GWX2: Question on AI subs

[Woof1701]

Hi GWX team

There's a question that's been bugging me ever since I first got my hands on the GWX2 manual. It says in there that all AI subs will only stay on the surface and will not be able to use their deck guns. Now if I remember correctly, in GWX 1.03 the subs were scripted to either run surfaced OR submerged, while the surfaced boats attacked ships with the deck guns but the submerged boats being more or less helpless.

In GWX 1.03 I used Sergbutos AI sub mod with virtual torpedoes in order to get some wolfpack feeling, but if now all the subs run on the surface
and cannot even use the deck guns they will be slaughtered immediately by the escorts near the convoy. right?

[Jimbuna]

I don't have the manual in front of me (currently at work), but AI surface subs should and can use their deck guns :arrgh!:

[Mush Martin]

(currently at work):arrgh!:
:nope:

[Koondawg]

I don't have the manual in front of me
AND HERE I THOUGHT Jimbo you were a walking manual...gosh :rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

I don't have the manual in front of me
AND HERE I THOUGHT Jimbo you were a walking manual...gosh :rotfl:

You can view the online manual via the link below my sig ;)

[Woof1701]

I don't have the manual in front of me AND HERE I THOUGHT Jimbo you were a walking manual...gosh :rotfl:
You can view the online manual via the link below my sig ;)

To quote the manual: "The Type VIIC U-boat resides only on the surface; it
can fire neither its torpedoes nor its deck gun due to stock Silent Hunter III limitations, but it can fire its antiaircraft guns; these will increase as the war goes on."

So this is wrong? Ok. Then what about the submerged boats with the scripted wolfpacks? Not there either, or am I mixing something up here?

BTW: I'm not sure how to interpret that sentence:
"The T-class submarine will appear on patrol in surface configuration anywhere in GWX."

[U49]

I don't have the manual in front of me AND HERE I THOUGHT Jimbo you were a walking manual...gosh :rotfl:
You can view the online manual via the link below my sig ;)

To quote the manual: "The Type VIIC U-boat resides only on the surface; it
can fire neither its torpedoes nor its deck gun due to stock Silent Hunter III limitations, but it can fire its antiaircraft guns; these will increase as the war goes on."

So this is wrong? Ok. Then what about the submerged boats with the scripted wolfpacks? Not there either, or am I mixing something up here?

BTW: I'm not sure how to interpret that sentence:
"The T-class submarine will appear on patrol in surface configuration anywhere in GWX."

Choices
a) Update the manual ??
b) Update GWX ??
c) any good reason for a possible downgrade .....

:damn: I still need to go home tomorrow to start my weekend and to find out that stuff myself for sure :damn:

[Laffertytig]

i thought the way GWX had implemented wolfpacks was that ships would be scripted to explode to create the illusion that AI subs were attackin the convoy, dd's would then goto investigate or do i have that wrong?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Y'all stop panickin'! :lol:

Soon as I can get free enough to do a full write-up on how and why the AI subs in GWX 2.0 are the way that they are... I/we will.

For now, all I can say is that they are functioning in GWX the way that we intended. Will clarify any/all AI sub matters as soon as I can okay guys?

Sheesh!!!... You guys are tough customers. :doh:

PS: Laffertytig, we did not script ships to 'explode.' I don't even think that is possible to do, mate.;)

[JU_88]

i thought the way GWX had implemented wolfpacks was that ships would be scripted to explode to create the illusion that AI subs were attackin the convoy, dd's would then goto investigate or do i have that wrong?

As the Kpt said - it doesnt happen, Serges virtual torpedo mod would be a damn sight better than that anyway, not sure if its compatible though.... anyone tried it? :hmm:

[Wolfehunter]

Sheesh!!!... You guys are tough customers. :doh:



Wait till the public release day.!!!:nope: Better get some tumbs or pepto.:smug:

[JU_88]

Sheesh!!!... You guys are tough customers. :doh:



Wait till the public release day.!!!:nope: Better get some tumbs or pepto.:smug:

On the public release day we are all going to run away and hide under the bed:rotfl:

[mikaelanderlund]

i thought the way GWX had implemented wolfpacks was that ships would be scripted to explode to create the illusion that AI subs were attackin the convoy, dd's would then goto investigate or do i have that wrong?

As the Kpt said - it doesnt happen, Serges virtual torpedo mod would be a damn sight better than that anyway, not sure if its compatible though.... anyone tried it? :hmm:

Yes it is but You need to script-in the sub VIIA from the Sergbuto's wolfpack mod to have it in the campaign and you need shells.dat, .sim, .zon in Sergbutos Library mod 2.0. It is a very cool mod with real exploding torpedos :rock:

[Nerazzurri]

Sheesh!!!... You guys are tough customers. :doh:



Wait till the public release day.!!!:nope: Better get some tumbs or pepto.:smug:

On the public release day we are all going to run away and hide under the bed:rotfl:

LOL You could still be found by there by diving and using the hydrophones!! :ping:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

...with real exploding torpedos :rock:

That is incorrect mate. Sergbuto's mod uses an invisible cannon shell to simulate a torpedo.

