Increasing crush depth to a theoritical value

[Ducimus]

There is a basic premise that US subs could dive deeper then their test depth. Which is fact. What is often hotly debated is just when they actually crushed. Most people seem to agree that it was deeper then what we think. Getting research on this, is really hard. Ive looked on the internet time, and time again (since my book collection is lacking :roll: ), and finding accounts of deeper then test depth dives is really hard.

I think the primary reason for this, was because from all accounts ive found, submarine captains in the US Navy were admonished for taking their boat below the rated depth. They had to show a pretty good reason for doing so, or they were reprimanded. It could very well be that a number of captains simply didnt record a deeper dive in their logbooks because of this, so they're isnt much of a record of them today.

One thing ive wanted to do for awhile, was have a plausible excuse for increasing sub crush depths beyond 20 to 30 feet. So unless someone can come up with some hard evidence of a historical account of the deepest sustained depth, i got an idea.

Generally speaking, a subs crush depth was 1.5 times its saftey depth. At least, 1.5 was the number the navy used by accounts. So for example:

250 test depth * 1.5 = 375
300 test depth * 1.5 = 450
350 test depth * 1.5 = 525

(these numbers look familiar to ya? They should ;) )

So, id like to increase the crush depth to a theortical one, based on the premise that subs could go a bit deeper then what was typically recorded. But to increase this depth conservatively.

So, i have two ideas.

Idea A.)
Take the old crush depth, and multiply it by 10%.
375 * 0.1 = 37.5. + 375 = 412.5

Idea B.)
Take the saftey depth, and multiplly it by 1.6 instead of 1.5
250 * 1.6 = 400


Key to this idea, is modding the deep depth gauge on the orders bar to read in increments of up to 600 feet or so instead of 450 feet, which i think is quite possible as its been done before. Also i think using a test depth of 400 feet instead of 350 feet for the balao is probably more desirable.

Thoughts?

[donut]

I like idea (B)

[hyperion2206]

I just read page 479 of Clair's "Silent victory" and there it says:

"Another of Fife's replacements was Balao, a new boat commanded by Richard Henry Crane. Balao, built at Portsmouth, had a new superthick pressure hull. Her test depth was 400 feet, in extremis, she might survive at 800 feet."

So I guess in theory at least some boats could go way deeper then 600 feet.

[Fincuan]

An interesting story related to the subject: http://www.usschopper.com/Chopper%20Deep%20Dive%20Report.htm

[Ducimus]

If i cant get a depth gauge to work at 600 feet i might not bother. I think the value range of the depth gauge is F'ing hard coded. I can get one to work at 450 meters... which is 1470 feet, which is silly. You'd only use less then half of the total gauge.

The value of the depth gauge seems like its hardcoded, and then translated on a 1 to 1 basis. For example, the depth gauge is 450 feet. A few tweaks, and all of a sudden it sees it as 450 meters, but reads it off as feet. This value is defined somewhere, and i can't find it to change it. I think its hardcoded.

[Webster]

hope you find a way to make it work, it sounds like your numbers are right on target. :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I saw a book at the library a few months ago about the history of submarines. For US subs the author took it for granted that the maximum depth was twice the test depth, not 1.5 times. On the other hand he provided no reference for that statement. I'll try to remember to get it out and post the title and author.

For SH3 I think it was TimeTraveller who made the wonderful crush depth randomizer mod. You would type in the crush depth (which he provided) and it would randomize it to be as much as 20% more and as much as 10% less that the listed depth, so you never really knew for sure.

Something like that for SH4 would be nice.

[tater]

I've seen figures of 900 ft for Balao someplace. Not that they ever went that deep on purpose.

There are two issues. There is the depth at which even the toughest skipper would have started sweating bullets, and there is the depth at which the sub would actually fail.

The problem in the game is that we have too much information. Assuming the hull % is gone, then by messing a little with the total hitpoints, at least having any damage at all can randomize the crush depth and keep players honest :D

I suppose you could set it closer to what we know might be the real depth for a crush---possibly over 1000ft for a Balao. Then we add a new campaign layer. Random_crush.mis. The contents? A pacific-wide minefield with mines scattered from 600 to 1200 feet deep :D

There be dragons!



tater

[Ducimus]

I dont see myself setting crush depth past 600 feet for a baloa honestly. Maybe a touch past that. Im still miffed at the depth gauge.

