Who will be the next President of the United States?

[CCIP]

Yowch!

Question for y'all -

Who do you think will end up being McCain's running mate? Does it look like Romney has a good chance?

I'd like to see Giuliani, but frankly - seeing how McCain has to win over the conservative crowd, doesn't seem like he's likely in any way to get that.

[Skybird]

Perspectives to be expected from our side of the pond:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-533754,00.html

Whatever choice US voters ultimately make, however, Europeans will wake up on that cold January morning to find a government whose foreign policy choices, while clothed in a different raiment, will look more like the ones they've gotten used to, rather than ones that make a clear break with the past.

that'S what I meant when repeatedly saying that I do not expect as many substantial changes like all this talking about Reps versus Dems and change and new beginning seem to suggest. It could even become more difficult for Europe to handle America. Rejecting to obey a bullying cowboy is an easy task, and recommends itself. Needing to argue with an opponent who is charming and witty, is more difficult.

[dean_acheson]

Perspectives to be expected from our side of the pond:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-533754,00.html

Whatever choice US voters ultimately make, however, Europeans will wake up on that cold January morning to find a government whose foreign policy choices, while clothed in a different raiment, will look more like the ones they've gotten used to, rather than ones that make a clear break with the past.

that'S what I meant when repeatedly saying that I do not expect as many substantial changes like all this talking about Reps versus Dems and change and new beginning seem to suggest. It could even become more difficult for Europe to handle America. Rejecting to obey a bullying cowboy is an easy task, and recommends itself. Needing to argue with an opponent who is charming and witty, is more difficult.

Europe to 'handle' America? Maybe something is lost in translation there.

Allies don't 'handle' each other. They talk about differences, do things together when interests conincide, and try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when they don't.

Chirac and Schroder didn't seem to get that.

[Tchocky]

Flying in the Obvious Balloon, I declare - Neither did Rumsfeld

[fatty]

Looks like Mitt has dropped out.

Could one perhaps say, then, that he has...

...ad-Mitt-ed defeat?

:hmm:

[Skybird]

Allies don't 'handle' each other. They talk about differences, do things together when interests conincide, and try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when they don't.

Chirac and Schroder didn't seem to get that.

Nor did Rumsfeld and Bush, who behaved as if all others were just vasalls.

[geetrue]

Yowch!

Question for y'all -

Who do you think will end up being McCain's running mate? Does it look like Romney has a good chance?

I'd like to see Giuliani, but frankly - seeing how McCain has to win over the conservative crowd, doesn't seem like he's likely in any way to get that.

With McCain being 72 now and 73 by the time he takes office and 76 to decide to run again in 2012, makes me think of someone not only younger, but someone being groomed for the next presidential race in 2012.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I51904-2005Feb24L

My pick for vice president is Dr. Condoleezza Rice ... :up:

This would of course counter a Clinton/Obama run for the White House, but she would probably pick her old friend Al Gore.

[Happy Times]

Yowch!

Question for y'all -

Who do you think will end up being McCain's running mate? Does it look like Romney has a good chance?

I'd like to see Giuliani, but frankly - seeing how McCain has to win over the conservative crowd, doesn't seem like he's likely in any way to get that.

With McCain being 72 now and 73 by the time he takes office and 76 to decide to run again in 2012, makes me think of someone not only younger, but someone being groomed for the next presidential race in 2012.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I51904-2005Feb24L

My pick for vice president is Dr. Condoleezza Rice ... :up:

This would of course counter a Clinton/Obama run for the White House, but she would probably pick her old friend Al Gore.

Obama Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKsoXHYICqU

McCain Mama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IYrI-3ksyk

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[August]

Some interesting McCain remarks:

http://www.examiner.com/blogs/Yeas_and_Nays/2008/2/7/Text-of-John-McCains-CPAC-Remarks

This part in particular impressed me. Refreshing to hear a pol speak in such definitive terms:

As you know, I was deprived of liberty for a time in my life, and while my love of liberty is no greater than yours, you can be confident that mine is the equal of any American's. It is a deep and unwavering love. My life experiences in service to our country inform my political judgments. They are at the core of my convictions. I am pro-life and an advocate for the Rights of Man everywhere in the world because of them, because I know that to be denied liberty is an offense to nature and nature's Creator. I will never waver in that conviction, I promise you. I know in this country our liberty will not be seized in a political revolution or by a totalitarian government. But, rather, as Burke warned, it can be "nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." I am alert to that risk and will defend against it, and ta ke comfort from the knowledge that I will be encouraged in that defense by my fellow conservatives.

You have heard me say before that for all my reputation as a maverick, I have only found true happiness in serving a cause greater than my self-interest. For me, that cause has always been our country, and the ideals that have made us great. I have been her imperfect servant for many years, and I have made many mistakes. You can attest to that, but need not. For I know them well myself. But I love her deeply and I will never, never tire of the honor of serving her. I cannot do that without your counsel and support. And I am grateful, very grateful, that you have given me this opportunity to ask for it.

[CCIP]

See, this is why I always like McCain personally. Say what you will, but he's a respectable guy. Again, I wouldn't vote for him based just on that, but this is the sort of stuff that will get him votes come election time.

[AVGWarhawk]

Some interesting McCain remarks:

http://www.examiner.com/blogs/Yeas_and_Nays/2008/2/7/Text-of-John-McCains-CPAC-Remarks

This part in particular impressed me. Refreshing to hear a pol speak in such definitive terms:

As you know, I was deprived of liberty for a time in my life, and while my love of liberty is no greater than yours, you can be confident that mine is the equal of any American's. It is a deep and unwavering love. My life experiences in service to our country inform my political judgments. They are at the core of my convictions. I am pro-life and an advocate for the Rights of Man everywhere in the world because of them, because I know that to be denied liberty is an offense to nature and nature's Creator. I will never waver in that conviction, I promise you. I know in this country our liberty will not be seized in a political revolution or by a totalitarian government. But, rather, as Burke warned, it can be "nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." I am alert to that risk and will defend against it, and ta ke comfort from the knowledge that I will be encouraged in that defense by my fellow conservatives.

You have heard me say before that for all my reputation as a maverick, I have only found true happiness in serving a cause greater than my self-interest. For me, that cause has always been our country, and the ideals that have made us great. I have been her imperfect servant for many years, and I have made many mistakes. You can attest to that, but need not. For I know them well myself. But I love her deeply and I will never, never tire of the honor of serving her. I cannot do that without your counsel and support. And I am grateful, very grateful, that you have given me this opportunity to ask for it.



Truly spoken from his heart. Yes, he has had his freedom stripped. He may have some strange ideals but all in all, he is a decent guy.

[Onkel Neal]

If you go back, I said a few months or so ago McCain would be the next President. I still stand by that prediction.


Yeah, but you didn't say it in the poll, and that's what counts ;)


And now, we are down to a few Nostrodamusses (sp):

Hillary Clinton
AVGWarhawk, bybyx, Carotio, Chock, CptJoker, Delareon, DR_Woody, Fallen, fatty, GT182, Herr_Pete, iratecabbie, jimbuna, Johann Vilthomsen, JSLTIGER, Konovalov, Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg, Lurchi, mr chris, NEON DEON, RamRod, shevlin, TarJak, Tchocky, XabbaRus

Mike Huckabee
bookworm_020, danurve, geetrue, Kapitan_Phillips, Sixpack, The WosMan, VonHammer

John McCain
AG124, donut, Iceman, MothBalls, wetgoat

Barack Obama
badhat17, Biggles, Blacklight, Bort, DAB, Fish, GunnerGreg, headcase, Lagger123987, Peto, RickC Sniper, Stealth Hunter, Zepheron




http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I51904-2005Feb24L

My pick for vice president is Dr. Condoleezza Rice ... :up:


I would be all over that.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oaD9oM4xQo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWlUc8ip5hc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGaZsAeMKFo

all those candidates just got owned... funny how Ron Paul is still running , yet Romney is out... first there were 12.. then there is 3.. :rock:

[August]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oaD9oM4xQo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWlUc8ip5hc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGaZsAeMKFo

all those candidates just got owned... funny how Ron Paul is still running , yet Romney is out... first there were 12.. then there is 3.. :rock:

You can :rock:all you want but Ron Paul has no possible chance of winning enough delegates to secure the nomination. At this point he's just spending his supporters money.

[Jimbuna]

If you go back, I said a few months or so ago McCain would be the next President. I still stand by that prediction.


Yeah, but you didn't say it in the poll, and that's what counts ;)


And now, we are down to a few Nostrodamusses (sp):

Hillary Clinton
AVGWarhawk, bybyx, Carotio, Chock, CptJoker, Delareon, DR_Woody, Fallen, fatty, GT182, Herr_Pete, iratecabbie, jimbuna, Johann Vilthomsen, JSLTIGER, Konovalov, Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg, Lurchi, mr chris, NEON DEON, RamRod, shevlin, TarJak, Tchocky, XabbaRus

Mike Huckabee
bookworm_020, danurve, geetrue, Kapitan_Phillips, Sixpack, The WosMan, VonHammer

John McCain
AG124, donut, Iceman, MothBalls, wetgoat

Barack Obama
badhat17, Biggles, Blacklight, Bort, DAB, Fish, GunnerGreg, headcase, Lagger123987, Peto, RickC Sniper, Stealth Hunter, Zepheron




http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I51904-2005Feb24L

My pick for vice president is Dr. Condoleezza Rice ... :up:


I would be all over that.

Can I change my vote ? I'm not sure precisely who I voted for now. I never saw Billarys name up there. :hmm:

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/2447/billaryty9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[dean_acheson]

If you go back, I said a few months or so ago McCain would be the next President. I still stand by that prediction.


Yeah, but you didn't say it in the poll, and that's what counts ;)


And now, we are down to a few Nostrodamusses (sp):

Hillary Clinton
AVGWarhawk, bybyx, Carotio, Chock, CptJoker, Delareon, DR_Woody, Fallen, fatty, GT182, Herr_Pete, iratecabbie, jimbuna, Johann Vilthomsen, JSLTIGER, Konovalov, Kptlt. Hellmut Neuerburg, Lurchi, mr chris, NEON DEON, RamRod, shevlin, TarJak, Tchocky, XabbaRus

Mike Huckabee
bookworm_020, danurve, geetrue, Kapitan_Phillips, Sixpack, The WosMan, VonHammer

John McCain
AG124, donut, Iceman, MothBalls, wetgoat

Barack Obama
badhat17, Biggles, Blacklight, Bort, DAB, Fish, GunnerGreg, headcase, Lagger123987, Peto, RickC Sniper, Stealth Hunter, Zepheron




Well, I voted for Fred, I guess I never expected him to BECOME President, I just wanted him to be the next President.

But I'm fine with McCain.

OBH would be an unmitigated disaster.

[Tchocky]

OBH would be an unmitigated disaster.

Who?

[dean_acheson]

whoops, got the initals wrong.

Barak Hussein Obama

[elite_hunter_sh3]

key word Hussein.... :shifty:
Mccain = "100 MORE YEARS in iraq"
Clinton = communist
Huckabee= same as mccain only anti illegal immigrant amnesty...
Obama= same as McCain, not gonna change anything, its gonna stay the same way it is now ( declining economy etc..) :shifty:


google: diebold voting machine rigging

[Kapitan_Phillips]

key word Hussein.... :shifty:

Once again I am astounded by your logic.

[Peto]

Still not going to say who I'm voting for because I'm still not positive. But I'm enjoying this primary bout very much.

My current stance (from an independant/objective view):

Democrats will sweep in November regardless of who Earns the candidacy. Voting turnout has been better for them and the number is growing. Some precincts in Wahington reported 100-150% greater turn-out than 4 years previous. They are motivated while the Republicans are still wishing McCain to be more conservative. Republicans still appear to be divided even though it's pretty clear who thier front-runner will be. I'll bet a half-bottle of Gallo White Port that when the time comes, the Democrats will not be as divided...

I believe Republicans would have a better chance if they would embrace a more moderate point of view. At least for this election. Independants are not looking for Conservative values. They are looking for someone who can reach a majority of Americans--not just those on the extreme left or right. Independants are naturally more moderate and will turn away from extremes this year. Especially the extreme right. For the Republicans to push an extreme conservative position is to lose Independants--and the White House.

I believe there are some candidates running who truly are good people. Currently, there is only one left that I don't feel like I can trust to not be self-serving. That's not to say that I think they would all do a great job...

I'm glad and encouraged to see the young voter turn-out this year. Hopefully, thier enthusiasm will be rewarded with a strong future in a revived country.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

its really funny how McCain's standing coencides with an Israeli Newspaper rating :roll:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerPage.jhtml

funny how Ron Paul isnt even on there.. :roll::roll:

[Onkel Neal]

its really funny how McCain's standing coencides with an Israeli Newspaper rating :roll:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerPage.jhtml

funny how Ron Paul isnt even on there.. :roll::roll:

Thankfully, we can stop talking about Ron Paul (http://ronpaul2008.typepad.com/ron_paul_2008/2008/02/message-from-ro.html) now.

[Von Tonner]

Watching her on tv after these back to back wins of Obama she looks drawn, lost, worn out and stunned. It is clear she never ever saw this coming - such is her and Bill's ego.
Obama has won more votes than her.
Obama has raised more money than her.
Obama has won more states than her.
Obame has more pledged delegates than her.
Obama draws bigger crowds than her.
Obama has more influential endorsements than her.
And so it goes on.



Re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic ain't going to cut it.
Hopefully, this will close the chapter on the Clintons. I find them deceitful, shallow and egotistical to extreme.

It is going to be very interesting to see which way Edwards will go - will he throw her a life-line? Doubt it.



Interesting article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3341925.ece





"The biggest shock was that she had to lend her own campaign $5m (£2.56m) in January after Obama raised $32m seemingly effortlessly from small donors that month. She kept the news quiet before Super Tuesday lest it gave the impression that her candidacy was floundering. Her rival, whom she chided in a debate for keeping an untidy desk, had broken the Clintons’ mighty $118m money machine.
The plane flights where she mingled with journalists, pretending to be their stewardess and serving them peach cobbler, came about only because she could no longer afford a separate private plane, it emerged last week. A look at her financial returns revealed that $18,551.80 had been spent on an “event” at a Chicago steakhouse, $500,000 on parking fees and nearly $4m on political consultants in the run-up to Super Tuesday.
Obama’s aides stepped up the pressure this weekend by challenging Clinton to release her tax records and reveal the source of her personal $5m loan. “For someone who claims to be fully vetted, hiding a campaign loan from voters until after Super Tuesday and refusing to release your tax returns until after the primary doesn’t seem like the best way to prove that there are no surprises for the Republicans to find once they start digging,” said spokesman Bill Burton.
Obama warned last week that Republicans would find a new “dump-truck” of allegations to unload on her should she win and said: “I’ll just say that I’ve released my tax returns.” The Wall Street Journal has already drawn attention to the peculiar deal whereby Bill Clinton is set to receive a payoff of up to $20m from his friend Ron Burkle, his West Coast bachelor buddy, for severing relations with the Yucaipa group of companies, which are partly linked to the ruler of Dubai. Clinton believes that Obama will be “swiftboated” by the Republicans if he wins – a reference to the campaign to denigrate John Kerry, a Vietnam veteran, at the last election."

[AVGWarhawk]

its really funny how McCain's standing coencides with an Israeli Newspaper rating :roll:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerPage.jhtml

funny how Ron Paul isnt even on there.. :roll::roll:
Thankfully, we can stop talking about Ron Paul (http://ronpaul2008.typepad.com/ron_paul_2008/2008/02/message-from-ro.html) now.

Was there any discussion on Ron Paul?

[AVGWarhawk]

Either Obama is very smart or his campaign advisors are very smart. Today in Maryland Hillary is hanging around Annapolis MD and so is McCain. Were is Obama? He is at the University of Marland College Park Campus. Now here is a guy who already is drawing a huge crowd of young voters. Were does he go? Possibly the largest campus of young voting students not to mention the many other colleges within 1 hour of this campus that will draw a crowd.

[3Jane]

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9345/obamalm3.jpg

[dean_acheson]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23182456-28737,00.html

There is the obligatory Obama as messiah story, today from the Australian.

[Blacklight]

First off... we must know the dangers we face from the terrible secret of space...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E0ot9iJm_k

So therefore.... Shover Robot get my vote for 2008 !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-10ewA5pZsg

:D

[Happy Times]

I dont see why US couldnt afford healthcare and education for all, it pays itself back.
The richest country in the world has an infant mortality rate bigger than Cuba and illiteracy rate 3rd worst of developed nations. Im not even a socialist and dont understand this..

[geetrue]

Well, I am of the opinon that whoever wins McCain/Hillary/Obama it is up to God ...

http://www.biblecodedigest.com/

I believe in Bible Code and I believe President Bush was found in a matrix of Bible Code along with the words twin daughters nearby and I believe that if this present President Bush is so special to be included in something that is so hard to believe in.

