[REL] Surface draft and dive time mod + more (beta)

[swdw]

IF you install ALL of PE2 please read!!

I gave Kriller2 a slightly updated version of this mod that he included with the latest release of PE2 as one of the optional installs.

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This is the mod that changes the way the boats ride on the surface, They now sit lower, roll and pitch is more natural (from the feedback I've received) and dive times are closer to realistic. This mod is JSGME ready.

As with most work like this, credit is due to multiple people. These files are dreived from previous works, changes were made by more than one individual and individuals helped test. So credit should be given to:
Previous work utilized: Ducimus, LeoVampire
Current changes: LukeFF, swdw
Testing: AVGWarhawk, Wilcke, Ducimus

It should work with any mod. If you use TM, RFB or ROW, make sure this is installed AFTER any /all of these.

*************************************************
READ THIS SECTION BEFORE TESTING!!!!!

Because of all the possible ways to do the tests that will give varying times, I used a standard based on what I could gather from reading some historical info. If you don't use the same method, you will get different numbers.

Here's how this was tested

Dive times are not to PD, but to where nothing is above the water any more. This was how the boats clocked their time. They knew the keel depth required to be totally submerged (40-50 ft depending on the boat)

If you tell the boat to go to PD and try to time to PD, the leveling off drastically slows the time down. The boat starts to change the angle of attack before the sub is entirely below the surface.

Normal dive was timed by using the normal dive command, or telling the boat to go to 100 ft by clicking on the depth gauge.

Dive rate tests for normal dive are at a standard bell and will be slower at lower bells. Once the ballast tanks are flooded, everything else depends on the planes and trim tanks.

Crash dive tests were performed with the boat starting at standard bell ( cruising speed)

Start clock after klaxon on dive or alarm on emergency dive. If you start it at different time you can introduce a 5-10 second variation.

Underwater tests conducted at 2/3 bell

Ascent/descent
Start at 60 feet and dive to 250. Time as boat passes through 100-200ft so leveling off does not affect test

Start at 250 feet and set depth to 60. Time as boat passes through 200-100ft so leveling off does not affect test

At higher bells, the underwater time decreases.

Based on generic info for fleet boats, turning on fleet boats was set to 1 deg sec submerged at 8 knots.

Acceleration- close to historical
Deceleration- game engine problem, coasts like it's greased- 6x historical values. Will take a LOT of work to try and fix, if it's fixable as game engine does not take into account prop drag so will save for later work.

************************************************** ***

Additional changes-
Engine bell speeds changed to reflect maritime "definition" of how a standard bell is derived. A standard bell is defined as the best cruising speed that gives good fuel economy while getting you there at a reasonable speed. 1/3 and 2/3 are fractions of a standard bell, not a flank bell.

Ranges, Luke made some changes to the ranges. I threw in a couple of extras. Fleet boat no longer all have the same battery life. Endurance was improved as you progressed from the Porpoise to the Gato class.

Please note that the boats are "roughed in" in this release.

The S-boat is the fastest diver and turner.
There are slight variations in the dive time of each class because the difference between the surfaced and submerged displacement varies with each class of boat, as does the ballast tank flood speeds. This will need to be fine tuned in the future.Some draft changes may occur (less than 6 inches). General rule of thumb I've found when playing with most changes related to physics modeling is the old 80/20 rule applies. It takes about 20% of the total time to get to about 80% of your goal and then 80% of the time is spent tweaking for that last 20%

If you want to give this mod a try, go here:
http://files.filefront.com/diverateRC2zip/;9602812;/fileinfo.html

Hope you find this enjoyable

http://www.kickinbak.com/posts/Panorama.jpg

[Archie]

Thankyou swdw, d/l now :up:

Edit: Have just run a few single missions and a career patrol in good old Bowfish, no problems at all, love your work mate!

[dcb]

Your mod comes at perfect timing for me, as precisely right now I'm doing a lot of research here on the forum and ingame about the way subs sit in the water, pitch and roll. I find the effect of "train on rails" a huge immersion killer. Thanks for the mod, will try it right now.:up:

[Nuc]

Thanks. A lot of good research. Did you do anything with the turn rates?

[Schultzy]

Am downloading as I type! Thanks a lot, can't wait to try it out.

[399nkov]

Thanks swdw. This is just what I've been trying to do myself. No luck for me. Having served on two Balaos in the early '60s, it really bothered me the way the subs were sitting in the sim. The pics look right on.
D/L, in port, will try it out now.

[swdw]

Thanks. A lot of good research. Did you do anything with the turn rates? The only numbers I could find were for submerged at 8 and 4 knots. I set the turning at 8 knots and will come back and tweak so both 4 and 8 are correct- that leads to the 80/20 rule mentioned above for getting the changes and is one of the reasons these are considered "roughed in".

Plan on working on the IJN destroyers to change their acceleration and turning before doing more work on these values with the subs.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Very nice work :yep::up:


RDP

[FC Raptor]

Balao Class

I have installed this mod, right off the bat it looks good, but at PD top of the conning tower is sticking about 1-1.5 m above the water, and my depth gauge is reading 14.5 meters , Crash depth is showing 35.7 ish and cfg has it at 45.7.
Also i ordered diffrent depths using the depth gauge and it way off,
example 40 meters depth ordered and depth gauge shows 24 m depth..
If you order keep at depth (a.) sub will go to periscope depth.

Hope this helps
other than that, it looks good.

[AVGWarhawk]

Don't do what I did....:oops: ......I was hitting the P key for periscope depth. This is incorrect as pointed out by Swdw. If you hit the P key for periscope depth while surfaced, you will not submerge for over 4 minutes. You must hit the D key for normal dive for this to work. Normal dive was what was used to begin the submerging process. So hit the D key. Once she is close to periscope depth, then hit your P key if you want periscope depth at that time.

You guys will love how the submarines act in the water environment now.

[AVGWarhawk]

Stickied.....it is worthy of a stickie thread.

[Torps]

think I will wait for the final release with the bugs fixed :up: . Great work btw, this fix has been needed.

[399nkov]

Balao Class: My two cents worth.

In Heavy seas, Props stay submerged, water over the bridge, (If water went over the sail, main induction would close causing the engines to suck all the air out of the boat) not too much roll when underway. Very nice.

