[REQ] SH4 Air Mod

[AkbarGulag]

As many of you have felt, the aircraft traffic in SH4 stock is fairly insane. After looking about there are some great MOD's that change or alter the way the games aircraft layers and the machines themselves work. Unfortunately all these MOD's also alter a lot more and they all seem to remove map contact updates. If you are like me and don't want to spend 4-5 hours looking for one ship, then you will know these MOD's are not for everyone.

Has anyone considered the possibility of a MOD that is compatable with ROW and 1.4 that could enhance and improve the air dimension?

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I use the Airstrike Mod and it helped in reducing the night attacks and number of spawning aircraft. At least that is what I noticed. What I don't like is the plane's flight characteristics. Torpedo-bombers should fly below 200m but they act otherwise releasing their torps too close to targets. Betty bombers even from 2000m will dive bomb and smack right into the water instead of level-bombing. I know this is a Naval sim but aircraft played an integral part in the Pacific war, particularly the carrier-bourne aircraft.

[denis_469]

As many of you have felt, the aircraft traffic in SH4 stock is fairly insane. After looking about there are some great MOD's that change or alter the way the games aircraft layers and the machines themselves work. Unfortunately all these MOD's also alter a lot more and they all seem to remove map contact updates. If you are like me and don't want to spend 4-5 hours looking for one ship, then you will know these MOD's are not for everyone.

Has anyone considered the possibility of a MOD that is compatable with ROW and 1.4 that could enhance and improve the air dimension?

Why not simple place air units from SH3 in it case without reworks?

[donut]

Originally posted by Tater.

Did a few quick tests.

I used an H6K armed with DCs.

It dropped on me at 80ft. Note these were scripted planes.

I was attacked by a few Bettys, but none bombed me. Looks like they didn't have DCs, but they sprayed the water with MG fire.

Looks like we'll want a few new bombs---even make a 30kg and 60kg for the zeke. What I was really thinking was tweaking the air-dropped DC. The stock one has a sink rate of 5m/s, and a det depth of 5m +-5m.

In RL, they had 2 different DC det depths. Make 2 identical bombs, one to each depth, and put 1 of each on the planes.

Quote:
Q. When making an attack on a submarine, were pilots allowed to drop depth charges after the submarine disappeared below the surface?
A. Yes.


Q. How many seconds after the submarine disappeared from sight were they allowed to attack?
A. Within 30 seconds.


Q. What size of depth bombs did your aircraft use?
A. 250 kg.


Q. Did you use any other airborne weapon besides depth bombs?
A. We had nothing besides bombs. The bomb was a standard 250 kg bomb with a modified flat nose attachment and a special tail, a nose and tail fuse was used.


Q. What depth setting did you use?
A. We used 25 and 45 meters. If the submarine was discovered near a convoy at periscope depth and immediately submerged, we dropped the 25 meter; if time passed and gave the submarine time to go to a lower depth, we would drop the 45 meter bomb.


Q. Did you drop more than one depth bomb at a time?
A. Generally we dropped only one, but sometimes two.


Q. When you dropped two, what spacing was used?
A. None, the bombs were dropped simultaneously. Only experienced pilots were allowed to drop all bombs at once.


Q. At what distance from the submarine was it necessary to explode the depth charge in order to sink the submarine?
A. With the 250 kg bomb, it had to hit within 13 meters of the submarine in order to sink it. The smaller planes equipped with 60 kg bombs had to make a direct hit on the submarine to sink it.



So 25m and 45m were the 2 real depth settings. I'd set the depth to that, no or little error. The burst charge on a standard 250kg makes it about as strong as the type 2 with a 162kg warhead, maybe more. In my current DC mod that's ~50% more powerful than the stock DC you are used to. I can make 2 versions, one for stock, 1 in line with my DC mod.

I'll get on this.

