Chinese are actually kind and fair guys with only hundreds of tibetans killed.
Since when stupidity from A justifies stupidity from B ? You gotta be kidding.

Good to hear that your point of view isn't affected by the mass media

For anyone who wanna reply, please kindly take some time in reading my post (sorry, a bit long)

If you disagree with me, please kindly tell me why so that we can have a discussion. A discussion only emerges when a consenus is yet to be reached

[Skybird]

Undoubtedly, the problem originates from different races living in China. Having more than 50 races mixing together in this piece of land, it usually catalyzes problems.

No, the problem originates from a country brutally occupying another msall, defenseless place, killing one sixth of it's population in the past decades, denying the genocide but claiming the hiostorical right to do so.

Now, the problem emerges, first by a demostration, then to a crisis. As all of you know, Han people are beaten to death and have their shops looted and set alight. It is than clear that, no matter what the reaction of PRC government is, those responsible for this, is the monks who "avocates" and starts the flaming.

Yes, it is the monks, and they are thirsty for blood and kill innocent Hanc chinese by first sight that live on their land and try to breed out the native locals. you are pretty much in line with the party propaganda here. What you do not say is that here in the West, at least in Germany, we see as many reprots, ntiially even more, that show peaceful protesters and slow moving demosntrations against the chinese occupation, wehre no violence as to be seen, until Chinese police and troops appeard and later opened fire.

Now, Tibet is turned to chaos, by the act of the mob (Zhang people). If you were the government official, you would definite try to stop them. Remember IRA, please.
We would try that if we were the legal government of that place - or mass-murdering tyrants who subjugated the place and people by force and genocide. Fact is, we are neither the one nor the other, but the Chiense givernment is the latter.

The first reaction is that the police come. But the people there arn't afraid of the police and they even gang up on police and set fires on police cars. So, more police comes and armored cars started driving into the city. IMAGINE if the armored cars didn't come, what would have happened? Probably the mob has seized the city and more innocent lives are perished.

It is cynic that you mention innocent lifes in defense of the Chinese government

One might wonder if Chinese government employed brute force and unhuman ways to treat the protestors. But wait, the demostraters has already turned into a group of terrorists, killing innocent people. I'm afraid I've to recall the 911 incident. The al-Queda group attacked and killed the innocents. The USA, the (...)

Okay, I cut it short here, becasue it becomes riodiculous. Thanks for your propaganda stunt in defense of the chinese dictatorship, I'll recommend you for a promotion inside the party'S hierarchy.


I HATE PEOPLE USING FOUL WORDS DESCRIBING CHINESE JUST BECAUSE OF THE PROBLEM OF MINORITY. BEING RACIST HERE WILL LEAD TO YOUR BANNING, GUARANTEED.

And I hate people - no matter if Chinese or Westerners - defending genocide, landtaking by the act of war, state terrorism, subjugating native cultures, and minimizing one million dead and tortured and ongoing suffering of the native population as "problem of minority", and calling resistance to this ongoing injustice "terrorism" - and then even having the nerve to tell everybody not accepting this disgrace in word and deed to be "racists". I cannot imagine that anybody really missed you here.

Concerning how to handle the forum, leave it to Neal. It's fair to say he is expert in that and does not need your advise.

And if you want to call me a racist again - no, I do not have a problem with Chinese people in general, by far not. But I have a problem with guys like you calling blood a fresh and clean water from a mountain spring, so to speak. If I should recommend you one thing, than this: stop limitjng yourself to the official party'S view of things, and use the globally available media to educate your views to a wider, a much wider perception. This will give you better information - that'S why the chinese government is hunting down witnesses by chance and especially foreign reporters in Tibet currently. It is for making sure people agree all along with their propaganda - like you.

[peterloo]

Latest reports now indicate "hundreds of dead". Additional major forces get shifted to Tibet, it seems an example is to be executed and Peking is determned to shatter the rebellion at all cost and turn it into a graveyard'S silence, so that the Olympics will run "peacefully". that is good, since it makes it easier for wetsern governments not to think about the Olymics. The brighter the shine, the more comfortable the mind.

Spit.

Poor dogs who live down there.