Then why not this election too.

1. A God that pre-figured out everything that is going to happen in the next 3,300 years ahead of time.
2. God coded these future events including names of people yet to be born in the first four books of the old testament.
3. You have to wonder if it is a hoax for both Jews and Christians to believe (yet many do not). Why won't it go away?

I see God everywhere. I see how much he really cares ...

One thing I don't see is Obama going away anytime soon. If by some majestic miracle, Senator Hillary Clinton can defeat Senator Obama.

Where would he go?

He's not going to go hide like Senator Kerry is he?

He just very well may be the next President of the United States ...

I still believe God has the divine answer already in His plan to bless the United States of America, as He has done so many times in the past.

Don't flame me on this Bible Code belief ... this thread is about who the next President of the United States is.

I'll start another thread about Bible Code and the Obama matrix of being taken out of the race with an assassination.

[Myszkin]

'Who will be the next President of the United States?'

Who care? :roll:

[dean_acheson]

Most of us in the states do.

[geetrue]

As of this date:

DELEGATE RESULTS AS OF FEB 10,08

REPUBLICANS

McCain 724 70.4%
Romney 282 27.4%
Huckabee 246 23.9%
Paul 014 0.01%
Thompson 005 0.00%
Giuliani 001 0.00%
Hunter 001 0.00%

DEMOCRATS

Obama 947 50.5%
Clinton 897 48.0%
Edwards 026 0.01%
Richards 000 00.0%
Kucinich 000 00.0%
Biden 000 00.0%

LEADERS BY VOTES

REPUBLICANS

McCain 4,997,187
Romney 4,280,855
Huckabee 2,511,719
Paul 0,589,957
Giuliani 0,547,344
Thompson 0,243,178
Hunter 0,025,637
Keyes 0,025,467

DEMOCRATS

Obama 8,179,563
Clinton 7,992,391
Edwards 0,143,373
Richards 0,014,027
Kucinich 0,004,475
Biden 0,001,344
Gravel 0,000,642
Dodd 0,000,248

[Jimbuna]

'Who will be the next President of the United States?'

Who care? :roll:

Normally I would agree with you....but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world.

We should all care http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

[Sailor Steve]

I dont see why US couldnt afford healthcare and education for all, it pays itself back.
The richest country in the world has an infant mortality rate bigger than Cuba and illiteracy rate 3rd worst of developed nations. Im not even a socialist and dont understand this..
That's quite a change of topic, but I feel I have to answer it. Our high infant mortality rate is true, but it seems the vast majority of infant deaths is due to neglect and accidents, mainly auto. Why this is true I have no idea, but it has nothing to do with money, so the "richest nation in the world" charge has no validity.

Same with education. We already spend more on education per child than every country with higher literacy rates. Some people think it's the public schools which misspend the funds, and that private schools would be a better option. This is true in 'socialist' countries like Belgium, where government school funding is tied to the family and public schools must compete.

[Peto]

'Who will be the next President of the United States?'

Who care? :roll:

Normally I would agree with you....but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world.

We should all care http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif

I assume you mean 2nd to Neal Stevens. :hmm:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

'Who will be the next President of the United States?'

Who care? :roll:
Normally I would agree with you....but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world.

We should all care http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/621/thinkbigsw1.gif
I assume you mean 2nd to Neal Stevens. :hmm:


*hands you a tissue to wipe the brown from your nose* ;):rotfl:

[Peto]

*hands you a tissue to wipe the brown from your nose* ;):rotfl:

A well placed shot :lol:!

[Happy Times]

I dont see why US couldnt afford healthcare and education for all, it pays itself back.
The richest country in the world has an infant mortality rate bigger than Cuba and illiteracy rate 3rd worst of developed nations. Im not even a socialist and dont understand this.. That's quite a change of topic, but I feel I have to answer it. Our high infant mortality rate is true, but it seems the vast majority of infant deaths is due to neglect and accidents, mainly auto. Why this is true I have no idea, but it has nothing to do with money, so the "richest nation in the world" charge has no validity.

Same with education. We already spend more on education per child than every country with higher literacy rates. Some people think it's the public schools which misspend the funds, and that private schools would be a better option. This is true in 'socialist' countries like Belgium, where government school funding is tied to the family and public schools must compete.

I checked and you seem to be right, you spend on healthcare alone a lot of money. Where the hell is it going? Other countries get better results with less money.

[Skybird]

but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world.
Really...?:hmm:

[August]

Normally I would agree with you....but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world.

But only from 4 to 8 years... :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Can't think of anyone else who will have more influence on our planet :hmm:

(but I think I'm gonna hear a few names soon) :lol:

[Von Tonner]

but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world. Really...?:hmm:

I don't know why one has to ponder that assesment. The President of the USA is after all the commander in chief of the biggest and most advanced military force this world has ever seen. Being in command of that force has by definition got to make that office bearer the 'most powerful individual in the world'.:yep:

[Von Tonner]

Russia buzzes a US carrier and spends billions in cranking up her aging military force, China gets caught in espionage against the States - McCain must be loving this. The more the US electorate gets nervous the more his chance of winning the White House grows.

[August]

And then we find out about this:

Obama campaign office:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/29/20080211obamachehoustonsv4.jpg

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=5700252&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCod

Note the disclaimer which was recently added...

[Skybird]

but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world. Really...?:hmm:

I don't know why one has to ponder that assesment. The President of the USA is after all the commander in chief of the biggest and most advanced military force this world has ever seen. Being in command of that force has by definition got to make that office bearer the 'most powerful individual in the world'.:yep:
The president of the US is embebdded in a tight network of obligations, legal demands, mechanisms, dependencies on lobbies, interests and established networks and groups, as well as domestic prsssure, media pressure, needs to fulfill nterests and demands of his party, his or his party's voters, the intriocacies of future elections, prmmises being made to subgroups and interest groups before he was elected, needs deriving from keeping the economy running (more or less) etc etc etc. no president has the power to just sit and command, and everyone goes marching. Just look the massive campaigns and mass manipulation that were needed to gain GWB the support until he could dare to declare war on Iraq - it may have been planned ten years in advance, but the execution of that decision needed months and months of global manipulation in order to get much of the factors I mentione dbaove being supportive to his wish to attack Iraq.

It is all not so easy as if I would say "most powerful individual in the world". there are as many dependencies - if not more - a president is entangled in, as there are freedoms to make decisions and use America'S ressources at will.

And nthere is more in "power" than just military. Look at china, and what is called "soft power". They currently cannot match the american military on a global stage - but still they outmaneuver America, and take over the global influence that america had at the climax of it's power. Economic and financial power is far more important than just military power - as can be seen in the history of european nations of the past 500 years. So many great military powers had to give up, for the economy collapsed and their finance system broke down. Napoleon'S France should have truly become the leading superpower in Europe, for long times to come. He ailed: the military inferior small island of Britain proved to have then longer breath: for reasons of greater financial resposurces, and a more modern tax and banking system securing these. The powerful and for long time even superior Wehrmacht became vulnerable when it no longer could guarantee and secure free access to ressources needed for the war and the war production in German factories. Spain, Hungary/Austria both fell due to their economies and currencies collapsing under the might of military spendings. - Reminds this of some current actor, maybe? ;) So, power is much more than just military capacity. Only tunnel-viewed unawareness of historic precedences could lead to that assumption of firepower deciding it alone. In general, America seem to overestimate this dinosaur it is investing so many of it's more and more precious and spare ressources into - even ressources it does not have, and needs to lend from others. It does not need a rocket scientist that this trend sooner or later must hit a wall, for it vannot go forever. Only question is if you are prepared at the time of the event, or not. Currently, the answer is a total No.

[Skybird]

Russia buzzes a US carrier and spends billions in cranking up her aging military force, China gets caught in espionage against the States - McCain must be loving this. The more the US electorate gets nervous the more his chance of winning the White House grows.
russias and china's military spendings and activities are a boring breeze compared to american spendings and actions in these sectors. How many times is the american budget greater than that of Russia and China together? Bush wants 480 billion for 2008. China had 34 billion in 2007, germany had 28 billion, russia had 32 billion. With 420 billion in 2005 the American budget was greater than that of the next 160+ spending states together.

[dean_acheson]

Today's obligatory 'Obama's a mix between a rock star and Bobby Kennedy' story:

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2269063,00.html

[Von Tonner]

but this election is about who will become probably the most powerful individual in the world. Really...?:hmm:
I don't know why one has to ponder that assesment. The President of the USA is after all the commander in chief of the biggest and most advanced military force this world has ever seen. Being in command of that force has by definition got to make that office bearer the 'most powerful individual in the world'.:yep: The president of the US is embebdded in a tight network of obligations, legal demands, mechanisms, dependencies on lobbies, interests and established networks and groups, as well as domestic prsssure, media pressure, needs to fulfill nterests and demands of his party, his or his party's voters, the intriocacies of future elections, prmmises being made to subgroups and interest groups before he was elected, needs deriving from keeping the economy running (more or less) etc etc etc. no president has the power to just sit and command, and everyone goes marching. Just look the massive campaigns and mass manipulation that were needed to gain GWB the support until he could dare to declare war on Iraq - it may have been planned ten years in advance, but the execution of that decision needed months and months of global manipulation in order to get much of the factors I mentione dbaove being supportive to his wish to attack Iraq.

It is all not so easy as if I would say "most powerful individual in the world". there are as many dependencies - if not more - a president is entangled in, as there are freedoms to make decisions and use America'S ressources at will.

And nthere is more in "power" than just military. Look at china, and what is called "soft power". They currently cannot match the american military on a global stage - but still they outmaneuver America, and take over the global influence that america had at the climax of it's power. Economic and financial power is far more important than just military power - as can be seen in the history of european nations of the past 500 years. So many great military powers had to give up, for the economy collapsed and their finance system broke down. Napoleon'S France should have truly become the leading superpower in Europe, for long times to come. He ailed: the military inferior small island of Britain proved to have then longer breath: for reasons of greater financial resposurces, and a more modern tax and banking system securing these. The powerful and for long time even superior Wehrmacht became vulnerable when it no longer could guarantee and secure free access to ressources needed for the war and the war production in German factories. Spain, Hungary/Austria both fell due to their economies and currencies collapsing under the might of military spendings. - Reminds this of some current actor, maybe? ;) So, power is much more than just military capacity. Only tunnel-viewed unawareness of historic precedences could lead to that assumption of firepower deciding it alone. In general, America seem to overestimate this dinosaur it is investing so many of it's more and more precious and spare ressources into - even ressources it does not have, and needs to lend from others. It does not need a rocket scientist that this trend sooner or later must hit a wall, for it vannot go forever. Only question is if you are prepared at the time of the event, or not. Currently, the answer is a total No.

Skybird, the phrase 'commander in chief' places any debate in a military contex and not economical. But let us go along with your definition. There is no country in the world that can threaten the USA in whatever way where the 'commander in chief' irespective of ALL the other domestic factors cannot respond immediately. For example, do you honestly believe that if all oil producing states tomorow decided to stop supplying the US with oil you do not think that whoever sat in the White House does not have the means to correct that misguided judgement. No other country in the world has that luxury - not Germany, the Uk, China etc etc. Therefore, without labouring the point, the president of the US is without doubt the most powerful individual in the world.

[TteFAboB]

Obama is the favourite candidate of anti-american foreign journalists, columnists and the like. One point for Hillary then.

[Von Tonner]

Russia buzzes a US carrier and spends billions in cranking up her aging military force, China gets caught in espionage against the States - McCain must be loving this. The more the US electorate gets nervous the more his chance of winning the White House grows. russias and china's military spendings and activities are a boring breeze compared to american spendings and actions in these sectors. How many times is the american budget greater than that of Russia and China together? Bush wants 480 billion for 2008. China had 34 billion in 2007, germany had 28 billion, russia had 32 billion. With 420 billion in 2005 the American budget was greater than that of the next 160+ spending states together.

You are missing the point again. I'm not talking economics, hell it could be a banana republic whose tin pot dictator found a nuke under his bed and woke up in the morning threatning the US with it. ANY military threat, build up, display, arrogance - you name it, from any country deemed hostile to the US has got to work in McCains favour. It has absolutely nothing to do with how much a country spends on its military. I mentioned Russia's military spend within the CONTEXT of its public posture to the US.

[Von Tonner]

Obama is the favourite candidate of anti-american foreign journalists, columnists and the like. One point for Hillary then.

:huh:

[Skybird]

You talked of the "most powerful individual in the world". thus my response.

As CINC, the president may be a powrful figure indeed. But still, be careful to call him the most powerful individual just becasue of thos circumstance. You overestimate the importance of military power. Fact is that the Us is more depending of foreign nations and interests than it could be pleased with to admit. since a while now there are first signs that the dollar will never be the important leading currency that is once was. OPEC openly speculates about abandoning it. china wants to avoid loosing billions from sticking to dollar reserves, and if it starts for real to transofrm it's reserves into Euros, there is nothing you can do abiut that but suffer the smashing consequecnes to your finacial system and economy. Your military helps you nothing in that. I honestly doubt that the US miulitary is able anymore to wage and win a major war within the Chinese sphere of influence anymore. the war in ieraq has not and will not been ended with a clear military victory. nor the war in Afghanistan. that should put your entzhusiams of military power into relation a bit. Fact is that there is a monumental debts level, and stellar budget defiict, major poarts of the Us economy having go0ne or are going offworld and folliwng the cheaper labour elsewhere, and steel industry beinh heavily overaged, the car industry as well, and the US due to the war production it lived by since end of WWII and never switched back to civilian standards being dependent on oumping more and more money into that defense sector, if no0fr no toher reason than to keep at least that part of the industry alive and healthy. This causes nevertheless massive hurtings to american overall budget. And all this whuile being heavily dependant on the good will of foreign nations to keep on transfering immense volumes of money into the finacial market of the Us where the money often just dissapears. But some gulf states, china, several european poltiicians have shown more and mor willingness to allow this going on forever. The corrent stockmarket crisis, which is far from being over: you better believe that, and the triggering mortage crisis did not really helpt to make this trend going reverse. the ameircan economy design is no longer capable to live all by it'S own effort and fiannce the state and the military all by it's own effort - and this dependency simply leaves the Us more vulnerable than prpoud americans thinking just in terms of who has the bigger battleship are likely to admit. Again, China is outmaneuvering the Us right now - and it even does not need it's military for that. If the american CINC is so powerful and military is all that counts - I wonder why this could be, then.

But these issues have been discussed repeatedly, and with no result. So people have to wait and see who was right in the late months of 2007, and early months of 2008.

For example, do you honestly believe that if all oil producing states tomorow decided to stop supplying the US with oil you do not think that whoever sat in the White House does not have the means to correct that misguided judgement.

Misguided judgement? Get back to your senses. Essentially you say this: their oil is all yours, and thinking different from the US being the navel of the earth is just a mental disease that you will cure with your big stick. that's exactly the kind of arrogant attitude that earns america so much sympathy all over the globe. And btw, if oil deals turn to be done in euros not dollars, this alone would deloiver the american economy and the finances a very massive blow. It means that you have no longer a concession to print money as you like, need and feel fit. ;)

[geetrue]

Haven't you noticed that they sell commercial's on just about all of those news stations we watch, except PBS maybe.

Sponcers pay the bills ... generate news, any news and the money flows in.

When there is no news people move on ...

Believe half of what you hear, part of what you see, means welcome to maturity.

P.S. Did you hear why the democratic and republican conventions are so late in the year? (end of August and beginning of September)

Due to Federal matching funds for the men and women running for office, that's why ... :roll:

[August]

P.S. Did you hear why the democratic and republican conventions are so late in the year? (end of August and beginning of September)

Due to Federal matching funds for the men and women running for office, that's why ... :roll:

Then how do you explain the fact that those conventions were held during the same time periods long before anyone thought of the concept of matching funds?

[geetrue]

P.S. Did you hear why the democratic and republican conventions are so late in the year? (end of August and beginning of September)

Due to Federal matching funds for the men and women running for office, that's why ... :roll:

Then how do you explain the fact that those conventions were held during the same time periods long before anyone thought of the concept of matching funds?

Uhmm, lets see that's easy ... uh, no airconditioning? :D

[August]

P.S. Did you hear why the democratic and republican conventions are so late in the year? (end of August and beginning of September)

Due to Federal matching funds for the men and women running for office, that's why ... :roll:
Then how do you explain the fact that those conventions were held during the same time periods long before anyone thought of the concept of matching funds?
Uhmm, lets see that's easy ... uh, no airconditioning? :D

:lol::lol::lol:

[Von Tonner]

You talked of the "most powerful individual in the world". thus my response.

