Idea: Alternate history campaign

[GlobalExplorer]

Lets face it, searching for convoys in the Atlantic is getting kind of old. Having played this game for years now, I am still thinking about what could be done to get myself interested again.

Has anybody considered an alternate history mod? I mean it does not have to be a total conversion, a bit more fantasy concerning the historic tactics would be enough.

The germans might not have captured the french ports, but have bases in Iceland / Africa / South America. The situation could change during the war. At a certain period there could be the opportunity to attack the home fleet in its bases, with reduced patrols in their ports. At another point the Allies are on the offense and are blocking the german ports with destroyers, and even attack with their fleet. Wouldnt it be cool if the patrol would start with the breakout from your base? Possibly you would see battles going on, or you could cross the path of an Allied submarine that lies in ambush. And at the end of the patrol you have to sneak back in.

I just wanted to post this little idea of mine, SHIII modding has become a bit too technical these days, it's more about details and not about the imagination.

[GlobalExplorer]

Why shouldnt it be possible? Most of these things could simply be done within the campaign layers.

I really like your idea of having the XXI as a workhorse. Seriously, how many people ever got to use it in a campaign?

[onelifecrisis]

Lets face it, searching for convoys in the Atlantic is getting kind of old.

Blasphemy!

[iambecomelife]

I actually started work on such a mod more than a year ago. Then I realized how much work would be involved (including work outside of my expertise) and decided to do ship modding instead...

[onelifecrisis]

Interesting idea, though. Sounds like a lot of work. :hmm:

Edit: cross posted!

[Dowly]

Wouldnt it be cool if the patrol would start with the breakout from your base?

Actually, this is exactly what the few remaining uboats at French ports had to do in the late war. Biscay was quite crowded with allied destroyers to pick off any submarines to leave the uboat bases.

[Hilis Hatki]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D



Been thinking about this for some time.

Once the mods have been forged out, the foundation and glue of all these great mods will be in::|\\

Campaign_LND.mis
Campaign_RND.mis
Campaign_SCR.mis

[GlobalExplorer]

Interesting idea, though. Sounds like a lot of work.

We will have to find somebody who will do it :hmm:

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I love that idea. :up:

[bigboywooly]

Interesting idea, though. Sounds like a lot of work.

We will have to find somebody who will do it :hmm:

:rotfl:
Now now GE
You should know the workings of the campaign files by now
Crack on

Oh dont forget the flotilla cfg to change start bases and assign patrol grids
Interesting idea

[Redbrow]

(note Wave Skipper: my first title was Redbrow until something messed that account up)
GlobalExplorer (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=218637) - Its been done - I made V-Mod in early 2006 - where Germany won the war. A future nazi time traveler returned to Germany in the weeks before the Brits escaped from Dunkirk. He shows Hitler proof why this will lead to the end of the 3rd Reich. Hitler decides to throw everything in to preventing the British army escaping - this causes lots of changes in history and blah, blah, blah (the story was just a back drop excuse to change everything. In V-Mod (Victory mod) U-boat bases were established all over the world by 1943 - such as a secret base in Chile, and another in the Axis Aleutian Base in Alaska (since Japan takes parts of the mainland in Alaska).

Britain falls before the end of 1940:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/broadgate40.jpg
German Zugkraftwagen of 2nd Motorized Infantry at Broadgate, London.


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/hitlerusa1.jpg
Hitler visits the USA after Britain's fall

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/hitlerdc.jpg
Hitler visits FDR and throws FDR's war plans for a total loop. Japan, thanks to the time traveler's information decides to delay their attack on Pearl until Dec. 14th 1941, thus catching all three aircraft carriers and sinking them. The Japanese make huge gains beyond what they did in the original timeline - thanks to having all the Allied codes given to them by the time traveler.

But by June 42 the USA is finally at war with Germany anyway.

U-boat bases will be built in the Azores (makes the trip to America a breeze), Iceland, Brazil, Chile, and Alaska - not to mention the Horn of Africa, and finally Iran.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/waveskip2.jpg

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/fallschirmjager.jpg
In late 1940, using special data from the time traveler, the SS use their new fallschirmjager units to take care of the Tommy pilots their own way.

Note:
A radio intercept from an unknown British army unit on the 20th adds to our understanding of the event:
“Repeat – we have retaken the airfield. Have captured two wounded Germans who say they are SS-Fallschirmjäger. All the spitfires are beyond repair. The bloody Jerries slaughtered all of our pilots here before we could retake the base! What are our orders now sir?”

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/stendekbase2.jpg

Hidden U-boat Base of the 3rd SS Flotilla Wiking in Chile, using a fake Swedish mining complex. 'The Swedes love to mine their own business'

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/stendekgate.jpg

Underwater gate to the secret base in Chile

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/congo.jpg
The Congo gives new meaning to the name Afrika Korps. But after the Germans secure most of Africa and take Cape Town - things go bad for them. The Ruskies launch counter attacks from their roosts in the Urals and retake Moscow. The Americans are able to show down the German bases in the Pacific. Parts of Great Britain revolt and throw off the Nazi occupiers. Hitler is shot in the face by Rommel during a heated argument about why Hitler ordered Rommel' army to allow itself to be surrounded and destroyed.



Donitz takes over the Reich per Hitler's last will and testament. He cleans up the Nazi party and sets Germany on a course near the one the Kaiser would have followed. The new Obergruppenfuhrer of the SS Navy, Otto Skorzeny (who in the real time line tried to design piloted V-1s piggy backed on planes to their attack locations - never was realized) designs in this timeline a Unterseeboot Mistel Projekt



http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/mistelprojekt.jpg
A way to use captured allied merchants with false flags to move U-boats great distances.


In the end Donitz gives up trying to make peace with FDR and the Brit government - now in Canada - and so he orders Operation Gotterdammerung - nuclear attacks.



1945/5/2: Message from Reichspräsident Donitz to his beloved U-boat crews and officers, I wanted you to be the first to hear of this. Today we pile-drive America into a pit of utter surrender. Last August, Reichszeitstrahlmarschall Göring revealed to me an astounding secret, one that I now share with you. We have all passed this way before in another line of time, in which we were utterly defeated! But Nazi scientists survived that war to carry on with astounding research into time travel. Thus, in the year 2033 they sent a man with amazing computing devices, back through time to early May, 1940. Because of that event, we are at this very moment launching 326 of our newer rockets so as to obliterate the American Eastern Seaboard. Heil Hitler!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/v4dcitybusters.jpg




But the truth was this moving of U-boat bases - while fun an all - was a little like trying to have sex with your lover all over the house - in the end it changed nothing - same old lover - or in this case - same old by SH3 AI.



What bothered me was how while some wanted to play this - most did not because really they are reenactors - like the guys who dress up Civil War and play battle on old battlefields. They are not trying to play a game - they are after pretending to be real U-boat captains in the real war. ANd they go crazy everytime they think a new pixel has been added to the game that somehow seems to make the game more true to life. That's ok. I understand that. Wrong community. Of course in my Mod I made most Brit ships as GENERIC that could be used by several nations (but at the time I did not see too many 3d models and SH4 models had not even come out yet!)


I posted this picture to this forum last month:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/easterisland.jpg
And no one even seemed to notice it all. So I decided that alternate reality was a dead issue on Subsim and I removed V-mod stuff off the net.



The truth is - my theory of the mod was to force players to get their points by sinking tons of warships. The reason? The Merchants have next to no AI and are like fish swimming in a bucket waiting for you to shoot them with a shotgun!
So I wanted a new game theory: http://www.angelfire.com/crazy/redbrow12/vmod_theory.htm



But even that did not work, cause once you know the warship AI by heart the warships are like fish in a bucket too. Until the hardcoded AI is released for us to play with, all this new skin, new map, new dials, new deck - just is like adding a fancy saddle to a milk-wagon horse.