[JU_88]

...with real exploding torpedos :rock:

That is incorrect mate. Sergbuto's mod uses an invisible cannon shell to simulate a torpedo.

True, true. Well the consequenses are real..... just not the torps them selves
Still theres nothing worse than a sub with torpedo constipation, maybe we just need a 'dietry tips for AI Uboats mod' order the crew to put some laxatives in the torpedo tubes :lol:

[U49]

Y'all stop panickin'! :lol:

Soon as I can get free enough to do a full write-up on how and why the AI subs in GWX 2.0 are the way that they are... I/we will.
For now, all I can say is that they are functioning in GWX the way that we intended. Will clarify any/all AI sub matters as soon as I can okay guys?


So your choice is to update the manual?

600 pages grow to 800 :rock: Don't worry.. I WILL READ THEM!

Why? 'Cause I like it!! :up:

[mikaelanderlund]

...with real exploding torpedos :rock:

That is incorrect mate. Sergbuto's mod uses an invisible cannon shell to simulate a torpedo.

Yes you are right. Sorry for my bad english, yoda:) . What I mean was the torpedo explosion is real. Many thanks for GWX:rock: :rock: :rock: , Kpt. Lehmann.

[Laffertytig]

lol well maybe i got the ship explosion bit wrong then its been a while since i played GWX 1.3, but wolfpacks were simulated albeit in an abstract way right? im sure they were

[JU_88]

lol well maybe i got the ship explosion bit wrong then its been a while since i played GWX 1.3, but wolfpacks were simulated albeit in an abstract way right? im sure they were

They had no means of simulating any kind of torpedo attack but they would certainly draw the escorts attention away from you.

[bigboywooly]

I did test out Sergs VIIA with the simulated torpedo launch with adding to GWX 2.0 in mind
BUT
The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons
Limitation of the work around

Something we couldnt get around so was left out

[JU_88]

Hey BBW, you been quiet around these parts recenlty. :arrgh!:

[bigboywooly]

Hey BBW, you been quiet around these parts recenlty. :arrgh!:

Just formatted PC as it kept freezing
I hate computers

Anywhoo after a damn windows update it started freezing again so have been playing around
Changed the grafix card and updated bios etc etc

Thats where I have been at

:rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

Hey BBW, you been quiet around these parts recenlty. :arrgh!:

Just formatted PC as it kept freezing
I hate computers

Anywhoo after a damn windows update it started freezing again so have been playing around
Changed the grafix card and updated bios etc etc

Thats where I have been at

:rotfl:

Hopefully yer sorted now......if any replenishment is needed, drop me a line ;)

http://www.itsnature.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfmoon.jpg


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/pasquarade/wolf-38.gif

[Madox58]

Hmmm.
:hmm:
Maybe it's time for me to back stuff up!

Welcome back My Friend!!
:up:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'd been meaning to respond to this matter with a little more detail than we usually give... as it is a matter that we are constantly questioned on.

Why there are no submerged wolfpacks in GWX:
(Or "Why don't you guys use existing workarounds?)

1) We are not happy with the currently available workarounds/submerged AI subs for a number of reasons.

2) BBW hit the nail on the head with his earlier post on this thread stating, "The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons." It is a limitation of existing workarounds.

3) When ASW ships SHOOT at an AI sub that they detect as being SURFACED even though it is actually submerged... eventually, enemy vessels close to short range and unload everything they have at the submerged U-boat... causing FPS hits often large enough to crash the game on very good PC's.

4) ASW vessels do not depth charge currently available submerged AI subs... instead opting to shoot at them as described above.

5) The heavy damage models on currently available AI subs make them to be true "Tiger tanks" as a result of being required to absorb the mass of surface ship gunfire directed at them in game.

6) Currently available AI subs must be scripted to be either surfaced or submerged. They cannot transition from one state to the other independantly.

"Well, didn't you guys say that you built an AI sub that can dive when in proximity of the enemy?"

Yes. IIRC we also solved the problem that caused AI subs to be viewed as SURFACED when they submerge... causing enemy surface units to depth charge the new diving AI subs.

Unfortunately, when they receive damage by DC... the game CTD's... and the problem DOES NOT appear to be related to the damage model(s).

Once the problem is sorted... (If the problem is sorted...) It will be an easy matter to make ALL AI subs in GWX dive when in proximity with the enemy. (Axis and Allied both.)