My gut says we should BOP clone the maritime patrol planes, then give their basic load DECs in addition to the other loads, then sprinkle a few per appropriate air base.

tater
I'm thinking, visual sensing range of aircraft needs to be reduced:yep:

[AkbarGulag]

Thanks for finding that for us Donut. 45m :O now thats the sort of plane heat im talking about... and to kill within 13m, thats a real bad day for a submariner.

As far as sprinkling these improved sub killers at airbases. Can anything be done to address the frequency of air attacks. One thing I noticed on mission, was that a Kate spotted me but took no action, then it was shortly followed by other planes in the vicinity that actually attacked. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't you take all the gear you needed rather than just spot for someone else ^^ , this is where I think Tater has the right idea.

I see Ducimus has done a fair bit of work on planes in his TM mod, but am loathe to request he unstitch it as i'm sure I know what the answer is :lol:

Regardless of that, a dedicated air layer MOD might be a far better idea. If anyone needs me to do monotonous data entry then PM me.

[donut]

Sailor man
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/ranks/sailorman.jpg
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 46
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon1.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by donut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurolas
Ducimus you have a severe case of the condition known as "C.T.D" :rotfl:




Long may it continue... even if it does contain the "Evil Ducimus Planes" hehehe






I have spoke of this often,even had thought you Dicimus,had considered my request. Although having not gotten a response, I keep having an epiphany
(your word)
with this feature.
Last patrol,agent insertion to the inland sea,North thru Kii sudio.coming back out

10 ten planes converged on my location at P/D at 2AM,pitch dark,no moon,& bombed ! All she wrote:damn: :dead: 10 Planes in the same area at 2AM would run into each-other in the dark. This is the two patrols your dead wish that drove me off from SHIII,& it really has nothing to do with valor,or R/L ethic. Why can I not get thru to you ? Darkness is when Subs recharge on the surface,because AC can't see US @ PD Hey man just add a nerf to your FAQ. PLEASE yours,Donut


Donut...


The Path that you seek is Data/Config/Air Strike. In the Air Strike CFG. file scroll down till you see Night Modifier=0.2. This is the setting for night air attacks. Change it to Night Modifier=0.0, then save.
IRL the Japanese had no night interdiction capability until the very last months of the war, and even at that it was not very good.
Simply put you should never be attacked by an IJN or IJAAC aircraft at night while at sea.
__________________
" And the sea shall grant each man new hope, as sleep brings dreams of home." Christopher Columbus

[pythos]

July 42, Aleutians. EVERY FREAKIN HALF HOUR, contact with an air unit!!!!

This I do not think is anywhere near acurate.

Every 5 hours, yea that I could see.

Problem is, I went to SH4 editor to look at the air layer...and have no idea which part controls the interval an aircraft is sent out.

anyone have ideas on how to correct this lunacy?

[tater]

The entire paradigm of aircraft in SH4 is pretty screwy, frankly.

If I can figure out how to generate search patterns with a script... I'd put all the planes in by hand.

tater

[U96]

Hello there!

It might be the wrong thread to post this, but besides a rework of the aircraft layers, i would very much like to see the planes using their machine guns and cannons in an attack as they do in GWX 2.0 - if possible.

[RickC Sniper]

July 42, Aleutians. EVERY FREAKIN HALF HOUR, contact with an air unit!!!!

This I do not think is anywhere near acurate.

Every 5 hours, yea that I could see.

Problem is, I went to SH4 editor to look at the air layer...and have no idea which part controls the interval an aircraft is sent out.

anyone have ideas on how to correct this lunacy?


The file you want is data\land

Then look for folders ending in JP. For instance: LAB_NormalAirBaseJP
Inside, open the cfg file and lower the number of squadrons. There are folders for small, normal, and large Jap bases..


Gulag..........are you saying reducing these affects the number of map contact updates?

[M. Sarsfield]

I think in the SHIII vs. SHIV post someone mentioned that theh SHIV engine differs from SHIII in that the ships generate in port and terminate in another port. Whereas SHIII just spawns them as needed. So, I could see how changing a land-based squadron cfg file might affect how often the harbors generate ships, too.