When stopped in calm waters, she seems a bit low. For real, water lapped just at the top of the ballast tanks when dead in the water. This may be a problem with the model itself. I wonder if there is a way to get the bow up a little and the stern where it is. Just a thought. I'am not one to complain. I appreciate all the time spent by everyone who makes these mods work.
My dive rates were 45 seconds at standard and 35 seconds at flank.
Speed has dropped a little at different bells.

In my opinion, this mod re-creates actual movements of a sub underway and will always be installed with my other mods.

Thank you SWDW

[AVGWarhawk]

think I will wait for the final release with the bugs fixed :up: . Great work btw, this fix has been needed.

I'm suspecting this will be it. It is very good as it stands. Give it a try.

[Torps]

think I will wait for the final release with the bugs fixed :up: . Great work btw, this fix has been needed.

I'm suspecting this will be it. It is very good as it stands. Give it a try.

This is the "(beta)" my friend. It is very very very tempting though!:hmm: Ah heck why not!!!


I can't download SWDW must be updating.

[swdw]

I'm suspecting this will be it. It is very good as it stands. Give it a try.
Not quite;)

Update to file uploaded. This replaces the earlier version. Fixes problems I missed with periscope and surface depth in the config files.

Small change to a couple of sub drafts too (like 4 inches)

New file
http://files.filefront.com/diverateRC2zip/;9602812;/fileinfo.html

Link in first post is updated.

The reason for AVGwarhawk's using the PD command warning has to do with how the game engine handles tthe PD command when on the surface. The boat starts to level off almost as soon as the deck is below the surface. This changes the angle of attack to a very shallow angle and makes the boat take forever to get to PD.

In real life the OOD would tell the planesmen how many degrees down bubble to use in getting to PD, or they'd just get down quick and then come to PD.

Since plane angle is beyond out control, I can't do anything about that.

399nkov- getting the bow up a little will require a huge amount of additional work which I'll tackle at a later date. Reason being is the only setting that affects that is the FR ratio which screws with LOTS of other things on the boat, the deck guns being the first I can think about.

Fc Raptor- Thanks for catching the PD issue. It's fixed in the new file. However, I can't duplicate the problem with the A key or clicking on the gauges. Do you have a depth gauge mod installed?

[Torps]

I'm suspecting this will be it. It is very good as it stands. Give it a try.
Not quite;)

Update to file uploaded. This replaces the earlier version. Fixes problems I missed with periscope and surface depth in the config files.

Small change to a couple of sub drafts too (like 4 inches)

New file
http://files.filefront.com/diverateRC2zip/;9602812;/fileinfo.html

Link in first post is updated.

The reason for AVGwarhawk's using the PD command warning has to do with how the game engine handles tthe PD command when on the surface. The boat starts to level off almost as soon as the deck is below the surface. This changes the angle of attack to a very shallow angle and makes the boat take forever to get to PD.

In real life the OOD would tell the planesmen how many degrees down bubble to use in getting to PD, or they'd just get down quick and then come to PD.

Since plane angle is beyond out control, I can't do anything about that.

399nkov- getting the bow up a little will require a huge amount of additional work which I'll tackle at a later date. Reason being is the only setting that affects that is the FR ratio which screws with LOTS of other things on the boat, the deck guns being the first I can think about.

Fc Raptor- Thanks for catching the PD issue. It's fixed in the new file. However, I can't duplicate the problem with the A key or clicking on the gauges. Do you have a depth gauge mod installed?

Hello Cap;)

I know since this is beat and you love input. The Gato runs very low in the water I changed the GC_height to 2.0 and draught to 5.5. Check it out, I think you might like it. I haven't had the chance to look at everyboat.

[swdw]

Thanks, Torps. As stated earlier, these are "roughed in", so feedback is appreciated.

I think 5.5 is a little too high, and by that I do mean a little (I might give 5.65 to 5.75 a try, only a 6-7 inch difference from 5.5- just a little ;) ). This is where we're in the realm of taking a lot of time to get it "just right". Something I plan to do with this, but not until I get the work done I need to on the next RFB release. Since we have some Balao sailors here, they can help.

Reference pictures only help so far as the draft will depend on how fulluy loaded she is. I was going for a full war load and supply loadout ready for 60+ days at sea look, but am open to adjustments.

Just remember to change the surfaced depth and double check your PD in the cfg file when making draft changes. You also need to change the submerged draft when you change the surface draft.

[JimRat]

SWDW,

One thing to consider when adjusting for "war" load displacements; was that the boat would ride HIGHER in the water when full of fuel, especially after the boats started using some of the ballast tanks to hold extra Fuel as the fuel is lighter than water. I actually experienced this on my ship, (a DDG, "Ayatollah" class), in the 80s when I was in the USN. We also used "wet" fuel tanks that would fill with Seawater as the Fuel was used up to push the fuel up to the engine fuel intakes which were located at the top of the tanks. We would actually sit 6" to 12" lower in the water when we were low on fuel than when fully Fueled.

I hope this helps a little.


JimRat

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm suspecting this will be it. It is very good as it stands. Give it a try.
Not quite;)

Update to file uploaded. This replaces the earlier version. Fixes problems I missed with periscope and surface depth in the config files.

Small change to a couple of sub drafts too (like 4 inches)

New file
http://files.filefront.com/diverateRC2zip/;9602812;/fileinfo.html

Link in first post is updated.

The reason for AVGwarhawk's using the PD command warning has to do with how the game engine handles tthe PD command when on the surface. The boat starts to level off almost as soon as the deck is below the surface. This changes the angle of attack to a very shallow angle and makes the boat take forever to get to PD.

In real life the OOD would tell the planesmen how many degrees down bubble to use in getting to PD, or they'd just get down quick and then come to PD.

Since plane angle is beyond out control, I can't do anything about that.

399nkov- getting the bow up a little will require a huge amount of additional work which I'll tackle at a later date. Reason being is the only setting that affects that is the FR ratio which screws with LOTS of other things on the boat, the deck guns being the first I can think about.

Fc Raptor- Thanks for catching the PD issue. It's fixed in the new file. However, I can't duplicate the problem with the A key or clicking on the gauges. Do you have a depth gauge mod installed?

Great!

[AVGWarhawk]

Have the test depths been changed on all the boats?