It just occured to me last night as i went to bed, that the value range for the depth gauge, is probably being defined when you say "metric" or "imperial" measurement in the game options. As a last experiment i removed all of the variables the defined the range of motion for the depth gauge, and it still works like it did before. Then there was this little "code" comment next to it that i was hoping meant that the metric/english conversion was done in code, not the range of motion for the depth gauge. Its probably both.

So i think were stuck with a 450 depth gauge. I hate thise for two reasons.

1.) The only way to go past that 450 ft mark is to use the D key for "dive planes set for normal dive"

2.) It makes impossible to use the saftey depth needle. I like that function because it levels the boat off at its saftey depth.

In an ideal world, i was picturing a 600 ft depth gauge where the red need stopped at 400 ft for a baloa, and then you could manually target which depth you wanted to go at from there, up to 600 or so feet. Shame the world isn't an ideal place.

edit: I could always use the huge mongo depth gauge, but its really silly. heres what it would look like

0 ft |---------------------------------600 ft----------------------------1270 ft|

Of course then the numbers would be rammed so close together, you'd need a magnfiying glass to look at the tick marks. In addition the crush depth red needle indicator, would still be stuck at its previous position, and would not be in scale with this gaugue.

[wovik]

I've seen figures of 900 ft for Balao someplace. Not that they ever went that deep on purpose.

tater

there is a reference to this possibility here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balao_class_submarine

you should also check the links given in the text for Test Depth.

[CaptainHaplo]

Tater - please dont do a pacific wide minefield! I hate to see what that would do to my framerates!!!! :rotfl:

As for using the "Huge Mongo" depth guage - cant someone just make one that doesnt go to 1200+ and just edit it so maybe its 0------------325------------750? I admit - doing such things it out of my realm of knowledge, but couldnt the guage just be changed, or does the game have to be linked to the guage to make it work right?

I am perfectly comfortable with the 1.5 crush depth - although one never knew. Even now the Virginia's are finding weld issues (the 3 Seawolf's had the same problems) - so the best would be a randomization - but thats not really doable with what we have right now as I understand it. 1.5 is a good starting place!

[beartooth91]

Based on my experience (USS Pintado SSN-672) and my WW2 Submarine book collection; I believe "collapse depth" to be the minimum depth at which you're in danger of losing the submarine. Its historically been specified to be 1.5 x Test Depth. On Pintado, "collapse depth" was listed as 1.5x test depth in the boat's manual.
Based on some of my books regarding WW2 fleet boats, I believe a true crush depth to be around 1.9x to 2x of the test depth.
The Silent Victory account of the Balao is data point #1.
There is another account, also in Silent Victory, of the USS Salmon losing depth control in the midst of a depth charge attack and dropping down to 500 ft before the crew regained control of the boat. She obviously survived, but, was leaking heavily during the ordeal.
In "Find 'Em, Chase 'Em, Sink 'Em" (a newer book about the USS Gudgeon - and the best researched WW2 submarine book I've ever read); the boat went too deep while evading an attack by a Q-ship on her 2nd war patrol in the East China Sea. The patrol report listed the max depth as 350 ft. Some of the crew members interviewed said the boat went as deep as 513 ft during this episode. Her skipper, Joe Grenfell, admitted - after the war - she reached 425 ft during this event. Whether it was 425 or 513, she was still seaworthy after the event with no flooding reported.
The account of the USS Chopper (a Balao or Tench) surviving 1011 ft is another data point.
During Tang's sea trials, O'Kane took her to 612 ft.
I need to find some data on some of the Gatos with regard to the deepest recorded - or admitted - dives.
Its pretty clear the 1.5x number is on the conservative side.
However, I know of no submarine intentionally exceeding the 1.5x number. Many of the skippers were afraid to even go near the 1.5x number. Fluckey's normal evade depth in Barb (a Gato), was 375 ft. I believe once, he may have taken her to 415 or 425 ft. My impressions are that he was afraid to push her much deeper than 375.

[Peto]

Submarine crush depths were influenced by what shipyard built the sub. Electric Boat made good boats and Cramp boats were a little iffy--not generally popular boats to serve on. The best for depth were probably built at Manitowoc because they used a unique (at the time) method of welding the pressure hull. They rotated the hull while welding which allowed the welders to always weld down. This created better uniform strength.