Still I am trying to find a new way to do something along this line...of helping out the game AI...

[difool2]

Well you get my vote for something like this, at the very least. :|\\

[Reece]

First was Redbrow - somehow was removed from Subsim around late 2006 - became Wave Skipper - but now going back to Redbrow - my original on this forum. IIRC you were and still are playing in a very touchy area, and was removed, I think posting pictures of Hitler winning the war may upset a few people, I downloaded this over a year ago but never played it, just doesn't seem right.:-? I mean, just imagine everyone discussing how hitler won the war, SS, "how great this is" and what happened to Winston Churchill etc etc etc, on a public forum this wouldn't go down well I fear. This type of fantasy world might be ok in many years to come but I doubt that it would be accepted even now after 65 years! Maybe if you changed the story line not to include Hitler, SS, etc, atleast on the forum. Correct me if I'm wrong.:oops:
Seriously, I would like to see SH3 set back in ww1 days with old Kieser Bill!!:yep:

[Redbrow]

Fact is that was not the reason at all. I forgot my password and the email I had used was no longer mine - I had cancelled it and so trying to get my password seemed impossible. I didn not want to come back as Redbrow2.

But you illustrate what I hate around here. First I am a Zionist for your informnation you little judge. My brother's side of my family are Jews. Second I am an american and I resent people trying to remove our right to free thought and opinions. 3rd, I see on this forum all kinds of Nazi signs, swaskitkas in personal art and signatures. So you must be a hypocrite unless you also attack these other people - or is it that if someoone is your buddy they can display swastikas?

Hitler winning the war? I had Hitler SHOT IN THE FACE BY ROMMEL you goon. I had Donitz (or do you hate him too?) made president of Germany.

You know I get tired of all the PERSONAL ATTACKS this forum has. Up until recently I stayed out of the silly political bs argued around here - until Dec. when on one of my postings I saw two of you goons going after each other on one of my threads. As I recall I mentioned that my orignial thread was to find game answers and not for pimple faced buys to bite and devour one another. The net is full of dis-ers, a generation even caught pushing teens to suicide by forums, chat and so forth. I think the computer screen must drive many people toward aggresion and meaness. Or maybe just a lot of losers find their only life outlet in this stupid medium. People say things to one another that their CHICKEN little hearts would fear to utter to a real man's face.

Hitler is 65+ years DEAD. He is ancient history. He is like Caesar, or Herod. Ancient history. Soooo last century. Get over him. I stated in my accounts about making the silly story what was what. I mentioned that THE ONLY WAY I COULD IMAGINE creating a win for Germany was for a time traveler to return with god-like knowledge of world events - cause Hitler and his team of inefficient Nazi stooges would have been too stupid to win even if they had tried other plans. As for the Waffen SS, had you read my stuff you would have realized it was not made up of blond aryans in my mod. But in fact if you knew much about the Waffen SS you would recall that by the last year of the war many, many navy and german air force men were assinged into the SS because of man power shortages. I bet you are ignorant that some of hitler's admirals, generals and officers were Jews. In fact I'd bet you have a Hollywood view of the Nazis in general. Most of the Nazi dogmas were not invented by them - they were old German. SOme of Hitler's worst statements were just quotes he made of old German leaders, such as Carl von Clausewitz. The more I studied about the Nazis the more I realized they invented almost nothing - it was just old red-neck German dogmas. Even the idea of taking land away from Russia for German farmers was around before Hitler was a man. Hitler was a PRODUCT of Prussian Germany. The Nazi party got its start and funding from the Navy and German Army (and Henry Ford). American money poured into Hitler's Germany after his rise to power.

But in my mod I mentioned that Europeans who do not live in a totally free society should delete the SS mod-section and that is why it was stored in another file.

Is it my name Redbrow? Truth is that is another reason I took the name Wave Skipper - some racists here thought red hair was a perfect proof of me being a Nazi - even though my real hair is black and I am South American Indian.

I get tired of little self righteous judges.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Fact is that was not the reason at all. I forgot my password and the email I had used was no longer mine - I had cancelled it and so trying to get my password seemed impossible. I didn not want to come back as Redbrow2.

But you illustrate what I hate around here. First I am a Zionist for your informnation you little judge. My brother's side of my family are Jews. Second I am an american and I resent people trying to remove our right to free thought and opinions. 3rd, I see on this forum all kinds of Nazi signs, swaskitkas in personal art and signatures. So you must be a hypocrite unless you also attack these other people - or is it that if someoone is your buddy they can display swastikas?

Hitler winning the war? I had Hitler SHOT IN THE FACE BY ROMMEL you goon. I had Donitz (or do you hate him too?) made president of Germany.

You know I get tired of all the PERSONAL ATTACKS this forum has. Up until recently I stayed out of the silly political bs argued around here - until Dec. when on one of my postings I saw two of you goons going after each other on one of my threads. As I recall I mentioned that my orignial thread was to find game answers and not for pimple faced buys to bite and devour one another. The net is full of dis-ers, a generation even caught pushing teens to suicide by forums, chat and so forth. I think the computer screen must drive many people toward aggresion and meaness. Or maybe just a lot of losers find their only life outlet in this stupid medium. People say things to one another that their CHICKEN little hearts would fear to utter to a real man's face.

Hitler is 65+ years DEAD. He is ancient history. He is like Caesar, or Herod. Ancient history. Soooo last century. Get over him. I stated in my accounts about making the silly story what was what. I mentioned that THE ONLY WAY I COULD IMAGINE creating a win for Germany was for a time traveler to return with god-like knowledge of world events - cause Hitler and his team of inefficient Nazi stooges would have been too stupid to win even if they had tried other plans. As for the Waffen SS, had you read my stuff you would have realized it was not made up of blond aryans in my mod. But in fact if you knew much about the Waffen SS you would recall that by the last year of the war many, many navy and german air force men were assinged into the SS because of man power shortages. I bet you are ignorant that some of hitler's admirals, generals and officers were Jews. In fact I'd bet you have a Hollywood view of the Nazis in general. Most of the Nazi dogmas were not invented by them - they were old German. SOme of Hitler's worst statements were just quotes he made of old German leaders, such as Carl von Clausewitz. The more I studied about the Nazis the more I realized they invented almost nothing - it was just old red-neck German dogmas. Even the idea of taking land away from Russia for German farmers was around before Hitler was a man. Hitler was a PRODUCT of Prussian Germany. The Nazi party got its start and funding from the Navy and German Army (and Henry Ford). American money poured into Hitler's Germany after his rise to power.

But in my mod I mentioned that Europeans who do not live in a totally free society should delete the SS mod-section and that is why it was stored in another file.

Is it my name Redbrow? Truth is that is another reason I took the name Wave Skipper - some racists here thought red hair was a perfect proof of me being a Nazi - even though my real hair is black and I am South American Indian.

I get tired of little self righteous judges.










Ok, lets have a little civility here please. I don't think we need to get into name calling: goons, little judge, etc.

As well, if we are going to get into discussing history, then take that discussion over to the General Topics Section.

So for now this thread will remain open, but please keep it respectful, thanks in advance.


