Evading torpedoes in the FFG

[Wolfhound]

I know this has been talked about before but I haven't really been able to find an adequate solution for it. As far as I can tell the FFG is pretty much helpless against torpedoes. I can evade fine in the subs, as the CMs seem to work well, but is the Nixie rather ineffecteve or is it just me? ... I've tried turning to get it to turn into the torpedo's path but that doesn't seem to work very well.... actually I did trick one with it I'm pretty sure but the others hit me before I could see the result. Speaking of which, what good is any CM that can only fool one torpedo at a time and then needs to be lengthily redeployed when any good sub skipper, even an AI one, always sends more than one torpedo after you?

Any tips evading torpedoes with the FFG, or am I right? Are you pretty much dead if they lock onto you?

[Dr.Sid]

Nixie is rather ineffective, right.

But you get it all wrong (most people do). You think about it as a game. To get shot at is no big thing, so you thing how to avoid the torpedo.

In real life you should think about how to not get shot at in the first place. And this is the main defense against torpedoes in FFG too.

When you simply can't avoid it, there is practically only thing you can do, but it works quite well. It's running. FFG has plenty of speed. You must get out of the incoming torpedo seeking area before the torpedo gets there. For that it is usefull to know where exactly torpedo aims. While sub is blind at high speeds, FFG can use buoys for that.

Also FFG can simply outrun some torpedoes. Not that it's faster, but since the torpedo has limited range and is shot from some distance, the chance of evading it by simply running away from it is quite big.
There are same tables here in thread which shows ranges and speeds at which you can evade each torpedo.



Both methods are very useful for subs too.

[sonar732]

From the FFG guide at Commanders Academy & Dive...

= Anti Torpedo Warfare =

== The sensor war ==

Against torpedoes, the sensor war is simple. As long as you have a working sonar, you should be able to detect any torpedoes in the area. This means a max speed for ownship sensors, or the use of sonobuoys.

The first order of the day may be an evasive maneuver, so as to invalidate a firing solution, but the second is determining what kind of torpedo has been fired, and on who.

== Know your enemy ==

In DW there are three types of torpedoes.

# Wakehoming
# Acoustic
# Wireguided Acoustic

=== The wakehoming torpedo ===
...is a special case. Unless fired from very close to point blank, it's easily avoided.

If it is fired with a lead, either stopping or mirroring your course will make it a wasted shot. If you hold a speed of 4 knots, you're no longer making the wake it homes on. It can however, home directly on your hull, should it get close enough. (~500m, lwami ~50)

If fired into the wake you've just created, on the other hand, they're coming for you. Unless the torpedo will need too much time getting to it, so that it expires before then.

If it does get on your trail, your best chances will be with maneuvering, though this may be an exercise in futility.

=== The Acoustic torpedo ===

The best thing is to get out of its path. These are nearly always fired on a solution, and maneuvering to invalidate the solution it was fired on will then make it miss - unless its fired from close enough not to matter.

'''If wireguided''' the one who fired it can resteer it, and it's a cat and mouse game of trying to make him steer it wrong. With the odds generally strongly in his favour. You'll have to rob him of his sensors, which is not quite doable should he have external sensors (UUV), or even rob him of his life. If he's dead he can't guide. (easier said than done.)

Should getting away not be an option, two things might help. First, the nixie towed decoy. This will create a racket when in the water, so should not be deployed when not needed. (Todo: verify)

Secondly, slow down. It doesn't matter how noisy the nixie is if you're outnoising it. If you slow down to 9 knots or less you even get the bonus of the hull passive, whose primary use is the detection and tracking of torpedoes. It will also show ship-relative, which is useful for telling if it homes on you or the nixie.

''LWAMI note: Since the torpedoes no longer detonate on the nixie, you probably want to make sure you're not right behind it''

[Dr.Sid]

AFAIK noise of the target only affects detection range. Once the target is detected and locked, it will not be switched, even if more noisy target appears near (or better return for active).
So the point is to prepare target which will be acquired before you can be acquired. Both active and passive torpedo sensors have small range, I guess you won't be able to be quiet enough so the torpedo would ignore you when you get into its acquisition cone. So moving slow has no sense. You just need to arrange it so nixie enters the torpedo's acquisition cone before you.

