[REL] Prolonged DC Attack

[Peto]

VERSION 1.1 NOW AVAILABLE. LINK BELOW.

As you if you didn't have enough annoyances in your life, here comes another one ;). With this mod, expect Escort Evasion to be MUCH more difficult. Getting away can potentially take hours.

I've had various experiences while testing this--enough that I know luck is a huge factor. Don't count on luck though!!! You'll need patience and perseverance at times. Also, if you haven't been solidly contacted for 20+ minutes, it doesn't mean you have gotten away. It only means you've had a good 20 minutes :yep:.

Recommended Use:
1. Realtime
2. Give as small an aspect as possible to the escort(s). Point your stern at them.
3. patience
4. Patience
5. PATIENCE (this is not for those who want fast and furious action)

File Changes: Along with AI_Sensor changes, I've also changed some audio files. I did this because I designed the whole mod as a package to provide an effect. It's my attempt to recreate the nuances of "sweating it out", something most WWII Veterans endured. Later, I may split the sensor out for a stand-alone so people can choose their own sounds. But for now, please try it the way it's packaged. I think most of you will like it!

Included in the package are 2 scenarios (HK_Peto1 & HK_Peto2). These are simply 2 Hunter Killer scenarios to introduce you to what this mod does. I recommend using them NOT to shoot at escorts, but to learn how to evade. My tactics have changed since I've been using this but I won't tell you how ;)!

Note!!! This is Beta! PLEASE report back your experiences! This is the only way I'll be able to determine "an average" experience and tweak the mod and make it what YOU want! Information that would help:

1. Date of escort encounter
2. What escort class(es) encountered
3. Weather Conditions

It's a Buggar! Good Luck!

Currently for all versions of SH4 AFTER PATCH 1.4: http://files.filefront.com/Prolonged+DC+Attack+117z/;9205892;/fileinfo.html


AVGWarhawk has asked some Very Good Questions , so here is my "Additional Notes" section:
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1. The included scenarios are supposed to be tough. I'm throwing in a couple Bad case scenarios so you don't unwittingly blunder into them in career mode. I suggest trying the included scenarios with external view ON. (You'll probably never hear that from me again btw). It will give you a chance to see what is different. I've had to adjust some of my own methods of evasion to be successful! "Personally, I've been able to elude the DD team easier than the lone SC, I think mainly because of the weather. I've also tested this in career mode and have had times when I could just slip away. Then there were other times where it was brutal." (My quote from a later post in this thread)

2. There has been reported CTD problems with scenario HK_Peto1. I'm looking into it. If it happens, please post which mods you are using. (Looks like it may be the difference between TM and RSRD. I've now made two versions).
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Notes on Version 1.1:

One of the big changes I've made with 1.1 is the effectiveness of Thermal layers. In the stock game, I think they are far too common. However, I didn't want to eliminate them entirely so I just "turned them down". A lot actually. They will still help you but don't think that since you're beneath one you can go have supper. Chances are--if you do--you'll come back to a sunk boat and sad crew.

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You may package this with other mods but credit as appropriate. Not for Commercial use: if you make any money off this I want half and the other half goes to Neal at subsim.com!!! Without Neal, none of this would be happening so Donate Today!!!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Thanks for your work on this Peto, downloading now :up::up:
Edit: Just saw the TM reference, nice!!



RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm loading it up! :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

Just a note: I loaded with JSGME and it overwrote the ROW sound mod only. :up:

[AVGWarhawk]

A bit of confusion here. You have two threads, this one and prolong evasion. Is this just one mod or are you going somewhere with the other thread as a separate mod?

I did however take out the ROW creaking sounds and re installed after I place this mod in so I can have the creaking noise.

[Peto]

A bit of confusion here. You have two threads, this one and prolong evasion. Is this just one mod or are you going somewhere with the other thread as a separate mod?

I did however take out the ROW creaking sounds and re installed after I place this mod in so I can have the creaking noise.

This is the "Release" thread. The other one was more for the creation phase (WIP) and I thought this name was more appropriate. This is the only one with a link to the mod. I started this one in an attempt to avoid confusion :hmm:. If you think it's confusing feel free to change the title to mirror the other thread.

The creaking sounds are there. They will get louder as you go deeper. I did this so it's easier to hear incoming escorts from farther out. That has been a very important aspect in my experience so far...

Happy Hunting...er...evading!!!

:lol:

[AVGWarhawk]

Good point on the creaking and hearing DD coming in. I'm still working with the new install of it.

How about I just lock the old thread but leave the direction to this thead as the release? Sounds good to me.

[Peto]

Good point on the creaking and hearing DD coming in. I'm still working with the new install of it.

How about I just lock the old thread but leave the direction to this thead as the release? Sounds good to me.

Thanks! That'd be great!

[AVGWarhawk]

One question on this Peto, are all the DD set to be very good or is there variety of good and bad DD?

[Peto]

Very Good question. The lone Subchaser is Elite. The scenario with 2 DD's (but worse weather) is an Elite teamed with a Veteran. So it's supposed to be tough. If you can handle these guys, you should be able to handle them in career mode...

Personally, I've been able to elude the DD team easier than the lone SC, I think mainly because of the weather. I've also tested this in career mode and have had times when I could just slip away. Then there were other times where it was brutal.

FYI though: I have managed to escape both of the test scenarios included in the mod. The longest it took me was 5 hours 17 minutes ;). And it felt like I would never get away :damn:.

If I don't see a few :damn:'s in this post, I'll be surprised. But seriously, my testing results have been so unpredicatable that I needed to release this for more feedback so I can tune it. It would also be easy to make variants too.

Just waiting for results and making lasagna at the moment ;).

Thanks for your interest!!!

PS. At 1st it may be better to use external view so you can get a picture of what is going on above. That's a decision reversal from what I said in a previous post but, once you get used to how escorts act in this mod (and there is a difference IMO) it makes it a little easier.

[mrbeast]

Very Good question. The lone Subchaser is Elite. The scenario with 2 DD's (but worse weather) is an Elite teamed with a Veteran. So it's supposed to be tough. If you can handle these guys, you should be able to handle them in career mode...

Personally, I've been able to elude the DD team easier than the lone SC, I think mainly because of the weather. I've also tested this in career mode and have had times when I could just slip away. Then there were other times where it was brutal.

FYI though: I have managed to escape both of the test scenarios included in the mod. The longest it took me was 5 hours 17 minutes ;). And it felt like I would never get away :damn:.

If I don't see a few :damn:'s in this post, I'll be surprised. But seriously, my testing results have been so unpredicatable that I needed to release this for more feedback so I can tune it. It would also be easy to make variants too.

Just waiting for results and making lasagna at the moment ;).

Thanks for your interest!!!

PS. At 1st it may be better to use external view so you can get a picture of what is going on above. That's a decision reversal from what I said in a previous post but, once you get used to how escorts act in this mod (and there is a difference IMO) it makes it a little easier.

When you say 5 hours are you talking in real time, i.e. 5 hours of solid play or 5 hours in the game? If you understand what I mean. :hmm:

[Peto]

Real time. I haven't tested this with time compression/ not sure how it would work.

[AVGWarhawk]

Issue with the HK Peto1 mission. I did this twice. Fire torpedoes and as they head towards the DD I get a CTD. Not sure why. All looks well and then a crash.

[Peto]

Issue with the HK Peto1 mission. I did this twice. Fire torpedoes and as they head towards the DD I get a CTD. Not sure why. All looks well and then a crash.

Hmm. Not sure what in the wide, wide world of sports would cause that!?! There isn't anything torpedo related in there that I can think of. I'll check it out though! I've never fired torps in the mission myself. Always too scared and lurking wayyy down there ;). Did you try that in the other scenario?

I'll be back after I check that out. Thank You for the Heads Up :up:

[Factor]

i have CTD in the same single mission also, but its when the enemy gets close, ive never fired any torps in the mission.

[Laffertytig]

i havent tried your mod yet but have to say ive invested many hours in SH3 and SH4 messing with sound files so i could get the das boot effect of the destroyers props rushing as it got closer to no avail. the best i can seem to get is when the dd moves within 100 metres and even then its still not loud.

may i ask what tools or methods you used to enhance the sound?

[Peto]

i havent tried your mod yet but have to say ive invested many hours in SH3 and SH4 messing with sound files so i could get the das boot effect of the destroyers props rushing as it got closer to no avail. the best i can seem to get is when the dd moves within 100 metres and even then its still not loud.

may i ask what tools or methods you used to enhance the sound?