Who say you arn't racist? Who is the dog here? I would be grateful to see a dog typing the keyboard in the zoo

Well, that might be just a typo or a slip of tougue. In this case, I forgive you. But, would you mind telling me what is the problem of drawing Iraq war parallel to the crackdown of Tibetan terrorist groups? Have I committed any logical errors which makes it ridiculous? If so, please kindly point that out so that I can rectify that.

Also, I'd like to point out that, USA didn't respect human rights. They made mistakes. But the PRC government at least respected others. They openly said that they would impose lessor punishments if anyone surrenders. Isn't that a better treatment of human rights?

I wanna say that, IF YOUR GOVERNMENT DON'T RESPECT OTHERS, SHE DON'T HAVE RIGHTS TO BLAME OTHERS ON THE SAME ISSUE

Thanks for your help in pointing out my mistakes made in advance!

[peterloo]

Perhaps all of our points of view are too extreme. Either PRO or CON, and I later regret what I've done. Instead of creating a good discussion atomsphere, I created a hostile environment.

I would like to first apologise to everyone here, since I didn't create an environment nice here. YET, I believe, the discussion would be better if our point of view is "grey" instead of "black" or "white" pose that we take

Finally, I would like to recommend Skybird to put the FOR and AGAINST point of view in his topic so that everyone can have a full view of the event and make a proper judgement.

I have to say sorry since I was being horribly hostile to Skybird and others here in the previous hour. I hope we can correct ourselves and gain a better view of the event.

Someone might say that I'm defending the PRC government, but I would like to say that, if everyone is going mad against PRC, there would be no discussion ~ like in a debate competition, there is a team going FOR and another going AGAINST. Nothing is absolutely right or wrong

Thanks. I hope my act can create a better environment here. Hope that we can gain mutual understanding via putting ourselves into each others' shoes. Thanks again!

[Steel_Tomb]

Latest reports now indicate "hundreds of dead". Additional major forces get shifted to Tibet, it seems an example is to be executed and Peking is determned to shatter the rebellion at all cost and turn it into a graveyard'S silence, so that the Olympics will run "peacefully". that is good, since it makes it easier for wetsern governments not to think about the Olymics. The brighter the shine, the more comfortable the mind.

Spit.

Poor dogs who live down there.

Who say you arn't racist? Who is the dog here? I would be grateful to see a dog typing the keyboard in the zoo

Well, that might be just a typo or a slip of tougue. In this case, I forgive you. But, would you mind telling me what is the problem of drawing Iraq war parallel to the crackdown of Tibetan terrorist groups? Have I committed any logical errors which makes it ridiculous? If so, please kindly point that out so that I can rectify that.

Also, I'd like to point out that, USA didn't respect human rights. They made mistakes. But the PRC government at least respected others. They openly said that they would impose lessor punishments if anyone surrenders. Isn't that a better treatment of human rights?

I wanna say that, IF YOUR GOVERNMENT DON'T RESPECT OTHERS, SHE DON'T HAVE RIGHTS TO BLAME OTHERS ON THE SAME ISSUE

Thanks for your help in pointing out my mistakes made in advance!

I think he was speaking metaphoricly, I highly doubt Skybird meant any offence to the people of Tibet, on the contrary I think he supports them more than you ever will.

Like I said previously, I'm no expert in foreign affairs, especially China. However you have to admit, the dictatorship in China has a history of heavy handedness with protestors. Need I remind you of the events that took place in Tienamen (sp?) square, the events that took place there was nothing short of a genocide/war crime/barbaric use of force. The fact that anyone who says anything "nasty" to the Chinese Government is branded "a barbaric terrorist killing innocent civilians yada yada yada" is just pathetic, please tell me you don't believe all the crap the state propaganda machine churns out? As Skybird said, I suggest you take a wider view of the world around you. Read material other than the crap sent to you by you glorious government :nope:. Like us, take what you read in the newspaper with a pinch of salt.

By the way, when you say about "lesser punishments" I guess your talking about been beaten to a pulp and sent away to a prison never to be seen again instead of been shot on the spot right? :down:

Edit: sorry if I seem like I'm directing my anger at your, but your government has so much blood on its hands its unbelievable, yet they get away with (literally) murder. It has to STOP.