RDP

[Reece]

@ Redbrow, don't blow a gasket, for crying out loud, I know for a fact that a lot of people don't like seeing Hitlers face plastered on the screen, and the very thought of the Third Reich winning the war (Nazi's) repulses a lot of people, I never once made any nasty remark to you or judged you, just voiced an opinion as to the story you delivered, may upset some people! And if the reason you have come back under a new name is purely because you forgot your password then I appolagize for that!:yep: Maybe my post didn't come across as intended, I did say "Correct me if I'm wrong", I probably should have PM'd you to be careful, with your story line, instead of posting. No personal harm was intended, but please understand that although 65 years have passed some still get upset very easily!:oops:

[Redbrow]

I blew a gasket. I took some flak for V-Mod. To me Hitler was a major duff.
I think the SS just seemed like a better fit for the SH3 dolls.

below - the typical officer's cap on mission:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/realcap.jpg

below - the officers caps in SH3:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/primcap.jpg

below - the typical look of the SS cap:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/typicalSScap.jpg

below - the reason for the typical SS cap remaining prim and proper - Himmler, described by those who knew him as a meticulous little school master:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/meticulousschoolmaster.jpg

below - only the SS would wear caps shaped like this on U-boat patrol:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/noncrushedcap.jpg

I suppose I should have removed the beards? :huh:

MY POINT: sure on the Russian Front some SS soldiers wore sloppy outfits after days in combat and deep winter. One SS guy was warned that his outfit was so shabby he might be shot as a Russian partisan by mistake. But generally the SS was expected to keep their uniforms 'Himmler SOP'. And so my point here - who in their right mind would do a 4 week U-boat patrol with a officer's cap looking like SH3 caps? Only Himmler would order such a thing.

[Reece]

who in their right mind would do a 4 week U-boat patrol with a officer's cap looking like SH3 caps? Only Himmler would order such a thing. :rotfl:
Your right, but it looks cool!:yep: BTW, I have huge respect for the U-Boats & their crew, even they didn't want to know the politics, just fought for their country as even we would do!:yep: I like that picture of Erich Topp, I have a signed copy of it! & have paid good money for a U-Boat commanders cap, still in transit, was a Christmas present, but starting to get a little worried as to why it's taking so long!:-?
I suppose I should have removed the beards? :huh:
No way, looks great!:D

[Redbrow]

Signed by Erich Topp? That is neat. Truth is when I play standard U-boat crews in standard SH3 I try to avoid having officers on board that have caps! I hate those caps. Of course this means I end up at times trading out officers with good qualifications for guys that don't have what I need. Only when I changed them into SS caps did they make any sense - if an alternate reality makes any sense....

And speaking about alternate realities - which this thread is about - I have been trying to come up with another alternate reality where the Prussian Royal family returns to rule in Germany and where Hitler is booted out or made into a joke figure head. You know Hitler gained total power by the skin of his teeth.

Recently while rereading through Padfield's book about Himmler about how near Hilter's move to back the German heavy industrial leaders and American money against the German light and technical industial leaders came to going against Hitler - I got the idea this could be a good point for a new reality. The book mentions that according to the Blond Beast, Heydrich, Rohm's allies (Von Schleicher and Strasser) and their allies such as IG Farben had a plan of making Hitler into just a figurehead, with von Papen as Vice-Chancellor, giving Strasser the Economics Ministry, Rohm the Defense Ministry, and making Prince August Wilhelm (Auwi) Regent. This would seem a good point to derail the Nazi regime just prior to the Night of the Long Knives. Rohm would certainly be a cog that would have to be removed before our U-Boat war, but Rohm, brutal and a sore spot with the generals, was never clever enough to have replaced Hitler. With the Prince as Regent we could have a scenario where the German Royal family is in charge of Germany, allied to England and fighting the Japanese and Italians (certainly most conservative Germans wanted to fight Italy over the Tyrol - something Hitler saw as a waste of time) Heck we could even throw in the Soviets. We could have Japan sign a treaty with Stalin - Japan invades British and French colonies, and France, Britain, and Germany attack Japan and Russia, while Hitler is thrown into a mental institution as the Wilhelm's return to power, now buddies with their blood family in Britain.

Better flag? Sure I like the old Imperial flag. It had style. Of course Prince August Wilhelm was running around in the brown uniform of the SA at that period, as the old Kaiser was hoping to be called back by the likes of Hitler if things worked out. But we would have a number of years for the Nazis to be replaced totally by the German conservative parties.

Or I thought about an alteration starting in WWI. America does not enter WWI, a stalemate and cease fire is declared - then we fast forward to the late 30s and this time Prince August Wilhelm is still Regent, but not wearing SA brown. And we get a new history of the Kaiser's family over Germany - not a bad bunch...


http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/WilhelmIIfamily.jpg

The daughter grew up into being a babe -

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s209/seatco/about1909.jpg
Read her book by the way

This way the Germans could be happy - no longer having to white out the center of the Nazi flag, and the other Europeans could feel safe that they were not supporting politically incorrect subs and a Donitz who was a strong supporter of the Nazi Party. As for Hitler, we could have him still, as a court painter for the Kaiser (painting many rooms and doorways). Germany would fight for the GOOD GUYS - the Brits in red hats and the banjo strumming Yanks with cattle drover hats.

The technology would be the same. We have many SH4 Japanese ships now. It would be mainly a Pacific war. We could still have a base in Chile - only this time with American blessings (oh God....). We could help the French and Brits retain their overlordship over their colonies and other holy quests.

But alas - the SH3 enemy AI would still be just SH3 AI. :dead:

[JScones]

Interesting idea, though. Sounds like a lot of work.

We will have to find somebody who will do it :hmm:

:rotfl:
Now now GE
You should know the workings of the campaign files by now
Crack on

Oh dont forget the flotilla cfg to change start bases and assign patrol grids
Interesting idea
:rotfl: He who now talks like a pro, LOL! :up:

GE: No matter how imaginative one is, I think they'll find that they are still restrained by SH3's rigid "go there, stay there, go home", approach. Not much flexibility or variation in the patrol framework unfortunately.

This means as I see it the only real way to create immersion, or enjoyment, would be with an exciting (and apolitical) story to go with the usual "sink stuff". I mean, France is Germany is Chile is Antarctica when it comes to SH3.

And of course, any alternate reality mod would have to come with alternate reality units, like legitimate prototype models and/or straight out fantasy creations. No point having one without the other. ;)

[Reece]

Hitler is thrown into a mental institution as the Wilhelm's return to power :rotfl:If only that had happened, certainly would have changed history for the better!:yep:
Read her book by the way Please give details, one of my favorite era's, and one of my Heroes, so to speak was Martin Niemoller, first officer on U.151, sister ship to the Deutschland, later commanded his own U-Boat, when ww2 broke out he was thrown into Dachau prison camp for defying Hitler by Goebbels:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Reecehk/MNiemoller.jpg
I like this version of an alternate reality, I hope you persue it!
I'd better keep this down, don't want to highjack this thread!:oops:

[bigboywooly]

:rotfl: He who now talks like a pro, LOL! :up:



I wish
Thats why I still ask you dumb questions

:rotfl:

@ GE

Is certainly do able but a lot of work involved

[Redbrow]

The book is The Kaiser's Daughter: Memoirs of H. R. H. Viktoria Luise, Duchess of Brunswick and Luneburg, Princess of Prussia

It runs around $30 to $60 as a used and rare book.


Check out her Prussian death's head http://news.webshots.com/photo/2694501450100532270fQlywo

http://news.webshots.com/album/560236968ywefzn?start=12

Germany can only be described as phenomenal at this time period and most of what Hitler built upon was simply the remains of the old Imperial Germany. How Germany went from having very little in the way of a navy or subs to being one of the most advanced nation with such arms in less than 13 years is quite a story.

Japan was also phenomenal at the beginning of the 20th century, able to beat the Russian navy while only having been shook from its ancient feudal past mere decades before.