[swdw]

SWDW,
I actually experienced this on my ship, (a DDG, "Ayatollah" class), in the 80s when I was in the USN. We also used "wet" fuel tanks that would fill with Seawater as the Fuel was used up to push the fuel up to the engine fuel intakes which were located at the top of the tanks. We would actually sit 6" to 12" lower in the water when we were low on fuel than when fully Fueled.

I hope this helps a little.

JimRat
Being on a nuke boat, fueling didn't cause this issue ;)

However, subs have several tanks used to "trim" the boat. WW2 boats had the trim tanks used for fore and aft trim, and auxilliary and variable ballast tanks that could be used to change the boats buoyancy and draft. We don't have access to control those in SH4.

So with that in mind, forget what I said earlier. What we should be looking for is the draft and surface profile that would be maintained while "hunting" in enemy territory.

I can tell you that I checked to see if changing the draft affected fuel consumption and it had no noticeable effects. Neither did changing the drag. Seems the fuel use equation is fairly simple with only a limited number of things affecting it (weather being one).

So picking a draft to give you a patrol profile will not change your range.

[399nkov]

I kinda figured that about the bow. More trouble than its worth. Actually she looks real good while underway, at least on my tube she does. I haven't installed the new update yet. On patrol, in calm waters off Palau, no contacts, trying to kill 72 hours, so if you need a test let me know.
I should be able to install the update while on patrol, don't you think?

[swdw]

I kinda figured that about the bow. More trouble than its worth. Actually she looks real good while underway, at least on my tube she does. I haven't installed the new update yet. On patrol, in calm waters off Palau, no contacts, trying to kill 72 hours, so if you need a test let me know.
I should be able to install the update while on patrol, don't you think?
I raised the balao in the 2nd release by about 6 inches after your comment. There were also problems with the PD in the config file that I fixed.

I've been testing these changes mid patrol with no CTD's or any other side effects. If you are patrolling with the Balao, I highly recommend getting the 2nd version.

BTW, because you're a diesel boat sailor, you've just become one of my "official consultants" on this mod ;)

I'm glad you like the pitching and roling motion. People have been wondering what "felt real" and I thought some of the pitch and roll effects were going too far. But since I was on boats with a teardrop hull that were lot's bigger than these boats, I wasn't sure if my impressions were correct (although the stock boat on rails was definitely too far the other direction).

As for the FR-ratio change. I will try it later, but I need to see if I can find everything it affects and how to remedy those alterations before going down that road. The S-boat, Gato, and Balao could all use that change. Wish the devs had given the boat 3 sections with adjustable mass values. Would make such a change very easy.

[swdw]

Have the test depths been changed on all the boats?

Yes, but some more than others. Got any info on S-boats surviving depth excursions?

[AVGWarhawk]

Have the test depths been changed on all the boats?

Yes, but some more than others. Got any info on S-boats surviving depth excursions?

Nothing on the S. I'm using the porpoise and test depth is 250 feet. The game has it at 390 feet. What was the reasoning behind that depth?

Ok, I went into the porpoise file. Looks like you set the subs to max depth(about 383 feet) but somewhere after 190 feet, she could implode. Am I correct in that assumption?

[Doolittle81]

How does this MOD relate to the "ROW Sub Reflections and Roll Pitch Mod vs_5"? Should this Mod be installed/enabled after/on top of "ROW...RollPitch" MOD? or does it replace "ROW...Rollpitch MOD?

[399nkov]

SWDW

:hmm: I'll try to help anyway I can.
That was 42 years back. Oldtimer I am. Tech questions, memory fair, actual living conditions, memory good. Memory coming back slowly.
The best way I found to test roll, would be to move to a lookout station and see how bad it was at that location or pan back a little.
The only time I can remember it being really bad, I guess 30 degrees or so, or when you were looking down at the water, at sub school training ops, North Atlantic. As a lookout trainee, in bad weather out of New London, you tried everything not to get sick let alone lookout for anything. U-boat sailors must have really had some bad moments in heavy seas.
Out of Key West we edged on a few hurricanes and that made it bad, the capt'n would head into the waves, which made her roll less, but then the bow pitch became really bad at times. Up and over a wave and thunder down with a loud shudder out of the old girl. (USS Seacat SS399) Waves would drench lookouts. Below decks, the poppet valves a poppin, Main Induction closing, engines sucking air out of the boat and just a note, props broached very few times that I remember in over two years.
Overall the boat didn't roll as much as one would think. They weren't top heavy. Just like nukes, most of her was underwater when on the surface.
If caught in very bad weather, we had to ride it out. Reason being, If submerged and had to surface a large wave could hit the sail just right and flip us. Peacetime precautions.

I better quit yak-ing, AVG will put me on lookout again.:yep:
Gotta go and try the new update.

All these great mods you guys are coming up with helps bring back those memories. Thank You All :up:

399nkov RM3SS

[swdw]

How does this MOD relate to the "ROW Sub Reflections and Roll Pitch Mod vs_5"? Should this Mod be installed/enabled after/on top of "ROW...RollPitch" MOD? or does it replace "ROW...Rollpitch MOD?
First post says
"It should work with any mod. If you use TM, RFB or ROW, make sure this is installed after all of these."

I just went back and highlighted that sentence as it was easy to overlook.

[swdw]

Nothing on the S. I'm using the porpoise and test depth is 250 feet. The game has it at 390 feet. What was the reasoning behind that depth?

Ok, I went into the porpoise file. Looks like you set the subs to max depth(about 383 feet) but somewhere after 190 feet, she could implode. Am I correct in that assumption?
Hmmm, S-boat cfg file shows 90 m or 295 ft, not 390 ft. May back that down a hair, but not sure

The reason for the increased depths is the devs used the rated test depth of the submarine which was a conservative value and the boats were capable of going deeper with no hull damage. Going below this number starts possible damage in the game, yet subs routinely went below that depth in wartime operation with impunity and suffered no damage. So, no the Porpoise shouldn't implode after 190 as that was test depth, not crush depth.

Several patrol reports show this to be a fact. On some boats, like the Gato and Balao, there's good documentation on this fact. Other types it's more sketchy.

So the idea is to use a number that seemd reasonable as actual crush depth numbers are near impossible to find. This was discussed a bunch in another thread that Ducimus started. LukeFF had made these changes for RFB, and these were adopted and tweaked slightly in this mod.