[peterloo]

of course I knew what happened in June 1989. It was a sad event with government trying to stop those who protest peacefully

However, this problem is something different, I think. The Chinese government nearly got a 911 style terrorist attack as allegated Zhang terrorists tried to smuggle explosives onboard a plane, hoping to create a plane crash just few days before the protest. Fortunately, the event got under control before it was too late

Now, the protest of the same group of people clearly indicates that there is probably links between these two events, and the first event unfortunately amplifies the ferocity of the second event

the news said more than 100 dead. However, they didn't say how much of them are innocent Zhang people and how much are terrorist (who deserves getting killed like the al-Queda counterparts, of course) who took part in the event. It would be a pivotal point in our discussion

[Steel_Tomb]

of course I knew what happened in June 1989. It was a sad event with government trying to stop those who protest peacefully

However, this problem is something different, I think. The Chinese government nearly got a 911 style terrorist attack as allegated Zhang terrorists tried to smuggle explosives onboard a plane, hoping to create a plane crash just few days before the protest. Fortunately, the event got under control before it was too late

Now, the protest of the same group of people clearly indicates that there is probably links between these two events, and the first event unfortunately amplifies the ferocity of the second event

the news said more than 100 dead. However, they didn't say how much of them are innocent Zhang people and how much are terrorist (who deserves getting killed like the al-Queda counterparts, of course) who took part in the event. It would be a pivotal point in our discussion

Now I'm not supporting terrorist actions here, but hear me out.

Take the case of Chechnya, the population has been decimated by a war against the Russians, they've been pushed into a corner, and have been treated so brutally the only way forward is force. I mean, why walk like lambs to the slaughter when the lambs can carry guns? The population in Tibet has been pushed into a corner by years of Chinese occupation and brutality, they have nothing else to loose. So your surprised suddenly when the "nasty terrorists" start planning covert attacks? Its all they've got left. If the Chinese government, like the Russians weren't so heavy handed and used such disproportionate use of force you may well not have this problem. Perhaps you may even be living in a peaceful coexistence with the Tibetan people? I know for a fact, if someone came into my country and started killing the population like has happened in these two hotspots, I would certainly be doing the same thing. When you have nothing to live for, people are capable of terrible things.

[peterloo]

Mmmm... Perhaps I wasn't aware of the history and also, I am quite young, I don't know much about the events in the past

I guess we are starting to reach a consensus

Agreed. I must admit that Chinese imposes strict control on mainland like censoring or speech control. The leaders are solving the problems, but the local officials (who are corrupt) neglected the orders.

And we hate admitting our mistakes. We usually let the event fades out as time passes rather than publicly apologising.

For my global view of events, I think I'm adaquate as I do read Times and other magazines which usually hold a neutral point of view. But I have to apologise that my history knowledge is still lacking, so I can't draw a proper conclusion by comparison of events.

I guess Skybird and you arn't going wrong with the majority of Chinese. We are just going mad with the way the Chinese government solves it.

[Frau_Phillips]

I am not well versed enough in Chinese or Tibetan politics to be able to speak with any authority on the subject, but I'm fairly sure all my sympathy is being thrown with the Tibetans. I heard they had violent riots and killed some innocent Chinese people living there, which is abhorrent and should not be excused. But overall I think Tibet ought to be able to declare indepence, and China's attempts to keep the rest of the world in the dark about it only makes it worse.

I do know that China has given Omar Al-Bashir financial and diplomatic support. Al-Bashir is responsible for the proxy militias in Darfur, and everything they have been doing to the people there. China's support of the Sudanese government despite the genocide they have been carrying out in the region has been a sore point since the games were awarded to China.

Adding to THAT:

The new toilet facilities built in the Beijing stadiums can no longer be used by regular Chinese citizens living or working in the area. Concerns have been raised by Communist party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China) officials that the hygiene issues of local citizens would affect the Beijing Olympic image.[97] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics#_note-Singtao07-22-07) There is now a penalty of 100 to 500 yuan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renminbi) ($10 USD to $50 USD) imposed on any Chinese locals caught using the bathrooms.[97] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics#_note-Singtao07-22-07)

That's from Wikipedia.

God help me if any Olympic event is on in my home this year.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

God help me if any Olympic event is on in my home this year.