As CINC, the president may be a powrful figure indeed. But still, be careful to call him the most powerful individual just becasue of thos circumstance. You overestimate the importance of military power. Fact is that the Us is more depending of foreign nations and interests than it could be pleased with to admit. since a while now there are first signs that the dollar will never be the important leading currency that is once was. OPEC openly speculates about abandoning it. china wants to avoid loosing billions from sticking to dollar reserves, and if it starts for real to transofrm it's reserves into Euros, there is nothing you can do abiut that but suffer the smashing consequecnes to your finacial system and economy. Your military helps you nothing in that. I honestly doubt that the US miulitary is able anymore to wage and win a major war within the Chinese sphere of influence anymore. the war in ieraq has not and will not been ended with a clear military victory. nor the war in Afghanistan. that should put your entzhusiams of military power into relation a bit. Fact is that there is a monumental debts level, and stellar budget defiict, major poarts of the Us economy having go0ne or are going offworld and folliwng the cheaper labour elsewhere, and steel industry beinh heavily overaged, the car industry as well, and the US due to the war production it lived by since end of WWII and never switched back to civilian standards being dependent on oumping more and more money into that defense sector, if no0fr no toher reason than to keep at least that part of the industry alive and healthy. This causes nevertheless massive hurtings to american overall budget. And all this whuile being heavily dependant on the good will of foreign nations to keep on transfering immense volumes of money into the finacial market of the Us where the money often just dissapears. But some gulf states, china, several european poltiicians have shown more and mor willingness to allow this going on forever. The corrent stockmarket crisis, which is far from being over: you better believe that, and the triggering mortage crisis did not really helpt to make this trend going reverse. the ameircan economy design is no longer capable to live all by it'S own effort and fiannce the state and the military all by it's own effort - and this dependency simply leaves the Us more vulnerable than prpoud americans thinking just in terms of who has the bigger battleship are likely to admit. Again, China is outmaneuvering the Us right now - and it even does not need it's military for that. If the american CINC is so powerful and military is all that counts - I wonder why this could be, then.

But these issues have been discussed repeatedly, and with no result. So people have to wait and see who was right in the late months of 2007, and early months of 2008.

For example, do you honestly believe that if all oil producing states tomorow decided to stop supplying the US with oil you do not think that whoever sat in the White House does not have the means to correct that misguided judgement.
Misguided judgement? Get back to your senses. Essentially you say this: their oil is all yours, and thinking different from the US being the navel of the earth is just a mental disease that you will cure with your big stick. that's exactly the kind of arrogant attitude that earns america so much sympathy all over the globe. And btw, if oil deals turn to be done in euros not dollars, this alone would deloiver the american economy and the finances a very massive blow. It means that you have no longer a concession to print money as you like, need and feel fit. ;)

Ok Skybird lets put it simply. The US finds itself the villian of the world for whatever reason. Its citizens are starving, new born babies are dying, factories are shut down because of lack of power, the stock market has gone belly up, farmers can't farm - lack of fuel, it is under sanctioned UN sanctions (much like other countries have undergone, SA, Rhodesia etc) but hey, it has this military might BUT oh no commander in chief you can't send that nuke off because THEIR OIL IS THEIRS - let our babies die. Get real Skybird. When it comes to survival, morals, ethics, dipolmacy, what is right what is wrong has no place in this equation - whatever secures your survival as a race, nation, identity, existence as a group however you want or wish to define is RIGHT. And because of that simple truth, that is why homosapiens rule the world.

So to come back to the origial premise. The president of the US is the most powerful individual in the world is a fact. Simply because under his command is the biggest military might this world has ever seen, put their and maintained by US tax payers to ensure their survival regardless of whose oil it is. Survival is survival whatever the cost - failure to accept that simple truth relagates you and your like to the trash heap of history.

[dean_acheson]

Reports of the demise of the U.S. are, as they were in the 1970s, 80s, and early 90s, are a tad bit premature. In fact, a last year I dropped my Economist subscription. I read it for about ten years, but realized after the first five that it was always predicting the end of the U.S. led world economy.

Yes, the Euro is going to replace the dollar, I'll hold my breath waiting for that, yes, this will be the Chinese century, blah blah blah.

Of course, if we kill off the free market, we'll end up that way, but I doubt it, for the forseeable future.

Things always seem gloomy during an election cycle, whichever party is on the outs talks up all the more dreary parts of the economy/foreign affairs/etc.

Having said all of that, I had a professor who used to say in every class session "where you stand depends on where you sit" and it never ceases strike me that those who live in countries that have no military power claim that military 'hard' power isn't as relative as 'soft' power. Those on the left always talk down 'hard' power too, since they hate the idea that a military takes away from their free school lunch programs or saving the wales, or free needles for IV users, or whatever the cause du jour is.

whatever.

'Soft' power wouldn't mean squat if not for a world held together by 'hard' power.

[Tchocky]

Those on the left always talk down 'hard' power too, since they hate the idea that a military takes away from their free school lunch programs or saving the wales, or free needles for IV users, or whatever the cause du jour is.

whatever. Woof woof! Instant characterisation.

[Skybird]

Ok Skybird lets put it simply. The US finds itself ... (...) ... like to the trash heap of history.
If I ever come around to see it as queer as you do, I will be amongst the first to call for nuking the USA totally in a clear case of self-defense - and call it preemptive warfare against terror. Thank god I have a far better opinion of the US than you have yourself - if that does not come as a surprise for some... right now, the US repeats the same old, long-lknown mistakes european states have done before in the past centuries - and failed. And that hardly can be seen as a clever strategy for survival.

[dean_acheson]

Those on the left always talk down 'hard' power too, since they hate the idea that a military takes away from their free school lunch programs or saving the wales, or free needles for IV users, or whatever the cause du jour is.

whatever. Woof woof! Instant characterisation.

http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/bakesale.jpg

Yeah, that kinda was, wasn't it?

[AVGWarhawk]

Those on the left always talk down 'hard' power too, since they hate the idea that a military takes away from their free school lunch programs or saving the wales, or free needles for IV users, or whatever the cause du jour is.

whatever. Woof woof! Instant characterisation.

http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/bakesale.jpg

Yeah, that kinda was, wasn't it?

That is funny Dean. I have never seen that before. Makes you think thought!

[dean_acheson]

Really?

I seem to see that bumper sticker everytime I'm near a college campus....but not to stereotype....

[geetrue]

Originally Posted by dean_acheson
Those on the left always talk down 'hard' power too, since they hate the idea that a military takes away from their free school lunch programs or saving the wales, or free needles for IV users, or whatever the cause du jour is.
whatever.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^

Dean is that the wales in the South Pacific or the Med or the welsh people your reffereing to ... ? :oops:

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Really?

I seem to see that bumper sticker everytime I'm near a college campus....but not to stereotype....

Hah, my girlfriend's father is a college Dean. He doesnt have a bumper sticker, but I hear he sings Okie from Muskogee very loudly sometimes.

Particularly the line "And kids they still respect the college Dean"

:rotfl:

Funny unrelated story, when I was over visiting, we sort of bonded by singing in the car. Much to the embarassment of the poor lass sat next to me :88)

[Tchocky]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/12/22/candidates_on_executive_power_a_full_spectrum/

A Q&A on executive power.

My favourite is Giuliani's :p

[sonar732]

I can't find the political post where you state your positions and your result is graphed according to the canidates. Wanted to send it to a few people.

[Tchocky]

Political Compass maybe?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/usprimaries_2008.png

politicalcompass.org

[geetrue]

Please explain left and right and conservative ...

I don't understand why so many people are against McCain, because they are conservatives ...

Sounds like the establishment is conservative and in years past if you weren't like them ... You didn't get their support.

What were past Presidents?

Yes, I googled first

resistant to change


Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.

[Skybird]

After Obama's latest wins, momentum seems to be on his side. Something tells me that McCain will get the more uncomfortable opponent of the two democratic candidates. Clinton must win Texas, they say, and that no lponger is a given, and she cannot afford to loose the other states by too great a margin anymore. I would prefer her not to make it - if her makes it into the WH, it unavoidably would mean that Bill also gets a third half of gametime. Hell, they are married - has anybody expectet Hillary to get divorced if she becomes president? GWB should have been banned from elections for his father having been president, and for comparable reasons of Bill being her husband and having been former president, Hillary should have been banned from candidate race as well. The presidency probably was not meant to become a family business.

[August]

The presidency probably was not meant to become a family business.

I agree but considering that the practice dates back to 1825 and the Bush's are (iirc) the third family to have more than one member occupying the oval office there would be considerable precedent to overcome.

It probably would require an amendment to the constitution which is a very big deal over here.

[FAdmiral]

Last year, I based my vote on the candidate that would give me answers on
my 3 core topics:

1. Eliminate the IRS and adopt the Fairtax
2. Limit Congress terms to ??? years like Governers & Presidents
3. Eliminate the entire NEED for fossel fuel in our transportation system

So far, only Mike H. has endorced #1
No one has ever mentioned #2
#3 has applied a bandage only lightly by a very few

Democratic President = BIG programs resulting in HIGHER taxes (given)
Republican President = Better than above but still not all that it can be

BOTTOM LINE: I want to live my life like I play my games. I want to make
the choices, not the game devs or the government. Just give me all my
resources and let me make the decisions on how to use them.....


JIM

[dean_acheson]

Political Compass maybe?

http://www.politicalcompass.org/images/usprimaries_2008.png

politicalcompass.org

I wonder who came up with the data for that?
Kucinich a libertarian? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

After Obama's latest wins, momentum seems to be on his side. Something tells me that McCain will get the more uncomfortable opponent of the two democratic candidates. Clinton must win Texas, they say, and that no lponger is a given, and she cannot afford to loose the other states by too great a margin anymore. I would prefer her not to make it - if her makes it into the WH, it unavoidably would mean that Bill also gets a third half of gametime. Hell, they are married - has anybody expectet Hillary to get divorced if she becomes president? GWB should have been banned from elections for his father having been president, and for comparable reasons of Bill being her husband and having been former president, Hillary should have been banned from candidate race as well. The presidency probably was not meant to become a family business.

I agree quite a bit here on the family business perspective. Not only that, Bill is starting to believe his half-truths as evident after the last two months concerning Obama and twisting the facts. At the moment, I think we are looking at a even race were the super-delegates make the choice for the democratic nomination. This sucks because it takes it out of the hands of the people. 2000 people (I think) who cast their vote for the democratic nomination. These are former democratic presidents, congressmen, etc. The Republicans do not have super-delegates. So, these powerful people and depending on how many rear-ends Hillary pats, will decide who gets the nomination. Do you think the voice of the people will be heard? Very doubtful and currently I think that voice is for Obama. I foresee the super-delegates picking Hillary. Lord help us and my checkbook:roll:

[Von Tonner]

Don't you just love these Clintons, superdelegates must decide NOT on the will of the people as expressed throught state primaries but on WHO WILL MAKE THE BEST PRESIDENT.
Ok, let me see if I understand this. Primaries are for show, a circus if you will. A charade where 'ordinary' folk get time to spend in long lines outside voting stations to give pretence to democracy.



"Clinton advisers have said that superdelegates should support the candidate who they believe would be the best nominee and the best president, while Obama advisers have argued that superdelegates should reflect the will of the voters and also take into account who they believe would be the best nominee."

[geetrue]

Don't you just love these Clintons, superdelegates must decide NOT on the will of the people as expressed throught state primaries but on WHO WILL MAKE THE BEST PRESIDENT.

"Clinton advisers have said that superdelegates should support the candidate who they believe would be the best nominee and the best president, while Obama advisers have argued that superdelegates should reflect the will of the voters and also take into account who they believe would be the best nominee."

Like I've said before, "it's going to get ugly"

If Hillary can win on March 4th in Texas or Ohio, it will come down to the super delegates.

Bill Clinton is one of the super delgates. I'm sure he will abstain, but still ...

[Von Tonner]

Bill Clinton is one of the super delgates. I'm sure he will abstain, but still ...

Yea, sure he will ... he will be trying to call in so many markers he will make a bookie look like he was selling cookies at a Sunday school fete:D

[dean_acheson]

bill abstain? are you kidding?

[Skybird]

John McCain Sells His Soul to the Right: Backs Off on Torture Ban (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/john-mccain-sells-his-sou_b_86700.html)

[August]

John McCain Sells His Soul to the Right: Backs Off on Torture Ban (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/john-mccain-sells-his-sou_b_86700.html)

Skybird, maybe being a foreigner you don't realize that you're quoting the lefts version of Ann Coulter?

[Peto]

Well--my choice is getting easier everyday.

[Von Tonner]

You have got to be kidding! A superdelegate who is just 21 years old, has never been inside a national ballot booth because he was only 17 at last presidential elections - and now could hold the deciding vote if this comes down to the wire in deciding who the Dem candidate will be and possibly the future president. We are talking about Jason Rae here, a precocious junior graduate whose cell phone number is on Bills and Hillarys speed dials. Hillary has already sent Chelsea down to his campus to have breakfast with him on a one to one and then complains when she is accused of pimping her daughter!




Rae was about to head out to dinner with friends when his phone rang and the screen said, "Number withheld." The voice on the other end said: "Please hold for the former president" and then a familiar voice said "Hey Jason, it's Bill here."
"I started to think, is this real? I am a junior in college and Bill Clinton is talking to me?" Rae said as he recalled the phone call.
Clinton talked about Hillary Clinton's electability and gave Rae an update on how things were looking on the ground in South Carolina. He then regaled Rae with stories about his travels to Wisconsin as president and the cities he visited during that time.



There are many things to admire about America's political system, however, the concept of superdelegates is not among them. I, as an ordinary American would feel positively put out if a kid, in the proverbial 'smoke filled room' could make or help to make the deciding vote in the choice of Democratic candidate after millions of Americans have voted their choice.

[dean_acheson]

John McCain Sells His Soul to the Right: Backs Off on Torture Ban (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/john-mccain-sells-his-sou_b_86700.html)


Ms Huffington. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianna_Huffington)

[Tchocky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Coulter

Ms Coulter - Possibly not apples to apples.

[geetrue]

Ok, a year from now, we will know (unless Florida has a problem reading their ballots). My question, who do you think will be the next President of the United States?

Closer and closer to Florida being the deciding factor again ...

Do you realize those Flordia delegates that voted for Hillary Clinton have been nulified by an earlier unauthorized primary?

I don't know how many there were, but this is history in the making ... :yep:

P.S. This just came in hot off the associated press: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hY742M_s1ttD_ycf2Zusn1o1fD3QD8URLU1O0


Harold Ickes, a top adviser to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign who voted for Democratic Party rules that stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates, now is arguing against the very penalty he helped pass.
In a conference call Saturday, the longtime Democratic Party member contended the DNC should reconsider its tough sanctions on the two states, which held early contests in violation of party rules. He said millions of voters in Michigan and Florida would be otherwise disenfranchised — before acknowledging moments later that he had favored the sanctions.
Ickes explained that his different position essentially is due to the different hats he wears as both a DNC member and a Clinton adviser in charge of delegate counting. Clinton won the primary vote in Michigan and Florida, and now she wants those votes to count.


The delegate vote count comes to: "delegate count stood at 1,280 for Obama and 1,218 for Clinton. If the DNC were to award Michigan and Florida's 313 delegates based on the vote in their primaries, she would be ahead because she won both states".

[geetrue]

Just ran across this unusal ocourance. Strange indeed ... :yep:

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=76&sid=27720


Obama Campaign Theatrics

--Producer Phil writes
A Wall Street Journal writer, James Taranto (http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110011130) , has uncovered a hilarious and puzzling coincidence at 5 different Sen. Obama campaign speeches over the last few months, including the recent speech in Seattle.
Dori and listeners have found one other Sen. Obama incident posted on YouTube where a person near the stage faints.
Sen. Obama responds to each incident with the same routine and phrases.
Is it phoney, orchestrated, manufactured campaign theatrics or is it merely physiological coincidence?
You be the judge.


They have a half dozen video's on the link above ...

Here's the video I found first:
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/48404.html

[Stealth Hunter]

John McCain Sells His Soul to the Right: Backs Off on Torture Ban (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/john-mccain-sells-his-sou_b_86700.html)

Skybird, maybe being a foreigner you don't realize that you're quoting the lefts version of Ann Coulter?

:rotfl:

Glad somebody pointed it out!

[Skybird]

John McCain Sells His Soul to the Right: Backs Off on Torture Ban (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/john-mccain-sells-his-sou_b_86700.html)

Skybird, maybe being a foreigner you don't realize that you're quoting the lefts version of Ann Coulter?

:rotfl:

Glad somebody pointed it out!
Whatever your animosity towards Ms Huffington is like - it is no argument pro or against the text's content. Only question is if it is true or not. According to American press releases, it is true.