Deepest dives I know of (by class):

Old S = ~280 feet (not sustained--they brought it back up ASAP).
P Class: Pollock went to 500 feet in an out of control dive (bow estimated depth was 550 feet). Again--they didn't stay down there...

Salmon/Sargo: Don't remember the deepest depth I've read on these. Easily 350 though.

Gato: The Puffer went through a sustained (~31 hours) depth charge attack and they remained at 500 feet for much of the time. The Puffer was a Manitowoc boat.

Balao: Tang went to 700 feet. It wasn't on purpose and they brought it back up. But O'Kane typically took it to 500 feet.

After the war many subs were used as targets. I have heard and read that some of the Balaos went well past 800 feet before the final implosion of the pressure hull. None-the-less, I would bet that there was a lot of leaks and blown fittings before getting that deep.

What I'd like to see is a formula for SH4 sub crush depths that puts in a random variable:

CrushDepth = TestDepth * 1.3 + X.
X = 0 to .5 of the classes test depth.

Not knowing exactly how deep I can go would certainly influence my decision making :hmm:. I've never figured out how to do it though.

[Peto]

Brainstorming :hmm:

Would it be possible to:

1. Create 5 hull (crush depths) for a sub class
2. Place the congiguration in the eqp file much like a plane does for its weapon loadout? It can then choose one at random.

Not sure if that would work but I imagine someone here would know.

[tater]

Alternately, it would be possible (assuming the players don't go cheating and reading the files) to BP-clone each sub at least once and make them differ very slightly, including crush depth.

tater

[Ducimus]

:roll:

I think this is pretty F'ing gamey.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/deepgauge.jpg

uber depth gauge:

Pro's:
Have full control over what depth you can go to, past 450 feet.

Dive planes set to normal dive will still level you out at saftey depth, although the red indicator needle won't show on the gauge. (ive had to disable it because its not cooperating with this scale of gauge)

Cons:
- Minute depth adjustment will be a bit harder because of the humongous scale graduations

- Looks pretty Fing gamey. I might beleive a US sub like a balao had a 600 ft gauge, but i think 450 was all they had. Granted this is just the UI, and not the ingame control room gauges.

- Over half the dial you can't legitimately use anyway. (unless you cheat your ass off and mod your boat to have a 450 meter crush depth).


Using this, "Gee what if" gauge, you have more control if you intend to go past 450 feet. of course, this goes back to the orginal question, how feasible is allowing subs to go past 450 feet? A balao i'd buy that in a heartbeat. Gato... im scratching my chin at, but leaning on, "Ok i beleive that", but any sub below a gato on the tech tree, i don't think so.

The other option is to leave the current system in place, but disable the "dive planes set to normal dive " functionality so that the only way to stop the boat, is to press the A key to level it off. Which is about the only depth control you'll have past 450 feet.


Personnaly, im leaning on, leaving the current system in place. This gauge would be pretty cool, if we were modding for a modern nuke boat or something :roll:

[Peto]

Alternately, it would be possible (assuming the players don't go cheating and reading the files) to BP-clone each sub at least once and make them differ very slightly, including crush depth.

tater

:yep: Those who will cheat will. Those who don't would find a whole new level of uncertainty... :hmm:

[leovampire]

Figure out what controls exactly the Normal dive set up for a sub and in what files it is in.

Then add a new dive control called deep dive lets say.

Add it to the cfg files and orders file and menu file and every where else it should go then add a keyboard and or HUD button for it or both.

So you will have Surface / Radar Depth / Scope Depth / Crash Dive / Normal Dive / and Deep dive orders for each sub.

[Ducimus]

Figure out what controls exactly the Normal dive set up for a sub and in what files it is in.

Then add a new dive control called deep dive lets say.

Add it to the cfg files and orders file and menu file and every where else it should go then add a keyboard and or HUD button for it or both.

So you will have Surface / Radar Depth / Scope Depth / Crash Dive / Normal Dive / and Deep dive orders for each sub.


I dont think they'res any other control to grab on to.

Theres:
Periscope depth (value defined by subs cfg)
Snorkel depth (also defined by subs cfg, and in our use, renamed to radar depth)
Crash dive ( depth defined by subs cfg)
Dive planes set to normal dive (the limit of this function, is defined by the subs cfg crash depth)

Ill take another look in the commands.cfg, but i don't think theres anything else to use. The deep gauge upper limitation, and dive planes set to normal dive has always been an interesting mechanic.

