View Full Version : A u-boat related question...
Don't worry, I'm not ill. :D
I know squat about the u-boats, but I seem to recall they don't have a TDC. Could u-boats change the gyros on the fly? Do they in SH4?
The USN S-boats didn't have a TDC.
Does the 1.5 patch mean that (perhaps with an instrument reskin) we can fix the pig boats to have a less sophisticated fire control system?
tater
Ducimus
03-07-08, 10:59 PM
THey had a TDC, its close to whats been created for them in game (imported from SH3), but its my understanding that the real world ones didnt have a salvo function like they do in SH3. While not historically correct as its rendered in game (or so is my understanding), that salvo function is pretty nifty. Try it, i garuntee you'll like it. They also have some adjustments to support pattern running torpedos. They do not however, have a position keeper.
Think it could be modded, perhaps with some of the controls simply removed, to make a less sophisticated fire control for the pig boats?
tater
Ducimus
03-07-08, 11:39 PM
Thats one hell of a menu.ini mod job your talking there. Editing (limiting)its functionality isn't the problem. The real problem , might be getting it to work PTO game to begin with, and then limitinig it ONLY to the S boats.
Sailor Steve
03-08-08, 06:24 AM
...but its my understanding that the real world ones didnt have a salvo function like they do in SH3...
Actually they did. I questioned it and someone put up a photo. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure it didn't function at all like it does in the game, but rather just told the torpedo crew which tubes to fire; they still had to be fired several seconds apart, so it just saved the captain the extra step of ordering each launch.
The photo? I was was homeless at the the time and couldn't download it, so you'll just have to take my word for it (yeah, right).
The photo? I was was homeless at the the time and couldn't download it, so you'll just have to take my word for it (yeah, right).
I remember that pic.
CinC Battleforce
03-08-08, 02:39 PM
actually if i remember correctly the s-boats were fitted with the Mark 1 TDC that was developed in the Catchalot class boats. The sugar boats used in alaskan water based out of Dutch Harbor were refitted at Mare Island with it in 1942. By the time of their early 1944 withdraw to the Sub School in New London, Connecticut, they were also out fitted with better sonar and even with radar. Primary limiting factor the S-boats being of use in the 1944-45 peried was that they were limited to a 30-45 day patrol whle the fleet boats could do a 75 day patrol. The S-boats, in 1944, would have still been a viable weapon, if the sub campiegn was still a diffensive one. Their size limited their usefulness to coastal warfare, so they were retired to New London.
Yes the german U-Boats had a TDC, and a quite sophisticated one (Though not as much as the US TDC). There was a setting in the german TDC for firing salvos:
http://aycu36.webshots.com/image/44835/2004844393702525317_rs.jpg
though there was no position keeper. In turn, the TDC updated automatically the Gyro Angle according to the scope position, i.e. if you turned the scope or TDC to follow the target, the GA was updated automatically. In real life, since the update calculated by the analogic computer took a few seconds and it could ruin the solution for a "on the fly" shot, it was mainly aimed to a position where the target would cross later.
So, in essence, Hitman, the German TDC in-game works like its real-world counterpart?
Ducimus
03-08-08, 11:12 PM
Im with sailor steve on this one. Its probaby signals an indicator to the crewman in the forward torpedo room, as opposed to physically controlling the tubes in a salvo. Torpedomen did that.
Its probaby signals an indicator to the crewman in the forward torpedo room, as opposed to physically controlling the tubes in a salvo. Torpedomen did that.
Exactly. I think people get confused with the button that "fires" the torpedoes. In reality, in both the U-boats and the fleet subs, the "fire torpdeo" button that we are familiar with sent a signal to the respective torpedo room personnel to fire the tube in question. The torpedomen would squeeze a handle that forced the torpedo out of the tube by means of compressed air. "Salvo" mode just told the torpedomen which tubes to flood and to fire, nothing more than that.
Well yes and no. True, there was no button for the captain to press and shoot the torpedoes, and instead he ordered "Fire 1, 2...." as a voice command, BUT the TDC operator did set the spread angle in the TDC and it was transmitted automatically to the torpedoes in the tubes. Also, it was updated in real time according to the target bearing, according to where the scope/UZo was aiming at, as I described previously.
For salvoes, the captain had two options:
1) Order the crew to shoot several tubes simultaneously, while the spread angle was set from the TDC (F.e. "prepare tubes 1,3 and 4....flood...open doors...LOS! -for all three-"), or
2) Order the crew to shoot several tubes as he ordered them one by one, using the timing between them to make the spread (F.e. "prepare tubes 1,3 and 4....flood...open doors...Rohr 1 LOS....Rohr 3 LOS.....Rohr 4 LOS").
This last method was used mainly when he had torpedoes with different speeds in the salvo (electrics and steam ones) and he wanted to time the impact at the same moment.
Cheers
andycaccia
03-10-08, 08:24 AM
The missing salvo in sh4 seems to be a missing feature in us subs...even a sub that doesn't have the spread angle could launch easily a salvo from bow tubes agains one big target, as the commander gived the proper order...I think.
The missing salvo in sh4 seems to be a missing feature in us subs...even a sub that doesn't have the spread angle could launch easily a salvo from bow tubes agains one big target, as the commander gived the proper order...I think.
AFAIK US subs actually miss the automated salvo function. That part was one of my biggest gripes transitioning from SH3 to 4. I thought it was just missed by the programmers, but I was told and explained that US subs actually didn't have the salvo mode. Instead adjustments were done manually for each torpedo and then fired.
I am mightly glad that little feature is back with the german boats. For me it's a greater asset then the position keeper.
and after spending quite a bit of time with the Fleet Boats, firing a spread becomes second nature, you can adjust angle on each individual torpedo left or right to spread the shots. If you are using the O'Kane method then the shots will be spread by timing and target forward motion. Either way its just deadly! Apart from the duds.
The lack of salvoes on US subs is entirely a lack of having the paradigm for the game be the player as captain.
In RL you could easily order a spread, and it would simply happen. That's what your firing party is for. It's like the all or nothing map plotting we have.
What we need is for the map to be plotted for us, but not based on the "all seeing eye," but rather the captain's observations. I briefly "lock" a target, and that bearing gets plotted on the map for me with a serial number (target 1, target 2, and so forth).
When I put the scope up 5 minutes later for a new observation, then it places a new bearing for target 1, etc as I observe them. If I take a range, it plots that, too.
The team generates the plot for me.
That is what the firign should be. I should be able to order a spread, and the type, and the crew should make it happen.
Say I order a spread of 4 fish and no spread angle. The torpedo room will simply shoot the 4 tubes serialy, one every 8 seconds. As skipper, I would order "fire" (press the button), and the first fish would go, and to make the spread I might order a slight course change. If I have a spread angle, it would set the first at 0, the next by the spread angle, the next at the spread anglex2, etc.
The crew needs to act like crew.
tater
Ducimus
03-10-08, 11:54 AM
Who says you cant fire a salvo in a fleet boat! :rotfl:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/uboat_addon_03.jpg
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/preview/uboat_addon_04.jpg
The lack of salvoes on US subs is entirely a lack of having the paradigm for the game be the player as captain....
Very astute observations, and I hope it's something the devs are taking note of for future development work.
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