Anyway I have never successfully used nixie and I'm not even trying any more. Getting away or simply running works.
Smoking them before they can shoot works even better.

As you mentioned, firing back should be part of the evasion ! :rock:

[Molon Labe]

A quick LWAMI related note: the note supra is out of date. Here's the deal.

When DW 1.04 came out, detonate-on-decoy settings became adjustable settings. Because players now had a choice in the matter, there was no need for the LWAMI change that made torpedoes pass through decoys, so the first LWAMI after 1.04 had this feature removed. But, it didn't take long for complaints to come in about the Nixie being completely worthless if it didn't detonate, along with some speculative realism concerns. So, the current version of LWAMI reinstated the no-detonations-on-decoys feature for expendable decoys, while the towed decoys remained subject to the .ini settings.

[Molon Labe]

Anyway I have never successfully used nixie and I'm not even trying any more. Getting away or simply running works.
Smoking them before they can shoot works even better.



Assuming the .ini settings allow detonations on the towed decoy:

1. Towed decoys are nominally effective in a tail chase situation.
2. Towed decoys are as effective as expendable decoys for breaking a lock by an acquired torpedo. Just as when using an expendable decoy, the evading ship must cause the torpedo sensor to sweep over the decoy. In the FFG, this is done by performing an S-turn. The difficulty is knowing when to perform the S-turn without the use of an active intercept sensor.

While I'm commenting though, I want to express agreement that the most effective evasion tactic for the FFG is dragging. You can beat a USET or 53-56K by dragging alone unless they were fired from something like 4nm (check the NE range chart for an exact figure). Against a UGST salvo, dragging will likely cause a spacing between the torpedoes in the salvo that might allow time for Nixie redeployment.

[Wolfhound]

I'm doing a little better now. I think part of the problem was that I wasn't turning hard enough with the nixie streamed for it to be an effective decoy... the situation that really got me enough to make this post was the little surprise in the "Gunboat Diplomacy" mission. I was hit with a torpedo very shortly after knowing what happened... my sonar operator was good enough to say "torpedo in the water" sometime in between during the 20 or so "loud explosions" from the gun battle with the destroyer.

First thing I tried was running 180 degrees from the bearing I was shot at from, streaming the nixie and zig-zagging... which didn't seem to work out very well. Also the destroyer's guns had damaged my torpedo tubes so I was pretty much helpless until I could get the helo aloft.

[SeaQueen]

I can evade fine in the subs, as the CMs seem to work well, but is the Nixie rather ineffecteve or is it just me?

It's not the ultimate countermeasure, no.

Speaking of which, what good is any CM that can only fool one torpedo at a time and then needs to be lengthily redeployed when any good sub skipper, even an AI one, always sends more than one torpedo after you?

It's one less torpedo you need to evade the hard way.

Any tips evading torpedoes with the FFG, or am I right? Are you pretty much dead if they lock onto you?

It depends. I'm going to second that the best way to avoid torpedoes in the FFG is to not have them shot at you in the first place. Speed is the way to do that. One of the disadvantages of submarines is that for them to remain stealthy, they must go slow, and for conventional submarines it's even worse because they're not even capable of high sustained speeds. Surface ships will always be less stealthy than submarines, so you can't play them like a submarine. Rather, it's better to go faster, and take advantage of your speed and maneuverability.

Speed is important because it limits the space in which a submarine can originate and pass within his torpedo range of you. The exact size of that space can actually be calculated by making different assumptions about the target's speed.

The other thing is, to zig zag every few minutes. That has the effect of spoiling any firing solution a submarine might have on you and also makes it harder for any submarines to plot a course to put themselves in torpedo range. I always plan on that being about 10Nmi because the wakehomers in the game have that range.

I also can't help but wonder if crossing your own wake might confuse wake-homing torpedoes in the game. I need to experiment with that.

[Wolfhound]

Speaking of wakehomers, I haven't had to deal with those in the FFG, just the acoustic ones. Avoiding them is one thing, but you have to know what you're dealing with first. I suppose you could use the towed array to classify them. I know when I'm in the Kilo warships will invariably try to run from wakehomers like any other kind of torpedo. Since only the warships hear the torpedoes and run, falling into the trap, I never use wakehomers on cargo or supply ships as they aren't that effective there, unless you're directly behind the ship, but a normal torpedo would be just as good.

[Dr.Sid]

On the other hand, if you are in Kilo, especially chinese Kilo, wakehomers has much better range and speed than any other torpedo.

[SeaQueen]

Yeah... really... for me they're my weapon of choice. The other thing that's nice about them is tha they're easy to shoot. They're basically point and shoot.

On the other hand, if you are in Kilo, especially chinese Kilo, wakehomers has much better range and speed than any other torpedo.

[goldorak]

Don't forget that with the frigate you get the Mh-60R, use it to go down the bearing the enemy torpedo is incoming and use the dipping sonar to sneak out the sub.
With luck you'll get a contact and give the skipper a little suprise on his head. :p
In lwami : frigate+mh-60R is a very deadly combination against sub skippers. :D

[Dr.Sid]

Yes .. it's good to think about FFG as movable helo base.

[SeaQueen]

Yes .. it's good to think about FFG as movable helo base.

Definitely. It's sonar is less capable than the DDGs. It's got fewer and less capable missiles. The helo, ultimately, is the long-arm of the FFG. Effective helo use is the key to really knowing how to fight the FFG.

[TLAM Strike]

Don't forget the SONOBUOYS. They can be one of the most helpful things to have in torp evason, you just need to drop them before the fish come your way (unless its a long range shot). The LOBs from two buoys can help you pinpoint the location of the incoming torpedo, determin its type and weather or not its pointed at you. DICASS in active mode can also give you a fantastic picture of whats coming your way if you know how to read the gram. And best of all you can go as fast as you want with out the buoy being washed out.

[TLAM Strike]

Yes .. it's good to think about FFG as movable helo base.

Definitely. It's sonar is less capable than the DDGs. It's got fewer and less capable missiles. The helo, ultimately, is the long-arm of the FFG. Effective helo use is the key to really knowing how to fight the FFG.

Errr I wouldn't go that far. (I'm not totaly sure about this in DW but IRL) the hull mounted sonar on the FFG is more effective than the bow mounted ones found on the Burke DDG and Spru-can in shallow water since its less powerful resulting in fewer reflection from the bottom. Also in high sea states and at high speeds the hull mounted sonar is peferable due to its location.

The MK13 with SM-1MR missiles is a fantastic A/A weapon for a Frigate. Most frigates around the world have to make due with SAMs like the ESSM, while the FFG-7 has an area defense system thats designed to be plugged in to a battlegroups SAM network. Of course this is at the expense of A/S weapons like ASROCs.

[SeaQueen]

Errr I wouldn't go that far. (I'm not totaly sure about this in DW but IRL) the hull mounted sonar on the FFG is more effective than the bow mounted ones found on the Burke DDG and Spru-can in shallow water since its less powerful resulting in fewer reflection from the bottom. Also in high sea states and at high speeds the hull mounted sonar is peferable due to its location.

Interesting, I'll have to check that out.


The MK13 with SM-1MR missiles is a fantastic A/A weapon for a Frigate. Most frigates around the world have to make due with SAMs like the ESSM, while the FFG-7 has an area defense system thats designed to be plugged in to a battlegroups SAM network. Of course this is at the expense of A/S weapons like ASROCs.

I suppose they were great back when they didn't have to worry about them being so old that most of the time the fins fell off them at launch. Personally, in this day an age, I figure the FFG-7 would do best with a RAM.

[OneShot]

... Also in high sea states and at high speeds the hull mounted sonar is peferable due to its location
You sure about this ? As far as passive goes (the TA cant do active) I'd say that especially in High sea states the TA beats the Hull mounted hands down because it only has to content with the flow noise due to speed and it can go deeper and thus be out of the surface noise. The Hull mounted might even temporarily come out of the water at high speeds in high seas.

[TLAM Strike]

The MK13 with SM-1MR missiles is a fantastic A/A weapon for a Frigate. Most frigates around the world have to make due with SAMs like the ESSM, while the FFG-7 has an area defense system thats designed to be plugged in to a battlegroups SAM network. Of course this is at the expense of A/S weapons like ASROCs.

I suppose they were great back when they didn't have to worry about them being so old that most of the time the fins fell off them at launch. Personally, in this day an age, I figure the FFG-7 would do best with a RAM.

Currently I don't think the Navy is going to give the FFG7 RAMs insted they are upgrading the CIWS to engade faster targets.


... Also in high sea states and at high speeds the hull mounted sonar is peferable due to its location
You sure about this ? As far as passive goes (the TA cant do active) I'd say that especially in High sea states the TA beats the Hull mounted hands down because it only has to content with the flow noise due to speed and it can go deeper and thus be out of the surface noise. The Hull mounted might even temporarily come out of the water at high speeds in high seas. I'm just talking about hull/bow mounted in active mode here. In passive the bow mounted on destroyers is far better than the hull mounted on the FFG7. If were talking about the TAs then the Burke and FFG7 have the same basic system the SQR-19, however the Burkes were upgraded to the SQR-19(V). The FFG7's Hull mounted SQS-56's passive mode is really for torpedo warning and not for passive detection of submarines.

Back on the subject of Bow vs. Hull, in high sea states the bow mounted sonar will lift out of the water in a lower sea state than a hull mounted one since the hull mounted sonar is closer to the center of the ship. Also hull mounted sonars don't suffer from increased flow noise since the bow of the ship dampens that.

[kage]

From the FFG guide at Commanders Academy & Dive...

(snip lotsa crap I wrote)



I think I said a few times to throw it away; simply because it misinforms a great deal. I never got around to rewriting it, though.

A good number of things were confirmed to be wrong, I think some may have changed, and so on.

I guess that even as bad as it is, there's nothing better.


I am of the opinion that in the ASW role, nothing beats the "floating helopad" tactic for these ships.
-Staying far away and stealthy
4 knots and slower to not cavitate, (as appropriate)
no radar, (as appropriate)
and absolutely no active sonar
-Giving the pilots a place to refuel/reload.
-Monitoring TA for loud transients associated with launches, cavitation, what-have-you.
-Help processing buoys through the datalink
-Organize information
-Use the gun camera for long-distance surface visual classification. (no binoculars? wtf? Nor can they access their own recon camera that you can use for them? double-wtf?)
-To discourage the popup sam site, launch a harpoon to pass over as the helo does to drop that torpedo. (Note: It doesn't shut down afterwards*, beware of neutrals.)

* last time I tried. Did anything change?

And unless you're playing DW on a lan party, don't ever let a player manually land his helo. The autopilot is slow as hell, but it's better than overloading the internet connection, lagging out, crashing, disconnecting, or worse.

(What's worse? Some DirectPlay thing in Operation Flashpoint caused loss of partition. Yeah. Really.)

At that range, torpedoes are a non-issue. You have the greatest standoff weapon available in (playable) DW. Use it.


... though that's not always an option. For example, quick missions start you in the middle of a very hot area, with the subs well within firing range. Even if you do have quick helo launches turned on, you're either screwed, or the subs are at flank doing their own stupid thing.

Or the close escort missions. Or <90ft shallows. Or ... well, a lot of things.


As for once you actually have the torpedo coming your way, what it says in my guide is mostly correct, except about the nixie. My experience has been that if you keep the torpedo at your 180, it'll shut down on the nixie; but not always. (I think that corresponds to the "only one torpedo" thing). Keeping it out at all times has no disadvantages except the conditions that can make any towed thing break. The biggest advantage to 180 is still the part about outrunning the torps range.

I've also had wakehomers pass through my hull without detonating or breaking their stride at <5 knots. (Where the wake disappears.)
That happened way after I wrote that stuff, and I don't know how much lwami had to do with it.

Somebody knowledgeable really should look over that guide and give it a proper overhaul.

Better yet, we should get all those bugs fixed. Oh wait... :damn:

With too little competition, there's too little incentive. All good wishes to Dr Sid; you're probably exactly what we need right now. Please save us. :-?