Balao is a classic. Can go much deeper then 450. However, the gauge control stops at 450, so anything beyond that is not accessable. Set dive planes to normal dive and it will bring you all the way down to the defined crush depth, however shallow or deep you set it. The simplist solution is to just open the crush depth up on the cfg to not restrict the player. The only problem with that, is the auto leveling off will no longer be present, the player has to manually stop the dive themselves. I dont think this functionality is all that cruicial, didnt have it in sh3, but it is nice to have, i use it all the time, leveing the boat off at 300 feet or so.

[leovampire]

Figure out what controls exactly the Normal dive set up for a sub and in what files it is in.

Then add a new dive control called deep dive lets say.

Add it to the cfg files and orders file and menu file and every where else it should go then add a keyboard and or HUD button for it or both.

So you will have Surface / Radar Depth / Scope Depth / Crash Dive / Normal Dive / and Deep dive orders for each sub.


I dont think they'res any other control to grab on to.

Theres:
Periscope depth (value defined by subs cfg)
Snorkel depth (also defined by subs cfg, and in our use, renamed to radar depth)
Crash dive ( depth defined by subs cfg)
Dive planes set to normal dive (the limit of this function, is defined by the subs cfg crash depth)

Ill take another look in the commands.cfg, but i don't think theres anything else to use. The deep gauge upper limitation, and dive planes set to normal dive has always been an interesting mechanic.

Balao is a classic. Can go much deeper then 450. However, the gauge control stops at 450, so anything beyond that is not accessable. Set dive planes to normal dive and it will bring you all the way down to the defined crush depth, however shallow or deep you set it. The simplist solution is to just open the crush depth up on the cfg to not restrict the player. The only problem with that, is the auto leveling off will no longer be present, the player has to manually stop the dive themselves. I dont think this functionality is all that cruicial, didnt have it in sh3, but it is nice to have, i use it all the time, leveing the boat off at 300 feet or so.

Add a totaly new order to all of the files that use and make up the other dive orders in the game.

I see no reason why a totaly new dive order can;t be added to the game.

[Ducimus]

I think there has to be some functionalty behind the command. Im thinking in terms of a coded function, with an ID that is called upon by the commands.cfg, which associates a keystroke which invokes the function.

Im not sure if you can reuse the functionliaty on the Dive command or not. Im pretty sure the functonlity of this command, in code is calling on the subs.cfg crash depth. In short, sure, its probably possible to map two different commands to the same function, but the function will still work as its been coded to.

[Hartmann]

:hmm: Sorry by this of topic screenshot , but is interesting see the depth gauge http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8394/sh025mf4.jpg

[leovampire]

Add a new command to the subs cfg file.

Add it to the Data/Cfg Commands file with a new 1030# and so forth

Then add it to the Data/Menu Menu.text file

and the Data/Menu menu_1024_768 file.

And set up a new texture reference in the hud DDS file for a button

I know it is complicated but I am sure a new Dive Depth button / command can be done for the subs.

Just has to be tied together properly in all of the correct file's and in the right places.

[tater]

BTW, the BP-cloning idea is certainly possible to add some uncertainty, and won't screw with load times, etc at all. The new classes could perhaps be based upon different manufacturers in terms of the SS numbers and names used. Perhaps we could make the HOR boats more vulnerable to diesel damage, etc :D

tater

PS--great idea, leo

[leovampire]

There would be commands like this.

Surface
Radar Depth about 30ft
Pariscope Depth depending on sub's scopes and conning tower
Emergency Dive 150 feet
Deep Dive 300 feet
Crash Dive as deep as the sub is set up for in all tests before sent out to sea

[Peto]

tater: Would a configuration made at career start save from patrol to patrol? I'm kind of assuming it would... And I'd definitely believe it would if tied into a particular sub as you mentioned a a possibility. What "might" be more interesting than tying them to historical subs and manufacturers would be to make it a random variable (you never would know for sure what you were getting with a new sub that way). Unless I was getting a boat with 4 nasty HORs :shifty:. That I Should know :nope:!!!

While I'm very into historical, I'd prefer the unknown of my hull quality. After all, not many subs went on patrol that had gone deeper than their test depth (there were some that did). A Range I personally would like to see in a Gato Class is a simulated CD anywhere from 390-500 feet (with both end numbers being rare).