The numbers for the earlier classes will probably be tweaked some more- either up or down depending on what research can be dug up.

[AVGWarhawk]

Nothing on the S. I'm using the porpoise and test depth is 250 feet. The game has it at 390 feet. What was the reasoning behind that depth?

Ok, I went into the porpoise file. Looks like you set the subs to max depth(about 383 feet) but somewhere after 190 feet, she could implode. Am I correct in that assumption?
Hmmm, S-boat cfg file shows 90 m or 295 ft, not 390 ft. May back that down a hair, but not sure

The reason for the increased depths is the devs used the rated test depth of the submarine which was a conservative value and the boats were capable of going deeper with no hull damage. Going below this number starts possible damage in the game, yet subs routinely went below that depth in wartime operation with impunity and suffered no damage.

Several patrol reports show this to be a fact. On some boats, like the Gato and Balao, there's good documentation on this fact. Other types it's more sketchy.

So the idea is to use a number that seemd reasonable as actual crush depth numbers are near impossible to find. This was discussed a bunch in another thread that Ducimus started. LukeFF had made these changes for RFB, and these were adopted and tweaked slightly in this mod.

The numbers for the earlier classes will probably be tweaked some more- either up or down depending on what research can be dug up.

Sounds good. I was just picking your brain over the change of depth as shown on the interface. I'm good with this reasoning. They did go well beyond the rated safe (conservative) depths. Those that know the actual crush depth are not talking.

[399nkov]

I remember reading somewhere years back that one of our fleet boats survived a 1000ft dive. I assume no damage going down, just loss of control. Test depth was 450ft for a new balao. Some of the construction crew got to go along for the deep dive tests. For peacetime on balao class, getting older, 325ft was our limit. Anything past test depth could start a chain reaction. I'am sure many made it to 600ft and back. I would think the builders had the biggest say about that.

BTW SWDW, I patched in your update while on patrol. Balao is looking good. I don't know if you can get her any better. Nice work.

A test I tried: On surface, 12kts went to crash dive, timer at first klaxton sound, PD in 35 seconds. I did pass PD up a tad.

Also AVGWARHAWK you are right about using the Dive key vice the PD key. Normal dive gets you down quicker, then at about 50ft set depth to 60ft. or hit PD key. You should pass PD a tad then back up to PD. It wasn't uncommon to pass our intended depth, usually PD. It took a lot of practice to get good on the dive planes and hold her were ordered.

[AVGWarhawk]

Also AVGWARHAWK you are right about using the Dive key vice the PD key. Normal dive gets you down quicker, then at about 50ft set depth to 60ft. or hit PD key. You should pass PD a tad then back up to PD. It wasn't uncommon to pass our intended depth, usually PD. It took a lot of practice to get good on the dive planes and hold her were ordered.

After Swdw explained it to me all was good. Using the P key for PD only the planes were driving the boat down. The tanks were not filling with water. So, I used the D key for normal dive as instructed by Swdw and all went as planned.:up: Once she was down, the I hit the P key for the depth I needed.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Also AVGWARHAWK you are right about using the Dive key vice the PD key. Normal dive gets you down quicker, then at about 50ft set depth to 60ft. or hit PD key. You should pass PD a tad then back up to PD. It wasn't uncommon to pass our intended depth, usually PD. It took a lot of practice to get good on the dive planes and hold her were ordered.
After Swdw explained it to me all was good. Using the P key for PD only the planes were driving the boat down. The tanks were not filling with water. So, I used the D key for normal dive as instructed by Swdw and all went as planned.:up: Once she was down, the I hit the P key for the depth I needed.

Nice, I was wondering about this :yep::up:


RDP

[swdw]

A test I tried: On surface, 12kts went to crash dive, timer at first klaxton sound, PD in 35 seconds. I did pass PD up a tad.

Also AVGWARHAWK you are right about using the Dive key vice the PD key. Normal dive gets you down quicker, then at about 50ft set depth to 60ft. or hit PD key. You should pass PD a tad then back up to PD. It wasn't uncommon to pass our intended depth, usually PD. It took a lot of practice to get good on the dive planes and hold her were ordered.
Thanks for explaining how the real boats did it for those who have not been there. Even nuke boats do the same thing. The idea is it's more important to get under quickly and then shoot for PD, than to try and reach it spot on from the surface. That's why I completely ignored the time using the PD key. To me, that key is there for when you're under the surface.

As far as dive times, go, what you described in getting to PD in 35 sec instead of just submerged, by using a faster speed than std bell, is something for people to keep in mind. Tests for the mod are done at a standard bell based on the assumption the boat is cruising on patrol at a speed for good fuel economy.

You can get under quicker if you ring up a higher bell. You have more prop effect on the stern planes and more force from speed generated on both sets of planes. This is the biggest difference between crash dive and normal dive in the game.

Just wish there had been an option in the game for riding the vents. You'd lose fuel economy, but you could dive even faster.

[Torps]

I know you mentioned changing the fr ratio. Well it works nicely when your on the surface however when you dive its a whole other story. Dave and I messed with this and it bit us in the bud, unless you can counter act the change in the front to rear ratio somehow you will have your hands full getting the sub to function.


Im sure you remember this fun post.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=126450

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I have a big favor to ask. The IT dept here at work banned all remote proxy sites so as a favor could you have the file sent to Down Below site? That's the only place I could get modded files.

http://www.downbelow.net/sh4.htm

[swdw]

I have a big favor to ask. The IT dept here at work banned all remote proxy sites so as a favor could you have the file sent to Down Below site? That's the only place I could get modded files.

http://www.downbelow.net/sh4.htm

Check your PM :)

[caspofungin]

sounds like a great mod -- can't wait to get a chance to try it.

a few quick questions -- you implied earlier that the dive planes actually have an impact on diving and aren't just cosmetic. did the bug that caused the forward dive planes to rig out only partially ever get solved? if not, won't that have an impact on dive times?

also, can you give us details about any alterations in turn rate?

thanks.