[Reece]

The book is The Kaiser's Daughter: Memoirs of H. R. H. Viktoria Luise, Duchess of Brunswick and Luneburg, Princess of Prussia

It runs around $30 to $60 as a used and rare book.
I did a search for the book but found nothing for sale, bit disappointing, won't give up!:-?
Thanks for the links, interesting read!:yep:
How Germany went from having very little in the way of a navy or subs to being one of the most advanced nation with such arms in less than 13 years is quite a story.
I'm just glad that he didn't wait for 10 years or so before starting a war, he probably would have been the only one with nukes! :dead:
I'll PM you.

[GlobalExplorer]

The book is The Kaiser's Daughter: Memoirs of H. R. H. Viktoria Luise, Duchess of Brunswick and Luneburg, Princess of Prussia

It runs around $30 to $60 as a used and rare book.


Check out her Prussian death's head http://news.webshots.com/photo/2694501450100532270fQlywo

http://news.webshots.com/album/560236968ywefzn?start=12

Germany can only be described as phenomenal at this time period and most of what Hitler built upon was simply the remains of the old Imperial Germany. How Germany went from having very little in the way of a navy or subs to being one of the most advanced nation with such arms in less than 13 years is quite a story.

Japan was also phenomenal at the beginning of the 20th century, able to beat the Russian navy while only having been shook from its ancient feudal past mere decades before.

I believe this was to a large extend at the expense of France. After the (prussian) victory in 1871 the French were forced to pay huge amounts of money and to hand over the disputed territories of Alsace/Lorraine which left an also re-united Germany in her most favourable situation.

This often forgotten fact was also a major reason for the French exorbitance in the Versailles treaty of 1918. France saw this as a pay back they could righteously demand. Lest we forget that the French were not acting without reason or justification of their own.

[GlobalExplorer]

The discussion about Prussia could also be a good starting point for the alternative campaign.

Hitler is removed by coup d'etat by the Prussian military circles. Leadership is taken over by some high ranking general and/or a cicilian like Canaris. As a first measure to normalize the situation, Germany makes peace with France and hands over most of their occupied territories, so the U-Boats do not operate from French ports, and instead use the Dutch colonies of Curacao/Suriname/Indonesia. There are then still many alternatives as to who wages war with who. Even a neutral Britain would be a possibility if hostilities continue with the US / Russia or even Italy.

I would also like to see U-Boat operations from Iceland or some occupied islands north of the UK (Shetland / Faroer). Ireland and Spain are possible candidate for entry in the Axis, and a new run for African colonies offers all kinds of possibilities.

[Sailor Steve]

I did a search for the book but found nothing for sale, bit disappointing, won't give up!:-?
I found a copy listed right here where I live!

Can't afford it though.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=The+Kaiser%27s+Daughter%3A+Memoirs+of+H.+R.+H.+ Viktoria+Luise%2C+Duchess+of+Brunswick+and+Lunebur g%2C+Princess+of+Prussia&x=70&y=16

[JScones]

I would also like to see U-Boat operations from Iceland or some occupied islands north of the UK (Shetland / Faroer). Ireland and Spain are possible candidate for entry in the Axis, and a new run for African colonies offers all kinds of possibilities.
Maybe even New Swabia in Antarctica?

[nikimcbee]

Lets face it, searching for convoys in the Atlantic is getting kind of old.

Blasphemy!

I'd say, go buy SH4:up:

[GlobalExplorer]

I would also like to see U-Boat operations from Iceland or some occupied islands north of the UK (Shetland / Faroer). Ireland and Spain are possible candidate for entry in the Axis, and a new run for African colonies offers all kinds of possibilities.
Maybe even New Swabia in Antarctica?

I think New Zealand would make a nice base too. Just hard to imagine how the Germans could have got there ..

[Reece]

I found a copy listed right here where I live!

Can't afford it though.
Wow $128, I think I'll give it a miss for now!:yep:

[Sniper_Fox]

i think you guys should settle down, so what if someone makes a mod that the germans win the war? they didnt in real life, they killed millions of our lads, many including my gramp's closest friends... but we kicked their ass in the end.

the point is, this game is A GAME, and for the sake of making new u boat bases, and maybe even some new ships and uboats, you've gone in a pissyfit saying "omg theres a picture of hitler visiting the lincoln memorial!!!!:damn:

i see hundreds of swazzy's on this forum, to be honest, im more offended by some ASSH*LE with a swazzy in his signature, or some other "clan" tag or whatever that labels him to a fantasy nazi unit or whatnot, than a picture of hitler winning the war and visiting various cities. you took a joke and made it into a political statement. if anyone is the nazi, its the finnish guy with the swastika-bearing plane for a signature. my gramps would break your legs if he saw that, god rest his soul.... man was the best pilot over britian during the battle...


and by the way, i think your V-mod idea is pretty good, you should try to do it, you've got my download... hopefully you can include some things from GWX or make it compatible ( doubt thats possible though) although that'd be like having your cake and eating it, AND eating somebody elses cake after that!:rotfl:

[Reece]

We have exchanged PM's Sniper_fox, all is ok now, just a little missunderstanding, it can be a very touchy subject, I use swastikas in tha game as it is historically correct but ofcourse some, like KKK misuse it!:yep:

[Sniper_Fox]

mkay, i just saw what was said, and seemed a little unjust...

this old fox over here is a wee bit quick to hit the fire torpedo lever!:arrgh!:


ive also noticed that the stock SH3 caps bear a striking reseblance to the SS... ive never seen a blue naval cap worn by a sub-officer... only the white one.. or well one that isnt so rigid...

strange. maybe the creators were in the SS and are still tryi ng to pass on their doctrine through SH3?! :o lol

[Reece]

strange. maybe the creators were in the SS and are still tryi ng to pass on their doctrine through SH3?! :o lol :rotfl:
Yes it's easy to offend, I was just trying to warn that the contents may offend some, I just didn't do a good job of explaing it!:damn:
Still that was in the past & would like to put that to rest!:yep:

[Wolf359]

I like idea about new SH3 campaign in alternative history:up:. Personally I would like set/put this campaign in time where Nazi never rises to power, Germany stays Imperial State with Emperor Wilhelm II/III on throne but WW2 start because Germany went revenge for WWI and they Army start attack on France and England and traitorous Italy…and maybe attack USSR WHEN ENGLAND WILL BEEN CONQUERD!

[Sniper_Fox]

thats actually a pretty good one... you could take the ottoman empire over :D

[Wolf359]

I like idea about new SH3 campaign in alternative history:up:. Personally I would like set/put this campaign in time where Nazi never rises to power, Germany stays Imperial State with Emperor Wilhelm II/III on throne but WW2 start because Germany went revenge for WWI and they Army start attack on France and England and traitorous Italy…and maybe attack USSR WHEN ENGLAND WILL BEEN CONQUERD!
This is my list with favorite people for heads of German government where Germany is Kaiserreich in SH3 alternative history campaign (where Nazi NEVER rises to power):

1.Head of government Emperor Wilhelm II/III
2.Supreme Commander of German Army: General Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
3.Head of Wehrmacht: General Edwin Rommel
4.Head of Kriegsmarine: Grand Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz or maybe can be Karl Dönitz (if he don’t support DAMN Nazi regime)
5.Head of B.d.U.: Otto Kretschmer or Erich Topp
6.Head of Luftwaffe: I really don’t know who can be right person for this position, maybe can be Manfred von Richthofen/Red Baron
7.Head of Armament and Research & Development division: Dr. Wernher von Braun or Dr. Hermann Oberth

For other governmental positions I don’t know right people.
What you think?

[JAKE]

Maybe someone will make a mod with Type XVIII walter boats that operate in the Indian ocean with help from Japanese Naval and Air units. But maybe thats a bit too far fetched is it ???