....:-?:oops:;):88):arrgh!:

[Skybird]

Who say you arn't racist? Who is the dog here? I would be grateful to see a dog typing the keyboard in the zoo.
I referred to those poor people being born and living in Tibet who now will become victim again of chinese retaliation. Note that you government already has murdered over one million tibetans since the beginning of the occupation. I also accuse your government of gencoide which in its defintion incloudes both the killing of an ethnic group and the attempt to destroy is culture, and the survivabiliy of oif this group and thos culture in the future. I accuse your government of using Chinese settling as a tool of landtaking and further brushing over the fact the Tibet already has a population living there, legally: the Tibetans. I accuse your government of state-terrorism against the tibetan culture, I accuse it of lying over the grim reality.

the cultural revolution in china and the grab for power by Mao Tse Tung costed the lives of at least 7 million Chinese, and brought much of china's shining past into discredit. strange that I as a european must say in defense of china that this crime of Mao Tse Tung is not to be forgiven. In Ruanda, China armed the Tusti (beside firareems with toins and tons of machettes made in China) and by that actively engaged and helped in the genocide against the Tutsi, that costed 75% of the Tutsi their lives and killed 800.000 to 1 million people. In Darfur, China financially supports and supplies weapons to the Dschadschawid and the sudanese central government, that way agin bathing it's hands in blood: so far around half a million people have been massacred by these Muslim militias, and 2.5 miullion people have been driven away, often facing a fate of slow death and starvation in sokme good forsaken camps in the desert. Compar5ed to these barbaric crimes, the massacre on the suqre in Peking is almost children's play with "just" one thousand people getting shot or tanks rolling over them. While the historical, ancient china was remarkably pacifistic to the outside of its borders and showed only small or no ambitions for conquest, in fact sometimes became the victim of conquest (but often had a brutal legislation with barbaric penalties inside to secure the power of the emperor and the ruling of the ministres and bureaucrats), this tradition of pacifism somewhat changed after the war with Japan and Mao Tse Tung and the cultural revolution. Assisting in or carrying out massacres and genocides has become integrated part of Chinese politics. and that turn towards barbarism is a shame for a history as rich and long as that of China.

Amnd that is why I accuse you of giving all these inhumane crimes - at leats regarding Tibet - a solid gloss-over to make it appear that China is the victim here - where in fact it is the perpetrator. I compare it to the tatcic of the Nazis in my own country, who justified the violence against the Jews by accusing them to be traitors of the state and infiltrating society with evil ambitions, that way the victims were turned into the perpetrators, and the Nazis werde the victims. Or the attack on Poland, a German first strike aggression - they had staged a faked border incident with the Polish border patrols, put some unhappy prisoners into Polish unoforms and shot them on the German side if the boarder: that was the evidence for the Polish aggression. Next thing Hitler said was "since today we shoot back".

The violence against chinese people in Tibet would not be there if you would not have subjugated and occupied it. The Tibetans did not want you. And you have no damn right whatever to make yourself their masters. Don'T tell me some historic nonsens. I do not accept Germany demanding back the Holy Roman Empire of Gemran Naztion, or the Italians demanding territories macthcing the borders of Rome. Or the Spanish demanding southern America. Or Mexiko wnating back Texas. Or Russia demanding Alaska. And so China has no legal claims to occupy Tibet. Fact is, not a single chinese in the 19-fifties had any just claim to make regarding Tibet, and whatever there was in history between both regions, not a single man lived anymore telling of those times. So what business has china to do in Tibet? Of the living generations, no chinese has any business in Tibet, nobody. The only answer is this: natural ressources, andnthat is all, and justifies the killing of over one million tibetans so far, and torturing men and women and monks and destriyng a spiritual culture THAT IS AMONGST THE MOST PEACEFUL IN THE WORLD - at leats until Pekind started to try infiltrating the spiritual branches from within by messing around with the tradtion of succession of the leasding heads of the lineages, by that causing conflict and aggression inside these lineages.

Well, that might be just a typo or a slip of tougue. In this case, I forgive you.

You have nothing to forgive. You have to apologize for yourself for having defendedn genocide and assassination of a foreign culture that does not want to be destroyed by China.