[399nkov]

Torps,

I made a deep dive test, Balao, while watching the plainsmen (just like the COB would do) from the control room. I ordered the boat to 425ft and watched the dive all the way down from there. It was a 5kt dive, leveled off slow as it should. I didn't time it, sorry, but it took a while. Jumped outside view ever so often to check the angle of the boat. Seem about right, 10 or 15 degrees down. The B/S dive indicators were pegged at 30 degrees. So the actual angle and the indicator angle were not matched.
That is the only thing I saw that was out of order. I believe a 30dg would be like hitting the dive key and when passing 40ft the boat drops like a rock.
To bad the bubble gages don't work.

Since things are slow in my patrol zone I will try some tests on turns. Maybe some fishing boats will show up to test the gun.
So far I've been able to move the mod in and out of the sim while on patrol. I installed it last.

[swdw]

Designated turn rate for fleet boats is 1 deg per second at 8 knots and 0.45 deg per second at 4 knots.

This is a generic figure from section 310 of the Fleet Type Submarine manual.

In game, the S- boat turns at about 1.5 deg/sec at 8 knots., the gato and Balao ar close to the numbers given, and some of the earlier fleet boats are just a hair faster than the Gato.

I set the 8 knot turn time, but haven't had time to check or adjust the 4 knot speed yet.

Yeah 399nkov, some of the gauges are just dressing or may be off because of the way they were modeled. not being able to call for a specific bubble made me have to look for a work around that would give an ascent/descent performance that was a usable compromise.

I know what you mean Torps, the FR ratio is a pain in the keester. That's why i'm saving it for later. I tried playing with it a couple months ago and found out it was a lot more work than I wanted to try and tackle at that time. Plus, I didn't know as much about the game then either so decided to wait.

[Sockeye]

Here's an oddity for ya. It's fixed now, so no worries, but I thought you'd get a kick out of it.

I install the package using mod enabler, and go into the game to check it out. Looks good on the surface, now lets see how she dives! Okay, down she goes: make your depth two-double-oh feet. At about 140 feet I belay that, and we head up to 60 feet for a look around. Hey, wait a minute... we pass 60 feet and end up at 45 or so. Hmmm... I give the depth order again, and no change.

I take a look in external and see that the boat's level and the planes are on full dive, but we're not budging from 45 feet. So, it looks like the diving officer put too much air in the ballast. Must be a new guy in charge of the diving station; it's a good thing we're just on workups! Another order to head us back to 200, but we level off at about 140 or so, level with the planes on full dive. It seemed that no matter what depth I ordered, that we'd level off about twenty-percent above the mark.

So, I think something must not be quite right, and de-install. A couple days go by and I decide to give 'er one more shot, and enable the package again. And hey! Everything's better now; actually, everything's fine!

__________

I wanted to ask, too, if there was any chance that you would modify the Tench class in the new Run Silent, Run Deep campaign when you get around to it. She looks out of place running that high in the water now.

:up:

[399nkov]

Sockeye, that is really odd. Glad its working for you now. You will like this mod.

SWDW, I made a few tests myself trying to use the 8kt turn rate.

Balao, almost calm seas, 180 degree turns.

1. Started 14kts, full stbd, 2:10. Steady 8kts.
2. Started 12kts, 30deg port, 2:30. Steady 8kts.
3. Started 10kts, 19deg stbd, 3:40. Steady 8kts.
4. Started 10kts, full port, 2:55. Turn speed avg. 5.5kts.

I doubt you can get anything from this test. I didn't do the math but #4 seems to be very close to the 8kt, 1deg range.

The turn rate for the Balao isn't a problem in my opinion. Depends on the conditions.

Cheers...:)...Be Safe...:up:

[linerkiller]

I have tried this mod yesterday....it works perfectly!:D
Just one thing: Watching old photos of American subs, we can easily notice the line of floodholes at the bow barely above the waterline...With this mod on,this line of floodholes is now situated just UNDER the waterline!
looks at these pics (taken from the holy bible(uboat.net))
http://uboat.net/allies/warships/photos/am/ss_uss_albacore_ss218.jpg

http://uboat.net/allies/warships/photos/am/ss_uss_cero_ss225.jpg

http://uboat.net/allies/warships/photos/am/ss_uss_haddock.jpg

As you can see, the stern profile is now perfect, but the bow needs just a little heightening:up:

[swdw]

I have tried this mod yesterday....it works perfectly!:D
Just one thing: Watching old photos of American subs, we can easily notice the line of floodholes at the bow barely above the waterline...With this mod on,this line of floodholes is now situated just UNDER the waterline!

As you can see, the stern profile is now perfect, but the bow needs just a little heightening:up:
Yes this is true. The problem is that the boat does not sit like it's suposed to in the water, so a compromise level will need to be reached as the stern sits higher than it should. This will take some experimentamber, these are "roughed in" as stated, which means there's room for adjusting.

If the FR_ratio problem can be fixed OR if the origin of the model can be moved w/o screwing everything up, we might be able to get it right.

[Torps]

I have tried this mod yesterday....it works perfectly!:D
Just one thing: Watching old photos of American subs, we can easily notice the line of floodholes at the bow barely above the waterline...With this mod on,this line of floodholes is now situated just UNDER the waterline!

As you can see, the stern profile is now perfect, but the bow needs just a little heightening:up:

Yes this is true. The problem is that the boat does not sit like it's suposed to in the water, so a compromise level will need to be reached as the stern sits higher than it should. This will take some experimentation.

Torps brought this up, and we'll be playing with the draft some more. Just remeber, these are "roughed in" as stated, which means theres room for adjusting.

If the FR_ratio problem can be fixed OR if the origin of the model can be moved w/o screwing everything up, we might be able to get it right.

I sent UBI the link to the thread I created about the sub ride height and the the stern sticking out of the water. Last thing I was told, was this issue was forwarded to the appropriate R&D department. So it might be in the addon???

[hyperion2206]

This idea is great and yet I had to deinstall it for a really good reason:cry::
The sub now sits so low in the water that the fuel consumption is too great. I left Midway in January 1944 for the Bashi channel and although I only had made 1/3 of the voyage I only had enough fuel to go another 7000 miles, before I installed this mod I would get this message after I had completed my objectives.

[JSF]

I noticed the same thing....Thought it was because I mishandled the boat during transit.

Just started new career so now I have to detour thru Ausieland for refit on fuel to make it back to Pearl. So the positives with this mod so far, IMHO 1) much quicker dive times 35secs on 2 bells, and 2) the sub has taken on a more realistic profile on the surface....Eye Candy, which is important to me.