[AkbarGulag]

Gulag..........are you saying reducing these affects the number of map contact updates?

Hey Rickc :p Are you reffering to Donuts post about night attacks with that question? As far as reducing the number of air patrols goes, I think there is more to be done than just reduce them. The whole air layer is fairly robotic and unrealistic.

Donut is offering to do some work on the munitions the planes carry. Tater seems to have some ideas on the way the planes can be added. I'm picking this 'fix' could be some time in the making. It already conflicts with some work others have done to the aircraft layers, like Ducimus's TM. That said, it shows there is already some knowledge on this, with this thread merely voicing what some of the guys here have clearly been thinking about for a while.

The reason I bring this up now, is because the mods available have pretty much addressed all the original concerns people had about SH4... the air layer is the only really BAD thing left in the game.

Fortunately, since all the modders here are realism junkies, two people could be working on seperate mods for this and be more in line with eachother than they may realise :lol:

[donut]

AkbarGulag
Donut is offering to do some work on the munitions the planes carry.

I must decline any credit,this is Taters work,& is already in T_M_. I just republish realitive/learned Info to aid other Officers to enjoy game life. The Subsim radio room forum is the officers club for SHIV when in-port,& inessence our game home. We love the reality of this fine,dedicated peroid of history,& feel strongly that valor means being in the know to make correct decisions for our men,our boat,our country. My own modding skill is comming along slowly,& I desire a teacher. I do learn from all of you.
I am not a realisum junkie,but know I would not have survived the war ,but for Gods will,& I love the sea,& the hunt.:sunny: Always wanted to see New Zealand:OUT

[AkbarGulag]

AkbarGulag
Donut is offering to do some work on the munitions the planes carry.
I must decline any credit,this is Taters work,& is already in T_M_.
Ahh, I found it in the credits... of TM.

"Tater
- improved campaign mod.
- Taihosan Maru Fix
- Type13 Radar fix
- DD Yagomo
- Misc ship eqp corrections
- IJN Type 13 radar fix.
- supercool guy
- Guru of all that is IJN. If he says its true, i beleive him."

From memory the last Layer I used from Tater was beta version 0.6. And the stuff in TM already looks promising. I better go read some other threads before further comment :hmm: Cheers, Donut.

[RickC Sniper]

No, reducing the number of squadrons just reduces the overall frequency of air encounters.

You need Donut's solution above to eliminate the night attacks.


I don't think the planes need an entire revamping, I just think they are too frequent.

[AkbarGulag]

I don't think the planes need an entire revamping, I just think they are too frequent.

After using RSRD (awesome btw) I would agree that lowering the frequency is a huge improvement. Thats said, TM incorporates some interesting changes. RSRD (lurker) has even gone so far as to make changes to the allied planes.

You are on the right track, reduce frequency/tweak bases. But I also see one other possibility that could work hand in hand, that being the hard changes to the craft bombs etc.. themselves. Both of these could be seperate and/or overlap.

The main concern is of some of the current mods, moving to far in different directions, but essentialy with the same goals. Surely a shared resource would be beneficial to both the current mods in progress, standalone stock users and yet to be thought of mods.

That said, at this stage some concrete structure needs to be built before I think any of the current modders see it as a realistic prospect rather than a pipe dream.

[donut]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/icon1.gif How to fruit
frequency=useing SH4 Editor to redo scripted layer/#of AC types at basses. Because AI will use all assigned.
Limiting spotting range= S3D to alter AI Visual Sensers.dat,in Data/Library
Which means there is two ways to skin this animual. I think ! A year or so back,I distroyed my install by merging scripted layers improperly while working on the Kiel Canal,SH3.
Now I have S3D running,but opened AIV_S_.dat,don't know exactly what I am looking at:doh: Comments:huh: /help !
__________________Re-post from pm to keep you all in the loop,An effort will be attemped.

[bigboywooly]

I think in the SHIII vs. SHIV post someone mentioned that theh SHIV engine differs from SHIII in that the ships generate in port and terminate in another port. Whereas SHIII just spawns them as needed. So, I could see how changing a land-based squadron cfg file might affect how often the harbors generate ships, too.

Ships spawn where the group starts
Start the group in port and thats where it starts
Same for both 3 and 4

However that has nothing to do with aircraft
Not spent too much time delving into the SH4 files but have noticed the airbase cfg have an awfull lot of aircraft per squadron
The more aircraft a squadron has in the cfg the more that are up in the air so the higher chance you will meet them
Lowering the Night Modifier will also help reduce night time air attacks

But from what I read and see maybe more is required

[AkbarGulag]

Thanks for the insights Wooly. I can't see why ship and aircraft generation would be overtly different when it comes to groups. You gave me some info I needed. Cheers mate :up:

[STEED]

I use the Airstrike Mod and it helped in reducing the night attacks and number of spawning aircraft. At least that is what I noticed.

Same here. :yep:

I don't see so many of them now. :D

[The General]

The code below is from the airstrike cfg file and I believe it is supposed to allow for the spawning of a friendly (aswell as enemy) airstrikes on an enemy taskforce or convoy after you have radioed in spotting one. You will see certain criteria must be met; like you must be within 1500 miles of a friendly airbase and that it must be during daylight and so forth. However for some reason it doesn't seem to work in SH4. The only time I have ever seen a friendly aircraft is when the odd one flies over Pearl Harbour. Surely this is a flaw in the game and can be easily corrected by one of you Mod-masters?

Maximum Aircraft Range=1500
Poor Airbase Modifier=0.5
Novice Airbase Modifier=0.7
Competent Airbase Modifier=0.8
Veteran Airbase Modifier=0.9
Elite Airbase Modifier=1
Night Modifier=0.2
Default Air Strike Probability=20
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Radio Messages Sent=20
Friendly Air Strike Probability Increase on Contact Report Sent=70
Enemy Air Strike Probability Increase on Player Detection=90
Atenuation Factor=10
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=25

[AkbarGulag]

Thanks for that General :up:

This MOD is still on the burner. Plenty of resources gathered, with a reasonably clear picture of what has to be done. Lots of mundane stuff to do, but the mundane stuff isn't the challenge, it's the S3D side of things.

Our team of two (including myself :lol:) have almost everything we need. After writing up a few more 'How-to' resource files, we may be able to start making an itinery of all the jobs required. Once we have a clear picture and are able to spell out the exact events we need to put into action, there will be a post here. Most likely looking for 1-2 other people, with at least one person with skill in S3D being required, or even someone we can use as a resource to explain how to use S3D to do the tasks we have planned.

If/When we get to that stage, a WIP will be put in place in these forums.

EDIT: The General, are you saying some of this file doesn't work? or all of it? Because I have not found any other files that could dictate any of these events. Nothing that is easily readable at least...

Also, two lines i'm curious on, "Atenuation Factor" and "Logic Steps Between Air Sessions".

[Digital_Trucker]

The comments on those variables explain a little and confuse a lot:rotfl: These are from the stock file. Comparing paraB's reduced airstrike file against stock might give an idea of how the variables work.

Total confusion:
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session

Modifies "Time" between airstrikes:
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=10 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)


When you're ready to add team members, I'd be glad to do what I can. I have a fair amount of experience with S3D (and getting more every day:sunny: ).

[AkbarGulag]

Total confusion:
Atenuation Factor=10 ;[>0] decrease from an increased probability to default one on each air session

I see, this is the reset, for what all the parameters above this one are based on.


Modifies "Time" between airstrikes:
Logic Steps Between Air Sessions=10 ;[>0] steps between air fighting sessions, 10*Logic Interval(90sec)

And this stops the engine from calculating strikes over and over and over every second... that makes sense :p


When you're ready to add team members, I'd be glad to do what I can. I have a fair amount of experience with S3D (and getting more every day:sunny: ).

