A thought about supermods

[swdw]

Ducimus talking about having different reality levels for torpedoes got me thinking.

People have asked for a GWX style supermod for SH4, but personally, I don't like the idea of not having supermod choices. So Ducimus got me thinking, why not ave scaleable levels of reality based on which supermod you choose and some of the changes would be incorparated across the board like they already are. For example, the different "fix-it" mini mods that have found their way into TM, RFB, ROW, RSRD.

So you could have the following
Arcade . . . . . . . . . . . .Stock . . . . . . . . . . .Pretty realistic . . . . . . . .Very realistic

Superboat . . . . . . . . . .Stock . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .TM . . . . . . . . . .RFB . .

Not that these currently land as listed (except for stock), so don't holler that TM is not placed properly. This is just to give an idea of what was going through my head. This gives the modders an area to target rather than trying to please everyone, and gives users an idea of which mod they want to try first.

After all, modders will pursue what they prefer for their own gameplay, or there wouldn't be any mods. But that would encourage the sharing of changes that could be scaled for the particular mod. For example, I borrowed Ducimus' faster dive times in TM and slowed them down a bit for RFB, but they are faaster than stock which is too slow. Ducimus can take CCIP's torpedo mod in RFB and scale it back some for TM (or ask CCIP to do so).

This would allow appealing to a wider audience. For example, the superboat mod would have perfect torpedoes that run like a jackrabbit with LOTS of targets so you could get a 12 year old interested in submarine sims. Of course, this would disgust a hard core simmer, but he could go with TM or RFB instead.

Just thinking . . . . need to stop though, I can hear the gears grinding and see the smoke :D

[AVGWarhawk]

Anything that encourages colaboration and sharing of files is great! This looks like much work but if you are game then go for it. Personally, RFB/RSRD/ROW/Evasion mod has made it a great game to play. So yes, a variety of options would be very nice for all to enjoy.

[Wilcke]

swdw,

I agree, although a lot of work in the "questions generated" department; this would be a neat feature.

This is the way I play it; I use MultiSH4 to setup two installs of SH4 with their distinct Save Game Folders. I then run TM on one and RFB on the other. One hardcore realistic and the other a "blend" especially in the torpedo department.

I am new to both SH3 and SH4 just started back in January. But with Multi and JSGME and some light modding for my own education, I enjoy having two different installs with different complexities.

The challenge lies in all the questions for the Modder this generates from the users. About 3-4 months ago I scaled back my Mod use to just keep things simple. Its worked out well in that the installs are much more stable and no more CTD's.

[tater]

First, let me state right off that I'm with AVG, the free exchange of information, techniques, tools, etc benefits everyone. There are possibilities as of yet unexplored, and every new set of eyeballs is a potential novelty that we might use.

With that out there, supermods can assemble component parts with much of it "off the shelf," or at least off the shelf with minor tweaks.

To the question at hand:
The problem is not the level of difficulty.

The problem is that at a certain point, everything overlaps. ROW is a graphics mod, but it alters the ship files. A DC mod might alter the ship files as well (adding nodes for new launchers, etc). Campaign files can add ships, mess with UPC files, add weapons, etc.

If all mod authors try to make compatible mods, it makes things very tricky. A stock DC mod, one for TM, another for RSRD, yet another for some future, popular mod set. You get the idea. Loads of extra work.

I think the best route to take is to think about some standards that will minimize the overlap as much as possible.

Example:

The Library Directory.

If you make a mod that changes a dat/sim/zon combo, think about making a new dat/sim/zon. Sometimes it makes sense to alter the stock file since it will automatically propagate to all the units that call a link. Other times, it makes sense to make a brand new one. I added all the new DC racks/throwers to a new, unique dat/sim/zon combo. My AI visual mod I need to get back to has the new visual nodes in their own, new dat. Stock will remain unchanged. In retrospect, I should have BP-cloned the minesweeper and subchaser to the "corvette" group with new names, and left the stock ones as-is. Then the single missions, etc would not be broken. Live and learn.

Anyway, it is possible to come up with standards that make things a little easier on people from an integration standpoint.

[DeepIron]

The problem lies in the Modder and all the questions this generates from the users. Quite a valid point I'd agree. At times it seems like most of the posts are either "is mod xyz compatible with mod(s) abc?" or "how do I install this?"

One thing I'd really like to see, and I think this dovetails with taters comment, is more complete info and docs concerning their mods. I know this is more work to be done from a crew of people who do this for the enjoyment and community, but it would go a long way in helping those who create and maintain supermods integrate the components.