Cons seem to be slightly higher fuel consumption. Kind of adds a newer challenge in a game that is becoming routine. Over all I like this mod in conjunction with RSRD and will continue working with it. I'm sure the fuel coefficient will be resolved in time.

This is still a good piece of work!

[swdw]

Depends on the boat- the Gato in ROW and TM was given a >15,000 mile range. Other boats had longer legs than they were supposed to also. Using the Gato as an example, we can't find anything over 11,000 listed for the Gato. So the reduced range may not be due to fuel consumption. If you get 11,000 miles at 10 knots (can vary with weather), you get the actual max range for the boat. Tests run after the changes averaged 11K miles. I'll make some more checks to make sure this is still the case.

However, that being said, I asked Skwasjer a couple of days ago and learned the entry for the variable in the game is in miles, not nautical miles, so we'll be applying the 1.15 multiplier to the entered ranges as it seems most ranges are not clear as to whether they are in miles or nautical miles. This means the Gato will be raised to 12650.

People are welcome to take this mod and change the ranges. Changes like this were the reason I added the caveat in the first post that because this mod is part of RFB, there may be some things people don't like in it. But changes can be made. After the RFB release, I'll work on 2 versions of this mod for those used to the longer ranges.

[sneekyzeke]

I'd like to re-iterate something i discovered & posted about last summer; it still works. If you want max mileage, manually set your speed to 9 7/8ths knots (click just to the right of 10 knots). You will get something like 14,000 NM out of the Gato, for example. Is it a cheat? Uhhh, who cares? :D Sneeky

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Dude I played with this installed and WOW! Things look far better now. I noticed a drop of 1 knot during 2/3 speed (from 7knots to 6 knots) probably due to the lower profile (drag) of the boat relative to the water line. Excellent work!:up:

[MarkShot]

FYI

Bug Report:

This breaks the "Dive to Max Depth" functionality of of TM 1.7.6. This functionality is implemented by a repurposing of the Snorkel Depth command found in the sub.cfg file on the snorkel depth line.

It looks like the value use is a percentage value of max depth. So, the snorkel depth for TM looks to be set for the Gato at 210%. I suppose you mod could be made to work if you start first with the CFG files from TM.

[MarkShot]

Here is the change that was made:

[Properties]
PeriscopeDepth=18.3;meters
SnorkelDepth=210;meters <==============
CrashDepth=40;meters
MaxDepth=100;meters
SurfaceDepth=4.7752;meters
TorpLaunchMaxDepth=30;meters
StormConditions=7,0.1;max wind speed [m/s], max rain intensity [0,1]

[M. Sarsfield]

I just installed this today and I like what I see so far. I especially like the estimated range at current speed fix.

[Nuc]

we can't find anything over 11,000 listed for the Gato.

swdw: can you tell if listed ranges assumed the use of the fuel ballast tanks? I don't know if they were part of the original design and would be included in the specs or if they were a war time conversion that increased the range beyond the original spec. The fact that you had to send men on deck and under the superstructure to install blank flanges makes me suspect the latter.

[AlmightyTallest]

I really like this mod, I installed in the middle of my campaign with the USS Skate (Balao class) I found no problems with the ships range when heading out to the patrol area at 2/3. I also found that on calm seas my ship looks exactly like those photos with the floodholes just above the waterline at very slow speed.

This mod is definately a must have for me :D

[LukeFF]

Little hint here for everyone: use Ahead Standard when cruising to and from your patrol zone. With the current test build of RFB, with the Gato, I average 11,300 nautical miles max range when cruising at this bell (set to 10 knots in the mod), which is exactly what the sources say the Gato performed to. I can get to and from Midway out to the southeastern coast of Japan and be able to complete a 40-50 day patrol with no problems.

Cruising at ahead 2/3rds or Ahead Full will waste both fuel and time.

[M. Sarsfield]

I confirm what Luke says. I ran the engines at 2/3, took a range reading, and then did the same for standard, and full, allowing some time for the boat to get up to speed at each setting. Std. is definitely the optimum speed/range ratio for the Gato.

[linerkiller]

I really like this mod, I installed in the middle of my campaign with the USS Skate (Balao class) I found no problems with the ships range when heading out to the patrol area at 2/3. I also found that on calm seas my ship looks exactly like those photos with the floodholes just above the waterline at very slow speed.

This mod is definately a must have for me :D
I have tried the mod only during my career with a Gar...could you post some screens of your sub with the mod on? Maybe there is a problem only for the tambor hull:shifty: .....

[swdw]

Tambor and Gar range is 11,000 miles at 10 knots The std bell for them is 51% or 10.2 knots. Best fuel consumption is at 10 kn even.

[AVGWarhawk]

You should try the S class. I think I can make England on one tank:D . Well, maybe not but fuel consumption is good if you use ahead standard.

[AlmightyTallest]

linerkiller, will run tonight to see if I can get some photos, the Balao is matching perfectly with your photos though. Ran into glass calm seas in the Sea of Japan, should have taken screenshots last night when I noticed the effect.


Also, I have installed TMaru's Tench class submarine, is there any way I can adjust her to sit in the water exactly like the Balao does with this mod?

[hyperion2206]

I don't know how you get 11,000 miles with a Gato at 10 kts. At 10 kts I get a range of about 9,000 miles. To get a range of 11,000 I've to manually set the speed to 9 kts.:hmm:
Wish me luck that I don't run out of gas.;)

[LukeFF]

I don't know how you get 11,000 miles with a Gato at 10 kts. At 10 kts I get a range of about 9,000 miles. To get a range of 11,000 I've to manually set the speed to 9 kts.:hmm:
I do it every time I take the Gato out on patrol. ;) The trick was that we (the RFB team) had to multiply every sub's max range by 1.15 because the in-game files read the maximum mileage in statue - not nautical - miles. I just completed a 50-day patrol from Midway to northwest of the Marianas and back (April 17-June 7, 1942) like this by cruising to the patrol zone at 10 knots, and then I calculated I had enough fuel to get back to Midway at 12 knots. I think I pulled in to port with about 5-7% fuel left. Heck, I could have stayed out on station even longer, but I prefer to patrol my assigned area at ahead 2/3rds (7 knots in RFB).