[Reece]

IIRC the up and coming SH4 expansion just about covers that!:yep:

[Sniper_Fox]

I like idea about new SH3 campaign in alternative history:up:. Personally I would like set/put this campaign in time where Nazi never rises to power, Germany stays Imperial State with Emperor Wilhelm II/III on throne but WW2 start because Germany went revenge for WWI and they Army start attack on France and England and traitorous Italy…and maybe attack USSR WHEN ENGLAND WILL BEEN CONQUERD!
This is my list with favorite people for heads of German government where Germany is Kaiserreich in SH3 alternative history campaign (where Nazi NEVER rises to power):

1.Head of government Emperor Wilhelm II/III
2.Supreme Commander of German Army: General Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
3.Head of Wehrmacht: General Edwin Rommel
4.Head of Kriegsmarine: Grand Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz or maybe can be Karl Dönitz (if he don’t support DAMN Nazi regime)
5.Head of B.d.U.: Otto Kretschmer or Erich Topp
6.Head of Luftwaffe: I really don’t know who can be right person for this position, maybe can be Manfred von Richthofen/Red Baron
7.Head of Armament and Research & Development division: Dr. Wernher von Braun or Dr. Hermann Oberth

For other governmental positions I don’t know right people.
What you think?

manfred von richtofen died from his wound to his chest after he was shot down by an ANZAC soldier with a Lee Enfield. when he crash landed, british troops were all over him, his last words were "Im sorrry" i believe

on an ironic note he was also quoted to have said "when i kill an englishmen, my thirst is quenched for a meer quarter of an hour

[GlobalExplorer]

Wolf359: Many people in your list were nobodies if it hadnt been for the Nazis. Göring was maybe an exception. It should rather include people like Ludendorff, Hindenburg, who were not Nazis but ultra right wing militaries.

Germany had also civilian politicians until 1933 but their names are hardly known anymore ..

[Wolf359]

I like idea about new SH3 campaign in alternative history:up:. Personally I would like set/put this campaign in time where Nazi never rises to power, Germany stays Imperial State with Emperor Wilhelm II/III on throne but WW2 start because Germany went revenge for WWI and they Army start attack on France and England and traitorous Italy…and maybe attack USSR WHEN ENGLAND WILL BEEN CONQUERD!
This is my list with favorite people for heads of German government where Germany is Kaiserreich in SH3 alternative history campaign (where Nazi NEVER rises to power):

1.Head of government Emperor Wilhelm II/III
2.Supreme Commander of German Army: General Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
3.Head of Wehrmacht: General Edwin Rommel
4.Head of Kriegsmarine: Grand Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz or maybe can be Karl Dönitz (if he don’t support DAMN Nazi regime)
5.Head of B.d.U.: Otto Kretschmer or Erich Topp
6.Head of Luftwaffe: I really don’t know who can be right person for this position, maybe can be Manfred von Richthofen/Red Baron
7.Head of Armament and Research & Development division: Dr. Wernher von Braun or Dr. Hermann Oberth

For other governmental positions I don’t know right people.
What you think?
manfred von richtofen died from his wound to his chest after he was shot down by an ANZAC soldier with a Lee Enfield. when he crash landed, british troops were all over him, his last words were "Im sorrry" i believe

on an ironic note he was also quoted to have said "when i kill an englishmen, my thirst is quenched for a meer quarter of an hour
I know that Red Baron been shoted down in his famous Fokker triplane 1918 but don’t know details. Thanks you for telling me these interesting details Sniper Fox:up:. Maybe we can change his fate in background story of SH3 alternative history campaign (if somebody decide to try make it)

[ToySoldier]

Hello out there!

I read the thread til here .... and at some points it was horrible for me as good indoctrined german :-?
Because the last 65 years we were teached that we have the guilty of to catastrophic wars ... but ya can´t take a period without the time before and the hole political and social surounding!
But I like to make a suggesten (like in the "what if books"):
- germany still lost the WW1, because we need a reason for the 2.
- in the flandern fields a british soldier hasn´t mercy with a "gased" bavarian soldier when he jumped into the ditch, and killed the "charismatic" be-leader of the future NSDAP, before this man can take over the power
- Wilhelm II. has the bullocks to stay rather to flee into exile and decided to go back to the constitutional monarchy, like it was before.
- the threaty of varsaille was more affected by the americans, so Wilson shows this time bullocks, and the french just get parts of their will.
- the german "not in field beaten" army is reduced to a 100.000 men, they are still not allowed to build tanks, and u-boats (we still need a reason for the second great war), so some of the conservative militärs are pissed off.

Til here I have some suggestions and now Frau demands me :lol: to came to breakfast so I have some time to think over, and do a little research!
:D

I´ll be back with more!
Promised and Menace!

In diesem Sinne
Gott mit Uns
Frank B. aus K.

[Wolf359]

I like idea about new SH3 campaign in alternative history:up:. Personally I would like set/put this campaign in time where Nazi never rises to power, Germany stays Imperial State with Emperor Wilhelm II/III on throne but WW2 start because Germany went revenge for WWI and they Army start attack on France and England and traitorous Italy…and maybe attack USSR WHEN ENGLAND WILL BEEN CONQUERD!
This is my list with favorite people for heads of German government where Germany is Kaiserreich in SH3 alternative history campaign (where Nazi NEVER rises to power):

1.Head of government Emperor Wilhelm II/III
2.Supreme Commander of German Army: General Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
3.Head of Wehrmacht: General Edwin Rommel
4.Head of Kriegsmarine: Grand Admiral Alfred von Tirpitz or maybe can be Karl Dönitz (if he don’t support DAMN Nazi regime)
5.Head of B.d.U.: Otto Kretschmer or Erich Topp
6.Head of Luftwaffe: I really don’t know who can be right person for this position, maybe can be Manfred von Richthofen/Red Baron
7.Head of Armament and Research & Development division: Dr. Wernher von Braun or Dr. Hermann Oberth

For other governmental positions I don’t know right people.
What you think?

I thinking about best starting time for SH3 Alternative history campaign and background story:hmm:.


Best start and end time for Alternative history campaign could be in period of 1942-1950. (least for me)


Many of higher ranking Kriegsmarine officers suggests 1942 year for start a World War 2 to the DAMN and STUPID Hitler and other they Nazi party dogs, because Kriegsmarine don’t be ready for war in 1939, they have only 39 subs (if I remember correctly:know:) and just few ships from Z Plan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Z.


And in this history maybe Poland join in alliance with Imperial Germany and Japan when Stalin become treat to it. And in this history Germany doesn’t been in alliance with stupid and traitor Italy.

[geosub1978]

I would suggest for those who are font of alternative history to trigger Ubisoft for SH6 or 7 or 8 for something like that.

Remember the logo of GW "...not so long ago...".

History is always written in one way.

After all these years of SH3 I think that this game is devoted to serve history. A lot of us had the chance to learn things that we would never know.

The case here, as long as technically the game has reached perfection, is to reproduce all the historical events (battles-naval incidents-refuelings-etc).

Maybe time is not totaly passed to ask UBIsoft to change the game engine with a 1.5 patch in order to be able to assigne missions after the complation of the first patrol as in SH4 according to the developing situation.

In my opinion this is the holly grahal of SH3.

[Tessa]

I apologize upfront for the length of the message, trying to put the idea into words was a real challenge.

Not sure if the game would be able to work in this way, but there's a different approach that could be taken to have things extended. Instead of having Germany win the war, go forward with the possibilities that Germany could win the war, or at least extend it long enough to force a stalemate with the US. Hitler may have been a charismatic leader, but a poor military commander. Using true historical dates Hitler could have been assasinated early as July 1940, leading the way for a complete new government structure; or at least put the good field marshalls in control of the armed forces leading the way to plow through Hitler's moronic military blunders - eg during the battle of Brittan the bombers continue to target the airfields and not civilians; which most luftwaffe historians would say that Germany would have defeated Brittan's air force. Research in general would have accelerated such that boats like the XXI and XXIII could be in service as early as 1943.