We appreciate the offer DT :)

I would like to say, we can start in X number of days, but clarity of purpose is a must before we cast off and expectations of a timetable, lead to a level of despondency if not met IMO.

So many ideas :doh:

[Digital_Trucker]

I would like to say, we can start in X number of days, but clarity of purpose is a must before we cast off and expectations of a timetable, lead to a level of despondency if not met IMO.

So many ideas :doh:

I know exactly what you mean:know: Kinda like jumping in the car to go somewhere, but not knowing where you're going. Gets kind of depressing when someone asks "Are we there yet?" and not knowing how to answer:damn:

[AkbarGulag]

We are probably closer and more organised than we realise :|\\ I wonder if something like Ventrilo would speed up the transfer of ideas on start-up. At least until everyone knows their tasks.

[Digital_Trucker]

That or Teamspeak or even an IM/chat would probably be beneficial. The toughest part of that would be timing (depending on the locations of the parties involved).:hmm:

If the timing is too difficult to overcome, then, perhaps an email distribution list would be helpful (especially for passing small amounts of data back and forth).

[CaptainHaplo]

Planes have been an issue for a good while - not only because of the number and visual acuity they possess - but also because of HOW they spawn.

If you hit a ship or ships, they ALL call in for air support if your first hit isnt an immediate kill. What this does is a number of things. First off, for single ship attacks you have a decent chance of not getting an overflight. However, if your hitting a convoy - even at night running "stock" numbers of .2 for an airstrike - thats a 20 percent chance the call will get heeded right? Wrong - thats a 20% chance for EACH ship in the group. Hit a group that has say 6 merchants and 4 destroyers - and your about guaranteed that at least one of those requests for air cover is going to get answered.

Second problem is that if a aircraft is launched, it heads EXACTLY to where you are. This is ok for the first bird - its going to fly out to the source of the attack, go past a little ways, and fly home if it doesnt see anything. But when subsequent aircraft are launched - they now are tasked to fly to where you presently are - even if you have moved from the last known location. No way these guys could know where you are - yet their spawn course is going to take them right over your head almost every time. That ruins realism!

Droping the number of aircraft and changing airstrike probabilities is a help, as is decreasing the sensor ability on the aircraft.

If we really wanted to get "historical" accuracy (without being able to code in search patterns), the way to do so is make the "random" airstrike probability very low, then put confirmed contact airstrikes reasonably higher. Night attacks are pretty much not going to happen unless its an important convoy, but there doesnt seem to be a way to assign aircraft to cover a convoy as yet.

When it comes to sensor acuity, visibility at night really should be heavily dependant on other factors, but there really isnt a way to define "Night stats" vs "Day Stats" as darkness only creates a singular "multiplier" of the base ability.
Only thing that could be done is to adjust that multiplier, but that will imbalance shipping at night, or make em able to see you OTH during the day.

If any need hel, I offer my own limited ability as well.

[AkbarGulag]

The point you make about not being able to define if it is night/day has had me pickled also. Basically theres nothing we can do.... unless somehow you could link the game clock to another airstrike variable, but heck, if you could do that, then you could probably link sensors in the same way.. I have no idea how this would be done or even if it's possible. That sounds like codeing to me :nope:

Cheers for the offer Haplo :up:

[AkbarGulag]

CaptainHaplo just gave me a flash of inspiration...

If the game has an 'Airstrike Night Modifier', then SH4 has some way to link the game clock to the config and control files....

Can any of you MOD geniuses out there, explain how the game engine pulls that clock resource... and if it would be possible to plug other .cfg files into it?

If this was possible... the mind boggles... If anyone can enlighten me or can see the potential, please PM me. Especially the other main MODS in progress, you guys would benefit massively from this as well.. we all could. I will explain more to anyone that can help me.

Regards,

Akbar