We have already pre-positioned AI subs where they need to be... and they will continue to fight on the surface using deck guns for the time being... until they are replaced by us with new diving AI subs.

Will the new diving AI subs be available with the version 2.1 update for GWX???

No.

When will they be ready???
... and all the Grey Wolves said... "WHEN ITS READY!":lol:
Indeed guys, this may be a problem that we cannot overcome. There is no need to keep asking after you've read this post, and you shouldn't lose any sleep waiting for this one from us.

If you choose to use existing workarounds, and you know how to code externally available AI subs into your installation... feel free to do so AT YOUR OWN RISK! If you encounter problems as a result of non-GWX AI subs and you ask us for advice, we will recommend that you remove them to correct the problem.

IF... and I really do mean IF we are eventually successful with our AI subs plans, they will be made available for GWX users as a very simple JSGME-enabled mod that you can just plug-in, enable, and play. No campaign scripting will be needed as they will be straight one-for-one model replacements...

There is NO internal deadline for these units to be produced... and it may well involve much work that does not result in success.

Now you understand a few of the reasons, regarding our approach to "wolfpacks" in SH3.

[sergbuto]

I did test out Sergs VIIA with the simulated torpedo launch with adding to GWX 2.0 in mind
BUT
The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons
Limitation of the work around
I do not view or call that as a limitation, because in RL when the ship crew noticed the sub periscope they would indeed try to open up with everything which was available on the sub in an attempt to hit the sub. That's why I have given the subs raised periscopes and put them at the periscope depth. In fact, this adds more immersion when attacking convoy along with AI subs, it brings the convoy alive. This works fine in stock.

Now, I can imagine that can lead to strang effects in GWX due to the long-range gunnery mod and tweaked sensors so that ships can open up from very long distance.

In any case, the wolfpack mod is more realistic (at least to me) than a bunch of surfaced AI U-boats attacking a convoy during day time with their deck and AA-guns (this was advertised by some people with screenies from GWX 1.03) which exactly what they would avoid doing in RL.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I did test out Sergs VIIA with the simulated torpedo launch with adding to GWX 2.0 in mind
BUT
The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons
Limitation of the work around
I do not view or call that as a limitation, because in RL when the ship crew noticed the sub periscope they would indeed try to open up with everything which was available on the sub in an attempt to hit the sub. That's why I have given the subs raised periscopes and put them at the periscope depth. In fact, this adds more immersion when attacking convoy along with AI subs, it brings the convoy alive. This works fine in stock.

Now, I can imagine that can lead to strang effects in GWX due to the long-range gunnery mod and tweaked sensors so that ships can open up from very long distance.

In any case, the wolfpack mod is more realistic (at least to me) than a bunch of surfaced AI U-boats attacking a convoy during day time with their deck and AA-guns (this was advertised by some people with screenies from GWX 1.03) which exactly what they would avoid doing in RL.

Nor do we feel that your workaround is somehow more realistic for a number of reasons.

Sergbuto, we have not bashed your work... nor did we name you as a cause of problems that are inherent in SH3.

Assuming that we are successful with the plans we've laid in place, we feel our solution will present a better implimentation than the currently available options.

I've simply stated the facts as they relate to our modding efforts and internal standards that have evolved over the course of deveopment.

We aren't going to hammer something into place that we aren't happy with.

[sergbuto]

Why there are no submerged wolfpacks in GWX:
(Or "Why don't you guys use existing workarounds?)

1) We are not happy with the currently available workarounds/submerged AI subs for a number of reasons.

2) BBW hit the nail on the head with his earlier post on this thread stating, "The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons." It is a limitation of existing workarounds.
See my reply to the BBW's post below.


3) When ASW ships SHOOT at an AI sub that they detect as being SURFACED even though it is actually submerged... eventually, enemy vessels close to short range and unload everything they have at the submerged U-boat... causing FPS hits often large enough to crash the game on very good PC's.
I have been using my wolfpack mod since the moment it was created, i.e. for a long time, and never had a single CTD due to that reason in stock SH3 or in NYGM even on my weak machine (1.8 GHz processor, 512 RAM). Therefore, this can't be projected on at least one of "existing workarounds" as it says in the title and reasons for "often"-happening CTDs may be related to GWX itself.

In case you did not mean my mod among "existing workarounds", it would make it less confusing if you named "workarounds" meant because otherwise people would also think about my mod.


4) ASW vessels do not depth charge currently available submerged AI subs... instead opting to shoot at them as described above.
I do not know about GWX, but submerged AI subs from the wolfpack mod do get depthcharged in stock SH3 or NYGM (that's why the wolfpck mod was created for in the first place). Therefore, again, this statement can't be projected on all the "existing workarounds"


5) The heavy damage models on currently available AI subs make them to be true "Tiger tanks" as a result of being required to absorb the mass of surface ship gunfire directed at them in game.
Submerged AI subs from the wolfpack mod get often killed on the first depthcharging pass by the destroyer and most definitely on the second pass. IMO, nothing unusually strong in this respect.