As major historical events happen calls would come over the radio for all ships to converge at one area (like Dunkirk) and prevent the rescue. Or if you're too far out of range (even if you give say a 8 hour time window) factor in how much tonnage that you sink along with historical or random and have it affect England's military power as the supplies dwindle and ships are forced to sit idle. The main underlying idea would be that you could actively take part in shaping how the tide of the war goes - say you sink the HMS Hood in early 1940, resulting in the Bismark making it into the Atlantic safely. An event that would've had a notable effect on the war.

The final result could still be that Germany looses, but the actual goal wouldn't necessarily be victory (or make it such that Germany can't win as Germany fails every time they tried to invade England) but to reach a stalemate. With the allies in Europe unable to get any materials imported due to Germany's complete supremency of the sea there could be a final battle that cements the stalemate - something like the destruction of the Naval shipyards at Norfolk; thus wiping out the USA's Atlantic fleet. Then Germany has the same problem that gets hard coded into England (and a few other allies) that they always remain allied rather than occupied. The final victory being that the allied countries can no longer wage war as they are unable to get any supplies to arm themselves; a treaty or peace is finally made such that the allies accept and acknowledge Germany as it is and all hostilities end.

[d@rk51d3]

I did a search for the book but found nothing for sale, bit disappointing, won't give up!:-?

Try www.biblioz.com (http://www.biblioz.com) mate. There are copies there at the moment for $30 AUD.:up:


Great site for finding all sorts of books.

[EAST]

First let me say, Onkel Neal, you have my undying respect. So do many of the rest of you, and you know who you are.

Seems the bulk of the rest of this communities members pretend to support the little guys, but really can only lick the boots of the big dev houses while disqualifying everything else. True sim snobs aren't we.

This is a hilarious thread, I have to hand it to you. I can tell you from experience how alternate history is received by this community: not well.

We did real research, found real historical weaknesses and circumstances, wrote tens of thousands of words of not just alternate history, but explorations of real events, real people, and real circumstances that only happened by the most precarious of margins that DID indeed change the world.

Oddly, no one was interested in lobbying TAG to add realism to Enigma, but here we have the "gee wouldn't it be great to do alternate history in SHXXX". Do you know what it would have done to help a small project like Enigma progress if we'd had the same kind of community support about features, etc. as you put into UBI for the next revision or patch to SHX?

Its like I'm waking up from a diesel induced coma; wtf was I thinking to keep trying to make something intended for this market.

[Pioneer]

I'm going to side right along East on this issue. The extraction of "history" from a fabricated alternative is no mean feet when contemplating version 2. My documentation alone has been at least double that initially created.

Does anyone here other than East (or the remnants of TAG Version 1.0) have a major game release under their belt? I believe on this site there is one other - maybe 2?

So...what are the lessons learned? Perhaps next time this question might be better bantered towards those that have the knowledge, rather than hyptothetical back-and-forth between "I want this..." factions.

Or alternatively, developers not visit fan sites lest so they don't take in their wishes, and just create a game and be done with it.:|\\

You want an alternative WW2 campaign? Enigma: Rising Tide.:rock:

You want SH5 features - send your resume to Ubisoft and get back to us once you have a title with your name on it.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Nobody here has the time or the patience to re-edit all the campaign.scr, campaign.rnd and campaign.lnd. It would be the ultimate sacrifice. I have a lot of creativity, and if I had to do NOTHING else in my life and had a lot of money, I would surely devote myself to something this size. And it would be great.

I'm sure if someone acomplish such a feat, everybody will test and enjoy, coz we love this game more then we love accurate history.

[GlobalExplorer]

EAST. I am licking no ones boots.

I really would have liked to support you guys, still in some way I can say I did because I bought your game. But since SHIII came out I have not launched ERT a single time. SHIII is just 100 times better than ERT.

Imo you have missed the topic. Just because a game has subs in it it's not automatically a subsim, at least for me.

So I am still not feeling bad if I want to see SHIII or SHIV with a what-if campaign. This is really something different than what you guys have chosen.

[EAST]

SHXXX should be better, they could afford it. But mate, its not 100x's better, it is only a budget better.

I wasn't isolating you with my comments, but it still fits, you didn't get the point either.

I'm done trying to make games for this market. Subsims died from lack of interest before, oh look...here it comes again, the next subsim ice age. You may understand when UBI stops making the SHXXX series, and Akella decides it isn't worth it. Both are coming sooner than you realize.

[GlobalExplorer]

Let's get back to topic.

Now that it has U-Boats, I would rather prefer to see new campaigns based on SHIV. Besides some annoyances, it has much better graphics and the campaign structure is much more interesting.

Another thought, imo "alternative" campaign does not necessarily mean pure fantasy, like Great Britain occupied or other rather unlikely events. Some variation in strategy and U-Boat tactics, new allies and different theaters of operation could already be enough to spice up these games, without making them unrealistic. It's only the convoy hunting in the Atlantic that I have become fed up with.

[Umfuld]

I think it's an interesting idea as well. The one aspect that I'd like changed is simply being on the losing side every campaign.

Simple fact of the matter is that by the end of the war, even with great advances in sub tech - the allies completely owned the u-boats. (or pwnd, if you will)


The only thing is it is standard video game logic that the game gets harder as you go along with it. So the progress of the u-boat war as it happened is perfect for a video game.
But at this point, when most of us have played so much, that isn't significant. No matter when it is harder or easier - what does it matter? You've played in both eras many many times each. What does it matter which comes first?

What I'm getting at is (if it something that can be done) that there weren't such breakthroughs on the allies side in ASW.
Perhaps because things go badly for them they don't have time to develope their radars?
So while your subs improve the allies ASW don't (as much)


I realize that this is talking about making something that no one wants to do the work on as is a lot harder - but just my 2 cents.

Again, the sub war is set up perfectly for a video game - with the difficulty growing the further you go. But it stinks sometimes when you have a good long campaign. You really have nothing to look forward to but hell :arrgh!:


That's not to say I don't like it the way it is and will continue to play. Heck, my late war expirence is still quite limited. It would just be a different ... well a different game, really.

[P_Funk]

Its interesting but I think that a lot of the ideas in here, ones which seem to be erring on the side of Political Correctness. I think that the simplest and least dramatic change would be to just assume Operation Sealion went ahead and succeeded. That way you only needed to completely rewrite the USA's part of the campaign files and then you could add new levels of interest by adding to the far east campaign. Aiding Japan could be helped by perhaps peeking at the SH4 campaign and then you could simulate a speeding up of the US preparation for war while U-boats assault close to Canada (this would be complicated figuring the US reaction to falling Britain or dealing with commerce between Canada and the US.

You could have bases in Iceland and Britain. If people wanted to get really ambitious you could imagine the invasion of North America but thats pretty complex too.

If you did a non-Nazi party future then you'd have to account for Italy since the fascist alliance between Hitler and Mussolini was a factor and then there was Japan, are they part of it at all? The entire texture of the war would be so different it would be more than just changing the campaign layers but actually having to invent a cohesive and at least slightly plausible series of events in the war.

As for the political correctness... I mean come on we're afraid of keeping Hitler alive but we're still planning on re-enacting a war which will cost millions of lives. As a game we're pretending to send men to an icy death in the cold ocean. Is it really that big a deal that we can rationalize this kind of murder but not the other stuff? Or how about Stalin? Are we do remove him too and try to create a nobler war? Make it into some kind of adventure a la pre-WW1? I don't want to start up the hot words again but really war is war... trying to make it slightly more palatable to our sensibilities is just a mind game. Its all **** and you gotta accept that. Hitler or no Hitler lots of people suffer in war. Every war is populated by more crimes than we can know. So trying to make the potential project ten times more convoluted just to please the anti-Hitler indoctrination of our culture which somehow makes us still open to war in general is just silly in my mind. No I'm not minimizing the Holocaust but I think this attempt just minimizes the inherent offensiveness of war itself.

[GlobalExplorer]

Imo sealion could never have succeded, Hitler was bluffing and not even very well because Churchill was totally unimpressed. Today many believe that the outcome of the Battle of Britain saved Htiler from the greatest military disaster in history, but I doubt he would have ever attempted it.

Entirely possible would have been the destruction of the BEF at Dunkirk, if Hitler had given his generals a free hand. The psychological impact might have led to a profound transformation of Britains look on Germany and the war, a conciliatory, pro-german prime minister like Lord Halifax, the warming up of the alleged anglo-german kinship and a prolonged period of nazi domination and terror in Europe. In the end, all not very good for the world and especially bad for Britain, but after the miracle victory in France Hitler was really close to his goals.

If Britain had fought on without the BEF, they should still have lost North Africa and most of their Empire, also an interesting scenario because it would have created tailwind for Mussolini and who knows what this could have meant in the long term? Think of an Italian Empire around the Mediterranean, not nearly as powerful and long-lived as Stalins Empire, rather brittle and weak like the Austro-Hungarian one, but still with an impact on the region during the following decades.

[P_Funk]

Imo sealion could never have succeded, Hitler was bluffing and not even very well because Churchill was totally unimpressed. Today many believe that the outcome of the Battle of Britain saved Htiler from the greatest military disaster in history, but I doubt he would have ever attempted it. Oh now we're just splitting hairs here. Don't tell me that you're starting to quibble about the vaibility of Sealion when we're talking about an alternate history campaign designed around the Germans winning WW2.

The fact is they were never gonna win the whole thing anyway. If we can talk about going back to say that Hitler died or that Whilhelm III is in charge than we can say that they had Sealion better prepared, that Goering didn't bugger up the Blitz, and that Hitler's megalomania didn't become unbound and erratic.

And if Hitler was bluffing then why did I see a show today on History talking about the 'Auxiliary' units recruited by military intel to fight as a 5th column from inside their villages in total secret. They were expected to live 15 days. I think you're taking liberties with Mr. Churchill there.

[GlobalExplorer]

No I don't want to quarrel with you. But look, there has been too much hype about Sealion. It sounds an exciting plan, but in the face of the RN the invasion could never work. As long as there was no cooperation withing Britain itself, of course.

1588: the Spanish had a huge army in the Netherlands and failed
1805: Napoleon had the best Army in the world failed
1940: Hitler had an Army certainly as good as Napoleon's and failed

All because they couldn't cross the channel. Of course it has been said many times, but only because of the island position could Britain maintain her world domination.

Another important point, Hitler was really not interested in occupying Britain. In Mein Kampf at many places he expressed secret admiration, he considered Britain (and to a lesser degree France) as racially equal nations that would fight with the germans if only freed of jewish "puppetmasters" (no need to repeat any more nazi propaganda here). Instead of putting another half million soldiers in a country he did not want, Hitlers hope was rather Britain would accept the second place behind Germany one day, and that France would get out of the way completely.

Again, please don't see is as quarreling, but personally I find occupation of Britain too much of a stretch of the realities. Of course it could have it's place in an alternative history, but there are also more subtle variations of history. I am suggestion a middle way, so to say, like a different approach to strategy by the participants, or different technology like Umfuld suggests.

The fact is they were never gonna win the whole thing anyway.

Agreed! And I don't think that alternative campaign means Germany must win.

[P_Funk]

You're right. Britain's island nature is as much a natural defense as Russia's size and bitter coldness.

But remember that in 1066 someone did invade Britain and they won. Changed our entire history that did. Imagine a little storm coming along and ruining Willies day... Well then we might look at him like a lesser Ghengis Khan rather than a 'Conqueror'.

Yes the RN was a real obstacle, but in a narrow channel the size of your navy isn't always the most important fact. Narrow waterways have been the means to defeat a number of superior fleets in the past. If I recall correctly the Spanish Armada was significantly larger than the British Fleet.

I don't think that you can discount the underdog so easily. So often you have seen in history the fluke opponent win a decisive engagement. The Romans were piss poor sailors at best but even they could fake their way to victory. They mocked up designs of Quinquieremes with Green wood which was good enough for a single season of sailing against the Greeks and then they beached their ships which promptly fell apart.



Decisive force is not always that decisive. Absolutism in speaking of 'what if' is also pretty silly since we're taking liberties with the fog of war to reconstruct a different course of events to satisfy the creativity of our intellects.

And at the end of the day we're making believe here. This is a fantasy, so we can alter the stakes or the facts just enough to make it plausible.

And Churchill did take measures in case of invasion so that had to show he thought it possible.

And you used the example of superior armies rather than navies. At the time of the blitz the only combat worthy unit prepared to defend the British continent was the Canadian 2nd Division... one division against a whole invasion. If they got on land it was far from such a longshot I think. The only part of the invasion which is really in favour of the Brits was the water crossing bit, something which Hitler was always extremely wary and uncomfortable with. And yes I was aware of his somewhat boyish submissions towards the British. But at the end of the day I think he would have gone through with it had the air blitz crippled the RAF (another what if more to do with Goering's need to ingratiate himself with a total 'air victory' and thus preclude the land invasion, a notion which Hitler latched onto whole heartedly thanks to his afore mentioned Brit-Envy).

Agreed! And I don't think that alternative campaign means Germany must win.
No it doesn't but it does assume that the Germans either didn't lose as soon as really occurred or it assumes that they won significantly more before they were beaten back.

In any 'fun' alternate reality for my game-enjoyment I'd imagine one where Hitler doesn't invade Russia, though that would never happen since he was planning on doing just that since before he was elected, and would see at least an attempted invasion of Britain then a more aggressive expansion into the North and South Atlantic.

But like I said, its all an intellectual game, a puzzle, for us to play at... *checks his clock*... 2am.

Cheers :up:

[irish1958]

GE
A good, thoughtful analysis.
I think the problem with WWII was that Hitler just didn't think ahead and plan for a successful war. He just blundered about and then spent the next five years plugging holes.
He knew that England and France has a pact with Poland and that an attack would bring them into the war (and it did), so he should have attacked them first and left Poland alone. As it was, he expanded into the East and started a war with Russia, so he was fighting with markedly less men and on two fronts.
War plan:
1)build up sub fleet and air power 1939-1940-1941 The allies were politically not able to respond, and Russia was too busy havling purges.
2)Blitz France and declare war on England 1941
3)Encourage Japan in the Far East, and encourage them to provoke Russia and the US and European powers.
4)isolate England with a markedly expanded sea blockade with the greatly enlarged sub fleet. (No food or oil makes it difficult to fight a war)
5)build landing ships and practice landing
6)Start air blitz but concentrate only on military targets, especially on air fields and oil supplies.
7)early 1942 launch Sealion.
8)When Britain is neutralized, attack Russia, with the Japanese help

[GlobalExplorer]

First of all, great stuff P_Funk! I like your idea about Hitler staying clear of Russia, but then lets not forget Stalin might have attacked Germany himself (though I cannot see this happen before 1944), and this way the world could have seen a completely different war.

I will however, follow more closely the possibilities concerning the war against Great Britain.

But at the end of the day I think he would have gone through with it had the air blitz crippled the RAF (another what if more to do with Goering's need to ingratiate himself with a total 'air victory' and thus preclude the land invasion, a notion which Hitler latched onto whole heartedly thanks to his afore mentioned Brit-Envy).