Not to mention "recreating the wheel" when someone else has already worked out a solution.

Just my 0.02 ;)

[joea]

Some good ideas here people, still it will never be possible to please everybody. :hmm:

Also, some files can more easily be shared than others, no?

Need a short break from subs actually. ;)

Another point is "realism" is rather subjective in certain areas. We have numbers from WWII for example, but weapons and damage models are always tweaked with a certain degree of "feel."

[partyboy]

This is the way I play it; I use MultiSH4 to setup two installs of SH4 with their distinct Save Game Folders. I then run TM on one and RFB on the other. One hardcore realistic and the other a "blend" especially in the torpedo department.

Can you give some details on how differently TM and RFB play? I know RFB is supposed to be more strict, more realistic, but I'm wondering how that all adds up in practical terms.

[Seadogs]

Tater,

Very good point, but it made me think. And I'm just talking out of my naive uneducated ass here. But would it help if JSGME had a merge file function? As in when it hits an already modded file and kicks up the overwrite dialoge box.

Yes, no, merge file.:hmm:

[tater]

I think a merge feature would be cool, but it would also not be universal I think. Sure, you can merge 2 changes, but what if they both change the same value, which gets used? Also, even if the merge is compatible from a file standpoint, it might not be from a gameplay standpoint. One mod changes the AI to make them hang around longer, and another makes their sensors from hell with the same file (different variables). The one that has them hang around longer to beef them up assuming a specific set of low sensor values, the other has them staying the stock time, but beefs them up with sensor improvements. Combined, they are from hell, lol.

Other changes might be less intuitive and make them do contradictory things. It's complex. Still, a useful tool to have I think.

One thing that might make the supermodder's lives easier is for them to solicit specific modules. Say RFB wants to have a DC mod that meets certain historical requiremments, but wirth a lighter DM than what I have. Ask if I can bang a version out with lower EF values or whatever you want.

I suppose from a "one stop shopping" standpoint, it might be useful to compile a list of mods (like the one stickied at top) that is organized by the goal of said mod, but is annotated with the files messed with, etc.

tater

[AVGWarhawk]

A super mod of sorts is already working. What I mean is, I use RFB for ROW and RSRD for RFB. Of course ROW is in there. I dropped in the longer evasion and a different ordersbar. This is already a colaboration of efforts by Beery, Swdw, LukeFF, Leovampire, Tater, Peto, Digital Trucker (quick fix for me yesterday), Oakgroove (for his orders bar). Very sorry if I missed anyone. The foundation is there and the file sharing is working beautifully. Now, for the greater good of a super mod, one stop shop, there should be all out realism mod. I say this because we can already play at 100% or unclick all the boxes for easier play less realism. Doing this will relieve you of having to make 4 versions. Really men, I have seen everyone helping with issues and problems. Getting things to work. That is key to having a overall superior mod package. Not only that, I spend less time playing referee and locking heated threads;)

[jazman]

Speaking not as a modder, but just as a user, it can get to the point where I'm wondering, am I a sysadmin, maintaining a game? At that point simplicity takes over, which is why I'm only running TM.

[tater]

I think once there are enough off the shelf parts to choose from, making alternate supermods won't be so damn hard.

You have a mod running a campaign that's not really finished (mine, or RSRD), for example. If either of use decides to do something novel for a desired campaign effect, it might require patching the various supermods in multiple places to make it work. Since they are not finished, that likelihood is somewhat high.

Ditto with NSM, ROW, etc.

At some point, the various mods will stabilize, then any would-be supermodder can make his own out of parts (tweaking where required for his vision), and publish it.

Right now RFB and TM are forced to build a car out of unfinished parts, with other parts simply missing. Makes it pretty hard.

[Ducimus]

@ work atm, and can't (shouldn't) post much.

So ill just link the other thread on the ubi forums with my response in it instead:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6421019045/m/4811062616?r=1581072616#1581072616

Subsims been laggy for me the last day or two.

[AVGWarhawk]

Right now RFB and TM are forced to build a car out of unfinished parts, with other parts simply missing. Makes it pretty hard.

Yes it is hard Tater. But they are coming around. It takes time. Get the base model car up to snuff then start super tuning it. The mods I use now make for a great mod package. We have to understand that it is learning process as each unfinished part is completed. In all reality, someone needs sit down and discuss with the other modders involved on where they want to go with this mod. Once this is agreed upon, each modder select the portion he wants to work on or is his strong suit. Once this is on the table, then work together for the common goal of a super mod.