In the end I'd like to say that it is certainly the right of the GWX team to desing their work /mods in accord with their vision and understanding of realism but the statements concerning "existing workarounds" or/and other mods should be more clear so that people do not get confused or mis-informed.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Very well.

I was purposefully obscure about 'existing workarounds' in an effort to prevent offending sensitive modders.

It is for this SOLE reason that I've avoided the explainations for so long, but it does involve repeated inquiries by GWX users that deserve an answer.

Somewhere, an egg was likely to get broken.

What I have described in part, is the behavior of your AI U-boats within the GWX mod framework. Just as you are not familiar with GWX, we do not claim to know all the ins and outs of NYGM mod behavior.

All the same, we are not willing to break other major modding advancements relating to sensors and gunnery, that are quite solid in order to field units that do not function as expected in GWX.

It is a simple matter of cost versus benefit analysis that the average GWX user would not otherwise understand without explaination.

[sergbuto]

[Sergbuto, we have not bashed your work... nor did we name you as a cause of problems that are inherent in SH3.

I do not consider what BBW said is bashing my work. He expressed his opinion, I naturally expressed mine. This lets people to form their opinion based on the arguments used or seek additional info.

[sergbuto]

I was purposefully obscure about 'existing workarounds' in an effort to prevent offending sensitive modders..
You mean me, since I was alone when made the wolfpack mod.

I am not so defensive (except for giving appropriate credits) about my mods as some of the people here (let me use the obscure language for the moment :D ) otherwise I would not let the GWX crew to dis-assemble my works (which was used in GWX) into pieces. Because I had a great deal of trouble of answering PMs and e-mails of players which asked whether one or another of my mods are included in GW/GWX or asked for explanations how to make my mod work with GW/GWX for the mods which were already part of GW/GWX. People were not aware that most of my mods are already included in GW/GWX because the credits section refers to various pieces, not to the mod names themselves.

In fact I think it is good that my wolfpack mod is not used in GWX, this way people have options for some variety (those who won't be scared by the "threat" of "often"-happening CTDs :D ) and can evaluate the modder's ideas like it was recently done in detail by Ducimus on the SH4 forum, ideas which would lose their personality while in the big compilation package. :D The choice of the ideas behind the mod is a result of experience, knowledge and testing gained in failures to find various solutions to the problem, since then it's been quite some time and I am still to see anything more realistic produced for use (and I would be the first one to use that, because I loved wolfpacks when played SH3) despite the claims about breakthroughs.

[Sirten Deth]

:lol: Play nice boys ... dont fight :rotfl:

[nautilus42]

Hi Sergbuto,
your AI_WOLFPACK_MOD is TOP, it works to me in all Big_Mods that I use (GWX.103, GWX.2.0, WAC, NYGM etc I Play MultiSH3 ), it works also with SH4.
I think, the only Problem for the GWX_DevTeam was to scripted it in GWX 2.0. It´s a "hard work"!
I`m not agree what Kpt. Lehmann wrote:
__________________________________________________ ___________________
2) BBW hit the nail on the head with his earlier post on this thread stating, "The game sees the sub as surfaced - not submerged so every ship in convoy will open up on it with surface weapons." It is a limitation of existing workarounds.

3) When ASW ships SHOOT at an AI sub that they detect as being SURFACED even though it is actually submerged... eventually, enemy vessels close to short range and unload everything they have at the submerged U-boat... causing FPS hits often large enough to crash the game on very good PC's.

4) ASW vessels do not depth charge currently available submerged AI subs... instead opting to shoot at them as described above.

5) The heavy damage models on currently available AI subs make them to be true "Tiger tanks" as a result of being required to absorb the mass of surface ship gunfire directed at them in game.

__________________________________________________ ___________________


When surfaced AI_Uboats are in GWX 2.0 implemented, also can be submerge AI_Uboats. It`s equal surfaced or submerge, they all will be detected and shoot by enemy Ships if they have Wapons, and Destroyers also attack the submerge VIIA with DC ore try to rammed it.
I never have had less Framerates or CTD`s when the submerge AI-UBoats will be attacked. I have tested it first in the SingleMission " Happy Times ", before I scripted it at the Campaign_RND and Campaign_SCR_Layers. There are many Ships and also Destroyers in this Mission and never I have Problems with FPS or CTD`s.

I like your AI_WOLFPACK_MOD and it is not a "Workaround_MOD". I implement it in all Mods I play.:up:

Happy new year and Greetings from

nautilus42

PS: Sorry for my bad English

[Woof1701]

@Sergbuto.