Actually, all I've used for this stuff has been Audacity (free down-load). I just pull up the file and tweak volumes and EQ certain frequencies to raise/reduce certain levels. In "Effects" there are quite a few handy tools to use. In a nut shell, they're just the same files tweaked. Didn't touch the Escort audio files though--the screw sounds are stock.

As far as CTD issues with HK_Peto1: I just fired it up and Wasted 6 Torpedos only to prove that it's hard to hit a DD that knows I'm there (well--I'm a lousy shot). So, tax payers, please blame AVGWarhawk for that frivolous expenditure ;). Seriously, I don't know what is wrong there. Might be a bad upload--not sure. I'll try repacking the mod and run it up the pipe again. Have to see if anyone has problems after that...

Question: What mods are you using (if any). Maybe there is a problem there...?

Keep the info coming!

[AVGWarhawk]

The second mission worked just fine although I had blown the bugger out of the water.:smug: I was picked up at about 3000 yards and I did a head on shot. Then again, I suspect you just wanted me to be detected and attempt evading. I will do so next run:up:

The only other mod that might affect the first mission is RSRD. My others are just textures.

[Factor]

im running RSRD also, and foofighters textures.

as long as it dont happen in career, its all good.

[Peto]

The second mission worked just fine although I had blown the bugger out of the water.:smug: I was picked up at about 3000 yards and I did a head on shot. Then again, I suspect you just wanted me to be detected and attempt evading. I will do so next run:up:

The only other mod that might affect the first mission is RSRD. My others are just textures.

Thank You! I'm thinking that it could very well be RSRD (my bad--certainly not Lurker :up:) as I'm running TM 1.7 when creating those scenarios. I'll get it figured out and see if I need to make a couple versions.

And yes--give the poor little guy a chance AVG LOL!!!

[AVGWarhawk]

im running RSRD also, and foofighters textures.

as long as it dont happen in career, its all good.

It might be this particular DD maybe? Not sure. I'm throwing caution to the wind and also being a tester as it were.....I'm running it in a career to see how she goes! The more and more I look at this the more and more I'm liking this piece of modding work. :yep:

Besides, the foundations of large mod packages is starting to grow in TM and RFB. ROW and RSRD are now being melded together with these two mods. NSM has found its way into them. I forsee this little gem doing the same. Lets test away!

Besides, I'm see Peto working on this and that, helping the other modders. Who am I to stiffle his creativity?

[Peto]

I'll make a RSRD version just in case. Will post here when I upload it.

Thanks AVGWarhawk!!!

[AVGWarhawk]

I'll make a RSRD version just in case. Will post here when I upload it.


See....happening already:D I just love you guys. You make my day just fun as can be:rock:

[Peto]

OK. It's posted (link on 1st post of this thread). The only thing I could think off the top was a difference in ship files between TM and RSRD. So I remade HK_Peto1 (renamed HK_Peto) using an install of RSRD . Let's see if that works.

:up:

[Der Teddy Bar]

In SH3 & SH4 how long the escorts stayed around was determined by the Lost contact time=. This one value was for all escorts regardless if they were convoy escorts, port escorts and hunter killer groups.

With SH4 1.3 onwards there has been major improvement to the previous one size fits all of the Lost contact time=

The time that non convoy escort stays hunting the submarine is now calculated as 2 * (skill * 4 + 2) * lost_contact_time -/+30%. Skill being 0 - 1 where 1 is elite.

So for a non convoy elite escort that might be ….
2 * (1 *4 +2) = 12
12 * 15 = 180
180 -/+ 30%=54
180 – or + 54 = 126 to 234 minutes

So for a non convoy escort that might be ….
2 * (0.6 *4 +2) = 8.8
8.8 * 15 = 132
132 -/+ 30%= 39.6
132 – or + 36.9 = 92 to 172 minutes

NOTE: The time is now calculated from the time that the escort arrives on location. For this example I will use the random Lost contact time of 172 minutes. Assuming that the escort is within 20k, the maximum distance to which an escort will respond, and the escort will take 60 minutes to arrive at you last known location, then the random Lost contact time once the escort arrives on location will be 172 minutes and not 112 minutes i.e. 172-60.

For convoy escort the Lost contact time= stays the same with the only change being that the time is now calculated from the time that the escort arrives on location.

[Peto]

With SH4 1.3 onwards there has been major improvement to the previous one size fits all of the Lost contact time



Thank You for posting this Teddy Bar! I knew that there was a new formula being used and it wasn't as simple as a config file somewhere.

I may be able to use that knowledge for a couple ideas I have brewing.

:up:

[Laffertytig]

does the dd skill level affect how well they track u in this mod? and can it be installed at port mid campaign?

[Peto]

does the dd skill level affect how well they track u in this mod? and can it be installed at port mid campaign?

To my understanding, enemy AI skill level reflects a units Range capability. In other words: an Elite escort uses 100% of a sensors rated range, a veteran uses only 90% of that range and so on. I'm not sure exactly what the percentages are, (and I'm not absolutely positive I am correct). So--that does result in higher skill level escorts being able to track you better as their "close range" is longer than lower AI levels (close range being a percentage of total range).

Short Answer--Yes--the AI skill level does affect tracking skill.

Installing this while in port should be fine.

[AVGWarhawk]

Peto, before this gets buried. How are you coming along with some other ideas you had for this?

[Peto]

Peto, before this gets buried. How are you coming along with some other ideas you had for this?

Well--I'm working on some SD Radar stuff which will be a separate thing. The biggest thing that would enhance this package is some depth charge/ escort mods that tater is working on. I think when he's got that, combined with this it could be great for the Historical crowd. I'm also trying it out as a "Mood Mod" something that you can enable/disable during a patrol--so you're not always faced with long pursuits.

And I was hoping for more info on how this works by those who try it. I'm not upset at all ;)--was just hoping for some feedback. I know it may need some tweaking but I'd like to know what people are experiencing even (or especially) if it's no difference. I think the 1.4 has taken center stage (rightfully so).

Did it make a difference for your evasion experience?

[AVGWarhawk]

I did not install it with the RFB 1.4 version as yet. Do you think it will be ok to drop this in after ROW/RFB/RSRD? I would suspect it would just overwright some of the RFB sensor changes. Let me know and I will load it up for a run!:yep:

[Peto]

I did not install it with the RFB 1.4 version as yet. Do you think it will be ok to drop this in after ROW/RFB/RSRD? I would suspect it would just overwright some of the RFB sensor changes. Let me know and I will load it up for a run!:yep:

It should be fine IMO. The only major file that is modified is AI_sensors. I've even run a couple tests where I can use the mod for part of a patrol and then disable it between boots and it seems to work OK. As long as there aren't any ships in the area that are resident in memory anyway. More testing required to be positive though.

If there are changes in RFB that this mod affects, I could easily make a version for that too.

[AVGWarhawk]

Currently I have saved a convoy in my sights but being that this is my first patrol and only 600nm for Java, I will restart with this mod added and find the convoy again.:up: This should be interesting as for now I keep outside views on. Before I saved I took a peek and found the convoy had 4-5 DD/subchasers.:o

In the spirit of adding some pucker factor and having a depth charges rolling down my deck for hours......this just might be the ticket for that!!!! Like I stated before, battery life and CO2 are a none factor when under attack. The DD give up to easily. I for one have no issue slugging it out for an hour or so. Or maybe longer!

I will let you know what happens.

[swdw]

In the "way back" days, part of the 'thrill' of attacking a convoy in Silent Service was having to actually maneuver in order to avoid DC's. Twisting, turning, short hi speed runs right after the DC's went off were all needed. If you didn't, you were sunk. (Guilty as charged, hadn't played a sub sim since Silent Service 2- not SH2, but SS2)

Although far short of SH4 in a bajillion of ways, the difference in the old SS games and SH4 in this aspect dissapointed me the first time I was attacked in SH4.

Just spiraled down to the layer and putt putted off to new hunting grounds.

[swdw]

Peto, before this gets buried. How are you coming along with some other ideas you had for this?
Well--I'm working on some SD Radar stuff which will be a separate thing. The biggest thing that would enhance this package is some depth charge/ escort mods that tater is working on. I think when he's got that, combined with this it could be great for the Historical crowd. I'm also trying it out as a "Mood Mod" something that you can enable/disable during a patrol--so you're not always faced with long pursuits.

Did it make a difference for your evasion experience?

Was too busy patchin RFB to give this a try yet, but fully intend to now that the patch is up.

As for the sensor changes in RFB, LukeFF can give you detailed info on what he's done. One of the things he did was modify all the AI radar settings to give them the max range for detecting a sub.

He also did some changes already with the sub sensors. You might want to PM him and the 2 of you could put your heads together on this.

