For bold u-boat skippers only!

[Freiwillige]

I watched battlefeilds last night the topic was the atlantic war. Anyway alot of the show 75% was about u-boats. Anyways It said that bold and experianced u-boat captains when forced to dive stayed near the surface because Asdic was unreliable near the surface. And they would stay near the convoy because the convoy masked there noise. A destroyer had to be close to pick a sub up near the surface and when they went over the sub it left a blank window for the sub to escape/ change course while the destroyer was blind. I remeber that in AOD I used to do the same thing and it worked well. Anybody use this tactic? It makes sense since asdic points downward. Also the show stated that the rougher the weather the worse asdic worked near the surface.

[GoldenRivet]

unfortunately i dont think that the ASW aspect of the sim is recreated to such a level so one could take advantage of such tactics.

i think the ASDIC works to a certain depth and then it just suddenly stops working.

ASDIC and sonar are complex beasts, and i think the trick to making a great subsim is to figure out a way to model or at least account for all of these little complexities.

I have often made attempts to hide under the convoy - but not for the reasons you have stated... but simply because the collision avoidance programming of the AI causes them to frequently break off attacks in order to avoid ramming other ships, even if the ship is in the process of sinking.

[Umfuld]

Yup. All those factors are represented in SH3. And it's a good idea to practice such tactics when the need calls for it.
I find the being close to the surface / harder to find rule to be a huge factor.

Though actually I'm not 100% about being harder for escorts to detect you if you are in tight with a convoy. I assume this is so in the game, just don't know it for a fact.


edit: laughed at seeing GoldenRivet's take is different from mine. Figured I'd say I don't claim to be an expert Freiwillige. And tend to defer to others here on such matters. Just giving my 2 cents. : /

[Freiwillige]

Upon further research it seems that once this was understood in the kreigsmarine it was a common and well known tactic. I would find it hard to beleive that the developers didnt take that into account when the developers of AOD did.

[GoldenRivet]

Im open to the idea of being wrong.

But i have found through my experience that the escorts have no notable difficulty in finding you with asdic at periscope depth or at shallow depths.

As far as im aware the game logic either figures your under the water or you're not. :hmm:
Also, in this same regard, i think that the game logic does not allow you to mask your noise using the noise of other ships.

hopefully someone who knows for sure can chime in.

[Graf Paper]

Whether any of these tactics work or not, regardless of how SH3 models ASDIC detection, there is one thing for sure you can count on...

No matter what you do, the enemy will eventually find you!:yep:

[GoldenRivet]

Whether any of these tactics work or not, regardless of how SH3 models ASDIC detection, there is one thing for sure you can count on...

No matter what you do, the enemy will eventually find you!:yep:

You're right about that one.

I wish i had a dollar for every campaign that ended with me sweating out a harrowing depth charge and hedgehog attack at 280+ meters.

I have pretty much decided that after mid 1943 i will no longer strike convoys, i will only stalk lone merchants. :nope:

[Umfuld]

My assumption was based mainly on the detailed illustration in the GWX manual regarding depth and detection. Figured they would know and wouldn't go through the trouble of detailing it like that if it wasn't a factor in the game.

But it was just an assumption.

[Brag]

I think that in the game staying close to the surface is suicide.

[Freiwillige]

I propose to test this theory. Periscope depth avoidance. I will try this many times throughout the week and post my results. any other testers want to volunteer their u-boat time?

[Umfuld]

After you've attacked you should dive. They will be actively looking and you don't want to be near the surface then.


When I trust it is approaching a convoy. You can have the lead escort pass 100m in front of you and I always feel a lot safer if I'm just under the waves then.
Again though, no idea if its really a factor.
Probably not. If not, I don't wanna know.

[Graf Paper]

If you look closely at the way GWX describes ASDIC, it's angled in such a way that your depth and distance from the escort affects whether you're detected or not.

The deeper you are, the further away you can be and still "duck under" the ASDIC's detection radius and angle. Shallow depths would necessitate being almost directly underneath the escort to avoid detection.

Depth is your friend. It gives you more room to fake out the escorts and also to avoid depth charges as they drop.

[side note]: I've noticed my avatar has changed to the dreaded "Medic". I hope it doesn't take too long to dispose of "tampon head" and move on to the next round of embarassing avatars. :p

"Ze admin, he has much understanding of der hoochie-woochie!", to borrow a term from the much respected Balz. :rotfl:

[Wolfehunter]

I'm not sure how the game mechanics works, most of the time I stay around the surface. Last patrol I tried to see how deep I could go with a VIIC I dived to 165 meters down just before the red. I had 6 destroyers hunting me. It was a large convoy. Half of my torpedos were dudes jezus I was mad. Bouncing torpedos. only 2 hit the rest missed. At least I got one kill large tanker. Anyhow at 165meters when the destroyers got pretty close overhead they stopped pinging. So I assumed I passed there sensor range. When they where about 1000 meters or more away they had a chance to ping me but it wasn't strong. This was mid year of 1941. :hmm: I did get away after 4 1/2 hours of playing cat and mouse.

By the way what is the maximum depth can I go before the sub pops.;)

[TarJak]

In rougher seas it is often safer to stay silent at PD than deeper from and ASDIC detection perspective.

[Kipparikalle]

In rougher seas it is often safer to stay silent at PD than deeper from and ASDO\IC detection perspective.
And trust me, this really works.

I attacked a convoy, scored some good hits on large ships and left them sink.
Now I had escorts hunting me, it was storming and I forgot to go deeper than PD.

Suddenly, the escorts lost me. I was pretty confused about this first, before I realized what really happened.

[P_Funk]

The sad thing about the limitations of the game as-is is that so much of what you can glean with such self satisfied glee from books on the period is useless in the paradigm of this game.

Heres one for you. Otto Kretschmer was discovered and sunk because after a successful convoy attack he retired to his cabin and allowed his XO (or whoever was senior on duty) to exfiltrate his ship to safety. His officer spotted a DD in range but whom hadn't spotted him and reacted by ordering a crash dive. Now Otto stated after his capture that he would not have dived because at night at this point in the war surface ships were blind, but that once a submarine submerged at that range he was suddenly visible to his ASDIC.

That kind of subtlety doesn't seem to work. Its like detection is a trip wire with a narrow threshold of either on or off.

As for crush depth thats a matter of experimentation. Fact is that you can safely take your sub into the red. In my VIIC I recall going as deep as 220 and surviving. Going near 200 is a good bet if you can't shake a DD. The thing is that you can assume you're safe at whatever depth you're at so long as your officer isn't telling you you're taking damage. As soon as damage appears you should start to rise up until you stop taking it. You can go much much deeper than the edge of Red. Just don't do it TOO much.

Next time you leave port just do a Das Boot and go as deep as you want to see how it goes.

[Freiwillige]

Okay im getting conflicting reports, Some say it works and others say the game cant do it. Now is this just speculation that this sim was not desighned with that in mind? Or is it stated somwhere? I dont buy into assumtions because the detail that went into this sim is phenominal, these guys did there homework. Only testing this theory will truly provide answers. Its not like it was a secret that Asdic/ sonar had limitations sounding objects near the surface. Asdic was pointed forward and down roughly 45 degrees. A surfaced u-boat which still has most of its mass below the waterline could not be detected by Asdic/sonar. Thats why u-boats attacked at night on the surface to avoid asdic.

[Phaedrus]

Staying near the surface works in rough seas.

My idea of a perfect convoy attack is a silent running 2 kt approach at periscope depth, 90 degree angle of attack.

Given a 20 ship convoy, in 5 rows of 4, I want to be two rows inside the convoy, with at least 400 M between row two and my aft tubes. This puts row 3 crossing my path at about 600 m or so. All stop at this point.