To me it does not look like that the Luftwaffe was in a position to destroy the RAF. I also don't like the widespread notion that it was only due to Goerings incompetence that the BoB was lost. The problem was that the two airforces were about equal in most regards, and all the germans could hope to achieve was a draw - which they did in terms of downed planes - though they lost strategically because too many of their damaged planes did not manage the return over the channel.

I still agree that the outcome of the BoB was a key to latter events. While I think that a complete german victory was out of the question, the outcome could have still be different through different tactics:

The LW could have refused to fight over British soil at all and instead started a naval campaign (the Ju87 was already the ideal ship destroyer, the He111 could be converted to a torpedo plane, the Bf110 was in 1940 the worlds fastest fighter bomber). This way the brits would have been denied the advantage of rescuing all their downed pilots, and the losses should have been roughly 1:1, which could have tipped the balance for the Luftwaffe. That is if the RAF had come to the fight at all - but in the end they had to because the convoys were Britains lifeblood.

The germans could have used commando troops to destroy radar stations and airbases. Actually, why was that never attempted?

One can imagine all these things together with U-Boat operations (U-Boats bring commando troops to Britain, U-Boats fight in the channel in cooperation with the Luftwaffe etc), and we would already have a completely new U-Boat campaign, entirely without introducing anything unrealistic!

Another twist could be the death of Britains toughest leader, Winston Churchill. Lets say he got killed in that famous incident where he stooped over that Gladiator's gun while Mrs. Churchill sat in the cockpit .. Wouldn't Britain have made peace without him, especially if at the same time the BEF had been destroyed in Dunkirk?

[P_Funk]

Good reply GE. I however always had the impression that the RAF was nearing collapse due to exhaustion and over demand on the existing pilots and that the only thing that saved them was the sudden transfer to daytime bombing of London rather than the strategic bombing and attacking of airfields.

The other notion of Luftwaffe cooperation with the Kriegsmarine is one of those factors that has everything to do with Goering and Hitler's attitudes and medieval high court nature.

Goering adamantly opposed offering any of his own planes to help the Kriegsmarine and when he finally was forced to make a minor concession to his sea going 'brethren' he offered only obsolete planes in marginal numbers which were still under command of the Luftwaffe and not the Kriegsmarine. This led to the U-boats never receiving proper air support in eliminating targets or in searching them out. At this point Hitler's favour was a thing that went deeper than strategic importance or even competence. They vied for it like hungry savages and Goering's arrogance caused the evisceration of the Luftwaffe in seeking their primary celebration as the sole capturers of Britain's surrender. This appealed to a Hitler not wanting to face a seaborne invasion. Also to consider is that since favour fell to the Nazi elite, the Kriegsmarine received little heed when challenged by Hitler's old standbys since it was the least 'Nazi' member of the armed forces of the Third Reich. Though in later years, as the other cardinal members of Hitler's inner circle failed him, and even Doenitz became a primary figure and remarkably at the end of the war the actual commander in chief once Hitler died, for too long the Kriegsmarine was not given its fair share.

So to consider the notion of cooperation 'twixt the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine in a proper sense is to consider a different leadership of the Nazi party altogether.

And I think killing Churchill would be an interesting outcome, but not very fun for a game since immediate surrender without an invasion isn't that fun is it? They gotta at last fight for the beaches a little bit.;)

[GlobalExplorer]

GE
A good, thoughtful analysis.
I think the problem with WWII was that Hitler just didn't think ahead and plan for a successful war. He just blundered about and then spent the next five years plugging holes.
He knew that England and France has a pact with Poland and that an attack would bring them into the war (and it did), so he should have attacked them first and left Poland alone. As it was, he expanded into the East and started a war with Russia, so he was fighting with markedly less men and on two fronts.
War plan:
1)build up sub fleet and air power 1939-1940-1941 The allies were politically not able to respond, and Russia was too busy havling purges.
2)Blitz France and declare war on England 1941
3)Encourage Japan in the Far East, and encourage them to provoke Russia and the US and European powers.
4)isolate England with a markedly expanded sea blockade with the greatly enlarged sub fleet. (No food or oil makes it difficult to fight a war)
5)build landing ships and practice landing
6)Start air blitz but concentrate only on military targets, especially on air fields and oil supplies.
7)early 1942 launch Sealion.
8)When Britain is neutralized, attack Russia, with the Japanese help

You raise the question why Hitler started the war in 1939, when his preparations (Z-Plan etc) were going to be finished no earlier than 1943. And this is a good question. I guess he felt that the Western Allies were slowly starting to re-arm, and his advantages would never be greater.

I therefore see some problems with this strategy. The biggest one is time. Hitler managed to blitz France in 1940 but could he have done so in '41 or '42? Any french person would protest now, and if you look at the strength the french army had on paper (and which it actually displayed during WWI), you might come to the conclusion that the miracle in France was a unique stroke of luck.

In fact one could imagine that if the french generalship had been up to the job, and made a dashing attack (instead of dispersing their forces all over the front), the miracle victory for the germans might have turned into a disaster.

As far as Japan is concerned, it seems they really had no interest in an attack on Russia, no matter how much it would have helped Germanies strategy. Sure Germany and Japan were Allies, but were they really friends? It was rather an alliance of convenience, because they did not disturb each other. An almost hilarious detail is how the japanese ambassador was officially titled "Ehren-Arier" (Aryan by honour), because the japanese were untermenschen concerning to the nazi theory.

Another problem is that the Japanese land forces were up to fight the Red Army, because they did not have the right equipment for it. But for sure, with enough battle tanks and artillery, they could have.

[P_Funk]

[quote=GlobalExplorer][quote=irish1958]G
Now my point is, can you imagine what would be the Atlantic U-Boot war if Germany had no bases in France ? :hmm:
Bullsh*t, thats what it is. I only put with sailing the Kiel Canal because I know that sooner or later I'll get transferred to France.

[GlobalExplorer]

Good reply GE. I however always had the impression that the RAF was nearing collapse due to exhaustion and over demand on the existing pilots and that the only thing that saved them was the sudden transfer to daytime bombing of London rather than the strategic bombing and attacking of airfields.

I do believe this has been debunked recently. Fighter command was shaken, but no more than the Germans. In order to achieve air supremacy the LW would have had to achieve a kill/loss ratio of 5:1, in order to destroy the RAF and still retain enough power for its role in the channel invasion. But BoB did not achieve anything of that sort for the germans. When it was over both sides were about as strong as at the beginning - though historicians on both sides have tried to interpret the numbers in all different kinds of ways - the total losses on both sides were about equal.

So to consider the notion of cooperation 'twixt the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine in a proper sense is to consider a different leadership of the Nazi party altogether.

This is convincing. I also cannot envision any form of air support for the navy with Goering in office. Probably he must be replaced by someone else (Milch, Kesselring). Though I would still not discount Goering as incompetent, as the standard opinions seems to be these days. He was actually one of the more interesting characters inside the Nazi party (former fighter ace and war hero, cocaine addict, refused to pass Hitlers orders about shooting prisoners, .. ).

And I think killing Churchill would be an interesting outcome, but not very fun for a game since immediate surrender without an invasion isn't that fun is it? They gotta at last fight for the beaches a little bit.;)

I guess that rules out another idea of mine, the destruction of the spitfire prototype before mass production :-?

[P_Funk]

And I think killing Churchill would be an interesting outcome, but not very fun for a game since immediate surrender without an invasion isn't that fun is it? They gotta at last fight for the beaches a little bit.;)

I guess that rules out another idea of mine, the destruction of the spitfire prototype before mass production :-?
Not necessarily. Maybe that could make the RAF significantly less effective and possibly make the invasion even more possible.