Or as somebody commented over there:

That eloquent maverick, McCain,
Once deplored the infliction of pain.
But a swat on the tush
From the family Bush
Knocked his principles right down the drain.

For people that still get upset about Bill Clinton trying to hide his sexual preferences - completely his private business - , and shouting "Liar! Down with Clinton!", the frank display of double standards when it now comes to McCain and something uncomparably more serious is - stunning...

Strange priorities that are.

[Von Tonner]

Why is this up coming court case not been factored into Hillary's chances in Texas and Ohio? I also don't see it mentioned on news broadcasts - maybe just missing them.

"The Hillary Clinton Accountability Project (http://www.hillcap.org/) will shortly launch its fundraising drive to raise $500,000 to support the most important citizen’s legal initiative of 2008. The landmark civil fraud suit of Paul v Clinton et al (http://www.hillcap.org/) which the California Supreme Court ordered to proceed against the Clintons, Grammys Producer Gary Smith and Clinton agent Jim Levin, will be set for trial and a discovery schedule at a special conference to be held in Los Angeles Superior Court on February 21, 2008.
The first law suit in American history to bring a President and a Senator to court for defrauding the Senator’s largest campaign donor and his public company will be set for trial and discovery at the Case Management Conference before Judge Munoz. Discovery and depositions of key witnesses, including the Clinton family, Al Gore, Ed Rendell, Terry McAuliffe, Harold Ickes, Howard Wolfson, Kelly Craighead, Barbara Streisand, Brad Pitt, Larry King, Mike Wallace among an array of political and entertainment leaders, will present an inside look at a culture of corruption that will shock the public.
The history and significance of this lawsuit is featured in the internet phenomenon - documentary Hillary! Uncensored (http://www.equaljusticeproductions.com/) and in the court filings posted on the Hillary Clinton Accountability Project (http://www.hillcap.org/) web site."

[dean_acheson]

John McCain Sells His Soul to the Right: Backs Off on Torture Ban (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/john-mccain-sells-his-sou_b_86700.html)

Skybird, maybe being a foreigner you don't realize that you're quoting the lefts version of Ann Coulter?

:rotfl:

Glad somebody pointed it out!
Whatever your animosity towards Ms Huffington is like - it is no argument pro or against the text's content. Only question is if it is true or not. According to American press releases, it is true.

Or as somebody commented over there:

That eloquent maverick, McCain,
Once deplored the infliction of pain.
But a swat on the tush
From the family Bush
Knocked his principles right down the drain.

For people that still get upset about Bill Clinton trying to hide his sexual preferences - completely his private business - , and shouting "Liar! Down with Clinton!", the frank display of double standards when it now comes to McCain and something uncomparably more serious is - stunning...

Strange priorities that are.

Skybird, it does matter, since AH is an extreme partisan.

Read McCain's floor statement, it is on her attached article (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/todays_must_read_276.php). Some site name Muckraker.

She has severely misconstured it. Did you read it? I certainly don't think that it says what what she TWISTS it into saying.

Also, someone like AH, that grandmaster of all political flip-floppers, lecturing me on McCain not being a 'straight-talker' is really cute.

"This necessarily brings us to the question of waterboarding. Administration officials have stated in recent days that this technique is no longer in use, but they have declined to say that it is illegal under current law. I believe that it is clearly illegal and that we should publicly recognize this fact.
In assessing the legality of waterboarding, the Administration has chosen to apply a “shocks the conscience” analysis to its interpretation of the DTA. I stated during the passage of that law that a fair reading of the prohibition on cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment outlaws waterboarding and other extreme techniques. It is, or should be, beyond dispute that waterboarding “shocks the conscience.”

[Skybird]

I reject to follow your view. The version you give is not the news story I have read from CNN and NYT, and according precoverage of the WH meeting and McCains previous demands on torture. the man said one thing - and did exactly the other thing, now trying to make that plausible. As far as german media covered the events since decembre, they understood them the same way.anyway, I just wanted to scratch his polishing a bit. He is neither the superman nor the always-the-truth-speaking uber-leader. He is a usual politician, and has an according opportunistic short-time memory only, like almost all politicians. that is what one needs to be aware of. Personally, I do not like or trust any of the three (Huckabee is dreaming, imo) remaining candidates, and McCain is like Clinton and Obama driven by the same motivations and ambitions like other usual politicians.

[dean_acheson]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/william_rees_mogg/article3386292.ece

Then thank God Europeans can't vote here. We wouldn't need an elction, we have Obama. Across the pond he seems to be a wonderful mix of Jesus, JFK, and whatever the mushy multicultralism that passes for sensitive today.

As for 'rejecting my view' I guess I couldn't care less. Huffington mischaracterized McCain's floor statement. I read it. He didn't say what she said he was. Maybe something is lost in translation, but if your sources are relying on CNN and the NYT for American news, then they are getting about half the story.

I think to lump McCain with Clinton is slightly odd, and wrong. Whatever you think about his politics.

I'm trying to picture Clinton like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Vietcapturejm01.jpg

or this:

http://quest.cjonline.com/images/021200/McCain2.jpg

Or This:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/aug1999/0899pow6.jpg

When, in fact, Bill was looking like this:

http://www.sobstudygroup.com/blog/uploaded_images/bill-hillary-732266.jpg

Now I was born way past this point, but these people are my parents generation, and what they were doing in these few years defined them then, and defines them now.

Just for giggles:

http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Barry-Obama-lg.jpg

[August]

Dean Acheson! :up:

[Skybird]

I'm trying to picture Clinton like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Vietcapturejm01.jpg

or this:

http://quest.cjonline.com/images/021200/McCain2.jpg

Or This:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/aug1999/0899pow6.jpg

When, in fact, Bill was looking like this:

http://www.sobstudygroup.com/blog/uploaded_images/bill-hillary-732266.jpg

Now I was born way past this point, but these people are my parents generation, and what they were doing in these few years defined them then, and defines them now.

Just for giggles:

http://www.xmlgrrl.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/Barry-Obama-lg.jpg
None of the three candidates wear glasses these days, or a beard. That's why it is impossible to vote for any of them.

[dean_acheson]

LOL. ;)

POW day, 1997.


http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/newsphoto/1997-09/970919-D-2987S-048_screen.jpg

[Iceman]

John McCain Sells His Soul to the Right: Backs Off on Torture Ban (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/john-mccain-sells-his-sou_b_86700.html)

Dang!... lol...women...and Skybird...what a pair...

[dean_acheson]

The obligatory BHO is JCH post.

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjljYjA3YTYzMjU2ZjA5Yzg1MmM2YjIzZjEyN2ZjZjk=

[sonar732]

Looks like "Meet The Press" is going to be an interesting show Sunday.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

[geetrue]

http://weblogs.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/a_powerful_friend_is_hillary_c.html

All Hillary needs is a few more friends like this ...



"I don't know what kind of change Mr. Obama would bring," Strickland said this week in an interview in his ground-level office in Ohio's state capital. "I do know what kind of change Sen. Clinton would bring" - on veterans, the Iraq war, the mortgage crisis and health care - "because she's been very specific."

[Tchocky]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/02/23/mccain-hoping-castro-dies/

[geetrue]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/02/23/mccain-hoping-castro-dies/

This is John McCain at his best; That link Tchocky gave above.


"John McCain says he doesn't look for any major political reforms in Cuba until after Fidel Castro dies, adding he hopes that's not far off.
As McCain put it during a campaign stop in Indiana Friday,

"I hope he has the opportunity to meet Karl Marx very soon."

[Jimbuna]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/02/23/mccain-hoping-castro-dies/

This is John McCain at his best; That link Tchocky gave above.


"John McCain says he doesn't look for any major political reforms in Cuba until after Fidel Castro dies, adding he hopes that's not far off.
As McCain put it during a campaign stop in Indiana Friday,

"I hope he has the opportunity to meet Karl Marx very soon."


LMAO http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3060/gigglebigtb9.gif

[Tchocky]

I think it's McCain at his most crass and undignified.

[sonar732]

I think it's McCain at his most crass and undignified.

Undignified for a man to state the change of hands in Cuba won't matter regarding their policies? I can't count on how many threats President Bush has received on this forum alone...wait...that's ok because it's GW.

[Tchocky]

I think it's McCain at his most crass and undignified.
Undignified for a man to state the change of hands in Cuba won't matter regarding their policies? No, it's undignified and cowardly to wish for the death of a dying former leader. I wonder if McCain would have said this if Fidel was still in power? Or is it acceptable once he's out of office? I don't know which depresses me more; if McCain was saying this because he believes it, or if he's pandering to the Miami Cuban voters.
And things may change yet in Cuba. I don't believe Raul fully, but things won't be exactly the same

Our correspondent says Raul Castro now has to steer the Caribbean island through un-charted waters in an unpredictable period of economic and political renewal.
Before Sunday's session, Raul Castro had suggested implementing major economic reforms and "structural changes".




He has worked to ensure a smooth political transition, keeping the army loyal to the regime and strengthening the Communist Party's hold by introducing reforms and weeding out corrupt officials.
I can't count on how many threats President Bush has received on this forum alone...wait...that's ok because it's GW. None from me.

[sonar732]

McCain still would've said it if Fidel was in power...so would've I. It's no secret the desire of the US for a regime change in Cuba.

[DeepIron]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Watch the clip... her routine starts at around :50 :lol:

Nader gets on Obamas' case too:

Nader responded in Monday's interview. "As if Barack Obama doesn't have a high opinion of his own work? That's name-calling.
"Address the issues, Barack. Address why you're not for single-payer health insurance… Explain why you don't challenge what you know as to be tens of billions of dollars of waste, fraud and abuse in the military budget.
Dang... where's my popcorn. This could get good... :rock:

[geetrue]

Only a week left and then we will know, uh?

About the democrats that is ... :yep:

Did you know the leader of the muslim nation in America is pro-Obama?


"This young man is the hope of the entire world that America will change and be made better," he said. "This young man is capturing audiences of black and brown and red and yellow. If you look at Barack Obama's audiences and look at the effect of his words, those people are being transformed."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-farrakhan25feb25,0,6391391.story

[DeepIron]

Did you know the leader of the muslim nation in America is pro-Obama?
That's enough to get me to vote Hilliary or Republican... :roll:

[Tchocky]

Did you know the leader of the muslim nation in America is pro-Obama? That's enough to get me to vote Hilliary or Republican... :roll:
Really?

[DeepIron]

Did you know the leader of the muslim nation in America is pro-Obama? That's enough to get me to vote Hilliary or Republican... :roll: Really?

Sarcasm... ;)

Actually I'm considering Nader.... :rotfl:

[StarFox]

Obama is christian now....he converted a while back. I dont care who gets elected, as long as its Hillary or Obama

[Tchocky]

Converted from what?

[bradclark1]

Muslim.

[DeepIron]

Muslim. :lol: And people were worried about Romney and his Mormonism... :rotfl:

No wonder Farrakhan likes BO so much... Perhaps he has the same "dis-information"...

[Tchocky]

Muslim.
Nope

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp


Much of the information presented therein about his background is distorted and exaggerated, however, and no evidence supports a claim that Obama is currently, or ever has been, a Muslim (radical or otherwise).

[AVGWarhawk]

Muslim. :lol: And people were worried about Romney and his Mormonism... :rotfl:

:rotfl:

Obama went to some Muslim schools. His dad was Muslim but he left when Obama was 2 years old. Not what I would call a huge influence on Obama. If it was such an issue he would not be a Senator for Ill. At any rate, he is still inexperienced right now. Internationally what does he know? Not much. What legislatively has he done as a Senator? Not much. If this election stays on course as an election of CHANGE...Obama will win. If this election changes in mood to one of national security, McCain will win. McCains stance on the surge in Iraq is against popular opinion. This will bury him also.

[DeepIron]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7265492.stm

BFD... Like Dodd's campaign even got off the ground... :shifty:

[AVGWarhawk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7265492.stm

BFD... Like Dodd's campaign even got off the ground... :shifty:


Who is Dodd? :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

Here is Obama's biggest issue national security. The military in Washington are very concerned. As should we.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080226/NATION/476716884/1001

(http://http//www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080226/NATION/476716884/1001)

[dean_acheson]

You won't see me post articles from the City Journal very often, but Yikes!

That one could leave a mark....

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0225fs.html

[Onkel Neal]

Obama supporters, at least some of them, are really left fringe. (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28915_Che_Guevara_Flags_in_Obamas_Houston_O ffice&only) It's the typical naive idealism that will turn off a lot of Americans in the general election.

It's just awesome! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5lJrMvqahA)

[AVGWarhawk]

Obama supporters, at least some of them, are really left fringe. (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28915_Che_Guevara_Flags_in_Obamas_Houston_O ffice&only) It's the typical naive idealism that will turn off a lot of Americans in the general election.

It's just awesome! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5lJrMvqahA)

I truly await a debate between McCain and Obama.

[Konovalov]

Only a week left and then we will know, uh?

About the democrats that is ... :yep:

Did you know the leader of the muslim nation in America is pro-Obama?


"This young man is the hope of the entire world that America will change and be made better," he said. "This young man is capturing audiences of black and brown and red and yellow. If you look at Barack Obama's audiences and look at the effect of his words, those people are being transformed."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-farrakhan25feb25,0,6391391.story

And this is what Barack Obama thinks (http://www.adl.org/PresRele/NatIsl_81/5208_81.htm)of Louis Farrakhan courtesy of the Anti-Defamation League. :yep:

[dean_acheson]

Things will settle here in a bit, and then round two.

Obama the Great Messiah vs. the Old Curmudgon.

I can't wait.

Methinks of 1972.

[Tchocky]

What legislatively has he done as a Senator? Not much. Actually I've found it to be rather impressive, given his relatively short career
If this election stays on course as an election of CHANGE...Obama will win. If this election changes in mood to one of national security, McCain will win. McCains stance on the surge in Iraq is against popular opinion. This will bury him also. Sounds about right

[ReallyDedPoet]

Obama supporters, at least some of them, are really left fringe. (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28915_Che_Guevara_Flags_in_Obamas_Houston_O ffice&only) It's the typical naive idealism that will turn off a lot of Americans in the general election.


This was and will be balanced ( at least somewhat ) by those in the Republican Camp whom are extreme to the right, the 2006 Midterm Elections were an example of this. All of this :roll: will make for an interesting election campaign leading to this November.


RDP

[geetrue]

Only a week left and then we will know, uh?

About the democrats that is ... :yep:

Did you know the leader of the muslim nation in America is pro-Obama?


"This young man is the hope of the entire world that America will change and be made better," he said. "This young man is capturing audiences of black and brown and red and yellow. If you look at Barack Obama's audiences and look at the effect of his words, those people are being transformed."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-farrakhan25feb25,0,6391391.story

And this is what Barack Obama thinks (http://www.adl.org/PresRele/NatIsl_81/5208_81.htm)of Louis Farrakhan courtesy of the Anti-Defamation League. :yep:

This is what Obama's pastor thinks: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/20/politics/main2588082.shtml

Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., whom Obama has portrayed as his spiritual mentor.

At a recent Sunday service, following media coverage of Obama's last-minute decision not to have Wright speak at the senator's presidential announcement last month, Wright warned his flock not to believe any reports of a rift between him and the church's best-known member.

"Barack and I are fine," Wright, 65, on an out-of-state trip, said in a recorded message played to about 2,000 attendees. "The press is not to be trusted. ... Don't let somebody outside our camp divide us."


I promise you I am outside Obama's camp ... all I can do is observe and try to understand.

[elite_hunter_sh3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF5Kdm4Eu6w


:rotfl::rotfl::roll: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF5Kdm4Eu6w:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::roll:)

[Konovalov]

This is what Obama's pastor thinks: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/20/politics/main2588082.shtml

Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., whom Obama has portrayed as his spiritual mentor.

At a recent Sunday service, following media coverage of Obama's last-minute decision not to have Wright speak at the senator's presidential announcement last month, Wright warned his flock not to believe any reports of a rift between him and the church's best-known member.

"Barack and I are fine," Wright, 65, on an out-of-state trip, said in a recorded message played to about 2,000 attendees. "The press is not to be trusted. ... Don't let somebody outside our camp divide us."


I promise you I am outside Obama's camp ... all I can do is observe and try to understand.

As far as I am aware Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr is not running for either the Democratic nominee or for President of the United States so I don't think it is relavent what the Rev thinks. :roll:

[StarFox]

Muslim.
Nope

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp


Much of the information presented therein about his background is distorted and exaggerated, however, and no evidence supports a claim that Obama is currently, or ever has been, a Muslim (radical or otherwise).

Even so, I still do not see why people were freaked out in the first place. have we become so secertly racist, the it is bad for people of different races cannot be elected president? I bet if you look at the KKK website (I am an African American that likes to be very informed) Ill bet their thowing a huge fit.