[Peto]

As for the sensor changes in RFB, LukeFF can give you detailed info on what he's done. One of the things he did was modify all the AI radar settings to give them the max range for detecting a sub.

He also did some changes already with the sub sensors. You might want to PM him and the 2 of you could put your heads together on this.

Sounds good. If those are the only changes he's made it'd be a snap modding this in to see how it works. Thanks swdw :up:

[Wilcke]

This is very interesting, I can see this melding well with the DC mod, since those DDs and Escorts carry realistic DC loads and cannot just sit there and dump 240+ cans on you.

Indeed, very much interested........yes!:up:

Wilcke

[AVGWarhawk]

Gents, I'm dropping in the first attempt of this mod tonight. It will be behind RFB/ROW/RSRD. Should be fine as far as I can tell. Let me see how she goes.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Between using this and Trigger, there is no hope now :o:o


RDP

[Peto]

Between using this and Trigger, there is no hope now :o:o


RDP

:lol: Actually--I think you'll find this to completely change your evasion experience. All you need is paaaaaaattttienccccccccccceeeee ;).

EDIT: With a capital P

[AVGWarhawk]

Between using this and Trigger, there is no hope now :o:o


RDP

This is a little different spin on it. What is being attempted here is to have the DD keep you down longer. In other words, the DD give up after losing you after so many minutes. Hopefully with this the DD will have a longer searching time and a bit better sensors to keep in contact thus creating longer evasion time required. Also, not all escorts are veteran killers. There is some mix and match so every encounter is not long, just a few. This will allow some other factors to enter your mind....battery life and CO2 levels. Right now, these are two non-factors in evading. Usually you are up and out after 15 minutes. That is fine for the casual gamer but the hardcore lunatics like myself would like this element.

Also, add this in with RFB under running torps and duds......can add to some realism....especially if you try a head on with the DD and you have a bad batch of torps. You are going to get it for an hour or so:dead:

[ReallyDedPoet]

Between using this and Trigger, there is no hope now :o:o


RDP

This is a little different spin on it. What is being attempted here is to have the DD keep you down longer. In other words, the DD give up after losing you after so many minutes. Hopefully with this the DD will have a longer searching time and a bit better sensors to keep in contact thus creating longer evasion time required. Also, not all escorts are veteran killers. There is some mix and match so every encounter is not long, just a few. This will allow some other factors to enter your mind....battery life and CO2 levels. Right now, these are two non-factors in evading. Usually you are up and out after 15 minutes. That is fine for the casual gamer but the hardcore lunatics like myself would like this element.

Also, add this in with RFB under running torps and duds......can add to some realism....especially if you try a head on with the DD and you have a bad batch of torps. You are going to get it for an hour or so:dead:
Yeah I like this feature, I meant that as a compliment :yep::up:

In Trigger planes can now see you when you are submerged on a clear day, calm seas. I was doing an insertion mission last night, I got into shallower waters, but the seas were calm, could not escape from the bombings. Next time I will go, it will be at night or in heavier seas.

All of this is really adding to the experience, you really have to think things out.


RDP

[Peto]

Yes. I've found that I'm a little more thoughtful about which fights I choose to get in now. In clear weather (sonar) conditions, I feel like I'm poking a stick in a hornet's nest when I fire a torpedo. It adds a certain aspect that I was missing before. Caution ;).

[ReallyDedPoet]

Yes. I've found that I'm a little more thoughtful about which fights I choose to get in now. In clear weather (sonar) conditions, I feel like I'm poking a stick in a hornet's nest when I fire a torpedo. It adds a certain aspect that I was missing before. Caution ;).

Great mod Peto, it really has added to the experience big-time :up:


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

The plane sighting you under water aspect is a cool idea and realistic from what I have read. I guess this mod and the aircraft sighting you mod would make you think twice.

The realism is coming along quite nicely! Now, someone is working on the night sensor mod:hmm: I forget who. This needs work for sure. Night time is the right time for surface attacks:yep:

[ReallyDedPoet]

The plane sighting you under water aspect is a cool idea and realistic from what I have read. I guess this mod and the aircraft sighting you mod would make you think twice.

The realism is coming along quite nicely! Now, someone is working on the night sensor mod:hmm: I forget who. This needs work for sure. Night time is the right time for surface attacks:yep:

Game play is catching up with the eye-candy, its a great experience now with lots of potential going forward.


RDP

[AVGWarhawk]

The potential is awesome. A lot of new faces with new ideas and know how. Always a good thing.

All I can be tester and cheerleader. I can not mod to save my butt!:oops:

[tater]

The plane sighting you under water aspect is a cool idea and realistic from what I have read. I guess this mod and the aircraft sighting you mod would make you think twice.

The realism is coming along quite nicely! Now, someone is working on the night sensor mod:hmm: I forget who. This needs work for sure. Night time is the right time for surface attacks:yep:

Me. I have multiple visual nodes, but I need to check vs 1.4 and make sure I'm good to go with 1.4. Happily, I have the new visuals in their own dat instead of mucking around with the stock one.

I was waist deep in it, and decided it would be wise to wait on the new 1.4 visuals before getting past my neck.

tater

[AVGWarhawk]

The plane sighting you under water aspect is a cool idea and realistic from what I have read. I guess this mod and the aircraft sighting you mod would make you think twice.

The realism is coming along quite nicely! Now, someone is working on the night sensor mod:hmm: I forget who. This needs work for sure. Night time is the right time for surface attacks:yep:
Me. I have multiple visual nodes, but I need to check vs 1.4 and make sure I'm good to go with 1.4. Happily, I have the new visuals in their own dat instead of mucking around with the stock one.

I was waist deep in it, and decided it would be wise to wait on the new 1.4 visuals before getting past my neck.

tater
I hear ya Tater. Work this in with this mod and nastier DC and we have the pucker factor present that all enjoy with the SH3 mods. :up: Right now stock is missing the pucker. With this mod and better DD, visual from aircraft added. Now when the DD turn towards you, you will say, "Oh Christ here he comes" instead of "Big deal". That is the pucker factor.

[tater]

Well, tuning up the DC damage so that a single hit can actually hurt you is a big step.

Right now, the type 95s are equal to what you are used to in stock, but with a shorter MaxRadius (16m instead of RFB's 10m, or TM's 14.5, vs stock 40m). Upping the MaxRadius will result in more light DC damage, but it also means that many not so near misses slowly eat your boat away. I might actually up the radius some, the new hull %, while not liked by me in game, will prove a useful tool.

The reality is that a realistic DC mod will likely make them much nastier for a very close hit, but less nasty overall. In addition ships will virtually always have far fewer DCs to drop. Combined with Peto's mod here, that works out since they won't dump 80 DCs in 20 minutes any more, lol, maybe 20 hours instead :D

The reality is that IJN DC attacks were not terribly effective at making kills. These kind of mods are the way to increase survivability, IMO. They also serve to reduce tonnages.

tater

[rascal101]

Great mod, have played a new career with it installed.

I had the most amazing time off Tokyo Bay. Detected a merchant, sank it, just as I was feeling smug, destroyer sighted, coming in fast and pissed off! dived deep and buggered off. Heard another merchant, chased and sank it, then another to the east, on the way got into trouble with the same destroyer as before, this time he kept me down for a long time, didnt drop everything he had at once, but dCs in ones or twos .

Was able to time compress no worries as I went deeper than my subs official diving depth. Caught up with the new merchant contact but could'nt give him a go as the original destroyer was still around.

All this over about a twenty four hour period, this mod is great, its real, I even bit my finger nails trying to get away from the destroyer

Real time. I haven't tested this with time compression/ not sure how it would work.

[Lopo]

Thanks a million for this great mod! I like it.
I tried it alone and now would like to play it with others mods... if I have TM1.7.1+RDRS1.14+NSM3.3 which version may I download? Which one for TM or RDRS?

[Peto]

Thanks a million for this great mod! I like it.
I tried it alone and now would like to play it with others mods... if I have TM1.7.1+RDRS1.14+NSM3.3 which version may I download? Which one for TM or RDRS?

Thanks for the feedback! Go with the RSRD if you have installed over TM.

:up:

[Lopo]

Thanks a million for this great mod! I like it.
I tried it alone and now would like to play it with others mods... if I have TM1.7.1+RDRS1.14+NSM3.3 which version may I download? Which one for TM or RDRS?
Thanks for the feedback! Go with the RSRD if you have installed over TM.

:up:

And now Peto I would take many months to play this great game!
Thanks again for your interesting mod!