You just gotta do the math and realize how far you can extend your fuel before having to head back to base. Do some thinking about how to best approach your patrol assignment, and you shouldn't have any problems with running out of fuel.

Just be prepared for some very short patrols in the S Class, though, as I'm sure AVGWarhawk will tell you... :D

[399nkov]

Ref: Post #30

Did the RFB team ever decide on a actual crush depth figure for the boats? If not you can ping off 400ft test depth and 925ft crush depth on the Balao and Tench Class (thick skins) undamaged. The other boats (thin skins) could use the same ratio working from their test depth. I haven't found any info on thin skins boats yet.

[Doolittle81]

It's getting confusing... Is all the advice on speed settings (for example, Standard as best for fuel conservation rather than Ahead 2/3), or specific speeds in knots, based upon RFB?? I use only stock plus RSRDC...no RFB, No TM.

[399nkov]

Hello Doolittle81; When I first played sh4 stock I remembered reading somewhere on the forums that a specific speed of 10.5kts, on long hauls, would give the best range. I started using 10.5kts and it proved to be best for me. In really bad weather the speed would drop one or two knots.

I started using RSRDC, all ROW files, NSM and things remained about the same.

When I started using TM the speeds at different bells dropped a little and 9.5kts seemed the best.

I haven't tried RFB yet, waiting for the latest release. I'm sure it will be right on the real deal.

Hope that helps and not to confusing.

[Doolittle81]

Hello Doolittle81; When I first played sh4 stock I remembered reading somewhere on the forums that a specific speed of 10.5kts, on long hauls, would give the best range. I started using 10.5kts and it proved to be best for me. In really bad weather the speed would drop one or two knots.

I started using RSRDC, all ROW files, NSM and things remained about the same.


Thanks for the response. I also use RSRDC, all ROW, and NSM...so I'll follow your advice and cruise at 10.5Knots.

[swdw]

Ref: Post #30

Did the RFB team ever decide on a actual crush depth figure for the boats? If not you can ping off 400ft test depth and 925ft crush depth on the Balao and Tench Class (thick skins) undamaged. The other boats (thin skins) could use the same ratio working from their test depth. I haven't found any info on thin skins boats yet.
We're playing with this, but a number around 1.66 to 1.75 times greater than test depth is a fairly reasonable number because of the known safety margins built into calculating the test depth.

[swdw]

It's getting confusing... Is all the advice on speed settings (for example, Standard as best for fuel conservation rather than Ahead 2/3), or specific speeds in knots, based upon RFB?? I use only stock plus RSRDC...no RFB, No TM.
The best people to ask are the ones sending the mod out (on this one, LukeFF or me), others are just guessing unless they've poked into the range numbers in the corresponding *.sim file.

In this mod, a std bell will give you close to the ideal cruising speed for range. Vary it by up to one knot less if you want to see if you pick up any more range. Any more and you'll lose range. Any speed over a standard bell in this mod will definitely cause you to lose range.

It's the reason for the comment on the first post about the fact the std bell speeds were adjusted and why.

[silent killer]

:D Thanks SWDW for the mod and to those that tested the mod . Will try it out

[caspofungin]

@339nkov

in "thunder below" fluckey states test depth for gato-class was 312' and 438' for thick-skinned boats.

2 questions for swdw or anyone in the know -- i apologize as they don't have much to do with surface profiles etc. --
does your boat take damage when below test depth but above crush depth?

should balao-class boats have more hitpoints/higher armour reflecting their ability to take more of a depth-charge pounding?

[399nkov]

@339nkov

in "thunder below" fluckey states test depth for gato-class was 312' and 438' for thick-skinned boats.

I'm sure the depths were rounded off. Key here is, the enemy didn't know our newer subs could operate that deep.

[swdw]

does your boat take damage when below test depth but above crush depth?

should balao-class boats have more hitpoints/higher armour reflecting their ability to take more of a depth-charge pounding?
Question 1- no, this has to do with the way the game is coded. And unless there's something wrong with the hull, it shouldn't. There was a considerable safety margin built into the test depth numbers.

Question 2- they do

On a side note, I found that the boats have a setting in the zone file for crush depth. So will start playing with that number and see what happens between it and the test depth setting.

The Balao has a crush depth rating of 787 ft in the zone file. Depending on what the results are, there may be more changes in this area.

[LukeFF]

On a side note, I found that the boats have a setting in the zone file for crush depth. So will start playing with that number and see what happens between it and the test depth setting.

The Balao has a crush depth rating of 787 ft in the zone file. Depending on what the results are, there may be more changes in this area.
Looking at those files, the hit points for each sub probably need to be cut in half. They already are in my RFB work, but that's only for the internal compartments, in the UPC files. These zone files cover the hit points for the hull. Just something you may want to look at when you decide to tinker with these files.

[Jib01]

In this upgrade there was no modification to the Narwhal boats. Could you do that one also and post it somewhere ?

Thanks
Jib01
:smug: :smug: :smug:

[swdw]

Once the RFB release is out and I'm back to playing with this some more, I'll add the Narwhal and Tench

[castorp345]

a number around 1.66 to 1.75 times greater than test depth is a fairly reasonable number
i personally use a basic script randomizer to plug in a randomized value (+10% -5%) of the base design depth ((test*3)/2)...
further, to remove the "suicide prevention" depth restriction, i find it good practice to ramp-up the MaxDepth value in the cfgs to something well beyond where the given boat would ever be without imploding...
;)

i also use similar scripts to add randomization to the armor level, hit point, and crash speed values.

'just hate "knowing" what the actual edge of the envelope is...
:D

[DaveP63]

Can I still try this on 1.5?

Thanks for your hard work :up:

[swdw]

I've used it iunder 1.5 with no problems so far.

[AVGWarhawk]

I have used it as well. Works just fine.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Nice work. Used it last night. The S-42 takes a long time to submerge using the P key. But it looks a whole lot better than tsunami-type waves.:up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Nice work. Used it last night. The S-42 takes a long time to submerge using the P key. But it looks a whole lot better than tsunami-type waves.:up:

Use the D key for standard dive with the S class. Using the P key takes like 4 minutes to dive. Using D key she goes down no problem.

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

Good to know, AVG, thanks. Yes it did take that long. In fact I have the Improved SD Radar on a S-42 and after detection of a plane I pressed the P key by the time I reached 40 feet below I got jumped.:-?

[AVGWarhawk]

Keep in mind this is the beta. When RFB comes out it will be corrected.

[swdw]

See this post as it explains why using the P key causes a slow dive.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=773397&postcount=16

This happens with all boats. Sadly, there is no fix for this as it's part of the game engine, not the sub sim file.

[LukeFF]

Note the dive times for the S boats will be changed significantly from what they are now. S boats were in reality very slow divers (average of 75 seconds for a normal dive for the S-18 and S-42 classes), so the differences between them and the fleet boats will become even more accentuated.

[Paajtor]

Keep in mind this is the beta. When RFB comes out it will be corrected.
Does this also mean, that there is a chanche, that the 2 Uboats will be addressed in this mod?

[swdw]

Does this also mean, that there is a chanche, that the 2 Uboats will be addressed in this mod?
Planning on it

[Sub146]

Thanks for this , this is fast becoming my fav game thanks to all these great mods that you guys keep making.:arrgh!:

i got my first proper kill last night in career mode on a jap medium hauler , talk about exciting , stalking him for hours and lining up for the perfect shot , nothing can compare.:up:

he was alone so that made it better for me knowing i did not have to worrie about a dd pinging me for hours after :ping:

[swdw]

As a side note,

I did some fooling aronud with getting spotted and it seems I can sneak in closer at night with this mod than with the stock settings:hmm:

I was wondering if this seems to hold true for others using this, or if it's just wishful thinking.

[399nkov]

Hmmm...since I'm sneaky person at heart, I think I'll try that out.

SWDW; I installed Pacific Environment for Row over the latest 1.4 release and it cleaned up the flying boat issue very well with the 15m wind and waves.

[CCIP]

swdw: I have not entirely tried it, but there is a chance that this affects the detectable surface area. I still have not had a definite answer yet as to whether the game accounts for draft when calculating exposed surface areas.

Either way, this is an essential mod! I have tweaked around with it more to my taste (lowered centre of gravity, increased dive time a little), and it is just a must-have in any setup. :up:

[Charlie901]

Is this Mod still in the "Beta" stages and is it useable for 1.5?

Thanks!

[tonschk]

Hi,i download and installed the diverate mod ( surface draft and dive time mod ) , but when i try to enable with JSGME , i got this warning "Folder "Data" has already been added by the "Install_PE2" mod." i have only enabled reflection of water mod , is this logic ?, thank you for your help and answer

[swdw]

If you istalled ALL of PE2, there is a slightly updated version of this mod in PE2. So this mod is not needed.

I need to mention this in the first post. Thanks for asking this.

So you know, in a few days there will be a completely updated version of this mod that includes the u-boats.

[tonschk]

If you istalled ALL of PE2, there is a slightly updated version of this mod in PE2. So this mod is not needed.

I need to mention this in the first post. Thanks for asking this.

So you know, in a few days there will be a completely updated version of this mod that includes the u-boats.

Hi, thank you for your answer, i installed and enabled PE2 , how i can know if also dive rate mod is working or not ? , thank you

[swdw]

Look at how the boats sit on the surface. If they look like the pictures in the first post of this thread, then the mod is active.

If you need help installing the version with PE2, kriller can help if you post in the PE2 thread.

[tonschk]

Hello, can you tell me please if ROW and pacific environment PE2 is the same mod? , thank you

[ElephantMemory]

Does this mod also work with the U-boats in the add on?

[swdw]

I've been away for a couple months because of other stuff. I'll try to kick one out the door with the u-boat changes that were included in RFB. It may be a couple of weeks though.

[ElephantMemory]

That would be awesome if you could get something out at some point. The U-boat just seems to ride to high in the water right now, and the dive times seem all screwed up to me.

[kriller2]

I have put the subs deeper in the water (than PE3) and made it work for PE4 and the roll pitch mod, so if you can wait a week or two this will be a part of the new environment mod :up:

[Laffertytig]

just curious, are the changes in this mod included in rfb?

[Mush Martin]

just curious, are the changes in this mod included in rfb?

Theres a question I would like to know the answer to too.

[swdw]

Yes, they were made FOR rfb but were released as a separate mod also because so many people wanted the subs to sit better in the water.

I'll have to get together with kriller and see the mods he's doing to pitch roll & draft. The damage model, sensors and many other features in the boats in RFB are being rewritten and you'll lose all those if you use the upcoming boat changes in PE4.

Kriller and I have shared in the past, so I'll ask his permission and see what we want to implement from his changes and see if some of the additional dive rate changes we've made are something he wants to use in PE4. We won't be able to give him the boat files wholesale from RFB because that will cause an imbalance in the game for those not using RFB.

We like sharing with him, but we want to make sure he gets the changes that won't mess things up for the non rfb people.

[Laffertytig]

so basically this mod is included with rfb, it was mainly for for non rfb players!

[swdw]

so basically this mod is included with rfb, it was mainly for for non rfb players! Yes, but be aware.

399nkov just did some tests, and if when he installed PE3 after RFB, he lost the physics mods to the boats. If you install RFB after PE3, you lose the bubble work by Kapitan Zur see on a couple of the boats.

I was unaware of this until today. With PE4 coming out, we'll work with Kriller to make sure everything works together.

kriller is very conscientious about his work and making sure the end user benefits, which is why it's a pleasure to work with him when things like this are spotted.

[Webster]

bump

[Bosje]

bump indeed, so what's the idea for those who have PE4 and RFB? dive rates should be accurate as is? and for PE4 + RFB + OM?
or is this all in development and will it become part of PE4 + the new RFB? I'm confused now

reason for asking is a current 1.5 atlantic campaign where the german subs handle very differently than what I've come to consider as 'real' from my SH3 GWXperience.
the german subs handle just like the fleet boats and they both don't conform to what I thought I knew. (but then, I wasn't there so I know nothing)

this is, therefore, based on my expectations rather than on any factual knowledge, but crashdive in 10 seconds, down to 50 meters after 30 seconds and back up to periscope depth after another 30 seconds... feels slightly 'wrong'

[LukeFF]

bump indeed, so what's the idea for those who have PE4 and RFB? dive rates should be accurate as is? and for PE4 + RFB + OM?
or is this all in development and will it become part of PE4 + the new RFB? I'm confused now

All of this work is more or less integrated into the next RFB release.