I have read on a few forums with comments like "What has happened to America that we are electing a Muslim president?"

or stuff like "America will never be safe if a black (and sometimes described with that wonderful N word) is elected president"

What has become of that phrase "All men are created equal". No exceptions should ever be made to those words (even though the man that wrote them was a slave holder when her wrote them....hypocritical TJ....)

For all I care, elect an Atheist president, it should make no differnce.

[Tchocky]

Even so, I still do not see why people were freaked out in the first place. have we become so secertly racist, the it is bad for people of different races cannot be elected president? I bet if you look at the KKK website (I am an African American that likes to be very informed) Ill bet their thowing a huge fit.

I have read on a few forums with comments like "What has happened to America that we are electing a Muslim president?"

or stuff like "America will never be safe if a black (and sometimes described with that wonderful N word) is elected president"

What has become of that phrase "All men are created equal". No exceptions should ever be made to those words (even though the man that wrote them was a slave holder when her wrote them....hypocritical TJ....)

For all I care, elect an Atheist president, it should make no differnce.
Oh I agree with you, I just can't stand blatantly incorrect stories flying around as fact, which is where this Obama-Islam thing kicks in :)

[August]

Just about any tactic will be used in an election. Including publishing (easily deflected) dirt on ones own candidate and blaming it on the opposition in order to make them look bad.

Maybe that's not what happened with these african outfit pics of Obama but think about it for a sec. The only people who would really take offense by them would be people who would never vote for Obama in the first place so it won't have any effect come general election day.

But when it comes to the Democratic primary Obama supporters are energized by the injustice of the attack, Clinton is villified as the most likely perpetrator and Dem neutrals become more sympathetic to Obama.

[AVGWarhawk]

Just a joke fellas:


A PAID POLITICAL ANNOUNCEMENT
BY SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D- ILL)

M y fellow Identity-Americans.

As your future president I want to thank my supporters, for their... well, support.

Your mindless support of me, despite my complete lack of any legislative achievement, my pastor's relations with Louis Farrakhan and Libyan dictator Moamar Quadafi, or my blatantly leftist voting record while I present myself as some sort of bi-partisan agent of change.

I also like how my supporters claim my youthful drug use and criminal behaviour somehow qualifies me for the Presidency after 8 years of claiming Bush's youthful drinking disqualifies him. Your hypocrisy is a beacon of hope shining over a sea of political posing.

I would also like to thank the Kennedys for coming out in support of me. There's a lot of glamour behind the Kennedy name, even though JFK started the Vietnam War, his brother Robert illegally wiretapped Martin Luther King Jr. and Teddy killed a teenage girl. And I'm not going anywhere near the cousins, both literally and figuratively.

And I'd like to thank Oprah Winfrey for her support.

Her love of meaningless empty platitudes will be the force that propels me to the White House.

Americans should vote for me, not because of my lack of experience or achievement, but because I make people feel good. Voting for me causes some white folk to feel relieved of their imagined, racist guilt.

I say things that sound meaningful, but don't really mean anything because Americans are tired of things having meaning. If things have meaning, then that means you have to think about them.

Americans are tired of thinking.

It's time to shut down the brain, and open up the heart.

So when you go to vote in the primaries, remember don't think, just do .

And do it for me.

Thank You.

[dean_acheson]

Obama supporters, at least some of them, are really left fringe. (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28915_Che_Guevara_Flags_in_Obamas_Houston_O ffice&only) It's the typical naive idealism that will turn off a lot of Americans in the general election.


This was and will be balanced ( at least somewhat ) by those in the Republican Camp whom are extreme to the right, the 2006 Midterm Elections were an example of this. All of this :roll: will make for an interesting election campaign leading to this November.


RDP

I hate to disagree with my friend reallydedpoet, but I don't think that the midterms were about the 'radical right fringe' as much as they were about the lack of fiscal responsiblity of our 'conservative' party, as well as the fact that members of my party started acting like Washington was a place to go to party.

We can only take so many Mark Foleys, Tom Delays, and Roy Blunts.

Most of us here in flyover country can't stand the thought of Nancy Pelosi, the San Fransisco wonder, or Harry Reid, who can't take his foot out of his mouth long enough to finish one news talk show, as leaders of the Congress, but if Republicans are going to spend and spend, and not tax and tax, we might as well have some Dems. At least they will tax the bejuses out of us and keep the books balanced.

If my party doesn't have to intestinal fortitude to do whatever is necessary to boot fellows like Larry Craig, I'd just as soon stay at home as vote.

This is a forum on the Presidential election, but I don't really think that it's off topic.

[fredbass]

I just have a problem with Bill Clinton being first lady. :lol:

Also I have no doubt that Hillary would have divorced Bill already, if it were not for political gain to have him around. So to me, she comes across as being a little phony. If she can pretend to still love Bill what else can she pretend about?

[AVGWarhawk]

Also I have no doubt that Hillary would have divorced Bill already, if it were not for political gain to have him around. So to me, she comes across as being a little phony. If she can pretend to still love Bill what else can she pretend about?

You nailed it on the head Fred. Totally a relationship of convience and Hillary's political aspirations. Phony is right. She seems so superficial.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Obama supporters, at least some of them, are really left fringe. (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28915_Che_Guevara_Flags_in_Obamas_Houston_O ffice&only) It's the typical naive idealism that will turn off a lot of Americans in the general election.

This was and will be balanced ( at least somewhat ) by those in the Republican Camp whom are extreme to the right, the 2006 Midterm Elections were an example of this. All of this :roll: will make for an interesting election campaign leading to this November.


RDP
I hate to disagree with my friend reallydedpoet, but I don't think that the midterms were about the 'radical right fringe' as much as they were about the lack of fiscal responsiblity of our 'conservative' party, as well as the fact that members of my party started acting like Washington was a place to go to party.

We can only take so many Mark Foleys, Tom Delays, and Roy Blunts.

Most of us here in flyover country can't stand the thought of Nancy Pelosi, the San Fransisco wonder, or Harry Reid, who can't take his foot out of his mouth long enough to finish one news talk show, as leaders of the Congress, but if Republicans are going to spend and spend, and not tax and tax, we might as well have some Dems. At least they will tax the bejuses out of us and keep the books balanced.

If my party doesn't have to intestinal fortitude to do whatever is necessary to boot fellows like Larry Craig, I'd just as soon stay at home as vote.

This is a forum on the Presidential election, but I don't really think that it's off topic.

No problem with disagreeing dean :yep::up: Reading this thread has been interesting, I would write a little more, but I have to go to a meeting :oops:


RDP

[Iceman]

Just a joke fellas:


A PAID POLITICAL ANNOUNCEMENT
BY SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D- ILL)

M y fellow Identity-Americans.

As your future president I want to thank my supporters, for their... well, support.

Your mindless support of me, despite my complete lack of any legislative achievement, my pastor's relations with Louis Farrakhan and Libyan dictator Moamar Quadafi, or my blatantly leftist voting record while I present myself as some sort of bi-partisan agent of change.

I also like how my supporters claim my youthful drug use and criminal behaviour somehow qualifies me for the Presidency after 8 years of claiming Bush's youthful drinking disqualifies him. Your hypocrisy is a beacon of hope shining over a sea of political posing.

I would also like to thank the Kennedys for coming out in support of me. There's a lot of glamour behind the Kennedy name, even though JFK started the Vietnam War, his brother Robert illegally wiretapped Martin Luther King Jr. and Teddy killed a teenage girl. And I'm not going anywhere near the cousins, both literally and figuratively.

And I'd like to thank Oprah Winfrey for her support.

Her love of meaningless empty platitudes will be the force that propels me to the White House.

Americans should vote for me, not because of my lack of experience or achievement, but because I make people feel good. Voting for me causes some white folk to feel relieved of their imagined, racist guilt.

I say things that sound meaningful, but don't really mean anything because Americans are tired of things having meaning. If things have meaning, then that means you have to think about them.

Americans are tired of thinking.

It's time to shut down the brain, and open up the heart.

So when you go to vote in the primaries, remember don't think, just do .

And do it for me.

Thank You.

o man that is great....sad and true ,scary.

[Tchocky]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/28/hagee/index.html?view=print


Obama rejects Farrakahn, McCain embraces Hagee.

Wahey :roll:

John McCain - Like change, but different.

[Tchocky]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/02/AR2008030201982.html?nav=rss_politics/elections&sid=ST2008030300128

Obama Q&A on foreign policy.

[FAdmiral]

New Political Ad "A child is sleeping somewhere in the USA, it's 3AM and the
phone rings at the White House !! Who do you want to answer it ???"

In my opinion, its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear the
message. Simple solution, set up a virtual reality situation in which all the
canidates get to answer that phone & see what they would do. I know of groups
of people that do that very thing. Maybe we could get one of them to set one up
at the Oct meet. I have played in 2 of them before and they are fantastic games.


JIM

[August]

New Political Ad "A child is sleeping somewhere in the USA, it's 3AM and the
phone rings at the White House !! Who do you want to answer it ???"

In my opinion, its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear the
message. Simple solution, set up a virtual reality situation in which all the
canidates get to answer that phone & see what they would do. I know of groups
of people that do that very thing. Maybe we could get one of them to set one up
at the Oct meet. I have played in 2 of them before and they are fantastic games.


JIM

I'm pretty sure the President has someone to answer the phone for them? :doh:

[Tchocky]

I hate that ad. Reminds me too much of "Daisy".

[bookworm_020]

Is this thing over yet?? I'm getting bored:-?, can someone change the channel????;)

[CCIP]

McCain's got it.

Not that we ever doubted that, I think :p

[bookworm_020]

She's Back!!!!! Clition wins both Ohio and Texas (the popular vote, no word yet on the caucus vote yet)

Don't know if this will help, but it will keep intrest in Pennsylvania!

[Tchocky]

Screw you, Texas :arrgh!:

[dean_acheson]

Ouch!

[sonar732]

McCain's got it.

Not that we ever doubted that, I think :p

Now for him to sit back and watch the Democratic run for nomination.

Depending on who wins that set will determine who he picks as a VP.

[sonar732]

Screw you, Texas :arrgh!:

EDIT: I think Obama's office personnel in Houston sealed the deal on him loosing.

As I look around for Neal's reaction, I think you are forgetting the common Texas phrase of...


DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!

[Tchocky]

Screw you, Texas :arrgh!:

EDIT: I think Obama's office personnel in Houston sealed the deal on him loosing.

As I look around for Neal's reaction, I think you are forgetting the common Texas phrase of...


DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!

:lol: Sounds about right!

What happened in Houston?

[sonar732]

This is where I was coming from a while ago when I mentioned it might happen...

EDIT: Granted, it's not just on yahoo now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_rdp_138;_ylt=AlwN7k8Js1BpBfPxwfrZvFph24cA

Asked on CBS's "The Early Show" whether she and Obama should be on the same ticket, Clinton said:
"That may be where this is headed, but of course we have to decide who is on the top of ticket. I think the people of Ohio very clearly said that it should be me."

[sonar732]

Here is what Houston was about...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l5lJrMvqahA

[Platapus]

Don't mess with texas

You will never get the stink off your hands if you do. :p

[dean_acheson]

Neal will come in here and put the whoopin' on your boys here before too long.

[Siara]

Is Obama realy West Ham secret follower? :hmm:
If he is i hope he wins and support us proper.

[STEED]

The botox bitch is back in the running. :huh:

[Onkel Neal]

New Political Ad "A child is sleeping somewhere in the USA, it's 3AM and the
phone rings at the White House !! Who do you want to answer it ???"

In my opinion, its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear the
message. Simple solution, set up a virtual reality situation in which all the
canidates get to answer that phone & see what they would do. I know of groups
of people that do that very thing. Maybe we could get one of them to set one up
at the Oct meet. I have played in 2 of them before and they are fantastic games.


JIM

I remember the last phone conference with a Clinton (http://youtube.com/watch?v=6AuD2oRoYKc) :)

.

[FAdmiral]

New Political Ad "A child is sleeping somewhere in the USA, it's 3AM and the
phone rings at the White House !! Who do you want to answer it ???"

In my opinion, its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear the
message. Simple solution, set up a virtual reality situation in which all the
canidates get to answer that phone & see what they would do. I know of groups
of people that do that very thing. Maybe we could get one of them to set one up
at the Oct meet. I have played in 2 of them before and they are fantastic games.


JIM

I'm pretty sure the President has someone to answer the phone for them? :doh:

NOW !! What part of "its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear
the message" don't you understand....

NEAL, I'll bet we could set up that VRS all by ourselves !!

JIM

[GlobalExplorer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKLc5mlij4&feature=related

:rotfl:

[August]

New Political Ad "A child is sleeping somewhere in the USA, it's 3AM and the
phone rings at the White House !! Who do you want to answer it ???"

In my opinion, its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear the
message. Simple solution, set up a virtual reality situation in which all the
canidates get to answer that phone & see what they would do. I know of groups
of people that do that very thing. Maybe we could get one of them to set one up
at the Oct meet. I have played in 2 of them before and they are fantastic games.


JIM
I'm pretty sure the President has someone to answer the phone for them? :doh:
NOW !! What part of "its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear
the message" don't you understand....
Actually your very next sentence about having the "canidates" answer the phone? :yep:

[FAdmiral]

New Political Ad "A child is sleeping somewhere in the USA, it's 3AM and the
phone rings at the White House !! Who do you want to answer it ???"

In my opinion, its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear the
message. Simple solution, set up a virtual reality situation in which all the
canidates get to answer that phone & see what they would do. I know of groups
of people that do that very thing. Maybe we could get one of them to set one up
at the Oct meet. I have played in 2 of them before and they are fantastic games.


JIM
I'm pretty sure the President has someone to answer the phone for them? :doh:
NOW !! What part of "its not who answers it but what will they do after they hear
the message" don't you understand....
Actually your very next sentence about having the "canidates" answer the phone? :yep:

Actually since its only a SIMULATION of how THEY would respond, why on earth
would a middle person to answer the phone be NEEDED ???????????????????????


JIM

[August]

Actually since its only a SIMULATION of how THEY would respond, why on earth
would a middle person to answer the phone be NEEDED ???????????????????????


JIM

So why then simulate something that would never, ever happen in the first place Jim?

[mapuc]

On a danish debate, I have asked those who are there, who they prefer Clinton or Obama and why

I'm waiting for the result.

By now I know, that some people in Denmark and Sweden, think that Obama will give away USA to Al-Quada.

Markus

[Sea Demon]

By now I know, that some people in Denmark and Sweden, think that Obama will give away USA to Al-Quada.

Markus

In the USA, the feeling is not that Obama will "give away" the country to Al-Qaeda or something to that effect. It's more of a suspicion that Obama will make life alot easier for Al-Qaeda. And Al-Qaeda will become stronger under an Obama presidency and find it easier to conduct their terror operations worldwide. The same will happen under Clinton incidentally. These two candidates would be a disaster for the USA.

[mapuc]

By now I know, that some people in Denmark and Sweden, think that Obama will give away USA to Al-Quada.

Markus

In the USA, the feeling is not that Obama will "give away" the country to Al-Qaeda or something to that effect. It's more of a suspicion that Obama will make life alot easier for Al-Qaeda. And Al-Qaeda will become stronger under an Obama presidency and find it easier to conduct their terror operations worldwide. The same will happen under Clinton incidentally. These two candidates would be a disaster for the USA.

Is McCaine better(he's my choice) or is the best candidate out of business?

Markus

[Tchocky]

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/usa/2008/03/clintons_role_in_naftagate.html

Well ain't this interesting.

[dean_acheson]

Yikes! How do you really feel, Hill?

LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMVOT-IH8sg

[August]

Yikes! How do you really feel, Hill?

LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMVOT-IH8sg


:rotfl:

How does being first lady and a term and a half as US senator equal a "lifetime" of experience?

[geetrue]

How does being first lady and a term and a half as US senator equal a "lifetime" of experience?

She counted the eight years she spent in the White House telling Bill what to do ... :lol:

[August]

How does being first lady and a term and a half as US senator equal a "lifetime" of experience?
She counted the eight years she spent in the White House telling Bill what to do ... :lol:

Well even if we grant her that it is only 8 years. Hardly a lifetime for someone as old as she is.

[XabbaRus]

For what it's worth as a UKer for the democrat nomination I hope Hillary gets it. Why her you may ask? A case of better the Devil you know.

I just don't like Barak Obama, don't trust him, something about him gives me the creeps and he's also really scrawny though that shouldn't have anything to do with it. Plus I think Hilary is more rounded.

McCaine doesn't seem to bad for the Republicans. He doesn't seem to be so conservative as Bush, especially after I read his comments about illegals and the war, even though he supported it.

[Tchocky]

and he's also really scrawny though that shouldn't have anything to do with it. :lol:

McCaine doesn't seem to bad for the Republicans. He doesn't seem to be so conservative as Bush, especially after I read his comments about illegals and the war, even though he supported it. He seems to want more war than Bush ever did. Agree with ya on the immigration.

[The WosMan]

By now I know, that some people in Denmark and Sweden, think that Obama will give away USA to Al-Quada.

Markus

In the USA, the feeling is not that Obama will "give away" the country to Al-Qaeda or something to that effect. It's more of a suspicion that Obama will make life alot easier for Al-Qaeda. And Al-Qaeda will become stronger under an Obama presidency and find it easier to conduct their terror operations worldwide. The same will happen under Clinton incidentally. These two candidates would be a disaster for the USA.

Is McCaine better(he's my choice) or is the best candidate out of business?

Markus

The best candidate is out of business.

XabbaRusFor what it's worth as a UKer for the democrat nomination I hope Hillary gets it. Why her you may ask? A case of better the Devil you know.

I just don't like Barak Obama, don't trust him, something about him gives me the creeps and he's also really scrawny though that shouldn't have anything to do with it. Plus I think Hilary is more rounded.

McCaine doesn't seem to bad for the Republicans. He doesn't seem to be so conservative as Bush, especially after I read his comments about illegals and the war, even though he supported it.

If you think Bush is a conservative you don't know much about American politics. He is a moderate at best. We haven't had a true conservative president since 1988.

[Yahoshua]

BOHICA

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k84/yahoshua/treason.jpg

[3Jane]

“Everybody in the World Except US Citizens Should Be Allowed to Vote and Elect the American Government”–Leading Intellectual Slavoj Žižek


:p :|\\

[dean_acheson]

If you think Bush is a conservative you don't know much about American politics. He is a moderate at best. We haven't had a true conservative president since 1988.

Woot woot! Yes'sir! Bush is on 'conservative' in the sense that the left has absolutely castigated him as some kind of anti-Christ.

The obligatory BHO is JCH picture of the day:

http://michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/1glowbama.jpg

[geetrue]

Ya'll know Obama fired a lady for calling Hillary a monster, right?

Then Hillary fired a lady for saying the reason Obama was getting more votes is because he was black, right?

Now it's time for Obama to fire his pastor ... :yep:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1


http://a.abcnews.com/images/Site/byline_abcnews.gif
By BRIAN ROSS and REHAB EL-BURI
March 13, 2008

Sen. Barack Obama's pastor says blacks should not sing "God Bless America" but "G-d damn America."

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for the last 20 years at the Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's south side,
has a long history of what even Obama's campaign aides concede is "inflammatory rhetoric," including the assertion that the
United States brought on the 9/11 attacks with its own "terrorism."

[Tchocky]

Meh. Look up John Hagee. Also check out Rod Parsley.
The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion [Islam,as if you couldnt guess - Tchock] destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore. Both of these guys have been embraced by McCain, it's led me to wonder how much John believes in this cataclysmic civilisation-war stuff.
McCain actually called Parsley a "spiritual guide". Come on.

Obama has already said that Wright says things that he doesn't agree with. THe connection of a pastor's statements are further than those of an employee, which is the case with Samantha Power and Geraldine Ferraro.

Oh, and Ferraro resigned, Hillary didn't fire her. Same as Power.
The difference is that Power immediately got out, whereas Ferraro proceeded to complain that she was the victim of racism, kick up a fuss, and eventually resign.
Obama has said he doesn't want to go into negative campaigning, and that's reinforced by the speed of Powers' exit. The Ferraro business leaves a nasty taste in just about everyone's mouth, I think.

Since its Christmas, lets have an edit!

EDIT - From yer posted article, geetrue
Rev. Wright, who announced his retirement last month,

[Iceman]

Meh. Look up John Hagee. Also check out Rod Parsley.
The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion [Islam,as if you couldnt guess - Tchock] destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore. Both of these guys have been embraced by McCain, it's led me to wonder how much John believes in this cataclysmic civilisation-war stuff.
McCain actually called Parsley a "spiritual guide". Come on.

Obama has already said that Wright says things that he doesn't agree with. THe connection of a pastor's statements are further than those of an employee, which is the case with Samantha Power and Geraldine Ferraro.

Oh, and Ferraro resigned, Hillary didn't fire her. Same as Power.
The difference is that Power immediately got out, whereas Ferraro proceeded to complain that she was the victim of racism, kick up a fuss, and eventually resign.
Obama has said he doesn't want to go into negative campaigning, and that's reinforced by the speed of Powers' exit. The Ferraro business leaves a nasty taste in just about everyone's mouth, I think.

Since its Christmas, lets have an edit!

EDIT - From yer posted article, geetrue
Rev. Wright, who announced his retirement last month,

What's his retiring have to do with the price of tea in China?

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people," he said in a 2003 sermon. "God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

These are his words...it does not matter that he is retired now that somehow makes it ok...No one forces Blacks to kill steal and destroy..it is a choice.

Just as he excersises his "Choice" to choose the easy path of blame instead of responsibility...

The only ones responsibile for 9/11 are those who actually carried out the plan and excution of the event....Not the entire Muslim race...even if alot celebrated...most are just as dead as those they killed and the others will be hunted like dogs until they day they die.

Radical Muslims can blame Jews all they want for they're problems same as blacks blame whites or indians blame whites or Thieves blame they're childhood or murders blaming the voices of God telling them to do something....

Free Will is every human beings God given right....the right to stand up to evil or crumble under the weight of it's claws.To take responsibility for ones own actions and not to lay blame.

You all here are a perfect example of the diversity of the world...I do not judge you by your religion, race ,color, or brand of corn flakes....a man is judged by his works.

I can tell by watching Obama that the political race he is in is taking it's toll on him as well as on them all.I do not envy they're choice to run but it is they're "Choice" so he needs to speak up and distance himself from that negative stuff.

or even Yoda had it right....'Do, or no Do...they're is no try"

To try to point out the fruit that America is reaping is it's own fault is silly...The world will reap soon enough from all of our deeds or lack of Do's.


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.(John 14:6)

[TDK1044]

John Mccain is older now than Reagan was at the end of his term. Obama has vision and ideas but no experience, and Hillary is just horrible. I think we should elect Monica Lewinski...at least she has experience at getting down to business!

[dean_acheson]

John Mccain is older now than Reagan was at the end of his term. Obama has vision and ideas but no experience, and Hillary is just horrible. I think we should elect Monica Lewinski...at least she has experience at getting down to business!

John McCain's age doesn't bother me, I"m not obsessed with youth. I kinda like the Viscount Palmerston type.

It ain't that BHO hasn't got vision, it's the visions he seems to have that scare the beejeezus out of me.

I'm just not going to get into Hillary. I'm too tired.

[TDK1044]

John Mccain is older now than Reagan was at the end of his term. Obama has vision and ideas but no experience, and Hillary is just horrible. I think we should elect Monica Lewinski...at least she has experience at getting down to business!

John McCain's age doesn't bother me, I"m not obsessed with youth.

It sure as hell bothers me. There's a minimum age requirement for the job...there shold be a maximum age requirement too. He'll be 72 at the time of the inauguration. That job has aged many a younger man. Mccain would die in office in my view. It'll be a Democrat anyway. That leaves us with Mufty and Tufty. :D

[dean_acheson]

His momma seems full of vigor. She's 96.

[TDK1044]

It's going to be very interesting. You have a situation where the research shows that on the Democratic side, voters would be happy with either Obama or Clinton as the nominee. It's also a fact that Democrats have come out to vote in huge and unprecedented numbers during the Primaries. On the Republican side, the numbers are pretty much the same as they were 8 years ago, and an increasing number of conservatives are very wary of John McCain.

[sonar732]

It's going to be very interesting. You have a situation where the research shows that on the Democratic side, voters would be happy with either Obama or Clinton as the nominee. It's also a fact that Democrats have come out to vote in huge and unprecedented numbers during the Primaries. On the Republican side, the numbers are pretty much the same as they were 8 years ago, and an increasing number of conservatives are very wary of John McCain.

That's why it's assumed that he'll pull someone for his VP selection who can gather those voters...after all, you say he'll die in office anyway. ;)

[dean_acheson]

It's going to be very interesting. You have a situation where the research shows that on the Democratic side, voters would be happy with either Obama or Clinton as the nominee. It's also a fact that Democrats have come out to vote in huge and unprecedented numbers during the Primaries. On the Republican side, the numbers are pretty much the same as they were 8 years ago, and an increasing number of conservatives are very wary of John McCain.

I think that that might have been the case at one time, it's not really now.

The big O camp, and the HRC camp really don't care much for each other, and the sore feelings will run really deep. Deeper than the Taft people in '52.

Also, McCain will pick up folks in the middle to offset some of the folks that will stay at home this time.

This will be a closer, and harder fought campaign than most think, with our economy in the middle of the whole thing.

Indicators are really no that bad, but large chunks of the older school media will continue to talk the economy down for the time being since 1) it's something to write about 2) people watch it so it sells news time 3) the fact that a Republican's in the White House.

McCain will prove his ability to serve by the crazy schedule he'll keep over the next year.

[Tchocky]

McCain will prove his ability to serve by the crazy schedule he'll keep over the next year.
He's keeping a crazy schedule right now.
Obama is raking in money by the millions, Clinton is taking in a lesser but steady amount. McCain has dropped out of the news cycle, and is racing across the country trying to bring in cash.
That said, I'm undecided as to how well a campaign can indicate the quality of a leader.

[TDK1044]

I think either Obama or Clinton will beat him, but time will tell. :D

[dean_acheson]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120545277093135111.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries

I know it's been touched on here, and commented on. I've kinda stayed away from it, but this is one hell of a long relationship.

20ish years, the wedding, as well as the book title. That's either getting close to being a shared weltanschuuang, or a crass friendship necessary to get yourself into the Illinois State Senate.

Personally, if this guy is going to be the President, I'd prefer it to be the latter (even with the religious overtones). Even Harry Truman had a Tom Pendergast. But if it's the former, this guy is bad news for the United States.

[geetrue]

I am not prejudice against blacks ... I think Secretary of State Ms Rice would make a great ticket for McCain if she would accept the position
of vice president in 2008 and perhaps run for president in 2012 when Mr Obama makes his second bid for the presidency, if he should lose to McCain/Rice that is.

After the democrats decide who's going to run, August???

The fight will get interesting ... experience, wisdom, age and yes white against a young charismatic, very well funded, but no real experience
(sort of like Bush, uh?) and yes black.

This is what happens if you type in just two words to google search:

Wealthy blacks back Obama's campaign - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-06-13-obama-donors_N.htm)

Many blacks are throwing financial support behind Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama. A USA TODAY analysis of contributions from nearly 600 ZIP ...

Obama Be First Black President (http://www.diversityinc.com/public/1461.cfm)

Feb 16, 2007 ... Obama is clearly a black man, but is this really a breakthrough? Some blacks say Obama isn't "black enough," which seems ironic because for ...

Is Obama Black Enough? - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1584736,00.html)

Feb 1, 2007 ... Viewpoint: Biden's comment was rooted in the myth that the Senator doesn't represent the.-

Daring to Believe, Blacks Savor Obama Victory - New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/us/politics/05race.html)

Jan 5, 2008 ... African-Americans voiced pride and amazement over Senator Barack Obama’s victory in Iowa, with some seeing the result as a signal moment in ...

Exit poll shows whites back Clinton, blacks support Obama in ... (http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/president/16580551.html)

Find breaking news, multimedia, reviews & opinion on Minneapolis, St. Paul, the Twin Cities metro area and Minnesota.-

Whites Back Clinton, Blacks Obama In MS, Exit Poll Shows Whites ... (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/11/ap/politics/main3927669.shtml)

Blacks gave Barack Obama overwhelming support while whites lined up strongly behind Hillary Rodham Clinton in Mississippi's Democratic presidential primary ...-

"The Great Black Hope" by Benjamin Wallace-Wells (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0411.wallace-wells.html)

For despite their physical differences, Booker and Obama share something fundamental: They are black people whom white Americans can actually picture being ...

Marjorie Valbrun - Black Like Me? - washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/15/AR2007021501270.html)

Feb 16, 2007 ... Those asking if Barack Obama Is 'black enough' are asking the wrong ... I'm angry for Obama, too. People are asking whether he's black ...-

ABC News: Big Split in Bayou: Blacks Drive Obama Win (http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Vote2008/story?id=4267655&page=1)

Feb 9, 2008 ... Obama answered with more than 6-1 support among blacks, 86-13 percent; at 48 percent of Democratic voters, they proved an unassailable ...


More Blacks Lean Toward Obama - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/0,,SB119759876506928645-NRMsv18k7f8Ut_3EIY_pQH8FwD0_20081213,00.html?mod=r ss_free)

Dec 14, 2007 ... Barack Obama's rising poll numbers among white voters in Iowa and New Hampshire are having an unexpected ripple effect: Some black voters ...
-


Since its Christmas, lets have an edit!

EDIT - From yer posted article, geetrue

Quote:
Rev. Wright, who announced his retirement last month,


I will add a post script: Rev Jerimah Wright is stepping down as pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ,
but he is still on the steering commitee of the African American Religious Leadership Committee

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/12/05/barack-obama-campaign-african-american-religious-leadership-steering-committee/

[TDK1044]

I really don't have a dog in this race. Truth be told, I don't much like any of the three possible candidates. I think Hillary is dangerous because she can't be trusted, Obama has some odd associates and not much of a track record, and McCain is just another 'business as usual' Republican pretending to be a conservative.

One thing I am sure of; the Democratic demographic has changed. A lot more young people and ethnic minorities are going to be there for them this time, and if the conservative base of the Republican party doesn't show up in sufficient numbers then McCain won't win.

Two good friends of mine are staunch conservatives. They live hundreds of miles from each other and they have never met. Both have independently told me that they are not voting at all in November because they don't like McCain. One is even taking a vacation out of the Country on voting day. I pointed out to both of them that by not voting they are helping the Democratic candidate, and they both told me in their own way that their conscience won't let them vote for McCain.

These are both smart, six figure salary people....the very people that McCain needs to show up.

As I said...It'll be interesting to see how all this plays out. :D

[Tchocky]

Obama interviewed about Reverend Wright

Q: I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all over the wire today (from an ABC News story), a statement that your pastor (the Rev. Jeremiah Wright of Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's South Side) made in a sermon in 2003 that instead of singing "God Bless America," black people should sing a song essentially saying "God Damn America."

A: I haven't seen the line. This is a pastor who is on the brink of retirement who in the past has made some controversial statements. I profoundly disagree with some of these statements.

Q: What about this particular statement?

A: Obviously, I disagree with that. Here is what happens when you just cherry-pick statements from a guy who had a 40-year career as a pastor. There are times when people say things that are just wrong. But I think it's important to judge me on what I've said in the past and what I believe.

[NEON DEON]

Obama interviewed about Reverend Wright

Q: I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all over the wire today (from an ABC News story), a statement that your pastor (the Rev. Jeremiah Wright of Trinity United Church of Christ on Chicago's South Side) made in a sermon in 2003 that instead of singing "God Bless America," black people should sing a song essentially saying "God Damn America."

A: I haven't seen the line. This is a pastor who is on the brink of retirement who in the past has made some controversial statements. I profoundly disagree with some of these statements.

Q: What about this particular statement?

A: Obviously, I disagree with that. Here is what happens when you just cherry-pick statements from a guy who had a 40-year career as a pastor. There are times when people say things that are just wrong. But I think it's important to judge me on what I've said in the past and what I believe.

Just cherry pick statements?

I guess OBH expects Americans to turn and look the other way.

ABC qoute:

"An ABC News review of dozens of Rev. Wright's sermons, offered for sale by the church, found repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans"


Yeah right BHO! :roll:

[Tchocky]

Just cherry pick statements?

I guess OBH expects Americans to turn and look the other way. Well, yeah. How many different quotes from Wright are we hearing? Just one or two.
Turn and look the other way. this is a dead end. Turn and focus on Obama, like he said.
Why do you say "OBH"?

"An ABC News review of dozens of Rev. Wright's sermons, offered for sale by the church, found repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans" The number of sermons they reviewed is rather immaterial. If they had picked one up, and found anti-US screed all the way through it, then fair enough, that's a story.
They looked through dozens (concrete number), and found "repeated" (two or more).

[Tchocky]

Obama writing on Rev Wright in the Huffington Post. Only published two hours ago.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html

[NEON DEON]

Just cherry pick statements?

I guess OBH expects Americans to turn and look the other way. Well, yeah. How many different quotes from Wright are we hearing? Just one or two.
Turn and look the other way. this is a dead end. Turn and focus on Obama, like he said.
Why do you say "OBH"?