[AVGWarhawk]

I loaded up this mod behind ROW/RFB/RSRD. A few sound file changes and a change in sensor (expected here) that RFB had. Off I go.:smug:

[AVGWarhawk]

Peto!!!!!!!! Just beautiful! I contacted two aircraft tenders(thanks to RSRD) that have that mini sub on deck. Tracked the buggers for two hours with all my neat toys(thanks to RFB). It got to be daylight and I had my back to the sun(thanks to ROW) and was spotted. The tenders took off, the two subchaser took to me like flies on pooh(thanks to the evasion mod) or lack there of in my case:oops: . I was schuk'in and jiviing at 350 feet. Silent. My results:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2007-12-03_195420_187.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2007-12-03_195409_796.jpg
My AA gunner is dead. The entire watch is dead. Everyone else is bleeding pints of blood. Just a really bad day. The death screen afforded me some time to hit the emergency blow but I was too deep. That is all she wrote.

Evasion is a bit more taxing now to say the least!!!! The last thing the sailor above said to me was 'No you sunk us you stupid a$$!'

Nice work here Peto. You really have to work on getting away and I recommend real time and thermal layers have to become your very best friend here. Wait until Bill Nichols trys this one out.

Just one thing, make sure these meetings like this that there are good DD and lousy DD. If they are all good my hair will get grayer than it already is!!!:o

BTW, worked just great with all the mods combined. This mod really reeks of some reality:rock:

[Peto]

Glad to hear you enjoyed it/Sorry I contributed to your demise ;)! As a coincidence, I got sunk earlier today myself (so much for "a nice liesurely depth charging" :lol: ). I blamed my demise on tater's new depth charge mod though. It's ok to get sunk if you have someone else to blame :up: !!!

As far as escort experience: Yes--if you run into a team of elites, you're in trouble. Simple as that :yep:. Especially if the weather is good. That's one of the things I like though--you see what's there but now you have to worry, "How good are these guys?" :hmm: Subchasers are the most dangerous IMO. They turn on a dime.

Cheers! And Thanks!

[AVGWarhawk]

It was a clear day. I do not recall my crewman stating we hit a thermal layer. I was busy getting my drawers out of a wad they became. In all reality, I had a bad set up. I could not get ahead of them and daylight was coming. Just bad decisions from the start on my part. :oops: Risk taking days are numbered here.

Tater did the DC mod? Nice work Tater. Lights flickering, glass breaking. Water water everywhere......bad scene thanks to Tater.

Oh I forgot, I attempted a head on with the chaser. My torps under ran him. Where in the heck is Admiral Lockwood. We need to talk!

[tater]

The type 95s are actually less dangerous than stock DCs by a fair bit. Same damage value, less than half the max radius, and 1/3 slower fall rate. The 162kg type 2 DCs are nasty business, however. The damage value is considerably higher, and the radius slightly higher.

If you took a lot of damage from one hit, he must have shacked you.

Late in the war kaibokans are from hell with the DC mod. Bad, bad mojo in shallow water. A 200m circle of death around those puppies.

tater

[claybirdd]

downloading now currently using TM1.7+RSRD. Am getting RSRD version. Will start a new career as im only 6 days out in Jan 42. I can tell by Warhawk'sposts that this one will both be fun and a doosey. Wish me luck.

[Peto]

downloading now currently using TM1.7+RSRD. Am getting RSRD version. Will start a new career as im only 6 days out in Jan 42. I can tell by Warhawk'sposts that this one will both be fun and a doosey. Wish me luck.

Good Luck ;)

:up:

[rascal101]

Just a thought you are definatly on a winner with this mod, just wondering if its possible to schedule the appearance of more elete escort captains so there are fewer in the beginning years of the war but more and more as the war progresses.

We know Jap AS capabilities were minimal at the start of hostilities but got better as the war progressed

Its great that we have to take a bit more notice of the escorts now, but I hope we dont find them detecting us way too early making it impossible for us ever to close with the enemy.

[Drakken]

Also, now that the escorts are much deadlier now with this mod, perhaps we could have a few basic tips on how to evade those damn bastards when they have spotted us. When to go flank? When to turn ahead full on port or starboard? When to stay completely immobile on stop under the thermal layer?

These questions are quite basic, I know. But I'm sure a few short treaties on the subject will increase the survival of other skippers. :)

[Peto]

rascal101: After I get a little more feedback about how this mod is affecting peoples game experience, I can tweak it a little in an effort to make early war guys a little less nasty. There is also work being done by tater on the escorts themselves which (when released) will Greatly affect this aspect. But you are spt on with your assessment. I agree completely. :yep:

Drakken: Tips and Hints time huh? :hmm: Well... The main thing is keeping your butt pointed at them. Hard to do if there's 2 or more but I've found (by MANY hours of testing) that they'll eventually make a mistake and bunch up. Sometimes I can slink away then. Not always. Remeber they have a large blind spot now. If you're at 300 feet they'll lose you on the way in. BIG TIP!!!!! Do NOT immediately speed up! They'll get you on pasive! Wait until they are committed to their run before you sprint and then kick it down. If there is only one escort on you, get in his baffles when he passes over you--kick it down for a bit (depending on escorts turning radius) and try to get some distance. It takes practice.

Learn how to make longer shots. US Subs used to shoot from 2000+ often. learning to be a long shooter can save your bacon. The best way to evade is not to get located in the first place :yep:!

Let me know if you have more questions. But be aware--I'm still figuring this out myself!

Peto

[Peto]

I hope we dont find them detecting us way too early making it impossible for us ever to close with the enemy.

I forgot to respond to this. The chances of them detecting you on the way in haven't changed. this mod only deals with Active Sonar. What they generally detect you with is--shall I say?--more Passive. So sneak in and you should have the same chances as you did before.

[rascal101]

Thanks for this, I remember in SH3 and in other mods, any attempt to make escorts more chellenging usually meant they aquired psychic powers, your mod has dealt with this right nice in that it only has honed their skills once they know your there.


I hope we dont find them detecting us way too early making it impossible for us ever to close with the enemy.
I forgot to respond to this. The chances of them detecting you on the way in haven't changed. this mod only deals with Active Sonar. What they generally detect you with is--shall I say?--more Passive. So sneak in and you should have the same chances as you did before.

[DrBeast]

Peto!!!!!!!! Just beautiful! I contacted two aircraft tenders(thanks to RSRD) that have that mini sub on deck. Tracked the buggers for two hours with all my neat toys(thanks to RFB). It got to be daylight and I had my back to the sun(thanks to ROW) and was spotted. The tenders took off, the two subchaser took to me like flies on pooh(thanks to the evasion mod) or lack there of in my case:oops: . I was schuk'in and jiviing at 350 feet. Silent. My results:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q62/avgwarhawk/SH4Img2007-12-03_195420_187.jpg



I couldn't help but notice, you've got that green outline too, eh? I wonder if it's driver-related...? When I got my new card (the X1650 Pro), I also installed the newest batch of drivers (7.10 at that time), and I'm having that outline ever since. I wonder if I should go on a hunt for older drivers :hmm:

Peto, your mod certainly sounds promising, I think I'll give it a go. Problem is, I haven't patched to 1.4 yet (waiting for Leo to get ROW 1.4-ready), so I don't know if it's safe to install on 1.3. I'll download it nevertheless and take a peek at what files are involved (should give me a clue as to whether it's 1.3-compatible). I'll certainly dissect the AI_Sensors file, I too am tweaking that one, and seeing others' people work always gives my brain a jog in the right direction. :up:

[Drakken]

Drakken: Tips and Hints time huh? :hmm: Well... The main thing is keeping your butt pointed at them. Hard to do if there's 2 or more but I've found (by MANY hours of testing) that they'll eventually make a mistake and bunch up. Sometimes I can slink away then. Not always. Remeber they have a large blind spot now. If you're at 300 feet they'll lose you on the way in. BIG TIP!!!!! Do NOT immediately speed up! They'll get you on pasive! Wait until they are committed to their run before you sprint and then kick it down. If there is only one escort on you, get in his baffles when he passes over you--kick it down for a bit (depending on escorts turning radius) and try to get some distance. It takes practice.

Learn how to make longer shots. US Subs used to shoot from 2000+ often. learning to be a long shooter can save your bacon. The best way to evade is not to get located in the first place :yep:!

Let me know if you have more questions. But be aware--I'm still figuring this out myself!

Well, yesterday I tried to make an end around move to place myself in front of a convoy sorting from the Japanese islands, but two destroyers spotted me trying to speed up at Ahead Flank to get in front of them.

At first I was able to get under the thermal layer and stay in the hole while they were searching for me with their ASDIC. I even managed to get in perfect line in front, then behind one of the destroyers. But I made the mistake of trying to speed up at Flank to get away, and they soon spotted me and raked me with DCs. I died at the second attack. :cry:

So, that is why I ask when it is preferable to stay at the bottom at Stop, and when to use Flank speed.