But, would you mind telling me what is the problem of drawing Iraq war parallel to the crackdown of Tibetan terrorist groups?
There is no comparison possible. It simply does not compare. Nor is the one a possible justification for the other. Note that I am a high-profiled critic of the Iraq war and American foreign policies in general in this forum. Nobody here would accuse me of trying to justify the Iraq war. But Iraq and Tibet simply do not compare, in no way. And the topic I started was about tibet anyway, and a possible boycott of the Olympics. The Chinese attack on Tibet and the occupation did not starts as a fight against terorrims. It was aggression in it's purest form. And it was carried out in a way that in folliwng years costed the life of every sixth Tibetan living.

Still wondering why Tibetan civilians hate you Chinese so much...?

Also, I'd like to point out that, USA didn't respect human rights. They made mistakes. But the PRC government at least respected others.
So what? that others do evil doesn't make your own deeds less evil. I have occasionally attacked america-caused injustices and crimes. If china respects such evil-doing governments, it is not a compliment for china. I do not respect such a goivernment, wether it be america or china. In fact, I attack both. Hell, I even attack the stupidity of the EU, where I live.

They openly said that they would impose lessor punishments if anyone surrenders. Isn't that a better treatment of human rights?
"Lesser punishement" for demandign freedom of end of occupation? Lesser punishement when no longer demanding what legally is theirs anyway? And what does this mean: lesser punishement? "Lifelong prison" instead of an execution? 14 instead of twenty years prison camp for demanding freedom for Tibet and tibetan people? the Tibetans want nothing from you people, and from china. In fact they want so little from you that they want you to leave and and leave the Tibetans all alone. Tibet did not attack china. China rolled over Tibet, unprovoked.

I wanna say that, IF YOUR GOVERNMENT DON'T RESPECT OTHERS, SHE DON'T HAVE RIGHTS TO BLAME OTHERS ON THE SAME ISSUE

Hu...? Lost in grammar and translation, I fear.

Perhaps all of our points of view are too extreme. Either PRO or CON, and I later regret what I've done. Instead of creating a good discussion atomsphere, I created a hostile environment.
You reap like you sow. I have no problem with you because you are a chinese. you might have understood by now that I know some minor things about China, and by far do not see it all black and white. but you defended massmurder and genocide, and tried to paint lying nice pictures about the chinese crimes in tibet in the past decades. I would have the same problem with a german Nazi telling me the holocaust did not happen, no six million Jews got killed, and those who died, were terrorists. This is behavior of the kind that makes me very angry indeed . And yes - I take it personally - VERY personally. also, while I like to see things oin contexts, I hate relativizing things until fictional contexts are constructed that before did not exist in reality - another thing I read in your postings.

Perhaps all of our points of view are too extreme. Either PRO or CON, and I later regret what I've done. Instead of creating a good discussion atomsphere, I created a hostile environment.

Hu? not sure i understand you. I HAVE said
quzite clearly that I see olympics as a pöoltical event, and that I want them to be boycotted, and that sportsmen and -women should think twice before willing to become abused for Chinese propaganda shows, and giving up free speech in contracts with their sports federations. I also said in past postings over the years where I see the wrong and correct vies of the West regarding China, and the other way around.

It's all there, having grown over the past seven years in this forum. and most of it has nothing to do with Tjbet. tibet is not a thing that is complicated. There is a crime of china against the Tibnetans, it killed over a million people, and pekings tells coverup-stories about it. That'S all, and it is pretty simple this time, really. It's not a context-sienstiive judgement. It is wrong what China is doing, it was wrong back then, and it remains to be wrong in the future.

Someone might say that I'm defending the PRC government, but I would like to say that, if everyone is going mad against PRC, there would be no discussion ~ like in a debate competition, there is a team going FOR and another going AGAINST. Nothing is absolutely right or wrong
Not wanting to go into the characteristics of Western and asian philosphival thiknking here, but i agree in so far as I do not lecture china about becoming a "demicracy" in western understanding. Like inrussia, I hardly can imagine it would work. It is an issue you Chines epeople have to solve internally. but sometimes you are stepping over the red line on the ground, and Tibet is one of these occasions. I see it in no way different than the evil things Stalin and Hitler did.

Thanks. I hope my act can create a better environment here. Hope that we can gain mutual understanding via putting ourselves into each others' shoes. Thanks again!While that may be possible with a lot of things, with some it isn't. The issue this thread is about, is one of the latter.

just curious, not meaning any offense: how old are you, where do you live, and what are you doing?