I think it would be a really good thing to create a GWX 2.0 compatible version of your mod. I once took your mod and simply exchanged the scripted GWX 1.03 Typ VII A subs with yours in the campaign file. That was little work and worked quite well and I twice encountered wolfpacks in the Atlantic. However that was about a year ago and I'm not entirely sure WHAT entries I changed. But I'll look into it and with you permission, and with the permission of the GWX team hopefully can release a compatible solution. This way everyone can decide for themselves whether it works for them or not.

[sergbuto]

Normal practice, when a player plays some mod/compilation package, is to ask some info (say about scripted wolfpacks) people who worked on the mod/compilation package, in this case, the GWX team. However, they clearly indicated that if the player is in for an advice, he/she must use only surfaced AI wolfpacks (good luck to the player who decides to join such a convoy-attacking wolfpack on the surface during day time ;) ) until they are able to produce properly working diving subs, because I guess when enemy vessels unload all the guns onto the surfaced AI U-boat (which BTW is also my idea how to make moving surfaced AI subs :) ) instead of submerged one, there are no FPS hits large enough to crash the game :) on very good PC's in GWX mod framework. So I guess, it would be difficult for you, Woof1701, to get info concerning scripted wolfpacks from the GWX team.

I do not play SH3 any more and I never played GW/GWX, Therefore I can only refer you to what was discussed before on implementation of my wolfpack mod and on getting wolfpacks in RND and SCR layers.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=112963&highlight=wolfpack

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94400

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...light=wolfpack (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=85169&highlight=wolfpack)

There are some changes to what was discussed though. This time, I was asked for a permission to use my Library pack v2.0 in GWX. I do not know whether it was dis-assembled or modified to elliminate the weapon of wolfpack subs or used as it is. If I see the respective files I can tell for sure. I guess you can try a test mission with subs from the wolfpack and see if they can "torpedo" any ship without bringing in the Library pack v2.0.

[Hitman]

Sheesh!!!... You guys are tough customers. :doh:


Well, that's the problem when raising the level bar so high as GWX does :D

"Well, didn't you guys say that you built an AI sub that can dive when in proximity of the enemy?"

Yes. IIRC we also solved the problem that caused AI subs to be viewed as SURFACED when they submerge... causing enemy surface units to depth charge the new diving AI subs.

Unfortunately, when they receive damage by DC... the game CTD's... and the problem DOES NOT appear to be related to the damage model(s).

Once the problem is sorted... (If the problem is sorted...) It will be an easy matter to make ALL AI subs in GWX dive when in proximity with the enemy. (Axis and Allied both.)

We have already pre-positioned AI subs where they need to be... and they will continue to fight on the surface using deck guns for the time being... until they are replaced by us with new diving AI subs.


Please consider releasing the add-on (Even as unofficial and unfinished stuff) with INDESTRUCTIBLE subs that have only few torpedoes :yep: The wolfpack tactics were very important in that they caused the escorts to scatter and gave other U-Boats the chance to sneak in and shoot the merchants. Facing a fully escorted convoy of 1942 by yourself is simply too tough currently, and those AI subs would give the player a chance to attack -as in real life- . Simply do not add them 1943 onwards, or add them without teeth (No torpedoes) so they do not artifically raise the sinkings.

Thanks for your efforts :up:

[bigboywooly]

There are AI subs attached some RND convoy groups
Some as leader so you will get a radio report from the sub itself ( convoy report looks round not square )
There are some historical convoys scripted on the SCR inc wolfpack attacks
There are also single\groups of AI subs in random patrols along\across heavy convoy routes

Yes Sergbuto did grant me permission to use his library pack along with the VIIA sub but as we didnt use the sub we didnt use the library pack AFAIK

As for FPS hits yes you can get large FPS hits from surfaced AI subs too if they are among a convoy but AI subs seem to suffer from a speed issue
As they are part of a RND group they are subject to the same speed as the ships
Trouble is they dont run at that speed
ie
Set a AI sub a speed of 8 knots and it wont run at that but at 6\7
Therefore when the convoy enters player render range ( 50 km or so ) the subs start slipping back which is why its usually the escorts that seem to suffer damage as they slip back to attack while the merchants plow on
So you dont tend to get any FPS hits as only the escorts firing

Ask and ye shall receive :up:

As to Nautilus


I think, the only Problem for the GWX_DevTeam was to scripted it in GWX 2.0. It´s a "hard work"!


Not being funny but its an easy job to either convert an existing unit to a VIIA or add more
No harder than adding the XIV in historical context

[sergbuto]

Yes Sergbuto did grant me permission to use his library pack along with the VIIA sub but as we didnt use the sub we didnt use the library pack AFAIK
F.e. German guns were part of the library pack and they are in, at least according to the credits section, if I understood everything correctly.