[Lopo]

So, that is why I ask when it is preferable to stay at the bottom at Stop, and when to use Flank speed.

In my opinion, never stay at the bottom, go ahead deeply and slowly breaking direction in silence... I live through my first DC attack like that... it take me hours to go away!

Good luck!

[Peto]

Peto, your mod certainly sounds promising, I think I'll give it a go. Problem is, I haven't patched to 1.4 yet (waiting for Leo to get ROW 1.4-ready), so I don't know if it's safe to install on 1.3. :up:

Prolonged DC Attack is 1.3 OK to Go!

Drakken: I agree with Lopo--I never go less than 1 knot (but I do use 1 knot speeds at times). I have gone to ground a couple times when I was in shallow water and had it work (haven't tried in this mod).

[AVGWarhawk]

Just a thought you are definatly on a winner with this mod, just wondering if its possible to schedule the appearance of more elete escort captains so there are fewer in the beginning years of the war but more and more as the war progresses.

We know Jap AS capabilities were minimal at the start of hostilities but got better as the war progressed

Its great that we have to take a bit more notice of the escorts now, but I hope we dont find them detecting us way too early making it impossible for us ever to close with the enemy.
There might be two ways to go about the gradual increase of better ASW:

1. In the early years reduce the amount of very hostile DD. Basically fewer incounters with the killers....a % type deal

2. Set it up year by year gradually making the DD more aggressive.

Personally, I think the first choice might be the easier than the second choice, time wise. Just guessing here as I do not understand the file structure.

[Peto]

Just a thought you are definatly on a winner with this mod, just wondering if its possible to schedule the appearance of more elete escort captains so there are fewer in the beginning years of the war but more and more as the war progresses.

We know Jap AS capabilities were minimal at the start of hostilities but got better as the war progressed

Its great that we have to take a bit more notice of the escorts now, but I hope we dont find them detecting us way too early making it impossible for us ever to close with the enemy.
There might be two ways to go about the gradual increase of better ASW:

1. In the early years reduce the amount of very hostile DD. Basically fewer incounters with the killers....a % type deal

2. Set it up year by year gradually making the DD more aggressive.

Personally, I think the first choice might be the easier than the second choice, time wise. Just guessing here as I do not understand the file structure.

Actually--it's easier than might appear. In game: There are different models of the Active Sonar. In reality, there was little performance difference between them for Active--there were improvements in Passive technology. Later in the war Japan also acquired some sonar equipment from Germany (S-Gerat). But--I ramble :hmm:

Short version: The early war sonar is already Slightly less effective than mid/late war. That way, Campaigns don't have to be meticulously picked through to change escort crew qualities. And each sonar model can be further tweaked as needed.

I'm trying to design this mod to represent historical accuracy without negatively impacting modding work that has preceded.

Cheers!

[tater]

In stock, the early war escorts aree set to be total idiots in convoys, and get better I think as the war progresses. The TF escorts start better, and become universal elite akizukis later, lol (though the invasion of malaya, etc is 50% akizukis in stock, too (odd since there weren't any ;) ).

ICL and RSRD change this totally and you see more of a balance. My baseline for IJN escorts is competent, they are not lower, and veteran is more common with a sprinkling of elites. I haven't counted in RSRD, but I think we have similar philosophies regarding crew quality.

TM is a different issue. The skills are compressed with competent and vet being virtually all the skills seen.

In addition to skill level, you also need to remember that the sensors themselves change with time, as do the offensive capabilities—assuming you use my DC mod (which you do in RSRD). Early war a DD might have only 18 DCs, others might have 36, later on you'll see some with 80. Combined with better sensor packages (notably RADAR), this makes them nastier as the war goes on. With the Kaibokans (bashed Evarts) you see some escorts from hell, frankly. 120 DCs on a platform that can throw 10-12 at you in 1 pass.


tater

[tater]

Peto, let me know if you need any new sensors that don't exist, they are easy to add, and for compatibility sake, they needn't even be in the AI_Sensors.dat, we can use a new file name.

[AVGWarhawk]

This is great! I had just a great time with last nights DC ending career. This mod much needed:up:

[Wilcke]

With the Kaibokans (bashed Evarts) you see some escorts from hell, frankly. 120 DCs on a platform that can throw 10-12 at you in 1 pass.tater

Be afraid, very afraid! I suppose you do not even want to go near one of these.:nope: Just run and run fast....but quitely! Shhhhhh!

This is good stuff!:up:

Wilcke

[tater]

BTW, I think the historically ideal end result would be that assuming the skipper fights the boat during DC attacks at some basic skill level, the DC attack should be long, but ultimately not successful the large majority of the time.

Since this is a function of the sensors, and not the skill level, largely, there is a way to tweak things a little. We can make variant escorts with these sensors, and others with a different set to mix things up a little (might be similar, but with a much reduced range, or something).

Making "Bungo Pete Clone" variants is trivial to do. Just give the variant a ship name within the class in question (or one the SH4 Class subs for). In this way you'd see more variability in their operations.

[Peto]

Peto, let me know if you need any new sensors that don't exist, they are easy to add, and for compatibility sake, they needn't even be in the AI_Sensors.dat, we can use a new file name.

All I did at this point is tweak existing sensor platforms. What I am most concerned about is Type 3 Sonar which works differently than Type 93. I don't thaink we need any new ones for escorts because we can tweak these as needed.

Here's a list:

Type 93-1a: 2300 meter range/Sonar Cone 91-100/Sensitivity 0.026
Type 93-3a: 2400 meter range/Sonar Cone 91-100/Sensitivity 0.027
Type 93-5a: 2500 meter range/Sonar Cone 91-100/Sensitivity 0.027
(All these sensitivities were MUCH higher in stock.)
Type 3-1a: 1600 meter range/sonar cone 92-110/Sensitivity 0.029
Type 3-3a: 1800 meter range/sonar cone 91-112/Sensitivity 0.03

The sensors I am the most iffy/concerned about are the Type 3's. I'm doing more testing with those now. They have shorter range but but their lower detection angle makes up for that (smaller blind spot). Also, they have their sensitivty increased--maybe too much. The increased range reflects that these sensors operated at a lower frequency. (Those familiar with Allied Type 147 Sword sonar know what I mean). That's why I need more input with as much info as I can get.

What to report:

1. Date of Encounter
2. Class of Escort or Escorts involved
3. Weather Conditions

When I get enough of that info, I can build a case that establishes what changes need to be made (if any). I can test for hours and hours (and have) but there is just too much influence of the X factor (luck) to be positive of an average. I'm counting on the community here for some input.

What I have heard so far is positive and I'm happy about that. I'd actually expected more :damn: :hmm:!

Keep the info and questions coming! It all helps!

Peto

[AVGWarhawk]

Tater:
the DC attack should be long, but ultimately not successful the large majority of the time.

I agree here. Need to find a nice balance. I think you two can:know:

[Peto]

Sensor Configuration Notes: From what I've found about Type Type 3 Sonar, it didn't enter service until Nov 44.

http://navalhistory.flixco.info/H/267250x119821/8330/a0.htm

The same source lists 3 models of Type 93 Sonar but only 1 (93-1) was used destroyers. The other 2 were used in cruisers.

Still digging though...

[AVGWarhawk]

I found a convoy with some not so good DD. Had my fun and had many duds/under runners. :damn: I also had my first circle runner. Fortunate that I shot and dived right after I pulled the trigger. Now were in the hell is Admiral Lockwood? These torpedoes need fixing!!!! :rotfl:

[Ducimus]

My baseline for IJN escorts is competent, they are not lower, and veteran is more common with a sprinkling of elites. I haven't counted in RSRD, but I think we have similar philosophies regarding crew quality.

TM is a different issue. The skills are compressed with competent and vet being virtually all the skills seen.

In addition to skill level, you also need to remember that the sensors themselves change with time,

I guess ill explain myself. Since im sure somebody might be wondering, "why did he do that?"

When i adjusted the AI, i had serveral things weight on my mind.

- past experience with the AI in SH3, and a mindset that it engrained in me. Its been my experience that crew ratings 0, and 1, are not worth spit. Utterly retarded, they may as well not exist at all. Crew rating 2 and 3 seemed be ok, but 4, was the exact opposite of crew ratings 0 and 1. Since i was UPPING the AI,s detection, by default, they become too much. WIth 0 and 1 being kicked out of the game with extreme prejidice.

- Should not be as hard as SH3, which was an atlantic game where the allies creamed the Kreigsmarine. Jap ASW, isn't THAT good.