Harmann: That SH1 screen shot kind of makes me misty eyed ;). I miss the bathothermograph and depth gauge too.

leo: You're on to a good idea here:hmm:.

Duci: Glad you're back :lol:

[Ducimus]

heres what im thinking,



Factor of 1.65

S Class 196 Ft * 1.65 = 323.4 / 98.5723 m
Porpoise 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
Salmon Class 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
Sargo Class 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
T/G Class 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
Narwhal class 290 ft * 1.65 = 478.5 / 145.846 m
Gato Class 295 Ft * 1.65 = 486.75 / 148.361 m
Balao Class 393 Ft * 1.65 = 648.45 / 197.647 m

or

factor of 1.7
S Class 196 Ft * 1.7 = 333.2 / 101.559 m
Porpoise 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
Salmon Class 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
Sargo Class 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
T/G Class 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
Narwhal class 290 ft * 1.7 = 493 / 150.266 m
Gato Class 295 Ft * 1.7 = 501.5 / 152.857 m
Balao Class 393 Ft * 1.7 = 668.1 / 203.636 m


This is based off the premise that the 1.5 standard was conservative in its estimate.

[Peto]

I'd go with the 1st set (1.65) or even less. I've never needed to go that deep to get away anyhoo ;). Except for the S Class. They should be less to reflect the fact that they had rivet hull construction. 250 feet was serious pucker factor for those guys.

[tater]

Clone all of em and do both ;)

(I say that rather flippantly, but it's actually a PITA. If it was a ship it would be easy, but subs mean screwing with all the flotillas, etc. Peto, there is no random way, they'd just be another sub choice like any other).

[Peto]

Clone all of em and do both ;)

(I say that rather flippantly, but it's actually a PITA. If it was a ship it would be easy, but subs mean screwing with all the flotillas, etc. Peto, there is no random way, they'd just be another sub choice like any other).

That's kind of what I figured :yep:. I may mess with it some in the future but quite honestly, don't see any good way for randomizing. The more I think about it, the more roadblocks I think of. The only possible alternative I haven't put away yet is adding a line to the batch file when you start a new career that modifies the value which sets CD. But I haven't done anything like that for over ten years.

And it's perfectly fine to be flippant with me :lol:. I know a lot of my ideas are a stretch but it's hard to tell when somebody else might have an idea that gives me the ammo I need to make an idea work. I may be pretty quiet now but I have pulled off a couple "impossible" things in the past. Now, IF I'd get off my butt and Prove it :hmm:...

Cheers!

[tater]

It would be funny to see HOR boats with crappy engines (easy to damage, perhaps at least 1 of the 2 we have goes totally out if you look at it funny). I can see the patrol report threads: "I got assigned a #$@!$#@!%%#@$% HOR boat!"

[Peto]

It would be funny to see HOR boats with crappy engines (easy to damage, perhaps at least 1 of the 2 we have goes totally out if you look at it funny). I can see the patrol report threads: "I got assigned a #$@!$#@!%%#@$% HOR boat!"

I hadn't thought of that aspect!!! Now I HAVE to take a more serious look at doing this :lol:!

[leovampire]

heres what im thinking,



Factor of 1.65

S Class 196 Ft * 1.65 = 323.4 / 98.5723 m
Porpoise 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
Salmon Class 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
Sargo Class 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
T/G Class 246 Ft * 1.65 = 405.9 / 123.718 m
Narwhal class 290 ft * 1.65 = 478.5 / 145.846 m
Gato Class 295 Ft * 1.65 = 486.75 / 148.361 m
Balao Class 393 Ft * 1.65 = 648.45 / 197.647 m

or

factor of 1.7
S Class 196 Ft * 1.7 = 333.2 / 101.559 m
Porpoise 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
Salmon Class 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
Sargo Class 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
T/G Class 246 Ft * 1.7 = 418.2 / 127.467 m
Narwhal class 290 ft * 1.7 = 493 / 150.266 m
Gato Class 295 Ft * 1.7 = 501.5 / 152.857 m
Balao Class 393 Ft * 1.7 = 668.1 / 203.636 m


This is based off the premise that the 1.5 standard was conservative in its estimate.

Unless you heavily play with the Sensors for the DD's and DE's and Sub chasers the thermal layer makes it pretty hard for them to find you anyways.