...AI subs seem to suffer from a speed issue
As they are part of a RND group they are subject to the same speed as the ships
Trouble is they dont run at that speed
ie
Set a AI sub a speed of 8 knots and it wont run at that but at 6\7

Yes, both surfaced and submerged subs have this issues. For me it was about 3 knots between setup and actual speeds. Good to remember when scripting AI subs in.

[bigboywooly]

Ah yes you are correct on the Ge guns
Ge depth charge racks too IIRC in that library pack

Yes its a good thing to remember the speeds
Ok in the SCR but as part of a RND group tis a pain
Not really sure why they run slower than speed set

[sergbuto]

Not really sure why they run slower than speed set
I wondered about that from the beginning. Never found the answer. I would buy beer to the person who figured out the reason. :yep:

[Madox58]

Is that offer open to all takers?
And I say that with all the Respect I owe you.
:oops:

[mikaelanderlund]

Ah yes you are correct on the Ge guns
Ge depth charge racks too IIRC in that library pack

Yes its a good thing to remember the speeds
Ok in the SCR but as part of a RND group tis a pain
Not really sure why they run slower than speed set

Does this mean that I can use Serg's wolfpack mod in GWX without his library pack? Today I'm using the wolfpack mod (changed to VIIA in GWX2) and the library pack 2.0 in GWX2. I haven't seen any wolfpack yet (still in 1940) so I don't know if it's work.

Mikael

[sergbuto]

Is that offer open to all takers?
And I say that with all the Respect I owe you.
:oops:
Sure. We can have a few beers after all.

And maybe the answer to the question will provide means for further tweaking of SH3/SH4.

[Anvart]

The main reason of all problems, it's that in SH3 is not present AI sub's (AI sub's controller) ...
Submarine, which has made SergButo, impossible to name AI submarine... it will be possible to name it as pseudo AI (or PAI :D ) submarine, it is more correct i think.
Why?
Because the main controller for SergButo's submarine is cmdr_AIShip (with cmdr_AIFight --> cmdr_AIUnit parameter). In other words, SergButo has applied cmdr_AIShip controller for unit_Submarine object. It's not documentary feature with restrictions in use ...
As a result we have object with Ship's AI (ship artificial intellect) ...
That we also see in game ...

SergButo has made excellent and very demanded (useful) mod :up: , but it has some restrictions ...

About beer ... :lol:
May be it's necessary to play with parameters of unit_Submarine controller ... ;)

P.S.
About CTD ...
I had it once (in the beginning), but after full cloning of files through Pack3D i have no problems ...



Happy Orthodox Christmas!

[sergbuto]

The main reason of all problems, it's that in SH3 is not present AI sub's (AI sub's controller) ...
Submarine, which has made SergButo, impossible to name AI submarine... it will be possible to name it as pseudo AI (or PAI :D ) submarine, it is more correct i think.
Why?
Because the main controller for SergButo's submarine is cmdr_AIShip (with cmdr_AIFight --> cmdr_AIUnit parameter). In other words, SergButo has applied cmdr_AIShip controller for unit_Submarine object. It's not documentary feature with restrictions in use ...
As a result we have object with Ship's AI (ship artificial intellect) ...
That we also see in game ...

SergButo has made excellent and very demanded (useful) mod :up: , but it has some restrictions ...

The wolfpack mod was made for the purpose to simulate the wolfpack attack on a convoy (as it follows from the name of the mod) in order to boost the immersion factor for a player participating in the event and at the same time to minimize unrealistic effects the player might see or detect. The mod was not made for the purpose to simulate the AI sub behavior in detail because it is hardly possible to do due to two general limitations: all the AI units have to follow set waypoints (only DDs and escorts/patrols received the ASW routines in addition) and lack of appropriate spawning triggers.

Even if the aircraft AI attacking routines are enforced upon the sub (this would force the sub to change its path when it detects a convoy) and then routines are fooled into multiple attacks as I did for airplanes in SH3, the sub would either return to its set path after a single attack by taking a straight line to the next waypoint (no matter where the sub is after the attack) or would endlessly try to make attack approaches, regardless the damage received until it is killed (and I do not think the subs can be spawn by the base as airplanes). I could hardly call such a behavior as realistic.

Note however that I did not say it is entirely impossible. There is an AI routine which forces Elcos to withdraw when they receive significant damage. If this routine could be implemented for the sub in addition to the aircraft attacking routines, this would change the situation significantly.

About CTD ...
I had it once (in the beginning), but after full cloning of files through Pack3D i have no problems ...