[Skybird]

Just noted that my spelling is terrible this time, even for my inferior standards. It's not that I do not know it better - I just type too damn fast, and I am too lazy to correct it... In fact I type faster than most scretaries do with ten fingers.

It's just that this speed has it's price.:roll:

[Skybird]

German press on the pro and contra of boycott:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-541924,00.html

Tibet - China's Gaza strip:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-541976,00.html

[Steel_Tomb]

Wow Skybird, thats quite a post you got there. I agree 100% with you. There are lines, and China has crossed them time and time again. I pray that the international community will stand firm against Chinese foreign policy this time.

[Stealth Hunter]

A new Olympic Event.... Dodgeing Bullets.:huh:

OH MY GOD! Heindrich Schmutz has just taken a bullet to the eye! That's really gonna pull him down this year, eh Dan?

Yes it is, Rob. Up next is the extreme edition of Russian Roulette. Six players, and six bullets. Lets find out who wins when we come back after these messages.

[peterloo]

Good post skybrid. I couldn't agree more. The more I write, the more weakness I reveal, the less concrete my argument becomes

After reading todays newspaper, I learnt the news that, the Hong Kong reporters and other reporters have been expelled from Tibet with their videos containing memory card confisicated, and I'm sorry to say that, a June 4 style surpression gonna occur.

Perhaps on the previous few days, what I got is just a fragment of informations. That I could not made a proper judgement is my mistake. Some officials in China didn't handle this crisis properly.

I now agree with what you see. It would be better if Tibet could be go independence or getting under "one country two systems" rule, letting them rule themselves. I believe, this can reduce the blood shed there. Still, I think that Olympic should be a sports event and not politicalized.

Finally, congratz on your strong argument. You must be a good debate player, with the ability to expose the logical errors of others, and expose it in front of others, naked

p.s. I am not denying history. I still, know what happens in June 4 or cultual revolution by reading wikipedia topics and from my teacher.

p.s.s. I am 17, so my history knowledge (especially on those which were deliberately censored) is relatively weak. I am living in HK, and I am having my exams these days. So, I must apologise for not using my brain to think carefully before I post here

[Skybird]

:up: Admitting that one was wrong so freely, takes some good will and spine, thus it tells something about the person. Maybe you were "just" too easy-minded where I thought you were a hardcore follower of the party - but with that impression i may have been wrong myself about you, too.

The object of the controversy about a former opinion is removed, so okay - no hard feelings then. ;)

[Skybird]

The athletes winning in Peking, will be in a very powerful political position, and that politicians look for the closeness to sports and successful winner, hardly is by random chance and by the individual politician's personal interest. Just imagine how bad Peking would look if winners of medals would nevertheless speak out freely in interviews or during the ceremonies! Just imagine winner would give back their medals in huge numbers, or would refuse them during ceremonies! It should not be, but it is a fact that today sports and politics go hand in hand. Athletes often are called "ambassadors"; of a nation. There are "national teams". Why this if politics - and sometimes nationalism - had nothing to do with it? just imagine some of the sport events and sport duels between the USSR and the USA during the cold war: hockey, for example. Sports cannot escape to be political these days - and many athletes, I fear, live in a both naive and opportunistic dreamworld were they think they could practise their sports unpolitical. That is comfortable and easy, and avoids facing tough questions, and does not force anybody to question his engagement - but nevertheless it is unrealistic, and in this meaning: wrong.

[peterloo]

Good to see consenus reached.

Now, every of us knows that there is something going wrong with the PRC government when they try to crackdown this group. Being a Chinese, I don't wanna see my people fighting each other. The government might have over-reacted.

The blockage of information also implies, something REALLY bad is going to happen

p.s. I am not a hardcore follower of the PRC government. I do criticize them, especially in some of their policies (like the medical problems ~ let say, the doctors will administrate a large amount of medicine to cure the slightest disease, since the more medicine they sell, the more they gain. They will administrate glucose supplements when you get a flu, LOL)

[peterloo]

The athletes winning in Peking, will be in a very powerful political position, and that politicians look for the closeness to sports and successful winner, hardly is by random chance and by the individual politician's personal interest. Just imagine how bad Peking would look if winners of medals would nevertheless speak out freely in interviews or during the ceremonies! Just imagine winner would give back their medals in huge numbers, or would refuse them during ceremonies! It should not be, but it is a fact that today sports and politics go hand in hand. Athletes often are called "ambassadors" of a nation. there "national" teams. Why this if politics - and sometimes nationalism - had nothing to do with it? just imagine some of the sport events and sport duels between the USSR and the USA during the cold war: hockey, for example. Sports cannot escape to be political these days - and many athletes, I fear, live in a both naive and opportunistic dreamworld were they think they could practise their sports unpolitical. That is uncomfortable, and avoids facing tough questions, and does not force anybody to question his engagement - but nevertheless it is unrealistic, and in this meaning: wrong.

Certainly, it would be awesome if sport would not be politicalized, yet it was clear that Beijing would like to exploit this chance to show off, and try to improve the image of China among the foreigners.

In the past, we got Ping Pong Diplomacy, with Nixon sending the USA table tennis team to China in order to team up with China (to hedge against USSR). Knowing that, it quite inevitable that table tennis, or other sports, has a certain factor of political issue embedded within

However, this backfired, when the Tibet crisis comes.

Besides the political problem, I would also like to highlight the problem of the athletes. When they were young, lots of them went training. As time passes, the best of the best will go to the national team while those with relatively less impressive results will be abondoned. They wasted their whole childhood in training, only to realise that they could gain nothing in return. This, compounded by the lack of government assisstance, is going to be another highlight in China.

[Steel_Tomb]

China has admitted using lethal force against protestors, at least four have been wounded. Knowing the Chinese regime this means that about 5 have been killed at least. Hate to think what else has happened over there. Wonder if they've ever heard of tasers or rubber bullets? If its taken nearly a week for this information to come to light, what other atrocities are being carried out as we speak? :nope:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080320/tpl-uk-china-tibet-43a8d4f.html

[STEED]

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

I'm going to buy you a drink for that comment. :up:

[Trex]

A new Olympic Event.... Dodgeing Bullets.:huh:

Javelin Receiving?

[kiwi_2005]

Free Trade with China will make govenments pretend nothing is wrong. Our Prime Minister and her collegues were big supporters of the Tibetians this was before they became Government. Now they dont want to know about the Tibetian problem cause of free trade:hmm:

[Trex]

WRT bringing manufacturing capability back to the Western world. All it would take is for The Consumer to start asking, “Have you the same thing made in the USA? ("Vous avez- quelque chose faite en France?" "Hve εσείς το ίδιο πράγμα που κατασκευάζεται στην Ελλάδα?” “Habben Sie die gleiche Sache hergestellt in Deutschland?”) It all hinges on profit. If the majority of people objected enough to supporting Chinese practices to stop buying things made in China, the corporate world would find another place to have things made. Would it were that easy, of course. The vast majority of people will prefer to pay a dollar less and hang the consequences.

[peterloo]

Free trade, and not willing to hurt China in these difficult days, of course, is one of the best cards that Chinese own in her inventory. Nobody wants China plays it by putting a embargo in his export or import, right?

If China do play such a card, the effect on the factories and workers its huge. If thousands of workers are laid off, the government could do nothing except reversing its decision, since the pressure exerted will be extraordinary huge.

About the lethal force issue. Despite my Chinese identity I don't support or avocate the usage of brute force against the riot in any way. Not only the problem is not properly settled but the image of China is also hurt. What China should do, is to take a step back, and start negotiating with those Tibetans now.

The same rules applies to Tibetans, they should also take a step back and start negotiation now. It is disguisting to see people of the same race fighting each other, as it always represents a bad omen, let say, the communists and nationalists battled in the 1920s and 1930s. That paved a way to Japanese agression, since Jiang is unwilling to fight the Japanese unless the communist is all wiped out.

The problem is that, all this is legal in mainland China. Since the country is called "people's republic of China", if the government don't consider the preparators and the executors of the "rebellion" as people, the are not protected by law. In the June 4 incident, the government didn't consider the protesters as people, so they can attack them using tanks and guns.

[peterloo]

China and the worlds reaction to it has got to be one of the most hypocritical relationships on the planet.

Case in point, watch how news organisations and politicians villify and criticise Russia at almost every turn but you hear no such criticisms of China. Oh some mild condemnation how they are concerned at China#s treatment of disidents and hope they change their ways but nothing like what Russia gets.

So we should boycott the Olympics and tell China to f**k off. But hey no world leader has the guts.

