Expanding campaign to include spanish civil war?

[bgeorgalas]

Hi to all, just seen the "alternate history" post and it came in my mind that there were actually 2 german submarines to fight on the spanish civil war....(see http://uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=59 )

Since i am not familiar with sh3 modding i would like to ask the modders outhere if it would be possible to make an sh3 carreer start on 1936....do a couple of patrols untill the spanish civil war ends and warp to 1939 retaining the boat, crew and ofcource experience earned.....

I understand that one would first do some searching about the countries involved / routes followed by merchants / "allied" and "enemy" units and then redesign the mission files.....do you consider it feasibile?

[JScones]

...do a couple of patrols untill the spanish civil war ends...
The civil war lasted upwards three years. That's more than a couple of patrols. ;)

From a realism perspective, it could be done. One would just need to fill 1937 to 1939 with "stuff" like training patrols, or very extended periods of R&R, LOL! A potential yawn factor of 10 though.

But were one to stretch reality, then there's increased scope. In fact, I was thinking about this only yesterday when reading GE's thread. My thinking was that rather than withdraw U-33 and U-34 in Dec 1936, the Germans decide to increase the size of 2 Flotilla presence and send more boats, perhaps as a result of the Republicans not blaming a mine for the sinking of C-3, but blaming the Germans outright (first deviation from reality). New careers could start in Jan 1939 with Germany well involved (a good compromise which avoids long periods of "nothing" to fill in time) with something "dreamt up" to fill the 5 month gap between the end of the Civil War and beginning of the World War (perhaps some second deviation from reality).

I see the events in Spain as having good potential for creating an "alternate reality". I mean, let's suppose that Hitler agreed to Franco's (real life) demands in 1940 (well, why even 1940, no reason why it couldn't have been agreed to earlier - it is make believe after all) - Spain and all its colonies would then join the Axis.

The Spanish would subsequently invade Portugal with German military support, bringing Portugal and all its colonies in as an Ally.

Meanwhile, the Germans would then have clear passage to Gibraltar. Operation Felix would be put into effect much earlier (perhaps after Portugal falls). Through sheer attrition, Gibraltar would fall to the Axis after 3 months of heavy fighting.

In addition to Spain and later Portugal, Spanish Morocco, Spanish West Africa and Spanish Guinea all become potential places to locate u-boat bases.

Imagination could then apply the impact of this scenario across the whole war. Would Spain leave the Axis with Italy in 1943?

DISCLAIMER: I'm making this up simply for the purpose of outlining a possible "alternate reality" story. No political commentary or inference is intended.

[Sirkam]

Mmm...
The Spanish civil war start from 1936 to 1939, and i dont know if a few germans subs were operational (maybe Type II).
It was a war between the Republic and the nacionalists, the nacionalist (leading by Franco) won the war (they had the new BF-190 fighters and Panzers II/III and the Republic had I-16 Polikarpov fighters and T-26 tanks....but in less quantity) and created a fascist regimen that sympathetic with the Nazi regimen.
Hitler and Franco had a reunion with clear intentions: allying Spain with the Axis. Franco wants Gibraltar and more possesions to enter Spain to the Axis powers(Spain was very worn for the Civil War) and, for granted, enter in the Second World War. Hitler can't accept the demands and Spain remained neutral (but Franco Help Germany (secretly) sending the "Legion Condor" and Mölders pilots to the East front (Russia), only for few time):know: .

It would be interesting see an "alternate history campaign" for Spain in the Second World War, because it's my country.

[JScones]

Mmm...
The Spanish civil war start from 1936 to 1939, and i dont know if a few germans subs were operational (maybe Type II).
U-33 and U-34 were VIIA's. They arrived in Nov 1936 and were gone by Dec 1936, after sinking one Republican submarine.

Apparently other U-boats appeared in ports along the Spanish coast from time-to-time (like U-35). IIRC I read somewhere that there were a few in Ibiza at the same time that Deutschland was attacked by Republican aircraft, in 1937. And didn't a U-boat torpedo a Brit warship by mistake (played down by Chamberlain)?

[Sirkam]

Mmm...
The Spanish civil war start from 1936 to 1939, and i dont know if a few germans subs were operational (maybe Type II).
U-33 and U-34 were VIIA's. They arrived in Nov 1936 and were gone by Dec 1936, after sinking one Republican submarine.

Apparently other U-boats appeared in ports along the Spanish coast from time-to-time (like U-35). IIRC I read somewhere that there were a few in Ibiza at the same time that Deutschland was attacked by Republican aircraft, in 1937. And didn't a U-boat torpedo a Brit warship by mistake (played down by Chamberlain)?

Interesting, Type VII subs docked at Spain and sank a Republican sub, but they stayed for a little time, i dont know that fact :D . Thanks for the information JScones.

[gimpy117]

why use alt reality, just add in the histroical part
and training missions would a let you get experiance and B. let you explore woithout the chance of getitng killed just think an elite crew in 39'

[bgeorgalas]

why use alt reality, just add in the histroical part
and training missions would a let you get experiance and B. let you explore woithout the chance of getitng killed just think an elite crew in 39'

Excatly my thoughts!!!! :)

[onelifecrisis]

My exceptional mathematical abilities have enabled me to deduce that the chances of subsim members agreeing on an alternative history that they all like is 0.00000000000000%

(hell, most of us can't agree on what the real history was! :lol:)

[melnibonian]

My exceptional mathematical abilities have enabled me to deduce that the chances of subsim members agreeing on an alternative history that they all like is 0.00000000000000%

(hell, most of us can't agree on what the real history was! :lol:)
I agree with your findings but my model based on numerical and analytical solutions of stochastic differential equations indicate that the actual probability is 0.000000000000000001% and not 0.00000000000000%. This is probably due to the fact that some people posting (or reading) in this thread "might" consider such an event concerning "reality versions" ;) :p :rotfl: :rotfl:

OLC this time the post is not going anywhere ;) :oops:

[bgeorgalas]

[quote=onelifecrisis]

OLC this time the post is not going anywhere ;) :oops:

Let me take you out of the dead-end by refrasing my question:

Would it be possible to make ans sh3 carreer start on 1936 with only VIIa type uboat's available?
If so what files would have to change?

Does anyone with more experience than me in modding (i guess everyone else in this forum) see any possible problems and/or incombatibilities with GWX that could make the project not feasible?

Forgive me if i get this wrong (repeat that i have never modded anything) but my idea would be the following (all this to be done after an accurate history research):
1. Start from the GWX 2.0 files Retaining the ports find in 1939 as neutral and changing a bit ports in spain to "friendly" and "enemy"
2. add the possibility of starting a carreer on 1936 with type Viia boat's
3. Add ships that are going from/ to Spain
4. Modify the ship's nationality to match either "friendly" or "enemy"
5. In 1939 revert everything back to GWX 2 standard settings

I do not know if this could be done but since in GWX 2 i have seen cargo ships carrying tanks / airplanes on the deck, perhaps it would be possible to make ships of the same nationality (soviet ships for example) neutral when carying passengers etc. and enemy when on the deck are tanks / airplanes.... This way one would be forced to think twice before firing a torpedo (and identify visually the target).....
Furthermore we could augment the torpedo failures to even greater level to depict what was actually happening those years...
any other ideas / suggestions would be mostly welcome!

[melnibonian]

bgeorgalas the part of the post you quates has nothing to do with the theme of the thread and the suggestions you make. It is just for OLC. I do not intent and I never make fun of other people's ideas and to tell you the truth I'm partially in favour of your idea.

I hope this clears any missunerstandings

[bgeorgalas]

ooops! Sorry!!!! my bad (nn native english speaker)! :( I apologize for the trouble caused.....by the way, what does OLC means anyway?

[onelifecrisis]

Allow me to explain: mel posted his reply, then deleted it. While he was deleting it, I was quoting it. After posting my quote I saw the original comment was deleted, deleted my reply, and PM'd a lol to mel, who reinstated his post.

Hence the comment "this time the post isn't going anywhere"

Sorry for going OT...

Edit: OLC stands for onelifecrisis (me)

[bgeorgalas]

No need to worry, i am not offended or anything......

Back to the "project".....: what do you all really think of it?

[melnibonian]

No need to worry, i am not offended or anything......

Back to the "project".....: what do you all really think of it?
I think it's a good idea and it is possible to do it but you need someone who will set the campaign layers and fill the data\date folders with all the relative files. People like this do venture this forum so if they're interested in doing it it will be an interesting project.

[NealT]

Do I detect a GWX 2.1.a in the works?:know:

[joea]

No need to worry, i am not offended or anything......

Back to the "project".....: what do you all really think of it? I think it's a good idea and it is possible to do it but you need someone who will set the campaign layers and fill the data\date folders with all the relative files. People like this do venture this forum so if they're interested in doing it it will be an interesting project.

Yes it is interesting, it's just that subs didn't do very much during the real Spanish Civil War so I wonder what they would do. :hmm: Good luck with it though, always happy to see people making stuff. :up:

[Hartmann]

No need to worry, i am not offended or anything......

Back to the "project".....: what do you all really think of it? I think it's a good idea and it is possible to do it but you need someone who will set the campaign layers and fill the data\date folders with all the relative files. People like this do venture this forum so if they're interested in doing it it will be an interesting project.

Yes it is interesting, it's just that subs didn't do very much during the real Spanish Civil War so I wonder what they would do. :hmm: Good luck with it though, always happy to see people making stuff. :up:

The republican navy in the spanish war have a good fleet but was very short in commanders and skilled officers, this cause a very limited use for the navy, usually confined in ports or in some special operations, while the supplys arrive in foreign vessels like russian ships or through the french border.

In the other hand, national franco navy, have only some ships and battleships but they have the professional officers and sailors , making the use a lot more efficient.

for example, during the gibraltar blocade, the republican navy was unable to stop the flow of the african army to spain, later this was decisive because they were a skilled and professional force with the oposition only of the poor trained CNT and other republican millitias.

also the help of condor legion, and italian aviation mekes the difference

[joea]

Thanks Hartmann, so it seems the Nationalist Navy already had the Republican navy bottled up so any u-boats in reality would have been superfluous. I do know the pocket battleship Deutschland was bombed, and Admiral Scheer bombarded Almería in retaliation.

[Klaus_Doldinger]

(they had the new BF-190 fighters and Panzers II/III and the Republic had I-16 Polikarpov fighters and T-26 tanks....but in less quantity)

No one Panzer II/III saw action in Spain during the Civil War. Only Panzer I and italian tankettes were sent to Nationalists. Me-109 fighters were sent from 1937 onwards.

The T-26 was present in Spain in respectable quantities, being a far more advanced tank that any thing that the nationalists could oppose him.

[G.K.]

Just found this topic ( I had a simmilar idea and i want to create a new topic...:rotfl: )

Wouldn't it be possible to made spanish operations as ,,advanced tutorial", whitch would not influence the war career from 1939 on (or if possible...:hmm:). Talking just about 3-5 missions to learn advanced tactics of attacking, avoiding enemy counterattacks and air attacks ( mission with Deutschland bombing??? ).

VII A could be modelled, it is quite a simmilar with VII B, just with shorter range and less aft torps. Or VII B Could be used.

I'm Highly inexperienced with modding, so just sending ,,batch of ideas". I could also work on the missions...