I still use the thermal layer Change aplication myself and there are times I have to hit 250 feet or better to get past it in the game. And other times of the year it is much higher 150 feet or even less.

So unless the Hunters have the ability to pic us up past the thermals why set the subs to go deeper?

And then if you are using the thermal layer aplication how do you determin what to set the Sonar pick up at to work well so that it changes?

[swdw]

Luke and I started talking about this for RFB. Here's one thing- test depth is a conservative number too. They throw in a 20% margin for this number. This is why Balao's operated at 500ft with impunity and the Gato's went to 350 - 400 ft w/o any questions. Your normnal max operating depth should be in the range of 20-30% over test depth. NO ONE liked testing the crush depth rating, so it may be more realistic to use the max operating depth as the limiting number.

Maybe these wil help. They're from Wikipedia, but these were the correct definitions when I was in:

Design depth is the arbitrary depth listed in the submarine's specifications. From it the designers calculate the thickness of the hull metal, the boat's displacement, and many other related factors. Since the designers incorporate margins of error in their calculations, crush depth of an actual vessel should be slightly deeper than its design depth.

Test depth is the maximum depth that a submarine is permitted to operate at under normal (e.g. peacetime) circumstances, and is in fact tested at during sea trials. In the US Navy it is set at two-thirds of design depth.

The maximum operating depth (popularly called the never-exceed depth) is the maximum depth that a submarine is allowed to operate at under any (e.g. battle) conditions.

Collapse depth, popularly called crush depth, is the submerged depth at which a submarine's hull will collapse due to the surrounding water pressure. This is normally calculated through mathematical means; however, it is not always accurate. Submarines from all sides in World War II eported being forced through crush depth, due to flooding or mechanical failure, only to have the water pumped out, or the failure repaired, and succeed in surfacing again. One of the most popular stories of this occurring was the story ofU-96,in the movie Das Boot. Note that these reports are not necessarily verifiable, and popular misunderstanding of the difference between test depth and collapse depth can confuse the discussion. (Planesman error sometimes causes submarines to exceed test depth by a few feet or meters during trials; note that a one-degree up-bubble on an Ohio-class boat indicates that the stern is some ten feet or three meters deeper than the bow.)

[Ducimus]

Unless you heavily play with the Sensors for the DD's and DE's and Sub chasers the thermal layer makes it pretty hard for them to find you anyways.




Ahh, but i have, awhile ago :88) I reduced thermal layer effectivness and increased sensitivy on DD sonar. Im not sure if its too hard for the average user or not. I dont have any problem with it, but thats just me. The main reason why im mucked around with this, is cause i have a deep dive fetish. Their just isnt anyway to put it. I like hearing the hull creak!

Ive already adjusted crush depth on my sim files (within reason), and got sidetracted by something else. :roll:

http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/atl_convoy.jpg
This is NOT the land of the rising sun. Ive already scripted the missions and flotilla for some allied submarine action in that other theater, now im just scripting in some light MIS layers. Im not going to put too much time into it, just enough so its playable. Im mainly setting this up as a framework for anyone who wants to come in behind me and really spend some time on it. This next version i think is going to be my last and final push on the TMaru mod pack.

[leovampire]

But as you can see like you I tend to look at and into everything in the game files. I just don't make mods for the public with everything I do for my own game because you and Lurker and Tater and Berry and now SWDW do enough of that to satisfy everyone's taste out there.

Just wanted to offer info and observations from what I have found, seen and changed in my own personal game and played with.

[Webster]

But as you can see like you I tend to look at and into everything in the game files. I just don't make mods for the public with everything I do for my own game because you and Lurker and Tater and Berry and now SWDW do enough of that to satisfy everyone's taste out there.

Just wanted to offer info and observations from what I have found, seen and changed in my own personal game and played with.

please continue leovampire because i believe ducimus has his bundled together with changes to destroyers sensors and thermal layer detections and all being changed. i just want a stand alone that fixes crush depths not a mod that just includes this fix.

please, whichever of you continues with this mod, can you do the crush depth fix as a stand alone?

please please please with a cripled unescorted enemy battleship on top :arrgh!:

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Well on the note of realism, the Gato class (Wahoo, anyways) had a deep water meter that ended at 500 feet and Wahoo spent at least a couple of hours a tick or so off the scale evading a destroyer.