"An ABC News review of dozens of Rev. Wright's sermons, offered for sale by the church, found repeated denunciations of the U.S. based on what he described as his reading of the Gospels and the treatment of black Americans" The number of sermons they reviewed is rather immaterial. If they had picked one up, and found anti-US screed all the way through it, then fair enough, that's a story.
They looked through dozens (concrete number), and found "repeated" (two or more).

In this case, repeated means 7 or more. Not two.

Three seperate reports on the same subject from CBS NBC and Fox show Wright no less than 7 times on video spouting his hate for all to see. Those are just the ones in the reports. For a more detailed number Tchocky, you will have to make that request to ABC. Please feel free to count them yourself on the three different reports where you can find them at Yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_el_pr/obama_pastor

Just click on the post in the top left that states:

"Is obamas pastor a liability?"

The other two on the Yahoo site are:

Fox: "God damn America"

CBS: "Obama calls his Pastor's remarks Appalling"


As far as focusing on Obama, Obama needs to focus on who his friends and religious leaders are.

Like Fox announcer who said: "While you cant pick your family you can pick your friends and certainly pick your pastor."

CBS report has Obama street interview earlier today which is quite interesting. Not to mention the other video interviews from him in the other report where he seems not to make a big deal of it.

I guess BHO was not present for any of those sermons huh?:nope:

Yeah yeah thats my story and I am sticking to it.

OBH

Obama, Barack Hussein



BTW:

Nice written statement from Obama 20 years late.

I would love to see Obama make a speach up in front of his church congregation denouncing Wright's statements and then sing God bless America while sporting a US flag on his lapel. Then show up at a Cubs game and sing the National Anthem with his hand clasped over his heart.

That would be nice but I doubt Obama will do anything more than a written statement.

[Onkel Neal]

The thing about Obama's links with this "pastor", it's not whether Obama denounces the remarks, even the man who made them; in the general election, those remarks and connections will be repeated by the Republicans, loud and often. Think swift boat. A man's pastor is his spiritual leader. Obama is going to be hurt by this.

[Tchocky]

The thing about Obama's links with this "pastor", it's not whether Obama denounces the remarks, even the man who made them; in the general election, those remarks and connections will be repeated by the Republicans, loud and often. Think swift boat. A man's pastor is his spiritual leader. Obama is going to be hurt by this. Republicans definitely will make use of this, it's to be expected (in recent years I've wondered if the Republican Party is better at winning elections than running the country).
However, given McCain's almost-certain nomination, some problems arise. I don't see McCain as willing to campaign in thi way, given his own questionable religious affiliations (Hagee, Parsley), and his apparent disavowal of dirty campaigning. I think we'll see a lot of 527 groups running this stuff, just like the swiftboats. MCain's reaction to such groups will tell us a lot. Will he condemn or just let it slide?
Also, Obama's campaign has been relatively positive, and if he can continue this, any highly negative campaigning wilol only make him look better. Frankly, I can see him going negative eventually, I think I'm too cynical to believe he won't. We'll see.

I would love to see Obama make a speach up in front of his church congregation denouncing Wright's statements and then sing God bless America while sporting a US flag on his lapel. Then show up at a Cubs game and sing the National Anthem with his hand clasped over his heart. I'm an issues man myself :up:

[sonar732]

BTW:

Nice written statement from Obama 20 years late.

I would love to see Obama make a speach up in front of his church congregation denouncing Wright's statements and then sing God bless America while sporting a US flag on his lapel. Then show up at a Cubs game and sing the National Anthem with his hand clasped over his heart.

That would be nice but I doubt Obama will do anything more than a written statement.

:rotfl::rotfl:
A ONE...A TWO...

http://www.tommcmahon.net/images/harryc.gif

[dean_acheson]

The left loves to use the term 'swiftboating.'

Maybe I've missed it, but what exactly were the 'swiftboaters' lying about?

[Tchocky]

Most of the original stuff was concerning John Kerry's Vietnam record, notable because of it's connections with the Bush 04 campaign, and the shaky foundations of the claims.
"The mantra was just 'We want to set the record straight,' " Mr. Hayes said this month. "It became clear to me that it was morphing from an organization to set the record straight into a highly political vendetta. They knew it was not the truth." From - here (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/washington/28kerry.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5089&en=7158a80120f0ee5a&ex=1306468800&adxnnlx=1205687602-qJNDHK3uxktoUvRyH7%20JXQ)

The term has come to mean character smearing, what a mod here would call ad hominem, focusing on irrelevant or relatively unimportant issues, usually cosmetics of patriotism.

[Sailor Steve]

I find it interesting when people point to the Republicans as bad guys in campaigning this way. It's true, they do it, and they're wrong to do it, but President Bush said he would disavow any involvement with the Swift Boat guys if Kerry would deny any connection with MoveOn.org, and Kerry never responded.

The Republicans did deny a connection, and I won't argue that they weren't lying, because at the very least they were glad it happened; but the Democrats actually had a link to MoveOn.org posted at their official website, and the MoveOn guys were just as bad or worse with their mud-slinging. Anybody remember the ads with Bush as Hitler?

[geetrue]

The term has come to mean character smearing, what a mod here would call ad hominem, focusing on irrelevant or relatively unimportant issues, usually cosmetics of patriotism.

If that is what 'swiftboating" means ... I would not call this article swiftboating, but just the opposite.

It is important for the truth to be spoken to obtain the office of the President of the United States. They can lie after they get in the oval office, not before ...

I really hope and pray this is a lie: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2008/020708_never_tortured.htm


It is commonly accepted that McCain was treated better than other POW's and afforded medical care immediately after the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.

Several Vietnam veterans groups do solely exist to expose McCain's abandonment of veteran's interests as well as his lies about being tortured, including Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain (http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/) and U.S. Veteran Dispatch (http://www.usvetdsp.com/).

Doubts over McCain's alleged war hero status and his support to curtail efforts to look for missing POW's contributed to torpedoing his presidential campaign in 2000 and those same questions will undoubtedly surface again should the Senator win the Republican nomination.

[NEON DEON]

Part of Obama statement from Huffington:

"The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation."


Wright talking to the NY Times:

"If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me," Wright told The New York Times with a shrug. "I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen."

Obama lies. Obama would not have to distance himself from Wright unless he knew what wright espoused.

[August]

Most of the original stuff was concerning John Kerry's Vietnam record, notable because of it's connections with the Bush 04 campaign, and the shaky foundations of the claims.
"The mantra was just 'We want to set the record straight,' " Mr. Hayes said this month. "It became clear to me that it was morphing from an organization to set the record straight into a highly political vendetta. They knew it was not the truth." From - here (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/washington/28kerry.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5089&en=7158a80120f0ee5a&ex=1306468800&adxnnlx=1205687602-qJNDHK3uxktoUvRyH7%20JXQ)

The term has come to mean character smearing, what a mod here would call ad hominem, focusing on irrelevant or relatively unimportant issues, usually cosmetics of patriotism.


The term is a great way to cast doubt on something without actually confronting it.

If you're looking for secret motivations though this might be it:

Mr. O'Neill said he "would be thrilled to look at anything he wants to send." Still, he added, "I'm sorry he never apologized for his 1971 speech," referring to Mr. Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, in which he told other soldiers' accounts of ravaging Vietnamese villages and citizens. "I think it would have been a very positive thing to do in terms of the many thousands of people who survived Vietnam and felt that was very hurtful."

[TDK1044]

Looking at the math here, Obama currently has a lead of just under 140 delegates. Even allowing for Hillary victories in the remaining States, with the Democratic proportional allocation system of delegates, Obama will still have a very healthy lead over her at the end of the process....though not enough to cross the winning line. The Super Delegates will then decide it, and at least 50 percent of those will vote for Obama.

So then we go to a presidential race with McCain and Obama. The Pastor issue will certainly hurt Obama a lot, but a growing number of Americans are becoming increasingly frustrated with a 'no exit strategy' from the Republicans, and the fact that we are entering an economic slow down will also not help the republicans in November. It may not be their fault, but perception is often as important as reality.

I think the most significant issue this time will be the number of people voting. When George Bush beat John Kerry, he was ahead by about 4 percent in the popular vote. The number of people voting in the Republican primaries has been about the same as 2004, but the Democratic demographic has changed big time because of Obama. The number of people voting in Democratic primaries is the highest in recorded history.

So, we get to choose between a 'business as usual' old fart who should be enjoying his grand children, or a black JFK wannabe with little experience. It should be fun. :D

[geetrue]

The number of people voting in the Republican primaries has been about the same as 2004, but the Democratic demographic has changed big time because of Obama. The number of people voting in Democratic primaries is the highest in recorded history.

So, we get to choose between a 'business as usual' old fart who should be enjoying his grand children, or a black JFK wannabe with little experience. It should be fun. :D

At least we get to chose, uh? Better than putting up with Putin's choice to run his country.

The numbers of people voting in the primaries is higher than normal for the democrats for sure.

In years past when the young people got behind a canidate for president they didn't show up at the polls and the other side won.

If money makes a difference Obama has been breaking all records on that too.

The real boon doggle is the leaders of the pack in the democratic race have tied themselves up with each other, leaving very little time to confront the republicans. :yep:

[dean_acheson]

Most of the original stuff was concerning John Kerry's Vietnam record, notable because of it's connections with the Bush 04 campaign, and the shaky foundations of the claims.
"The mantra was just 'We want to set the record straight,' " Mr. Hayes said this month. "It became clear to me that it was morphing from an organization to set the record straight into a highly political vendetta. They knew it was not the truth." From - here (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/washington/28kerry.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5089&en=7158a80120f0ee5a&ex=1306468800&adxnnlx=1205687602-qJNDHK3uxktoUvRyH7%20JXQ)

The term has come to mean character smearing, what a mod here would call ad hominem, focusing on irrelevant or relatively unimportant issues, usually cosmetics of patriotism.

Well, I hate to say this, and I guess in the world we live in, nothing is non-partisan, but legitmate questions were raised about Mr. Kerry's record, and his commendations, and how he got them. The New York Times, with his horrible record of 'sources' doesn't cite dates and such in this article, but 'records' that it doesn't cite.

Mr. Kerry created this mess with his own decisions. Mainly of which were to:

1.) That Gawd-awful speech in front of the foreign relations committe accusing his fellow former troops as killers.

2.) Teaming up with the Winter Soldier crowd.

3.) Basing his 2004 run on being a 'real hero' and George W. Bush as a chickenhawk.

So, I find to agree to use the term "swiftboat" as simply a synonym for an ad homoniem attack is something that I simply don't agree with, since it implies that raising questions about somebody is an attack without reason, which it wasn't.

Many of those who served in and around Kerry, or in the same unit after he left made a decision not to support the idea of him as a commander in chief. For those on the left, esp. Kerry, to claim that these veterans kept him out of the White House is simply sour apples from a fellow and a party that ran an absolutly incompetent race.

[dean_acheson]

Part of Obama statement from Huffington:

"The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation."


Wright talking to the NY Times:

"If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me," Wright told The New York Times with a shrug. "I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen."

Obama lies. Obama would not have to distance himself from Wright unless he knew what wright espoused.

The amazing thing about the BHO and his campaign is after all the spin control they chose the HuffPo to post this piece, and under BHO's own name! Wow.

[Tchocky]

Well, I hate to say this, and I guess in the world we live in, nothing is non-partisan, but legitmate questions were raised about Mr. Kerry's record, and his commendations, and how he got them. Indeed there were questions about his record, especially involving conflicting statements from his CO, Elliott I think the name was. What was remarkable about the SwiftBoat group was the almost unanimous falsehood of their claims, and their total funding from a small group of texas Republicans.
The New York Times, with his horrible record of 'sources' doesn't cite dates and such in this article, but 'records' that it doesn't cite. I picked that quote out because it sums up how I saw the SwiftBoat groups campaign. Wasn't really digging for proofs/conslusions :)

So, I find to agree to use the term "swiftboat" as simply a synonym for an ad homoniem attack is something that I simply don't agree with, since it implies that raising questions about somebody is an attack without reason, which it wasn't. Yeah, Kerry did himself no favours by mentioning his wartime service, he was already somewhat controversial for VVAW etc.
The SwiftBoat guys were not without motive or reason, but they lacked credibility, corroboration and honesty in many of their statements.

Many of those who served in and around Kerry, or in the same unit after he left made a decision not to support the idea of him as a commander in chief. For those on the left, esp. Kerry, to claim that these veterans kept him out of the White House is simply sour apples from a fellow and a party that ran an absolutly incompetent race. Aye, that campaign was horrendous. He should have declared his candidacy and then gone fishing. The more people saw of him, the less they liked.
I'd be wary of underestimating the effect of the group. Very often it's not what somebody answers, it's the nature of the questions they have to answer.
Look at the mess that led to headlines about Obama's patriotism. i remember headlines that ended with "Is he exposed?".

[dean_acheson]

Well crap, now that Tchocky and I agree on everything on that, what do we do now?

Oh, I know. Juan Williams giving the haymaker hook to BHO..... ouch! From the voice of NPR no less.....


http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/16/video-juan-williams-lowers-the-boom-on-obama/

[NEON DEON]

I spent a lot of time on the democratic party websites today reading the blogs.

It is like watching a cat chase his tail.

The only time Mc gets mentioned is when someone declares he will be voting for him if Obama is the Democratic Nominee. The division is widening.

It is like watching a train wreck. I cant take my eyes off of it:D

All you republicans out there who want to vote for Hillary in an open primary because she is the weakest competition, be my guest.;)

[geetrue]

I left the numbers off, because they don't really matter ... look at the dates.

Both democrats will be using up time on each other giving amunition to Senator McCain in the process.

Here are the states left and I think Puerto Rico has 53 delegates voting last in June.


April 5:
Virgin Islands caucuses

April 22:
Pennsylvania primaries



May 3:
Guam caucuses

May 6:
Indiana primaries


North Carolina primaries

May 13:
Nebraska primary


West Virginia primary

May 18:
Hawaii convention

May 20:
Kentucky primaries


Oregon primaries

May 27:
Idaho primary

[Tchocky]

Well crap, now that Tchocky and I agree on everything on that, what do we do now?
Agreement Party! :up:

[TDK1044]

The Democrats are always their own worst enemy...it's amusing to watch them. :D

The problem the Republicans will face in November is that our economy will be hurting bad by then, and historically the swing voters, who usually end up deciding who gets to be President, will to some degree blame the Republicans who have been in office for the last eight years. It doesn't matter who inaccurate that assesment may be, when gas hits $4 per gallon and the price of groceries goes up, it's going to be the Republicans fault in the eyes of many.

Add to that the fact that a lot of Republicans have little time for John McCain, and we'll have an interesting contest on our hands. :D

[Sea Demon]

The Democrats are always their own worst enemy...it's amusing to watch them. :D

It is amusing to watch them destroy themselves and their party. It couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.

The problem the Republicans will face in November is that our economy will be hurting bad by then, and historically the swing voters, who usually end up deciding who gets to be President, will to some degree blame the Republicans who have been in office for the last eight years. It doesn't matter who inaccurate that assesment may be, when gas hits $4 per gallon and the price of groceries goes up, it's going to be the Republicans fault in the eyes of many.

Add to that the fact that a lot of Republicans have little time for John McCain, and we'll have an interesting contest on our hands. :D

True. People do see these things as the fault of whoever is on top. Bush can't control the price of groceries or oil commodities, yet he and Republicans will get the blame. Bush does sign the Congress's budget, so yeah, he can take the blame there. It's a shame that the Republican nominee is such a weak Republican.

I just got home from a little vacation, and have been watching this side of it with some angst. If McCain loses, he will lose because he won't be able to provide new ideas or seperate himself from current policy initiatives that are perceived to be part of his own agenda. In addition, he needs to drive the national security issue down the throats of any fence sitters thinking about voting for either of the two Dem nominees.

[dean_acheson]

BHO seriously wounded himself this morning. He had a chance to really do something that would 'unify' the country and 'change' race relations.

He threw that away.

In his speech in Philly, he could have said, my former pastor, Jerimiah Wright, whom I've know for years has made statements that are hurtful and wrong. BHO needed to say something along the lines of, the government didn't know about Pearl Harbor before it happened. The victims of 9/11 didn't deserve to die. The U.S. government did not create the Aids virus. etc. etc. etc. While my church has done wonderful things for the South Side of Chicago, and I embrace these efforts, the type of conspiratorial victimology esposued in the words of my former pastor simply tears the fabric of our society, and if we are to become a whole nation, it must be not only repudiated, but expressly rejected as untruths propogated by those who would divide us for their own benefit. (This is, of course, assuming that BHO doesn't believe these things himself.)

Instead, BHO basically said that the Wrights of the world have the right to be mad. Just like mad white people elected Reagan, as if the Carter years were bountiful and pleasant for the average American.

If he really thinks that, I'm wondering how I didn't make law review and this guy qualified to be a editor.

Can you sit on a fence less equently than this? The presentation might have been nice, but the words didn't heal, the just pointed at the tears that already exist, and embraced them, and as the Senator from Ill. so likes to tell us, words matter.

[TheSatyr]

How can someone be a member of a church for 20 years and NOT be influenced by it's Pastor?

Considering how close Obama and his wife are to Wright,there is little doubt in my mind that they agree with at least some of what Wright has preached over the years,which in my mind makes Obama far more dangerous to this country than Hillary ever could be.

As for McCain,the last thing this country needs (other than Obama) is another 4 years of a Bush clone. McCain has always been considered a "loose cannon" and not a man I would trust anywhere near the nuclear codes. Hell,when he was Governor he was considered to be a bit of a nut case.

There are no good choices for President this time around. But then there hasn't been in many years.

[NEON DEON]

I think the press must have bricks for brains.

Obama is still a member of the Trinity Church.

The Trinity church adopted The Black value system

This is on the Trinity Church's own website:

http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html

Point 1 from the black value system this church adopted in 1981:

"Commitment to God. “The God of our weary years” will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activists, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankind."


Point 8:

"Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness." Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified are separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.
Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.
Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which, while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us."
So, while it is permissible to chase "middleclassness" with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method – the psychological entrapment of Black "middleclassness." If we avoid this snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary" contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright: the leadership, resourcefulness and example of their own talented persons."

So the words of Wright are not just in his sermons but are also the actual doctine of the church.

Point 11:


"Pledge Allegiance to All Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace the Black Value System."

One of the education requirements for blacks in this black value system is the study of general semantics:

http://www.xenodochy.org/gs/wigs.html

Here is part of the post dealing with god.

"The Thomists and others attributed that domain of essences to a separate reality, one where our minds existed and also where the Gods existed. General semantics does not attribute a separate reality to essences. General semantics attributes our appreciation of essences as a natural ability of our nervous system to perform abstractions. We attribute such essences to the processes of our nervous system and not to any separate reality. The realm of essences existing as a separate reality becomes an extraneous postulate which is no longer needed to account for our observations. General semantics simply discards that realm of essences as unnecessary.
Of course, since the "gods" live in that "reality of essences", when we discard the notion of that second reality, we also discard the gods. That much of a paradigm shift is not acceptable to most people. Other devices must be created to preserve the gods under the world view of general semantics. Such devices are contrived, however, and really represent vestiges of the old paradigm. Because of this consequence of the new paradigm, there is much resistance to its acceptance. Many general semanticists stop short of changing their beliefs to be fully in accord with the new paradigm."

Say what?

Is this is a christian church or a racialy motivated political action group?

Obama can belong to this church and be President?

Geesh!

Please dont substitute the word white for the word black in regards to the black value system it might make your skin crawl.

[geetrue]

Can you sit on a fence less equently than this? The presentation might have been nice, but the words didn't heal, the just pointed at the tears that already exist, and embraced them, and as the Senator from Ill. so likes to tell us, words matter.


Wish you could've said this in front of a microphone in a man on the street interview.

I like that term fence sitter, fits Obama.

His tone was defending Pastor Wright (Lord if all the blacks think like that we need to get more security), plus he sounded tired not up beat.

He looked defeated in Texas too when he came out to talk that night, yet he only lost by 7 delegates in the end.

I'm not so ready to think Obama is going win the nomination, but those poor democrats only have one more choice and she's not my choice.

But if Obama loses we all know who to point at ... wright?

[geetrue]

Please dont substitute the word white for the word black in regards to the black value system it might make your skin crawl.

Agreed :yep:

What if Hillary or McCain's pastor, spiritual leader and friend said even just one of the statements as attributed to Rev Wright has said?

It would be a field day for the news boys ...

[The WosMan]

Hey guys, Obama has links on his website to the black panther's because they endorsed him. The guy is a real vehicle for change and racial harmony isn't he?

In all seriousness, I think Obama mortally wounded himself and has alienated a lot of independent white voters who may have considered him. Between him and the Clintons, I think the Republican party could run Nixon's severed head and it would win.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i210/holygroundhog/Futurama_nixons_head.png

[NEON DEON]

Hey guys, Obama has links on his website to the black panther's because they endorsed him. The guy is a real vehicle for change and racial harmony isn't he?

In all seriousness, I think Obama mortally wounded himself and has alienated a lot of independent white voters who may have considered him. Between him and the Clintons, I think the Republican party could run Nixon's severed head and it would win.

Yes it does seem that way.

In defense of Obama, something I dont usually do, the endorsement was on the open blog section which was open to blog posters. The site has removed it. Fox ran the story but to be honest it has no teeth.

Its like that whacky pastor endorsing McCain. How the heck is McCain going to stop someone from endorsing him.

Now had it been in the regular section now that woulda been a story:D

Fox jumps too fast sometimes.

[Tchocky]

In defense of Obama, something I dont usually do, the endorsement was on the open blog section which was open to blog posters. The site has removed it. Fox ran the story but to be honest it has no teeth. Taking a huge country like the US, and running a two-party system, this kind of thing is bound to happen. Morons and crazies have to choose between two. Most people are clever enough to realise that an endorsement cannot be controlled by a candidate, and does not change his/her views.
Like you said, news stations love it.

Its like that whacky pastor endorsing McCain. How the heck is McCain going to stop someone from endorsing him. He can't and he shouldnt stop someone from endorsing him, it's silly and really small-scale.
The difference is he actively sought the endorsement of John Hagee, and expressed honour and admiration for him once he got it. Admiration for the guy who says "all Muslims are programmed to kill, and we can't negotiate with any of them". Imagine if Rev. Wright had said the same thing about Christians.
McCain didn't have to embrace him as a "spiritual guide". Same as Guiliani did with Pat Robertson. Remember that Robertson is on record as saying that 9/11 is America's fault.

[TDK1044]

The proportional representation nature of the Democratic Delegate voting process will mean that when all the remaining States are counted, whether Michigan and Florida are part of that or not, neither Clinton or Obama will have the votes necessary to carry the day.

The Super Delegates will decide it based on arm twisting and promises from the two nominees' Chiefs Of Staff. Obama will argue publically that he has the most States and the most Delegates, and that this is a Delegate race and not a popular vote race. Hillary will argue that she has more of the popular vote and that she wins the large States and he only wins the smaller States.

Come June, Obama will have about an 80 Delegate lead in my view, and it will come down to whether the Super Delegates believe that he of Hillary stands the better chance of beating McCain. Polls taken a week or so before the convention will be critical to the outcome, but I don't think Hillary can win it facing an 80 Delegate deficit going in.

[dean_acheson]

In defense of Obama, something I dont usually do, the endorsement was on the open blog section which was open to blog posters. The site has removed it. Fox ran the story but to be honest it has no teeth. Taking a huge country like the US, and running a two-party system, this kind of thing is bound to happen. Morons and crazies have to choose between two. Most people are clever enough to realise that an endorsement cannot be controlled by a candidate, and does not change his/her views.
Like you said, news stations love it.

Its like that whacky pastor endorsing McCain. How the heck is McCain going to stop someone from endorsing him. He can't and he shouldnt stop someone from endorsing him, it's silly and really small-scale.
The difference is he actively sought the endorsement of John Hagee, and expressed honour and admiration for him once he got it. Admiration for the guy who says "all Muslims are programmed to kill, and we can't negotiate with any of them". Imagine if Rev. Wright had said the same thing about Christians.
McCain didn't have to embrace him as a "spiritual guide". Same as Guiliani did with Pat Robertson. Remember that Robertson is on record as saying that 9/11 is America's fault.

Well, McCain didn't go to Hagee's church for 20 years and dump 20K plus in donations.

Hagee didn't marry him and his second wife.

Wright's comments are a great deal sillier than Mr. Hagee's. Saying something along the lines of the Islamic faith seeming to resort to the sword alot is different than saying that the US government created the AIDs virus to keep the Black community down.

Seems to me that this will be a greater deal of hurt to the great BHO than it will be to McCain, the latter of which is not running on some platform of 'hope' and 'change' and 'kumbya.'

The horrible thing is that BHO can't deal with this in a straight-forward way. That would be for him to say something like:
'hey, basically I'm a mulatto from Hawaii, and after working as a 'community organizer' in Chicago, and then leaving for law school, I realized how ambitious I was to be a big politician. For me to solidify my 'black' credentials, I needed to join an 'authentic' church, so I choose Trinity. Fact, drive a long way from my nice neighborhood to 'worship' there. Now, it would have been impossible without the links to the community that I garned through my attendance at that church and Pastor Wright for me to get elected to the Illinois state senate without this help, so for that, I'm forever greatful. Furthermore, if this President thing doesn't work out, I'll need his help running in Illinios to keep my current job.
Now, I am running for a job in an area a bit more 'ethnically diverse' than the southside of Chicago, namely, the President of the United States. Today I admit that Pastor Wright's ramblings, I have always thought believed a bit loony and are, furthermore unacceptable to my new consituency, which is the entire American people. So I pledge today not to go to church at Trinity and have my daughters attend services in which whitey and the U S of K K K A are regularllly castigated. Furthermore, I also pledge not to let my wife talk about how embarassed she is to be an American, I pledge to salute during the national anthem, and to wear an American flag pin on my lapel."


That's it, but BHO can't say this. Instead he gives a speech in which he says, you can't blame Wright, he's mad because of the 60s. The white community is the same way, since they are mad about losing jobs because of affirmative action, that's why they voted for Reagan. People in this country are mad over race, and by electing me you can help fix the anger. I'm sorry, but the old moral equivalence arguement might work for internet posting boards, but I expect higher from somebody who claims to be leading me to the promised land.

BHO just comes off as another less than slick pol who can't be honest about who he is, or what he wants. The problem with running on a Kumbya platform is that you have to be a bit different kind of pol., which OBH ain't. Besides his skin color, that is. His great problem is that once that new wears off most Americans aren't that interested in letting an unknown quality take the helm, all the illusions to Jack Kennedy nonwithstanding.

[DeepIron]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

Interesting... The poll shows Clinton with a 7 point lead nationally....

[TDK1044]

The National poll is like a yoyo. One minute he's up and the next she is. People feed off the 'Headline Of The Day'. Only the polls taken immediately before the convention will really count in my view. :D

[geetrue]

The National poll is like a yoyo. One minute he's up and the next she is. People feed off the 'Headline Of The Day'. Only the polls taken immediately before the convention will really count in my view. :D

What convention?

The democrats cival war convention? :rotfl:

[TDK1044]

The 2008 Democratic National Convention in Denver where all of this will play out.

[AVGWarhawk]

The National poll is like a yoyo. One minute he's up and the next she is. People feed off the 'Headline Of The Day'. Only the polls taken immediately before the convention will really count in my view. :D

McCain is over both of them from what I read. Let them go at each other and make a mess of things as McCain quietly prepares his first day in office. He is doing just that with his visit to Iraq.

[DeepIron]

McCain is over both of them from what I read. Let them go at each other and make a mess of things as McCain quietly prepares his first day in office. He is doing just that with his visit to Iraq.

Yeah... And I think this is one reason the Democrats are so friggin' clueless... Too much Democratic in-fighting while the Republicans quietly actualize their plans... :roll:

[TDK1044]

Both parties are going to face some real issues. The Democrats will have a split party to unite very quickly once a nominee is chosen. There will be a lot of bad feelings in the air there. The Republicans on the other hand will be being blamed for the economic slow down, and they will have to face the fact that a lot of conservatives are luke warm towards John McCain at a time when Democratic voters are going to unite and show up in very large numbers on polling day to try and get their candidate elected.

[AVGWarhawk]

True, both parties face large issues. But, currently both Obama and Hillary are busy trying to win the nomination. Meanwhile, at the McCain Bat Cave, John is busy doing his homework and preping for the debates that are forthcoming. At least I hope he is doing this. Right now he has no campaign to run for the nomination. If he was smart, he would be doing his homework. Currently I think he is because of his visit to Iraq. We will call it a field trip for his schooling on becoming the President. :D

[dean_acheson]

I guess I'm going to flip into starry eyed mode here, but I'm not going to rack up the trip to Iraq as simple posturing.

McCain did his service for the country in a manner that none of us here can even imagine. He served honorably, as did his father, and his father before him. I believe, deep down, that he wants us to win the war on terror, and wants to know the facts on the ground.

It ain't his first trip.

Again, McCain wasn't my first pick from President, but he was my second. It wasn't very hard for me to slip into support mode.

[AVGWarhawk]

I guess I'm going to flip into starry eyed mode here, but I'm not going to rack up the trip to Iraq as simple posturing.

McCain did his service for the country in a manner that none of us here can even imagine. He served honorably, as did his father, and his father before him. I believe, deep down, that he wants us to win the war on terror, and wants to know the facts on the ground.

It ain't his first trip.

Again, McCain wasn't my first pick from President, but he was my second. It wasn't very hard for me to slip into support mode.

No doubt McCain has served and served well. Yes, he does want to win the war. I have not doubts about that either. John is there to know the facts on the ground as should any potential candidate for the Presidency. Were is Hillary and Obama? Oh yes, looking for dirty laundry on each other. :roll:

[DeepIron]

One thing I'll say for McCain, one knows where he stands on the Iraq War... Unlike the promises and vagarities of Clinton and Obama... In this regards, I see McCain as being more pragmatic and acknowledging that we're not going to be able to just "up and leave".

[geetrue]

Just read this over at Time, but I do not agree with the subject or it's author ... agreed:
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1724056,00.html?xid=feed-rss-netzero

Senator Hagel is suggesting that it is time for a third party to support a independant candidate.

"In the current impasse, an independent candidate for the presidency, or a bipartisan unity ticket ...
could be appealing to Americans," Hagel writes in "America: Our Next Chapter,"

Now that I think about it, what if Obama or Hillary should decide to run as a third candidate?

Depending on who wins, on who has the funds, who has the support, who has the moxie ... it could just happen.

I don't think either one could win a third party try for the presidency, but vainty is useless thinking.

They both have the nerve to try based on what they precieve. If they are honest and true to themselves they won't consider the third party option.

This would qualify as wrong thinking to me.

[dean_acheson]

Well, Chuck just says that stuff, because he wants to be that guy.

Don't you remember how he held that big press conference where he said he wasn't going to run as a third candidate? He's apperently still kicking it around.

This guy is really out of touch.

[dean_acheson]

For you Friday reading pleasure, here's a big pot of Hope and Change to take you through the weekend! Bon appetit!

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/photograph-of-bill-clinton-and-rev-wright-surfaces/

[dean_acheson]

I promise, after this post, I'll quit.

Ain't this a kick? After the KosKids drove this guy out of the party, through the vehicle of Ned Lamont, he's going to go a long way at doing more to bridge the left/right wing gap so decried in this country (mainly on the left) by helping get a Republican elected.

Ah, the sweet sweet irony.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080321/NATION/866784838/1001

[NEON DEON]

For you Friday reading pleasure, here's a big pot of Hope and Change to take you through the weekend! Bon appetit!

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/photograph-of-bill-clinton-and-rev-wright-surfaces/


Lashing out.

Obama campaign released what amounts to a publicity photo and form letter to the media.

CBS 2 News in Chicago released the story of Wright and not the Clinton campaign.

Nice. It did change. It meaning Obamas word changed.

I used to want closure for Obama. Now I want to vote for someone else. Anyone else. OMG I might have to vote for a-----------

:cry: Republican! :/\\!!

[dean_acheson]

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/66324.html

It's love!

[NEON DEON]

While Hillary picks at the Elephants, Obama picks at the nits.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qA_LBieb8PQ


:arrgh!:

[Iceman]

I noticed on a clip of McCain visiting France at his side was Joe Libermen I think it is...I wonder if he is considering him as a running mate...?May be a better choice than Romney and may bring less baggage along...not sure.

I did not realize he was an Independant either...Doh!

In this critical election, no one should let party lines be a barrier to choosing the person we believe is best qualified to lead our nation forward. The problems that confront us are too great, the threats we face too real, and the opportunities we have too exciting for us to play partisan politics with the Presidency.
http://johnmccain.com/Informing/News/PressReleases/0d4e5753-3895-4a16-bb4b-a4ff8b7253a9.htm?s=google&t=lieberman


Well spoken..I myself have been a registered Dem and Rep....voted for Bushes and Clinton...both times...man that would be a good ticket possibly I would think...why not have a Republican and a Democrat or Independant on the same ticket doing whats best for the country?

[dean_acheson]

Whoop! there it is!

The obligatory BHO is JCH video! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UhXaE_XL_8)

You know you want to watch it.

Or this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xtNr5-up0U

How funny for Saturday morning fare.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2404/2345062478_61e67cfe86.jpg?v=0