This kind of CTDs is due to a coincidence of digital IDs of some objects, generators, etc. and depend on how many modified things the individual install of SH3 has. The higher content of modified or new things added to the install, the higher probability to get such a CTD. Hopefully, soon the S3D editor by skwasjer will have a function to check the SH install for uniqueness of all the digital IDs thus eliminating the base for this kind of CTDs. As said this kind of CTDs depend on the individual install and naturally have nothing to do with inferred often-happening CTDs due to drastic FPS hits when enemy vessels unload all the guns on the submerged sub instead of the surfaced one.




Happy Orthodox Christmas!

The same to you.

[bigboywooly]

There is an AI routine which forces Elcos to withdraw when they receive significant damage.

Ah
I had noticed Elcos running away when taking damage
You learn something new every day
:up:

[sergbuto]

There is an AI routine which forces Elcos to withdraw when they receive significant damage.

Ah
I had noticed Elcos running away when taking damage
You learn something new every day
:up:
This routine could also be applied to airplanes to force them fly away upon receiving some damage.

[Anvart]

The wolfpack mod was made for ...

Мы очевидно плохо понимаем друг друга, Сергей ... Я понимаю Ваши замыслы, реализованные в моде ...
Я не критикую ваш мод ... Наоборот мне понравилась реализация мода, мне очень понравилась псевдо ИИ подлодка ... сама мысль скрестить cmdr_AIShip контроллер с unit_Submarine объектом ...
Но читая эту тему я вижу (в моих скромных пределах понимания английского), что многие читатели (даже члены GWX команды) не понимают именно технику Вашей ИИ подлодки ... и поэтому, желая адаптировать лодку под свои замыслы и соответственно выходя за рамки (задачи) Вашего мода, предъявляют необоснованные претензии (легкое неудовлетворение).
Поэтому я попытался (может неудачно) слегка заострить внимание на технике вашей ИИ лодки ...

This kind of CTDs is due to a coincidence of digital IDs of some objects, ...


???
То что Вы пишите всем известно, как и Ваша скупость к изменению идентификаторов объектов ... шутка :D ...
Поэтому мне практически сразу пришлось изменить ИД у остальных объектов.
Мои наилучшие пожелания.
Alex

[Madox58]

Anvart,
ß ïîíèìàþ ýòî âñå êàê óñòàíîâëåíî.
ID ÏÐÎÒÈÂÎÐÅ×ÈÒ, è âîïðîñû FPS.
ß íå õî÷ó âèäåòü ëþáîé ìîäóëü âûòîëêíóòûé âíèç.
È íåêîòîðûå óòâåðæäåíèÿ ìî÷ü ôîðìóëèðóþòñÿ ëó÷øå.
Âîçìîæíî ìû äîëæíû ïîãîâîðèòü MEH è ïèòü ïèâî.
È ðàáîòà äëÿ ëó÷øåé èãðû wthout ïëîõàÿ ñòîðîíà?
Òàì êàæåòñÿ, ÷òîáû çíà÷èòåëüíî, ÷òîáû ïðîõîäèòü âîêðóã òåïåðü.

:)

[SquareSteelBar]

&%($="!&*##@"%€=]{³´`; ??? :yep:

[torpille]

mais bien sur.:up:

[skwasjer]

Hopefully, soon the S3D editor by skwasjer will have a function to check the SH install for uniqueness of all the digital IDs thus eliminating the base for this kind of CTDs.

OT: Never thought of that, good idea serg, I'll add that to the todolist. One thing though, in some cases duplicate id's seem to be legit. I don't know all the situtations where this is ok, but I've noticed interior root nodes share the same id. But maybe this is the only case, as you'll only use one sub interior in one game... I'll have a look at it some time :up:

[bigboywooly]

I don't know all the situtations where this is ok, but I've noticed interior root nodes share the same id. But maybe this is the only case, as you'll only use one sub interior in one game... I'll have a look at it some time :up:

Maybe the reason why guages get stuck at 12 oclockif you use a player sub as an AI unit

[Anvart]

Anvart,
ß ïîíèìàþ ýòî âñå êàê óñòàíîâëåíî.
ID ÏÐÎÒÈÂÎÐÅ×ÈÒ, è âîïðîñû FPS.
ß íå õî÷ó âèäåòü ëþáîé ìîäóëü âûòîëêíóòûé âíèç.
È íåêîòîðûå óòâåðæäåíèÿ ìî÷ü ôîðìóëèðóþòñÿ ëó÷øå.
Âîçìîæíî ìû äîëæíû ïîãîâîðèòü MEH è ïèòü ïèâî.
È ðàáîòà äëÿ ëó÷øåé èãðû wthout ïëîõàÿ ñòîðîíà?
Òàì êàæåòñÿ, ÷òîáû çíà÷èòåëüíî, ÷òîáû ïðîõîäèòü âîêðóã òåïåðü.