[swdw]

First, let me state right off that I'm with AVG, the free exchange of information, techniques, tools, etc benefits everyone. There are possibilities as of yet unexplored, and every new set of eyeballs is a potential novelty that we might use.

With that out there, supermods can assemble component parts with much of it "off the shelf," or at least off the shelf with minor tweaks.

Which, as you know, is escatly what's been going on with RFB. Different minimods are rolled in and any possible everwrites are taken care of. Sometimes the minimodder helps. sometimes the RFB crew does the merging.

THis is why AVG is calling RFB a supermod, although it isn't there yet. When RSRD and ROW hit the point where Leo and Lurker give the go ahead, you'll see RFB plus (for lack of a better term at the moment). One download, but the ROW and RSRD folders will still be seperate. however they'll appear in JSGM numbered to appear in their install order.

Example:
01- ROW
02- RFB
03- RSRD

IN JSGME, if you highlight all of them at once and hit activate, it starts from the top down activating each mod. Everything installs in order. Will even be a couple of optional ones. I did this with ROW- numbered them the way they are in the ROW thread and boy does it make things easy.

Anyway, thre's more to that idea you'll see when things are at that point

As for tater talking about documentation, I agree and that'll come when RFB comes out of the release candidate state. One thing that frustrated me when I first strated looking into the bigger mods was not having a clear list of which mini-mods were rolled into it so I wouldn't duplicate stuff or messs something up.

Lurker has a list of every file used in RSRD other modders can look at. This would be a good start for all of us to do. So I'll get one out for RFB in a couple of days and post a link to the file in the first RFB topic. next would come annotating the changes. Beery and others did this in text files for RFB 1.31 by adding comments you could read in the file itself. More difficult in the hex files, but a readme would cover that.

I agree with Ducimus that options are good because a player can fit the game to their personality- which is why the idea of a GWX all ruling mod for SH4 doesn't appeal to me.

[AVGWarhawk]

THis is why AVG is calling RFB a supermod, although it isn't there yet.

Not there yet but getting there! Add RSRD and ROW, you have the foundation of the supermod. Super tune after that!


IN JSGME, if you highlight all of them at once and hit activate, it starts from the top down activating each mod. Everything installs in order. Will even be a couple of optional ones. I did this with ROW- numbered them the way they are in the ROW thread and boy does it make things easy.



That is a new one on me. What a great tool and to be able to load all up at once. Fantastic!

Put your heads together and come up with a plan. It is all in what kind of time you are willing to put into it. Just one simple request, please acknowlege everyones work that went into it. Then again, I do not have to mention that, you guys know that already:up:

Just a thought that occured to me. To make a few mod packs that are not super realisitic or a mod pack that is fun and easy to play, what elements need to be taken out? For starters, torpedoes that don't fail is probably the biggest. Keep the heavy traffic of the original game as is for the bang bang shoot'em up players! Basically I see two mods to work over. Super realistic and middle of the road. More than likely, a lot will switch over ot the super realistic from the middle of the road as they get more engrossed with the game.

Great job guys! Thanks for your time, interest and efforts in modding this game.:rock:

[kiwi_2005]

The great thing about SH4 is the modders dont really need to worry about making the graphics any better cause the game came with great graphics out of the box, concentrating on the AI and making them uber and smoothing out the odd bits is really all that needs to be done. Im running TM at the moment have not yet tried RSRD or ROW or are they part of TM? Will take a look..

[AVGWarhawk]

The great thing about SH4 is the modders dont really need to worry about making the graphics any better cause the game came with great graphics out of the box, concentrating on the AI and making them uber and smoothing out the odd bits is really all that needs to be done. Im running TM at the moment have not yet tried RSRD or ROW or are they part of TM? Will take a look..

When you load up ROW, you will find that graphics can be improved! TM has a file that is ROW compatible.:up: Load it up and take a look at the new Pacific under the ROW sky.:yep:

[Peto]

This is good. I would define this thread as modders putting on a mutual thinking cap :yep:. Another possibility I was thinking of would be to collect mods compatible for TM in one place for download. Same for add-ons for RFB etc. If all the mods and compatible "enhancers" were located in one download site, it may save a lot of questions. Which in turn, leads to more time for modding.

Now--if I could only get my new mod ideas to work :damn:.

:up: