20mm HE rounds?

[gimpy117]

so, instead of giving a 30mm to the IID could we give it 20mm HE rounds instead?
i think you would have a solid chance of sinking a freightor with HE rounds provided you can get in close enough. 30mm HE can punch through brick (leaving a serving platter sized hole) and a dinner plate sized hole in Re-enforced concrete, so im betting a 20mm can do almost the same.

so is 20mm HE possible and does anybody know the penetration stats?

[KLCARROLL]

The sources I have seen state that the 20mm AP round could defeat 27mm of armor plate at 300 meters.

The 20mm HE round was typically rated for 10mm of penetration (or under) at the same range.

The important thing to remember here is that the hulls of small merchant vessels were made of plain, low carbon steel; ……which had only a small percentage of the tensile strength of armor plate, and none of the surface hardening.

It is a good assumption that even 20mm HE would whiz right through the hull of a small merchant.

I have felt for a long time that the “in game” performance of the 20mm weapons against small vessels does not match “real world” performance.

Having had hands-on experience with both .50 cal and 20mm weapons, I feel fairly confident that 200 – 300 rounds of 20mm would turn a Small Merchant into a harmonica!


klcarroll

[gimpy117]

yeah that's kinnda what i was saying...so how san we make it more powerful/give it HE rounds so we can reaaaaaly turn a merchant into a chiv

[KLCARROLL]

Well, ......You can use the "SH3 Mini Tweaker" to modify the 20mm values up slightly.

The only downside to that is that you affect ALL 20mm values: ...Which means that those pesky Elco Torpedo Boats become much more serious threats!


klcarroll

[gimpy117]

yes, but it's more realistic, so now you actually have to dive for an elco : )

personally i think the whole deck gun/AA sceme is not realistic, iv'e sunk destroyers with 1 hit from an 88mm (AP) now, i don't know anything about naval guns and the armor thickness of a destroyer, but im hazzarding a guess that your gun would do less damage and conversly, destroyer guns would do much more damage to you.

[Sailor Steve]

True enough: the guns are roughly equivalent, and the destroyer is designed to float whereas the u-boat is designed to sink...er, dive. One hole in the pressure hull and it's no longer a submarine at all. Also, I've not heard of too many destroyers being sunk by one hit from an 8.8cm gun.

As for the 20mm, I would have to ask: how many reports are there of merchants being sunk by that weapon, and how many reports are there of extensive damage? Don't forget that even "unarmed" merchants are going to be carrying a few machine guns of their own; and while these may not sink the sub they're surely going to play hell with the u-boat's gun crews.

I'll bet GWX reflects this fairly well.

[gimpy117]

yeah but you'd think 300 HE rounds would make enough flooding to at least make her ride low.

anyways, yes i did sink a destroyer with 1 hit from an 88 (hit her in the bow while she was at 20+ knots) i really think we need to check the gun damage accuracy...

[Jimbuna]

yeah but you'd think 300 HE rounds would make enough flooding to at least make her ride low.

anyways, yes i did sink a destroyer with 1 hit from an 88 (hit her in the bow while she was at 20+ knots) i really think we need to check the gun damage accuracy...

I think what has happened there is that you have started the flooging routine in the forrad compartment and at 20+ knots she has eventually driven herself under :hmm:

[gimpy117]

yeah that's what i think too, se went down really quick, faster than when you detonate a torp. under her keel
EDIT:
ok i looked it up and i was wrong.

the army 88 (the closest data i could find) could pierce 4.5 inches at 1,000 yards and a fletcher had almost no armor, and only standing .7 inches at it's thickest (according to a online source that's not too refutable) so, i guess an 88 (at least the army one) would cut through without any problem

[Madox58]

Well, ......You can use the "SH3 Mini Tweaker" to modify the 20mm values up slightly.

The only downside to that is that you affect ALL 20mm values: ...Which means that those pesky Elco Torpedo Boats become much more serious threats!


klcarroll


Now if one were to clone the shells files,
tweak those and replace the shell IDs in the Guns_sub sim file?
:lol:

[KLCARROLL]

OH! .....I get it! (....said the noob modder.)

That way you would have a 20mm round that was specifically assigned only to U-Boats!

Cool!

klcarroll

[WilhelmSchulz.]

you have started the flooging routine in the forrad

Flooging? :rotfl:

[KLCARROLL]

"Flooging": ......That's the report you hear from the damage control crew when they're half under water!:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

klcarroll

[Jimbuna]

Flooging hirarious http://imgcash2.imageshack.us/img134/9742/angry8se2.gif



http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img412/4774/thumbsuplargeon1.gif

[TarJak]

Actually you can sink or finish off with the 20mm in GWX 2 even with AP ammo.
I just sunk a tramp steamer only with my II A 20mm. I don't remember the amount of ammo at the beginning, just know it was full and when the ship blew up I still had 550 rounds left. I also remember finishing off a larger cargo that was stopped after taking 2 eels, can't remember the type, either a large merchant or a ore carrier. This time the gun was almost empty, but a least she went down.Quite right Mihayl, and I recall getting desparate using Stock SHIII and resorting to using starshells to finish off a freighter after expending all my AP, HE and AA rounds and having nothing but SS left.

The damage caused however slight is cumulative and if you put them below the waterline they work a little better than doing above the waterline hull or superstructure damage.

[Madox58]

OH! .....I get it! (....said the noob modder.)

That way you would have a 20mm round that was specifically assigned only to U-Boats!

Cool!

klcarroll

:lol:
Gets pretty simple when you think about it all eh?

:lol:

[Cohaagen]

The big problem with the game is that it won't simulate all those occasions when an 88mm (or bigger) shell would pass through a thinly-plated ship and not detonate. In fact, that was the rationale for not armouring anything except a small engine-room belt on cruisers and gun/bridge splinter protection on destroyers.

[Jimbuna]

Any changes to the properties of the shells would include all those regardless of which vessel used them eg: 20mm surface vessels and subs.
Tweaking a 20mm shell to cause more damage to a surface vessel would have a like effect on U-boats, which in effect woulld actually mean a disproportionate level of damage in-game.
Catch 22 I suppose. :damn:

[retroflow]

Any changes to the properties of the shells would include all those regardless of which vessel used them eg: 20mm surface vessels and subs.
Tweaking a 20mm shell to cause more damage to a surface vessel would have a like effect on U-boats, which in effect woulld actually mean a disproportionate level of damage in-game.
Catch 22 I suppose. :damn:

Sorry for the late response. I was under the assumption that, generally, most SH3 players will dive to avoid most warships/armed-anything. So, in the case of the Elcos, if you both have a 20mm and you decide to fight instead of dive, your given weapons would be of equal performance, shell wise. Anything larger (and better armed) than an Elco you'd normally dive away from anyway, right? So any other Warship/Patrol having more powerful 20mm shells to match your own would be the least of your worries.

Another approach is to use SH3 Mini Tweaker to adjust the relevant values for the Sim's guns, versus the Sub's. By this, I mean, "dumb-down" the effective qualities of the enemy AI's guns to counter-balance the improved ammunition. Specifically, how the AI controls the 20mm from the Allied guns. I haven't had a need or want to tinker with these settings but, I see that they can be modified individually. Something to consider.