- Change as litlte variables as possible so i don't have to test it as throughly, which by my standards would take weeks :roll: (beleive it or not :roll: )

With these in mind, i made my changes very surgical in nature, and i aimed for what i thought was a sure fire adjustment. A massive revamp of the AI ive more or less avoided, seeings how ive been doing such adjustments on my own, without any means of real serious testing. Of course me throwing in aircraft with MK II eyeballs later on negates that statement, but there it is. :rotfl:

[tater]

I agree on the lower skill levels for any IJN ships. As far as I can tell, any ship with a crew that rated below 2 in SH4 wouldn't make it out of port without running aground. They are indeed clueless. I saved them for merchants :)

tater

[Peto]

Having worked with SH3 in the past, I will concur with previous assessments regarding AI crew levels.

Ducimus: You owe nobody an apology for not putting weenies on your escorts :up:

[tater]

I think the only difference with TM is that there are no elites save one. Anyone who has messed with the game doesn't put 0-1 crews on naval units, lol.

Ducimus, have you considered adding a super sensor to the game, giving it to ole BP (and JUST BP) and then allowing elites? Might make TM more alternate campaign friendly... just thinking out loud

[Ducimus]

To be honest - all things considered

-aircraft detection of players
- weaker subs (50% less hitpoints and less armor then stock)
- AI detection upped a bit - thermal layer coverage down a bit
- contemplation of AP DC's.....


I am genuinly afraid to put elites in. Partialy becaus they might be a little *too* good, but also in part from the massive complaints that would be heaped upon my plate.

I am a hair from killing links to TM 1.7 and redoing various graphical pissmeoffs and now narhwal refit buggery as it is. (minor venting there, sorry)

[Peto]

No apology nessecary.

[Ducimus]

You know, ive started toying with some AP DC's, and i swear, it seems like the Tin cans are missing by a wide mark, even with a depth accuracy of 5. I would not be surpised if somethings changed in the code. Ole bungo pete is not the accurate monster he once was, at least not this akikaze in singlemission, and hes at elite rating too.

[Peto]

Do you think that's a change that happened with patch 1.4 then? I've noticed that the patterns escorts drop "seem" to cover a little larger area than before...

[AVGWarhawk]

Do you think that's a change that happened with patch 1.4 then? I've noticed that the patterns escorts drop "seem" to cover a little larger area than before...


First time I used this mod the DD were on me and very accurate. Last nights DD on a different convoy were way off the mark. But, they did linger longer. Not only that, the convoy steamed out of sight and three DD returned to look for me. They finally steamed off.

[Ducimus]

This patch, i think has alot going in the back door so to speak. The developers i think did alot of code level changes to effect change, without ever touching a dat or sim file. The current status of ROW is a great example of this.

[Peto]

First time I used this mod the DD were on me and very accurate. Last nights DD on a different convoy were way off the mark. But, they did linger longer. Not only that, the convoy steamed out of sight and three DD returned to look for me. They finally steamed off.

That's been my experience to. I think there are so many factors involved (Escort Proficiency, Weather, Layers, etc) that we can't expect any single recurring theme. And I'm actually happy about that. I was afraid that this sonar tweak would create too many Uber escorts. That has not been my typical experience to date. On the other hand, when you do run into a situation where the above factors work against you, it takes much more work to gat away. In this sense, this mod is working better than I had hoped.

Coupled with what Ducimus said about "...alot going in the back door..." (I think he's spot on) and there is more of an unquantifiable X factor now in the game. Many aspects feel much more random than they did in previous versions.

EDIT: I wonder if they added a variable density to layers?

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, the mod is working well in the two experiences thus far. To put it in perspective. The first contact with elite DD was very tough and I was done for. I started a new career and found a convoy with numerous DD. The pucker factor started here. My first thought was if these were like the other DD in my first contact with this mod, my butt is toast.(you never know what you will get and that is a good thing) There were 5 total I believe. But, there were confused and not so hot. I did what I could to the convoy with my less than good torps. I found it cool that they all steamed off and about 10 minutes 3 DD steamed back to look for me. So, really, the DD are two fold. Keep you down with dropping DC or just hanging around the area keeping you down. The convoy slips away.


I wonder if they added a variable density to layers?

The layers can be moved around. Someone made a mod that would replicate were the layers should be during certain parts of the year(in real life). Anyway, currently the thermals seem to be at 150 feet all the time. This needs to be changed. I know if I scurry to 150 feet I will find my layer. Now, if it is modded to vary in depth then this now becomes another problem for the skipper....finding that thermal or maybe not finding it all, maybe the thermal is below your crush depth! Just another factor here that we can consider for making it realistic.

[Peto]

My experience with layers since patch 1.4 seem to be more inconsistent. It's not so much how deep they are (and I've had a couple instances where none were reported) but how strong they are. If the developers added a variable here it would be interesting. I wish we had a bathothermograph modelled as that would tell us the temperature variation.

I was testing sonar performance--basically doing nothing else--for many hours before 1.4. Now--after 1.4--I run the same tests and get more scattered and--it seems--more variable results.

Example: I used to get detected 90% of the time when I did X whle being hunted by escorts 2500 yards away. Now I can do X and only be detected ~75% of the time. It's rather coincidental that this change happened in the middle of my testing of sonar capabilities. If I hadn't been paying such close attention I may never have noticed that something changed.

Example 2: In a scenario I was just playing I was able to load torpedos under the layer (~150) within 2000 yards of an escort. Normally I wouldn't attempt that because they've always heard me. After I reloaded 1 torp, I went silent again and kept up from under the layer and was picked up in under 5 minutes. That is a change in Passive sonar and I haven't tweaked anything with passive sensors (yet).

Well, testing will tell but I think Ducimus is right. More changes happened during the 1.4 patch than meet the eye or made the 1.4 readme list.

But (yes I have one to) I can't be positive.

[Ducimus]

Their accuracy is such, that i find myself contemplating to run a test with stock DC's and their massive 40 meter max radius. Just to see how it plays out.

[AVGWarhawk]

Duci said they did a lot of changes with the patch when he first looked at it. Hopefully it is changes for the better!

[Ducimus]

Acutally with files concerning the AI, they only made one physical change- the light factor in the sim.cfg. Other then that they assigned the players watch crew onto a new visual node in a seperate dat file.

THats in the files that we work with, Who knows what the devs did in the file *they* work with.

[Peto]

Roger that AVG and Ducimus! Thank heavens I only have this one mod to consider. All the modders who have multiple tweaks and changes to deal with have my sympathy and--from past experience--my empathy!

btw--After quite a bit of testing over the last few days I've decided to create a version of this mod for RFB. It should be out this evening. Just doing one more test run. When I release it I'll post it in the RFB thread and put a link on the 1st page of this thread. I don't want to create confusion by starting a new one...

[Ducimus]

Im thinking outloud for a minute. On the idea of getting more equipment damage (with less hull damage)

What do you think would happen in the following two scenarios f you took a depth charge and:

A.)
- lowered the max damage of it to 2/3rds or 1/2 its existing damage.
- increased the max radius of it to say... stock dimension of 40 meters

then took the same DC and

b.)
- applied a AP value equivlant to the subs AP value or less.

[Peto]

Im thinking outloud for a minute. On the idea of getting more equipment damage (with less hull damage)

What do you think would happen in the following two scenarios f you took a depth charge and:

A.)
- lowered the max damage of it to 2/3rds or 1/2 its existing damage.
- increased the max radius of it to say... stock dimension of 40 meters

then took the same DC and

b.)
- applied a AP value equivlant to the subs AP value or less.

I won't guess :lol:. I'll leave this one for tater's insight!

[tater]

Not sure, but I'd also like to see a reality check on what exactly got damaged during DC attacks.

I reaad about the radar stuff falling off the wall, periscopes leaking, etc. I don;t see as much mention of other systems really fubared or destroyed.

From DTB:

How Zones and 3D objects interact

The scenario…
We have 2 zones that are 20m long x 10m high x 3m deep which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ‘hit’ from one side.

The armour value on Zone 1 is set to 50 so that no 4” shell, even at maximum HP will cause any damage.

The armour value on Zone 2 is set to 15 so that any hit from 4” shell, even a minimum HP will cause damage.

The blast radius for the 4” shell is set to Min 2m, Max 10m, the actual shell hit/s are HP 25 & Blast Radius of 10 metres.

The hits…
When the shell hits Zone 1 – The shell hits to Zone 1 result in no damage to Zone 1 or Zone 2 as the armour value had not been defeated.

When the shell hits Zone 2 – The shell hits to Zone 2 result in damage to Zone 2 as the armour has been defeated; BUT the armour only gets checked once and because Zone 2 is within the damage radius Zone 2 has now been damaged!

The same scenario occurs between the 3D object and the zone.

With the submarine’s armour value at 25, if a shell, in this case a 4” with an AP of 25 were to hit near by then in most instances this will result in damage being taken by the submarine and the nearby zone if the zone is less than 4 metres from the blast point.

RE: in most instances this will result in damage being taken; The reason I say this is because the AP value is dynamic but based upon the specified AP value.

The in game AP value is AP x PT + HPValue/ALF; The PT value is randomly generated and can be a + or – and from 0 up to the Zones.cfg specified value.

PT = Penetration Threshold=0.2 ; ALF = Armor Level Factor=4

The results of this mean that for the 4” AP shell with the AP value of 25 and a HP range of 10 to 25, then using the maximum PT values the armour that will be penetrated for each HP

HP ~ -2PT ~0PT ~+2PT
25 ~ 26.25 ~ 31.25 ~ 36.25
24 ~ 26.00 ~ 31.00 ~ 36.00
23 ~ 25.75 ~ 30.75 ~ 35.75
22 ~ 25.50 ~ 30.50 ~ 35.50
21 ~ 25.25 ~ 30.25 ~ 35.25
20 ~ 25.00 ~ 30.00 ~ 35.00
19 ~ 24.75 ~ 29.75 ~ 34.75
18 ~ 24.50 ~ 29.50 ~ 34.50
17 ~ 24.25 ~ 29.25 ~ 34.25
16 ~ 24.00 ~ 29.00 ~ 34.00
15 ~ 23.75 ~ 28.75 ~ 33.75
14 ~ 23.50 ~ 28.50 ~ 33.50
13 ~ 23.25 ~ 28.25 ~ 33.25
12 ~ 23.00 ~ 28.00 ~ 33.00
11 ~ 22.75 ~ 27.75 ~ 32.75
10 ~ 22.50 ~ 27.50 ~ 32.50

If we have the situation of a 3D object (armour value of 25) which has 2 Zones (armour level of 15) where Zone 1 is larger than the 3D object and Zone 2 is smaller than the 3D object then this is how, assuming that the blast radius is not large enough to reach the ‘other’ zone, that the damage would or would not occur.

If the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit Zone 1, then the zone and the 3D object would take damage. However if the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit the 3D object where Zone 2 is located then neither the 3D object or Zone 2 would be damaged.

[Peto]

Nothing like a little light reading ;).

Since you used guns as an example (probably works the same for DC's): I think any direct hit from a 4" gun or better should be a hull breach if the shell is AP. Doing that would require lessening the chance of a hit though IMO. That's all I got to say about that (for now).

I think I've figured out that the cfg file for thermal layers contains misleading information. I suspect that setting the 1.0 to 5.0 does not mean a max of 20% sonar effectiveness. I'm starting to think that each whole number "can" represent that loss of 20% (X% of 20% ?). ie--if it's set to 5.0, escorts could actually lose 100% sonar effectiveness. Maybe someone could confirm this or tell me I'm nuts?

Go ahead! I've heard it before :yep:!

[AVGWarhawk]

Bump!


Because I can:lol:

[Peto]

Bump!


Because I can:lol:

That's just your way of saying, "Get up and get to work!"

:yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

Bump!


Because I can:lol:
That's just your way of saying, "Get up and get to work!"

:yep:
Yes and no.....I want to have everyone take a good look at this mod because it looks like you and Tater are working together on this and other parts of the AI layout....DC, thermal layers, other sensors. Everyone should try this out. It is just a fun mod! I'm more of a cheerlead in this respect bolstering you on to success!

Besides, this can be loaded after every mod that is already enabled and it works just fine.

[Peto]

Yes and no.....I want to have everyone take a good look at this mod because it looks like you and Tater are working together on this and other parts of the AI layout....DC, thermal layers, other sensor. Everyone should try this out. It is just a fun mod!

No worries! It may take time to get it as right as I's like it to be but I'm determined. And you're right about tater's work--if he can get the DC's and damage models worked out I'll owe him a fine malt beverage--perhaps a Glenlivet in a subsim snifter :hmm:.

:up:

[Peto]

Version 1.1 now available at 1st post of this thread.

[claybirdd]

First off I just would like to say thank you for all of the hard work youve put in. I downloaded the first version when it came out and really wish i could give you some feed back, However on my first patrol I simply was never detected. But this is a good thing and puts a smile on my face. Just got through with downloading v1.1 and am about to begin 2nd patrol, hope i get some results. BTW i really like how you didnt tweek enemy AI before detection.

[Peto]

First off I just would like to say thank you for all of the hard work youve put in. I downloaded the first version when it came out and really wish i could give you some feed back, However on my first patrol I simply was never detected. But this is a good thing and puts a smile on my face. Just got through with downloading v1.1 and am about to begin 2nd patrol, hope i get some results. BTW i really like how you didnt tweek enemy AI before detection.

Happy Hunting! Any and ALL feedback will be appreciated. If you don't like it, tell me why. I need info even if it's bad news (actually--that's probably the most important info I can get).

1. Date:2. Escort(s) Class(es):3. Weather Conditions

Thanks claybirdd!!!!

[AVGWarhawk]

Claybird, the best thing here is Peto did not make all the AI super hunters. It is a mix of deadly mofo's and regular rookies. So you never now what you are up against until it is to late.


Peto, I'm have a death wish patrol. I'm commanding S-41. If a killer subchaser gets a hold of me.....things will get ugly very fast! Keep up the good work. My S class crew is puckered already. :o

[ReallyDedPoet]

Just saw the new version is posted, nice :yep:, getting it now :up:


RDP

[Peto]

Just finished my personal record. Old S-Class (S-39), 1 Task Force attacked and no damage. Started out evasion with 4 escorts on me, eventually 3 left leaving 1 persistent pest behind. Took the S-39 to the Crushing depth of 250 feet :o and jigged like John Travolta. Finally got away.

just over 6 hours. Thank devs for the pause game feature :yep: !!!

[AVGWarhawk]

I wish I could say the same. I was spanked like a new born baby:oops:

[Peto]

I wish I could say the same. I was spanked like a new born baby:oops:

Well--I added some special code that make the escorts particularily difficult only on your computer ;).

S-Class is a lot more scary with this mod I'll admit. Still haven't been sunk...yet. Those 2000+ yard shots begin to be more appealing if it means the escort has to travel 3000+ to reach me. Gives me time to set up--point my stern at him. That can save your butt.

Edit for Hints: In the course of testing this mod, I've discovered that I needed to change my tactics a little. With the sound mods included, it is much easier to hear approaching escorts. the "bad" side of this was I originally found myself going to flank and evading too early. This gave the escorts (especially the little guys) time to catch me on passive and compensate. They were more deadly than ever.

Now with "fast turners" I let them almost pass over me before I will accelerate. Beginning a turn as soon as you get in their blind zone also helps--they don't seem to pick up on that. The combination of already turning off the course you were on and speeding up pretty much at the point where they drop charges, works pretty well. It often leaves you close enough to receive some serious tooth-shakers though. When setting up your evasion, think about the K-guns 1st. They get me more often than the rack charges.

As for Destroyers, the same principle works but they have a tougher time reacting to your evasion (they turn slower). It allows a little more "slop" room to work with. They're also really boogying when they come in and often don't seem to hear with passive at all during the run. Unless they do that annoying 30 knot drift which the game seems to think makes them able to hear.

[Laffertytig]

was on patrol of S japan july 42 when i came across a juicy convoy of 3 large troop transports and 1 dd. fired 2 at each and they all missed (need a lot more tdc practise). then the counter attack came which only lasted 2 hours but i guess the dd had to get back to the convoy.

it dropped about 10 paterns before i managed to escape. i then heard it drop paterns further away tryin to guess were i was. after lost contact i came to periscope depth and would u believe it there it was at all stop listenin for me to start movin!

overall a great experience which felt just about right for bein so early in the war

[claybirdd]

I love this mod, It adds just the right touch when coupled T.M.(IMHO):know: Spotted a couple of destroyers and a subchaser offthe coast of Balikipan on second patroll. After one dead destroyer and two and a half hours later (no TC), my patience wore thin. within seconds of my periscope being raised I was taking fire from the other Asashio. Immediatly I crash dived and soon was finished off by an underwater blitz of well aimed DC.:dead: Thank you for this mod. I hope others give it a try, Im finnaly pissed at my game and its not because of a bug or screwed up scene.dat file.:D :rock:

[Peto]

Thanks for the feedback Gentleskippers! Very glad you're enjoying it!!!

