Harpoon or TASM?

[Wolfhound]

If I'm in a 688(i) or Seawolf and on a mission that requires a lot of ASUW, is there any advantage in taking the Harpoon instead of the Tomahawks? In the 688(i) I just fill up the VLS launchers with TASMs and use my tubes only for torps and that seems to suffice.

[MarkShot]

I find neither:

(1) Both are easily knocked down by defensive systems.

(2) Both produce an incredible amount of launch noise and force you shallow.

(3) Both are like a big finger pointoing to ASW helos "sub here!".

(4) I find the best ASUW is the somewhat slower passive fish fired below the layer and wire guided. You then bring them shallow up into BG's wake and activate them (passive). If you do it right, they never hear it coming.

:)

[Kapitan]

I only use TASM on dumb blind targets like the perrys (well russian equivelent) and other such vessels but even once fired ive got to make on heck of a quick get away because the helos will be right on my back within minuets of launch.

[Sub Sailor]

The Navy quit carrying TASMS on the boats, and as far as I know they were all converted to TLAMS. So for realism I use torpedoes or Harpoons.

Ron Banks MMCM(SS), USN(Ret)

[Dr.Sid]

Harpoon is faster. TASM is bigger. For sinking carrier damaged with torpedoes, or to hit unarmed targets, TLAM is good and faster then torpedo. For hitting those small funky patrol boats, Harpoon does just fine too.

To hit carrier group with missiles ? Very hard even with supersonic Russian stuff. But the ships will react. Move away. That can expose the carrier to torpedoes. But torpedoes can do that too.
Sometimes you can also get into shower of surface launched rocket torpedoes. Torpedo is pretty slow answer. Missile will make the target to main it's own business for a moment.

Against human opponents you better load torpedo and be very very smart.

Sometimes you can also use Harpoons from nearby friendly destroyer .. just post target to the link with enemy surface high confidence, and they will attack. And destroyers can send really a lot's of missiles at once.

[Sea Demon]

And destroyers can send really a lot's of missiles at once.

My Seawolf can send just as many Harpoons as an Arleigh Burke at once. :rock:

Seriously though, I prefer the TASM for bigger ships, Harpoons for the smaller ships. They fly similar profiles and speeds, so for me it's a matter of what I want to destroy. Like Dr. Sid says in the post above, Harpoon is faster, TASM is bigger. While I have found ways to make these slower subsonic anti-ship missiles more effective, your best bet is like some have said above. The MK48 ADCAP seems to be the most efficient and effective way of eliminating enemy surface ships.

With Anti-ship missiles....the more the merrier. Large Salvos are the only way to go. Saturation of defenses if you will. You must think "Will this salvo saturate the targets defenses?". In that regard the 688(I) with 12 TASM's in the VLS and 4 missiles in the tubes will give you a large salvo opportunity against a well defended warship. Not a 100% guarantee of a hit mind you, but indeed gives you a good chance to hit it, if not outright destroy it. This goes for Akula as well because the Tico's and AB's defenses are very difficult to get through. I think with the Russian supersonics, you have to be smart where you enable them. I've found that enabling them at different ranges has been helpful. Some earlier then others. The Kilo just doesn't launch enough Club's to be very successful against major blue OPFOR vessels.

[Dr.Sid]

There is also this problem with salvos:

1) send one by one - they will get downed by missiles ans CIWS
2) send all at once - they can all get fooled by single chaff cloud

So you must do something between .. 2 at once at least .. but not more then 4 at once. It really depends on the situation. You never really know. With torpedoes, it's simple.

[Molon Labe]

LW/Ami: Both the TASM and Harpoon have 510 kts listed as their speed in the DB. They both call on the same doctrine, so that should mean they fly the same profile. Besides range and warhead size, the only difference is that the Harpoon has a 20 point advantage in passive sonar SL and a 5 point advantage in RCS. I've never seen the RCS difference have an effect in the sim, but maybe it's time to look into that further.....

Stock: The TASM has a very small turn radius advantage. Otherwise, besides having longer range and a larger warhead, there is no difference between it and the Harpoon.

[Wolfhound]

So pretty much the only advantage of the harpoon over the TASM is that the harpoon has a (somewhat, heh) quieter launch?

[Molon Labe]

So pretty much the only advantage of the harpoon over the TASM is that the harpoon has a (somewhat, heh) quieter launch?
Just ran some tests, Harpoons and TASMs vs Soveremenyys and Nuestrashimys. Here are the differences (averaged):

Vs. Sov
Reaction: Harpoon 10.8nm, TASM 12.4
First missile shot: Harpoon 5.8nm, TASM 6.8nm

Vs. Neust
Reaction: Harpoon 10.75nm, TASM 12.3nm
First missile shot: Harpoon 6.3nm, TASM 7.2nm

There was no difference in SAM hit %.

So, what this means is that the 5 point RCS advantage translates into about a 1nm advantage before the target's air defenses take action. Does that make a big difference in Pk? Probably not. I ran ten runs though this, which I don't think is enough to guage Pk accurately, but in these runs what I found was that more TASMs were getting through to the Sov even though they were engaged sooner. More Harpoons were getting through to the Neut, but that didn't really matter because the Neut never survived in any of these runs.

In my way of thinking, since the TASM will do twice the damage of the Harpoon, the Harpoon is a better choice only if it is twice as likely to get through the defenses. The Harpoon does appear to have a slightly higher theoretical probability of a hit, but the difference is so small that it's not even showing up in testing and certainly is nowhere near 2x as good as the TASM.

As it stands now, I'd say the Harpoon is probably only a better choice in the rare circumstances where the launch-counterdetection threat is by sonar (undetected, distant submarines in particular) instead of by air radar or where the target ship will be destroyed by a single Harpoon hit.

[SeaQueen]

I carry both Harpoons and Tomahawks in the 688(i). Using over the horizon targeting information, with the Tomahawks I can shoot 12+4=16 missiles from a hundred+ miles, close to 60 miles, shoot 4 Harpoons, and then close for torpedoes. 4 Harpoons is feeble but I figure it kills time while transiting hundreds of miles to the point where I think the surface action group is. Shooting missiles is fun.

Harpoons are a little more effective in the Seawolf because of increased salvo size, but not very. My experience is that Harpoons are best used when you are coordinating with another platform. To extract the most from ASCMs you really need to put a lot of them in the air and with submarines the best way to do that is coordinate with another platform. That's the case with both the 688(i) and the Seawolf, but especially the Seawolf.

If I'm in a 688(i) or Seawolf and on a mission that requires a lot of ASUW, is there any advantage in taking the Harpoon instead of the Tomahawks? In the 688(i) I just fill up the VLS launchers with TASMs and use my tubes only for torps and that seems to suffice.