The escorts long since moved by, the lead ships now reaching about bearing 340.
Silent running off.
First shots are the meaty (tanker, whale, cruiser) targets at the rear flanks of rows 4 and 5; shooting at bearing 270-300 at a range of perhaps 3000 - 4500 m, farthest target first, two torpedo magnetic salvos running 1 - 1.5 meters below the draft.
The angle the ships are on is a terrible shot for an impact, but it exposes the magnetic head to more of the ship, increasing probability of a hit. There is no danger in firing on such a terrible angle because the convoy is moving in a straight line - we are undetected.
Aft tubes are out in another two torpedo, magnetic salvo at a decent target of similar, but slightly less range in row one or two.
Its about a 3-4 minute wait for impact.

Tube one reloads just before initial impacts. I prefer T1's at this point, because I can set them to run fast. Tube one takes a lead ship in row three, possibily row four on impact because they will soon start the zig zag. Aft tube four takes the lead ship, which is now fast approaching 180 degrees, on fast and impact.
Both of these shots should be aimed at the bow to facilitate flooding.

Properly timed, we should have impacts on 5 ships. Three almost certainly fatal, and two that should be eventually fatal as the lead ships tend to be medium to small tonnage, and flood easily in rough seas / destroyed bows.

At this point it's time to check the hydrophones / periscope and see what the escorts are doing.

If all is well, tube five and two should be ready to either put another nail in the coffin of the first two ships you hit, or if you have time... to wait until the next ships in rows 2 and 3 come into near 90 angle of attack shots. Both tubes should be running fast and impact. I am skeptical of the reliability of magnetics unless they're salvoed. If you decided to wait, you should be able to hit your target despite the zig zags - they are too close to shake the 40 kt torpedo. Aim for the bow and you have a wide margin of error. The odd time you'll get a bounce off due to a bad angle..... but c'est la vie.

With 8 forward fish gone, 4 aft, it's time to leave. Escorts should be on the way in, usually one from center of the convoy on your starboard side, and one or more from aft.
Periscope down, all the way into the housing.
We want to be on the move before they are within 4000 m. Back into Silent running, new depth 22 meters. (this is only in rough seas! If it is glass calm, you had best find your way into the cellar quickly. I loathe calm convoy attacks)

In either case, rough or calm, our exit point is the same - only the depth has changed.

We are aiming to leave the convoy at its port-astern quarter... the left rear.
This puts my big IXC at a good angle for deflecting sonar from the closing escorts, now on my left and right astern sides and closing fast.

It is advantageous to leave in this direction because of the convoy itself.
Remember how we placed ourselves between row two and three? We are now two ships deep and still between row two and three, but on our way out silently.

This provides an effective screen as the escorts have to break contact to avoid colliding with the zig zagging convoy. (I am also pretty sure that at least one merchant to my tally has killed by depth charges from a destroyer. Bonus points if that happens)

You should be able to slip right out the back without ever having been seriously engaged. You might get pinged, but resist the temptation to speed up. He's just looking for you, he hasn't found you.

I should note that the odd time if I am concerned that I stuck around too long to get my last shots off ("Load faster you morons!") I will sometimes drop a decoy in my wake in the center of the zig zagging convoy. The escorts have to try to fight their way to it through the moving convoy, and usually by the time they get there it burns itself out, leaving them to depth charge the decoy area, or proceed in a search pattern in a what ever direction they happened to be facing when they finally penetrated the convoy screen.

I have found success with this method, playing with a big IXC with the alberich coating, late 1940 to my current time, February 1943.
Above all, safety first. I am more concerned with surviving and not having to start a new patrol than I am sinking another freighter....

Anyway. Thats just how I roll.

Experiment to find your own pattern for success.
Hope it helped.


Edit: Nuts. I had multiple forum threads open at the same time, and I managed to reply to the wrong post.

It still kind of works in this one as well though, so I'll leave it be.

Moral of the story: Shallow water works based on conditions.
Rough seas, and a convoy to run interference for me, I'll do it all day..... or at least, I'll do it until later on in the war when conditions might force me to change - I've only gotten as far as early 1943, and I haven't yet hit the dreaded month of May.

Regards,

Phaedrus

[Albrecht Von Hesse]

I've started looking into this several weeks ago. It's one of the things I intend to experiment with once I've caught up with all my other mod projects. :oops:

As an aside, I'm working on the angle of depth charges leaving behind pockets of 'noise' after they explode. Which is what they really did. It took between 10 - 15 minutes after a DC attack for that noise to disappate and for escorts to try re-acquiring contact again. Quite often a U-boat could evade and creep away during that time.

The mod I'm working on shows a lot of promise so far with that. It's being alpha tested for now (anything dealing with AI behavior --sensors in particular-- requires a lot of testing) but, so far, things are looking quite good!

[Platapus]

Check out http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=45

Negative refraction: during the summer temperature of water decreasing by depth of the water. Sound wave is bending towards the sea bottom. If submarine is on smaller depth, near the sea surface, sonar can’t detect the submarine. Range of the sonar is bigger if the submarine is merged on deeper depth.

Still a pretty gutsy thing to count on.:nope:

[CptGrayWolf]

I would find it hard to beleive that the developers didnt take that into account when the developers of AOD did.

Why hard to believe? The SH3 devs also din't take into account little things likes wolfpacks and dynamic radio communications.

[Sailor Steve]

I propose to test this theory. Periscope depth avoidance. I will try this many times throughout the week and post my results. any other testers want to volunteer their u-boat time?
Don't bother. Since I don't have a career going while I'm testing things, I get my jollies playing the 'Happy Times' scenario. I can't tell you how many times I've been rammed at periscope depth.

They know exactly where you are.

[Wreford-Brown]

I use a mixture of tactics:
I try to get inside the convoy and shoot near the forward edge of it. Once torpedoes are gone, I spiral down at flank speed to as deep as my u-boat will go then sneak away at silent running. The escorts have great difficulty finding me as the convoy passes over me due to the AI avoidance programming (I justify this use of the game engine as simulating them being unable to detect me due to the sound of the convoy), and when I'm extremely deep their ASDIC doesn't have the depth to detect me, especially if I get under the thermal layer.

It's worked up to Aug 43, experiments continue...

[Jimbuna]

I would find it hard to beleive that the developers didnt take that into account when the developers of AOD did.

Why hard to believe? The SH3 devs also din't take into account little things likes wolfpacks and dynamic radio communications.

There is quite a long list of 'things' thast weren't put in game.....but that was over three years ago and so much has now been modded in.....take the pros with the cons.

The good thing about SH3 is that you never know what somebody might add or come up with at any given time http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[CptGrayWolf]

I would find it hard to beleive that the developers didnt take that into account when the developers of AOD did.

Why hard to believe? The SH3 devs also din't take into account little things likes wolfpacks and dynamic radio communications.

There is quite a long list of 'things' thast weren't put in game.....but that was over three years ago and so much has now been modded in.....take the pros with the cons.

The good thing about SH3 is that you never know what somebody might add or come up with at any given time http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

Well I was answering Freiwillige and simply making a point that the SHIII devs omittied a couple of important things that the AOD devs did not. Newer doesn't always mean better. ;)

[Jimbuna]

I would find it hard to beleive that the developers didnt take that into account when the developers of AOD did.

Why hard to believe? The SH3 devs also din't take into account little things likes wolfpacks and dynamic radio communications.

There is quite a long list of 'things' thast weren't put in game.....but that was over three years ago and so much has now been modded in.....take the pros with the cons.

The good thing about SH3 is that you never know what somebody might add or come up with at any given time http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

Well I was answering Freiwillige and simply making a point that the SHIII devs omittied a couple of important things that the AOD devs did not. Newer doesn't always mean better. ;)

I know that matey...and I'm actually agreeing with you http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[CptGrayWolf]

I know that matey...and I'm actually agreeing with you http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

Oh well in that case let me buy you a beck! :D :()1:

[Jimbuna]

I know that matey...and I'm actually agreeing with you http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

Oh well in that case let me buy you a beck! :D :()1:

Danke Kaleun http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v499/c_jane24/Smileys/lager.gif