Hypocritical? Yes, absolutely agree. Political stuff, is probably the most hypocritical stuff in the world. Lies, betrayal, and deception is all common in the politics. Pathetic to say that, yet the a large proportion of world leaders are hypocrites.

[Dmitry Markov]

For me all this situation looks like a foreign intelligence's work: look, less of all China needs all this riots now. In recent years China and Dalai-Lama both had more calm rithorics, China have built a unique highland railway to Lhasa, they've made restoration of Potala, they've spent a lot of money into infrastructure of region increasing life's level of Zhang as well (which they didn't couple of decades earlier). But with increasing of infrastructure a lot of foreign "humanitarian" organisations appeared and opened their offices in Tibet. And now just before the greatest celebration which is object of national pride some gang of not very cool-minded persons starts to ruin all this without ANY trigger reason. This is VERY important - because all social disorders with internal reason usually start after some trigger happening this can be an order of authorities, ethnical crime or something. In case with Tibetans there was no such happening which in sum with growth of "humanitarian organisations" may point at foreign intelligences work. Somebody is interested in destabilizing China.
That's why I peronally won't boycott Olympics (though anyway I won't be able to visit them).
As for use of force - If I was the decision making person in the Police and if on my territories was a riot and if I had information that mob is killing civilians and burning their homes and properties - having in mind a task of preservation of my soldiers lives - I would give an order to use firearms. And being at soldier's place having such an order... That's why I don't serve - I hate such decisions and I undertand that they are inevitable in any country East, West or elsewhere... Remember France in 1968 or 1969 (don't remember exactly).
And that's another reason why I personally won't boycott Olympics.

Best Regards

[Trex]

For me all this situation looks like a foreign intelligence's work: look, less of all China needs all this riots now. In recent years China and Dalai-Lama both had more calm rithorics, China have built a unique highland railway to Lhasa, they've made restoration of Potala, they've spent a lot of money into infrastructure of region increasing life's level of Zhang as well (which they didn't couple of decades earlier). But with increasing of infrastructure a lot of foreign "humanitarian" organisations appeared and opened their offices in Tibet. And now just before the greatest celebration which is object of national pride some gang of not very cool-minded persons starts to ruin all this without ANY trigger reason. This is VERY important - because all social disorders with internal reason usually start after some trigger happening this can be an order of authorities, ethnical crime or something. In case with Tibetans there was no such happening which in sum with growth of "humanitarian organisations" may point at foreign intelligences work. Somebody is interested in destabilizing China.


Conspiracy theory writ large...

Why is it that we've let Occam's Razor get so damned dull?

[Trex]

Interesting spin on the issue - face.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1047118.html

[Skybird]

Interesting spin on the issue - face.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1047118.html

Yep. I am not into this face-importance myself, i am staying in the background, or confront what I see to be worth to confront directly, that is how i am. However I am quiet aware of this face-issue you see in Asia, and especially strong in Japan and China, and accept it to be a characteristic of their way of living and of their culture you don't find a workaround for - you have to deal with this characteristic of theirs, like it or not, no matter if you understand it, or think of it as an annoyance.

The Dalai Lama since years did not demand complete independence anymore. Some of the investement the chinese made in Tibet, served the country good. He also says that he wants to act not against the chinese, but wishes they would accept to work with him and both sides cooperate together with the goal of Chinese sovereignity but tibetan autonomy as a goal.

the hysteria some chinese officials show towards him, especially the chief of the Tibetan KP on my mind, unfortunately is beyond face-saving, i have to say, but is what I just said: hysteria. the Chinese allowed themselves to be carried away so far with their demonizing of the Dalai Lama, that they seem to have burned all bridges behind them indeed. So, face-saving yes or no, I nevertheless think it is their turn to make the first steps towards the tibetans. Right now they behave and lie and bite and growl like a dog with rabies. And a dog with rabies certainly shows no face worth to be saved, but earns it's owner more bad than good reactions from his surrounding environment. The damn thing is, that you do not have to deal so much with only chinese politicians, but with communist party-demagogues not defending china alone, but their party interests and their wish to keep the party in total and absolute power. If the Chinese government would have more in similiar with for example the Taiwanese government form, the Tibetan issue probbaly would have found a peaceful solution longer ago.