:)

Hi, Privateer.
I with pleasure would drink with you mug and more of beer ...
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6916/iconbeerdo1.gif
But, Sorry ...
I have not understood your russian ...
...
And i make no doubt about your professionalism!
:up:

[Anvart]

I don't know all the situtations where this is ok, but I've noticed interior root nodes share the same id. But maybe this is the only case, as you'll only use one sub interior in one game... I'll have a look at it some time :up:

Maybe the reason why guages get stuck at 12 oclockif you use a player sub as an AI unit
Interior and submarine there are different "game spaces".
...
I have "swimming pool" (single mission) with all (stock game) submarines and some SergButo's "AI submarines" (7a, USS) and "AI submarines" of other authors (all of SergButo's technology) and never noticed failures in job of dials ... :hmm:
But i "cloned" (has redefined ID) all "AI submarines" by Pack3D in addition.

P.S.
And i tested all my SH3 mods in this environment ...
May be "ñòîëáíÿê" or "frozen dials" it is result of not correct saving of game in campaign?

[Anvart]

Hopefully, soon the S3D editor by skwasjer will have a function to check the SH install for uniqueness of all the digital IDs thus eliminating the base for this kind of CTDs.

OT: Never thought of that, good idea serg, I'll add that to the todolist. One thing though, in some cases duplicate id's seem to be legit. I don't know all the situtations where this is ok, but I've noticed interior root nodes share the same id. But maybe this is the only case, as you'll only use one sub interior in one game... I'll have a look at it some time :up:
Serg, now (while) you can use "Search files for ID" feature for this purpose ... ;) (only for 1 ID simultaneously, as well as in any Search and Replace prog. - example: http://www.funduc.com/) ...
Skwasjer,
But (i think) this feature is not finished ...
I would like to see as a result of search not only files but also nodes with required ID ...

[skwasjer]

Thanks, Anvart, I like this idea. I'll see what I can do to improve the function :smug:
I'll probably add some other stuff to it too, like look for specific controllers. tater recently was looking for a controller that was hiding in only one specific file. :) If there are more ideas that can be added to the search function, keep me posted.

[edit] The benefit of the search function over 3rd party tools is that you can ask it to only return results for 'id' or 'parent id' fields. However, if you want to find ALL possible matches, then you're better of with other tools ;)

[Anvart]

Thanks, Anvart, I like this idea. I'll see what I can do to improve the function :smug:
I'll probably add some other stuff to it too, like look for specific controllers. tater recently was looking for a controller that was hiding in only one specific file. :) If there are more ideas that can be added to the search function, keep me posted.
Thanks, Skwasjer.
...
But, while, Tater could use S&R program for this purpose ... :hmm:

[Anvart]

...
[edit] The benefit of the search function over 3rd party tools is that you can ask it to only return results for 'id' or 'parent id' fields. However, if you want to find ALL possible matches, then you're better of with other tools ;)
No, Skwasjer.
It's good integrated (built in) feature in S3D ...
Good luck!

[skwasjer]

He could, but having such ability in one tool is easy too. I don't think he's a typical 'hardcore' hex guy, like some of you are and relies on S3D for most of his work, and since I've got the global search function working, it's not that hard to extend it for other search methods/types...

Anyway, I think we are derailing the thread. I think we should move feature discussions over to S3D thread. Thanks again though

[Badger Finn]

All of this backwards and forwards about something that should have been a outta the box feature to start with...

IMO this is where Ubi really missed the point of U-boats in WWII

Ubi should fix there half built house so modders can enhance the game not fix whats missing

I wouldnt recommend any Ubi games to any one just like EA's attempt at Westwood games - POOR

:doh:

[sergbuto]

One thing though, in some cases duplicate id's seem to be legit. I don't know all the situtations where this is ok, but I've noticed interior root nodes share the same id. But maybe this is the only case, as you'll only use one sub interior in one game... I'll have a look at it some time :up:

There are actually several cases when the same IDs can be used:

- the first one you have already mentioned
- IDs for the 3D mesh. The game will not crash but will use the same mesh for different objects. It is kind of a way to save on RAM space usage so that the objects using the same 3D mesh will not be loaded multiple times. Long time ago when I figured out the thing about digital IDs and their uniqueness and naturally there was no Pack3D, I did cloning by hand and by changing the absolute minimum number of IDs to just get it work without CTDs, intentionally leaving 3D mesh IDs unchanged. That was even before the last patch if I remember correctly.
- for some controllers while controller's header needs to have different ID, controller's body may have its ID unchanged and work.
- etc.

However, nowdays with that powerful computers and various tools, changing all the appropriate IDs will not hurt but can make it better.

[Madox58]

Sergbuto,

I also noted that 3D meshes can be reused, so to speak.
The Naval Fort, with all the towers, reuses 3D meshes.
Was a bit of a pain getting everything placed,
but the over all effect is good.