:up:

[jean74]

Hi Peto,

I use too your mod and I think that he make SH4 IA better than SH3 (for me). :up:

I love it.

Best regards,


Jean

[Peto]

Hi Peto,

I use too your mod and I think that he make SH4 IA better than SH3 (for me). :up:

I love it.

Best regards,


Jean

Thank You Jean74! Thanks quite a compliment :up:!!!

The difficult thing about sonar and SH3 is there are so many variants. Early war (123/128 active sonar models) are pretty much the same as the Type 93 that the Japanese use in SH4. But then you start getting into the Q types and 144/147 Sword--those worked very differently than conventional sonar.

Type 147 for instance, had to be aimed by the sonar operator. It was much shorter ranged as well. Allied escorts with Type 147 typically had another active system installed as well--a game limitation that poses a challenge. I'm currently looking ahead and think I've figured out a way to model those challenges accurately. We'll see when the expansion pack hits the shelves ;).

Thank You Again!!!

Peto

[Lopo]

Hey, Peto...
First, I really like very much your mod... I went to bottom twice and I'm learning by the hard way how to run away but it's very fun.
So, I was used to find in my way skippers very talented ... and in my new career, during december 41, I sank three fat Marus after firing 12 torpedoes under the nose of a DD that just looking for me anywhere... she never charge me!

Here's my question (perhaps someone has already answered somewhere in the thread): is it possible to find such newbie Japanese skipper?

Thanks for this superb mod!

Lopo

[Peto]

is it possible to find such newbie Japanese skipper?

Lopo

Thanks for your input Lopo!!!

As for your question: No. I never know what I'm running into when I'm playing in carreer mode. And my experiences have been varied, Escorts that don't react as well as I think they should (and I escape easily) to escorts that jump on me ferociously. Those are the guys that make me cautious :yep: all the time!!!

So--results are still unpredictable except for when you stir up a bees nest. That's when we all (myself included) get to test our evasion skills and practice our patience.

Cheers!!!

[Slang]

Hey Peto,

This mod looks super cool, I'm downloading and going to install right now.

I see that you really want feedback, and i'm perfectly willing to give detailed and extensive feedback once I have some time with the mod.

However, I'm still running the 1.3 patch. I find it annoying to have to constantly restart campaigns, so I'm just gonna run with this one for awhile before patching.

My question is will any feedback I give you be useless if i'm not running the 1.4 patch?

Anyway, one more day of work then its 1 1/2 weeks off with plenty of time for SH4.

Slang

[Peto]

Hey Peto,

This mod looks super cool, I'm downloading and going to install right now.

I see that you really want feedback, and i'm perfectly willing to give detailed and extensive feedback once I have some time with the mod.

However, I'm still running the 1.3 patch. I find it annoying to have to constantly restart campaigns, so I'm just gonna run with this one for awhile before patching.

My question is will any feedback I give you be useless if i'm not running the 1.4 patch?

Anyway, one more day of work then its 1 1/2 weeks off with plenty of time for SH4.

Slang

I'd appreciate the report Slang :up:. I've run it long enough to know that the mod is more variable than I first feared, it isn't always nasty. And that's a good thing :yep:!!! Srill, the more info I get means I can fine tune it a bit if that's what people are looking for.

It will work as well with 1.3 or 1.4--in fact--it doesn't matter which version you're running for this mod. The effect is the same.

Happy Hunting (and evading :shifty:)!

[AVGWarhawk]

Damn subchasers. I had one last night that stopped and waited over 1/2 hour. Did not move and engine off. Sneaky little somebody's.

[Peto]

Subchasers and Minesweepers Oh My! I'll take on a destroyer any day of the week over those guys!

I was testing a scripted layer of a campaign I'm working on last night and had something new happen. The mission was interdicting the Lingayen Gulf Invasion Force--Dec 21 of 41. So far there are about 60 ships involved in 5 groups. Normally (lately) I don't attack--just test different aspects of campaign function and layers--but when I saw these guys coming I couldn't resist. Snuck through a double layered escort screen and into the main body of transports and cargos. Fired all 4 tubes from my trusty S-41 and was rewarded with 1 hit for 1 dud :nope:. And then a serious pounding after they found me.

About 2 hours later.... I had worked free of a SC and Minesweeper. About that time, a smaller auxillery group of the Invasion Force headed into the Gulf. And they were pinging from wayyyyyy out there. Apparently, they were alerted/knew I was somewhere in the area, and went active sonar when they got close to the area of action. Long story short--Picked up agin by 2 escorts 2.5 HOURS AFTER I'd last been contacted!

A little side-effect of scripting multi-layered Convoy/TForces I'd never had happen before... I plan to play with the idea more and try to incorporate it into more aspects as I go forward with my wip campaign "Hunters & Hunted". Well over 150 hours into it so far. Almost done with the campaign through 43. 44 is going to be interesting, especially after June.

Cheers!

[AVGWarhawk]

Sounds interesting Peto. :hmm: The SC was very diligent and close a few times but I confused them by staying inside the convoy. I found a open window and slipped out. Went to periscope depth for a look as sonar was quiet. The SC was just bobbing there waiting. He finally moved on.

[Slang]

Well guys,

I didn't get nearly as much time this vacation, for SH4, as I thought i would. The majority of the time I did get to play was spent cruising around an empty ocean, and picking off 2 lone merchants.

But finally, just now I came across a small convoy. Hurahh! Time to test the new mod.

February 15 1942
19:30
Porpoise Class

3 merchant convoy, escorted by 3 destroyers. I was forced to take a long range shot. 3 torps launched at 4000 yards. 2 hits and 1 miss.

They failed to detect me after the shot. I surfaced to draw attention, then went back down. 2 escorts started coming after me pinging from a long way out. Anyway long story short I had to surface twice more to draw attention and try to get them to drop on me.

I'm thinking maybe I've run into some of the Rookie AI. They did seem to search for me for a long time before giving up, but never really got too close.

So, more testing is needed on my part here. I think I'll make up a quick mission in the editor with an Elite destroyer just to make sure the mod is working properly.

Active Mods:
NSM
ROW Sound effects
ROW New Seafoam
SI Hud Kit
SI Optics Kit
SI Periscope & TBT
SI Recog Manual
SI Interior Kit
Imperial Nomograph
RSRDC
Prolonged DC Attack

[Peto]

Thanks for the info! And it sure does soumd like you were up against rookies although I've seen strange AI behavior before and after making this mod... The long range pinging is now normal but being picked up at over 1800 yards remains fairly rare (kiind of what I was shooting for).

If you want to make a single test mission: I did most of my early testing against 1 Elite Subchaser in clear weather (0 wind). I used a gato Class and didn't allow myself to go deeper than 400 feet. I almost always got away (got sunk twice) but it took some effort at times.

Thanks Again!!!

[AkbarGulag]

A bit late but got this installed. I see what you mean about lowering your sub profile... that sonar is a real threat now. Finding I need an escape plan as i'm going in for Convoy attack rather than just drop to 60 metres and wait for the carnage to pass over. Have spent up to 2 hours real time in evasion so far... loving it.

Nice MOD Peto, thanks mate.

Read above about sound problems. Do I install this MOD then ROW to avoid this?

[Xantrokoles]

Thats exactly what i want :p

If u know the german movie ,,Das Boot'' ( now also in english avaible) . this mod is a must-have

[claybirdd]

does anyone still have a copy of this on their HD? It appears to have been removed from filefront(no suprise really). Anyhow, just trying to improve my TMO experience and ran across this in the archives.

[Skyclad]

I also would like to try this mod. Can anyone please tell me where to find it?

[Urge]

I believe it's been incorporated into RFB.

Urge

[Gambit]

Bump...does anyone have a copy of this mod to share? I'm running SH4 w/o the supermods but would like some challenge from the AI...

[Bubblehead1980]

This sounds very interesting Peto as I often find most DD's even in TMO now rather easy using my evasion tactics, which are RL tactics I read about in the book Silent Running by Admiral James Calvert.

Questions:

Work with TMO and RSRD?

What install order
?

TMO, RSRD, then this one?

Look forward to trying this out.Of course a five hour depth charging in RT, wow thatll be something lol.

[Armistead]

Yea, be nice to try with TMO 1.9 and RSRD,,,someone put up a link. Wonder what it would be like to run into 8 Type AB's in 100ft of water in formosa, can't get much worse.

[Bubblehead1980]

Peto? did you see my questions below?

[AVGWarhawk]

I have not seen Peto for a while. He was looking after his elderly father who served in these WW2 boats. Not sure what has become of Peto or his father at the moment.

[Gambit]

Looks like nobody has a copy of this mod?

[clayp]

Thats too bad,sounds neat.....:wah: