instant death now you can see what happens

[WernerSobe]

Do you remember how everyone was trying to find a reason for instant death of the sub for no reason when trying to dive?

Now you can see how it happens. Try to set depth to maximum, go to damage controll screen and watch the hull % number. As soon you reach a certain depth the number instantly changes from 0% to 100% and you die. There is no gradual hull damage like in sh3. When you get below certain crush depth your hull is instantly destroyed you have no chance to see it coming.

This is not a big problem when you know your crush depth. But it changes when you take some damage to the hull. So the reason for the sudden loss of the sub is that if you have taken damage and your crush depth is less then before, there will be no indication that youre aproaching it. No cracking, no bursting pipes. These effects start when you reach the crush depth but thats of course to late.

I assume there is a bug.

[DeepIron]

Yow! Great find WS!

There really should be a more gradual increase in the hull integrity numbers factoring in the amount of hull damaged sustained...

Historically, a number of US subs survived diving below crush depth by dint of emergancy blowing of the ballast tanks and God's Grace...

Is this modable or hard-coded?

[simonb1612]

I would have though that in RL there woulod have been some signs of iminent danger from seals and valves failing before the main hull failed.....

[AVGWarhawk]

Funny, last night I had taken damage. I decided to check out the damage % screen. It showed 15%. I though, ok, cool I keep sailing. Later on, I was kept down by some DD. I went to the the red line on the depth meter. I forget the depth. After about 5 minutes at the deepest the boat was able to go, per the red line, I start hearing the usual, this is damaged that is damaged blah blah. I briefly see water start leaking and then the instant death screen.

I'm guessing that if the hull has some damage....best to watch how deep you go. Keep an eye on that meter gauge. If she is climbing...you be too deep:o

[AVGWarhawk]

I would have though that in RL there woulod have been some signs of iminent danger from seals and valves failing before the main hull failed.....

Normally, yes but in the game it is like a domino effect. Everything just starts dropping. In about 2 seconds your dead.

[Ducimus]

Yeah i noticed that the other day. The crash speed variable in the zon file slows down the time it takes to crush your sub, just as it always has, but there is no slow bleed of hps from the hull. It's as if the game is making an abitary decision, "Go below crush depth for X amount of time, you die".


edit:

Your crush depth btw, is effected by your hull integerty. The more damage you have, the shallower your crush depth becomes.

[AVGWarhawk]

Your crush depth btw, is effected by your hull integerty. The more damage you have, the shallower your crush depth becomes.


That is logical. Then logic would dictate that you should be able to watch the hull % gauge slowly go up but apparently it does not.

[tater]

Wow, this is very different from what I understood. I thought that at a certain depth, the hull started taking HP damage.

tater

[AVGWarhawk]

It does not seem so Tater. Once the damage starts it takes off like a rocket and there is no saving the crew:down: Then again, perhaps we watch to much Hollywood. Maybe the chain-reaction is that fast at great depths. Those who know usually do not make it back.

[tater]

Makes sense for undamaged boats since the depth would be great. It's more odd for shallow depths due to damage. Seems like you'd be more likely then to see it happen slowly.

Course subs went down pretty quickly from having the induction open, and that would have been the second they were not on the surface.

[DeepIron]

Maybe the chain-reaction is that fast at great depths.
There were some mathmatical models run on the demise of the Scorpion (post WWII nuke sub that is) that concluded her bow section telescoped into the main central section within seconds.

However, if memory serves, the telescope event happened at a much deeper depth than her crush depth...

I can't see a WWII sub, especially a Gato or Balao class, imploding within seconds at the rated crush depth. Remember, the crush depth was where the sub would first start to show signs of structural stress, not complete failure...

[mrbeast]

It does not seem so Tater. Once the damage starts it takes off like a rocket and there is no saving the crew:down: Then again, perhaps we watch to much Hollywood. Maybe the chain-reaction is that fast at great depths. Those who know usually do not make it back.

I always understood that when a pressure hull fails at great depth it does so catastrophically. I saw a docu about the USS Thresher once (for those who are not familiar, the Thresher was a US SSN in the 60's that was lost due to pressure hull failure at great depth) and it suggested that the hull imploded almost instantaniously under the pressure.

Infact it also said that the crew was actually incinerated before they were crushed because the compression of the Oxygen in the boat, happened so quickly, it would cause it to spontainiously combust.

I don't know if this would apply to a WWII vintage sub, could it stand the depths that an SSN could before it was crushed?

[AVGWarhawk]

Very true DI. I also believe most of the crush depths were conservative estimates. Based on models is one thing and actually doing it can produce different outcomes. Models base the structrual integrity as constant were the real vessel might have structrual deficiency do to poor workmenship, etc. But I agree that the vessel should slowly lose intergrity and not crush like a beer can on a frat brothers head in under 2 seconds.

[AVGWarhawk]

It does not seem so Tater. Once the damage starts it takes off like a rocket and there is no saving the crew:down: Then again, perhaps we watch to much Hollywood. Maybe the chain-reaction is that fast at great depths. Those who know usually do not make it back.
I always understood that when a pressure hull fails at great depth it does so catastrophically. I saw a docu about the USS Thresher once (for those who are not familiar, the Thresher was a US SSN in the 60's that was lost due to pressure hull failure at great depth) and it suggested that the hull imploded almost instantaniously under the pressure.

Infact it also said that the crew was actually incinerated before they were crushed because the compression of the Oxygen in the boat, happened so quickly, it would cause it to spontainiously combust.

I don't know if this would apply to a WWII vintage sub, could it stand the depths that an SSN could before it was crushed?

Yes, I have read this also MB. When I read over the submarine books and look at this game, the devs employed alot of RL into the game. Perhaps this is one of them. Again, are we just Hollywood hopefuls or do they implode that fast? I'm guessing they implode that fast.

[Ducimus]

Wow, this is very different from what I understood. I thought that at a certain depth, the hull started taking HP damage.

tater

It used to. Now, its an arbitary decision.

"Hello there, oh you've been below this depth for X amount of time? I'm sorry, your game is now over".

[DeepIron]

I also believe most of the crush depths were conservative estimates. Also true. A number of patrol reports indicated that subs exceeded their rated crush depths, some by a factor or more than 30% and survived intact, usually with some hull pass-through seals blown out and the crews skivvies fully evacuated...

I don't know if this would apply to a WWII vintage sub, could it stand the depths that an SSN could before it was crushed? I don't think so MB. The pressure hull structure between the WWII and post-WWII nukes was changed radically. One thing you'll see in a nuke is the more unified cylindrical cross-section of the hull. The nukes also used more extensive welding techniques in their hull construction, though this also became more of the practice in the Gato and Balao class diesel boats as well. Another reason why they were more resistant to crushing at deeper depths.

[THE_MASK]

Do you remember how everyone was trying to find a reason for instant death of the sub for no reason when trying to dive?

Now you can see how it happens. Try to set depth to maximum, go to damage controll screen and watch the hull % number. As soon you reach a certain depth the number instantly changes from 0% to 100% and you die. There is no gradual hull damage like in sh3. When you get below certain crush depth your hull is instantly destroyed you have no chance to see it coming.

This is not a big problem when you know your crush depth. But it changes when you take some damage to the hull. So the reason for the sudden loss of the sub is that if you have taken damage and your crush depth is less then before, there will be no indication that youre aproaching it. No cracking, no bursting pipes. These effects start when you reach the crush depth but thats of course to late.

I assume there is a bug.
Same with a hurt deck crew as far as i can work out . If your crew are hurt they will usually show 99% health . Dive and watch there health meter . Crap to say the least .

[AVGWarhawk]

I also believe most of the crush depths were conservative estimates. Also true. A number of patrol reports indicated that subs exceeded their rated crush depths, some by a factor or more than 30% and survived intact, usually with some hull pass-through seals blown out and the crews skivvies fully evacuated...

I don't know if this would apply to a WWII vintage sub, could it stand the depths that an SSN could before it was crushed? I don't think so MB. The pressure hull structure between the WWII and post-WWII nukes was changed radically. One thing you'll see in a nuke is the more unified cylindrical cross-section of the hull. The nukes also used more extensive welding techniques in their hull construction, though this also became more of the practice in the Gato and Balao class diesel boats as well. Another reason why they were more resistant to crushing at deeper depths.

Yes, todays sub are like a pirates telescope that collapses after use. The Scorpion collapsed this way. The hulls are concentric rings were as the WW2 design was not a concentric ring cylinder that can collapse like a telescope under high pressure.

[WernerSobe]

wait a moment guys dont misunderstand me.

You must differ the rated crash depth and the true crash depth.

The rated one is constant and never change (obviously). Its indicated with the red needle. And then there is true crash depth is were the hull collapse. The true crash depth is deeper then the rated one. You can dive below red needle with no consequences until you reach the true crash depth which is variable and which you never know.

When you take damage your true crash depth dramaticly decreases. It can even be just about periscope depth. When you reach it, you have no chance to react you just die.

When we talk about reality you would "feel" when your boat cannot take any more. It will first start making strange noises, pipes will break and some system may failure before the hull collapses. The hull failure will be fast however.

But the problem is. In sh4 there is no indication at all that your sub is reaching true crush depth. Your hull just goes 100% -> 0% instantly and you die.

[DeepIron]

But the problem is. In sh4 there is no indication at all that your sub is reaching true crush depth. Your hull just goes 100% -> 0% instantly and you die. So, the question in my mind is... Is this something that:

A. We live with.
B. Can it be modded to reflect a more "real world" physics model?
C. Submit to the devs as a "bug" and wait for the next patch?

[WernerSobe]

i cant say for sure but i think it is modable. At least there are values such as crush depth and crush speed that can be changed. If it is possible then its in zones.cfg and sub.zon files.

[Peto]

Wow, this is very different from what I understood. I thought that at a certain depth, the hull started taking HP damage.

tater

It used to. Now, its an arbitary decision.

"Hello there, oh you've been below this depth for X amount of time? I'm sorry, your game is now over".

I wonder if there is a Randomly generated number here? If so--I'm a fan of it. A flooded compartment on a sub means a sunk sub--almost without exception. Should we all take our Gatos down 10 feet at a time and compare notes as to what depth we achieved Catostrophic Failure? I hate doing stuff like that btw. It just seems wrong but it would be nice to know if crush depth is truly random... :hmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

A. We live with.
We have too live with it. See next answers.

B. Can it be modded to reflect a more "real world" physics model?
I believe it is hard coded.

C. Submit to the devs as a "bug" and wait for the next patch?
Not holding my breath to see a patch anytime soon.....maybe after addon is completed and that will fix the add on bugs.

[Rockin Robbins]

As usual I have a good news/bad news post. And I'll say nothing at all, just present the evidence from ussubvetsofworldwarii.org:

REMEMBER THIS USS DRAGONET?
On Dec.15, 1944 the Dragonet (Lewis), patrolling off the coast of Matsuwat ran aground while submerged. This mishap caused the FTR to flood, giving Dragonet a perilous down angle. The men in the forward torpedo room escaped aft and secured the watertight door. Salvage air blew the water out of the compartment and Dragonet was able to surface the only submarine during the war to completely flood her forward torpedo room and survive.:huh:

[Peto]

A. We live with.
We have too live with it. See next answers.

B. Can it be modded to reflect a more "real world" physics model?
I believe it is hard coded.

C. Submit to the devs as a "bug" and wait for the next patch?
Not holding my breath to see a patch anytime soon.....maybe after addon is completed and that will fix the add on bugs.

Actually--I wouldn't call this behavior "unrealistic" (not saying you are AVG). Pressure hull failure would certainly be fatal submerged at any depth and the 1st indication would be a flooded compartment. It would just be nice if the game gave me time to seal the compartment I was in so I could ride it down til I too, was crushed like a bug ;).

[Hitman]

As I understand it, in WW2 submarines going to excessive depth would cause not the pressure hull to collapse inmediately, but instead all valves and fittings where cables, tubes and such exit the pressure hull (Periscopes, torpedo tubes, etc) to leak severely or even blow away. They are far less resistant than the pressure hull, and the increased amount of weight due to the water they let in would prevent the boat from surfacing again, even if blowing all tanks. But since the holes through which those parts go out of the pressure hull are actually not very big, I would say that the flooding would be fast but not nearly instant.

Thus, you should lose depth control and head down long before the pressure hulls collapses. And when that collapse happens yes, it will be nearly instant.

My conclussion:

The good part: Yes, a pressure hull collapse is fatal and instant, that is correctly modelled :up:

The bad part: For a pressure hull to collapse you should have first lost depth control and be heading to the sea bottom with huge leakings, probably many flooded compartments. And that is not instant, and very different from what happens in the game :down:

So we don't have that completely accurate, but then again death is death no matter if instant or not, so I prefer to think that the game instant death happens when I would have lost depth control and the sim spares me the longer part of seeing my sub head down until the -correct- instant collapse happens.

[DeepIron]

It would just be nice if the game gave me time to seal the compartment...

Or, as RR has evidenced in his post on the USS Dragonet, give the player at least a shot to "blow emergancy" or "back all full"... This would give the player a "pseudo-random" chance at cheating death and saving his/her sub and/or career.

[AVGWarhawk]

@Peto,

I believe the reaction in the game is realistic. I also believe we have seen to much Hollywood on this matter. You know, sweaty crew at 1000 feet fixing a boat. Going below 450 feet in these subs is not a good thing and implosion in second can happen. It just that some of the players would like a slower death or game play in some instances were you can save the boat. But, you get these really, go down in shallow water or minor damage that takes a few hours to repair. I know because I have done these in game. But, we must realize that in just some instances your as good as sunk in seconds. Even so, the camera swings away and the screen goes dark. I think it good at this point. I do not want to ride it down as it were. I have a new career to start!

[Ducimus]

I can live with it.

I can slow it down.

I can't deal with another patch. If there is, i swear i will remove this site from my bookmarks, and run away from the computer screaming like a lunatic.

[Hartmann]

Interesting

I would like see the submarine going to the bottom with the hull colapsing and have a option for quit after you are death.

The ideal thing could be show the death screen when all the crew was death , perhaps counting the water inside of every compartment and killing all the people inside when it was at 100 % of flooding.

But with sh4 it will be not possible now.

[mrbeast]

Interesting

I would like see the submarine going to the bottom with the hull colapsing and have a option for quit after you are death.

The ideal thing could be show the death screen when all the crew was death , perhaps counting the water inside of every compartment and killing all the people inside when it was at 100 % of flooding.

But with sh4 it will be not possible now.

Sounds a bit gruesome to me Hartman, the mystery of what happens to people when they get incinerated, crushed and drowned all at the same time is one I wish to solve either way:nope: :lol:

[Chock]

I seem to recall reading that the likely circumstance when a sub's hull gives way, is that it happens so fast and compresses the air so quickly that it spontaneously combusts. If that is true, then I can live with the instant implosion being in the sim, but I have to agree that before a hull actually did that, I imagine it would start creaking and popping a few seals, such as where the periscope and shaft packing were.

:D Chock

[Peto]

Well then :shifty: . I'll just sum it up ;) .

Everybody gots to die sometime.

:lol:

[Hartmann]

i said this because in a lot of other games and simulators you can see what happens after you are death.

For example IL-sturmovik, you can crash to the ground or jump but you can continue looking air combats or how the enemy planes fly to base or to their targets, or in Sub command, another submarine game.:yep:

[mrbeast]

i said this because in a lot of other games and simulators you can see what happens after you are death.

For example IL-sturmovik, you can crash to the ground or jump but you can continue looking air combats or how the enemy planes fly to base or to their targets, or in Sub command, another submarine game.:yep:

Oh right:doh: see what you mean now!LOL:lol: yeah that would be quite good:up:

[WernerSobe]

anyway. I think there should be something that tells you that youre close to crush depth before you crush. All i want is a chance to react.

[Ducimus]

There is something that tells you. Lights going out, steam pipes and such. Most noticable in the conning tower, and, as of last patch, in teh control room as well.

What i have observed is you will see pressure effects in the CT first. After a time period, you will then start to see them in the CR. Shortly after that, its crunch city.

[TriskettheKid]

I have a feeling this isn't moddable.

For kicks, I went in and changed the .cfg files for a few submarines and increased the crush depth substantially. The Balao crush depth, for example, I changed to 400 meters (it was listed as meters in the .cfg file, so if it's yards, I'll mess with it some more). As a result, the red needle on the dial was buried.

The sub STILL crushed just under 400 FEET.


It was undamaged, and I had just started a patrol from outside a harbor. It was, literally, the first thing I did when the patrol started.

[WernerSobe]

There is something that tells you. Lights going out, steam pipes and such. Most noticable in the conning tower, and, as of last patch, in teh control room as well.

What i have observed is you will see pressure effects in the CT first. After a time period, you will then start to see them in the CR. Shortly after that, its crunch city.

Yes but these effects start when you reach the true crush depth. thats to late you cannot save the boat at this moment anymore. When you see lights going out your hull is already at 0% and a second later you see the game over screen.

[mrbeast]

I have a feeling this isn't moddable.

For kicks, I went in and changed the .cfg files for a few submarines and increased the crush depth substantially. The Balao crush depth, for example, I changed to 400 meters (it was listed as meters in the .cfg file, so if it's yards, I'll mess with it some more). As a result, the red needle on the dial was buried.

The sub STILL crushed just under 400 FEET.


It was undamaged, and I had just started a patrol from outside a harbor. It was, literally, the first thing I did when the patrol started.

Hmmm I wonder if the devs are goin to fix any of this stuff in the add on? :hmm:

[Ducimus]

Yes but these effects start when you reach the true crush depth. thats to late you cannot save the boat at this moment anymore. When you see lights going out your hull is already at 0% and a second later you see the game over screen.

Thats not what ive seen. Ive been down at crush depth with the lights flickering a good 15 minutes before the hull went from 0 damage to 100. So im disagreeing.

I will agree however, if the crunch still occurs if you move out of the crush area after 5 minutes of those 15 that i observed.

[TriskettheKid]

After doing some more fiddling on different boats, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that this is a possible hard-coded issue.

Taking the Balao, again, I tried doing another few dives past the vanilla crush depth.

As with previously, all were done at the immediate start of a patrol, in a boat with no damage at all. I changed the .cfg file for crush depth to 400 meters.

I was unable to survive a dive that went past 400ft. Every time. One time, I was not insta-killed, even at 450ft. The problem was that it was impossible to survive. I did not survive, despite breaching the surface after blowing ballast.

Unless there is another way to change the crush depth that I'm unaware of, I have not been able to dive to a historically accurate depth and survive, even after changing the .cfg files.

[Ducimus]

>>The problem was that it was impossible to survive. I did not survive, despite breaching the surface after blowing ballast.

Did you blow tanks before, or after the hull went to 100% damaged?

My contention with the insta crunch is this:
Lets say you can spend 15 minutes below your acutal crush depth before your hull goes to 100% damaged.

If i spend 5 minutes of that 15 below crush, and blow tanks and surface, my hull should still be at 0%, and i should survive. Now after doing this, and on the surface at 0% damage, and the crunch occurs 8 to 10 minutes later anyway, THEN, id beleive there is a real problem.

Is this the case?


EDIT:
>>Unless there is another way to change the crush depth that I'm unaware of,

CFG file has nothing to do with the subs acutal performance, the crush depth, is in the zon file. You could make it go as deep as the game will render it underwater if you wanted to.

[TriskettheKid]

>>The problem was that it was impossible to survive. I did not survive, despite breaching the surface after blowing ballast.

Did you blow tanks before, or after the hull went to 100% damaged?

My contention with the insta crunch is this:
Lets say you can spend 15 minutes below your acutal crush depth before your hull goes to 100% damaged.

If i spend 5 minutes of that 15 below crush, and blow tanks and surface, my hull should still be at 0%, and i should survive. Now after doing this, and on the surface at 0% damage, and the crunch occurs 8 to 10 minutes later anyway, THEN, id beleive there is a real problem.

Is this the case?


EDIT:
>>Unless there is another way to change the crush depth that I'm unaware of,

CFG file has nothing to do with the subs acutal performance, the crush depth, is in the zon file. You could make it go as deep as the game will render it underwater if you wanted to.

For the first question, yes I blew tanks before I even had hull damage. The screen of death started up around 50ft from the surface, and contined even after I surfaced. Then I died.

As for the second point, that could be why I was completely unable to go deep. It explains the red needle, but that's it. Time to muddle around with the .zon file, then.

I'll post about the experiences later.

[AVGWarhawk]

As stated earlier my my post....I believe it is hard coded. I'm also believing not bad really. At 450 feet with a hull breach....you are pretty much cooked. So, instead of a long agony of going down, getting your hopes up that you can save the boat and hugging you buds goodbye, the devs shortened out the death screen.

One thing is for sure. If you are damaged you better tip toe around the DD and the DC they be dropping:o

[THE_MASK]

It forces you not to get into unrealistic situations in the first place .

[TriskettheKid]

It forces you not to get into unrealistic situations in the first place .

I don't see anything unrealistic with, say, trying to dive to 600ft in a Balao to try and escape a DC run. I've seen quite a few stories on here about subs that did that at times.

I'm not asking to be able to dive to 1500 feet or anything like that, I just want to be able to dive to a reasonable depth without getting killed.

There is no reason that a Balao should have trouble diving around 500-600 feet, so long as it's not damaged, I would think.

And AVG may be right, but I'm having trouble finding the Hex edit topic that I saw at one point. I'm thinking I need a program to read the .zon files.

[Ducimus]

Haven't spent much time on the mod forums or with mods im guessing.

[-Pv-]

"...I changed to 400 meters (it was listed as meters in the .cfg file, so if it's yards, I'll mess with it some more). As a result, the red needle on the dial was buried.

The sub STILL crushed just under 400 FEET..."

I suspect it's because all you changed was the indicator on the gauge.

If a moddable crush exists, maybe not identified yet.

Anyway, I'm satisfied the depth at which actual crush damage occurs is probably as realistic as it's going to get. Like others have said, we only have evidence from the survivors. What's debatable is how much warning and time do you get? Creaks, groans, needle dropping fast , water bursting in Conning Tower... a few more seconds... water bursting in the Control Room... a few more seconds... darkness. Are we putting too fine a point on this? If you are deep enough with catastophic damage that put you there, you made a mistake. You lost to the enemy. That is the situation that really needs to be corrected. Not so much the game.

So you keep losing at Chess. Change the rules. I should get just one more pawn, then I won't lose so often. Since we now have a pretty good idea what the rules are in this game, we should be working to play within those rules and win. I realize there is a certain amount of drama in eeking out a few more seconds of survival and coming back in here with the grand story of how we should have died, but survived by the skin. Well, those stories are still possible within the confines of the current state of the game. I've had several prolonged struggles with trying to rescue a drowning sub (some I've won and some I've lost) so I know there is still some drama coded into the game. Even a few unknowns so it doesn't turn into a movie we watched hundreds of times.

Frankly, The more I learn about this game the more impressed I am at the depth of play coded into it (considering the limited scope of the focus in a very long and complicated war.) It makes the dumb mistakes which gives rise to the patches that much more striking. I can live with it as it is now. I work hard to preservie my sub and my crew. I'm rewarded with a machine that requires little maintenance and fights hard when I need it to.
-Pv-

[AVGWarhawk]

It forces you not to get into unrealistic situations in the first place .

I'll buy that logic.

[TriskettheKid]

Well, I've done some searching, but the closest I've found is a kinda homebrew program that requires .NET 2 in order to get the program.

But I KNOW I saw a topic about editing Hex and I can't find it now. Weird.

[AVGWarhawk]

Haven't spent much time on the mod forums or with mods im guessing.


Something smells fishy here;)

[TriskettheKid]

"...I changed to 400 meters (it was listed as meters in the .cfg file, so if it's yards, I'll mess with it some more). As a result, the red needle on the dial was buried.

The sub STILL crushed just under 400 FEET..."

I suspect it's because all you changed was the indicator on the gauge.

If a moddable crush exists, maybe not identified yet.

Anyway, I'm satisfied the depth at which actual crush damage occurs is probably as realistic as it's going to get. Like others have said, we only have evidence from the survivors. What's debatable is how much warning and time do you get? Creaks, groans, needle dropping fast , water bursting in Conning Tower... a few more seconds... water bursting in the Control Room... a few more seconds... darkness. Are we putting too fine a point on this? If you are deep enough with catastophic damage that put you there, you made a mistake. You lost to the enemy. That is the situation that really needs to be corrected. Not so much the game.

So you keep losing at Chess. Change the rules. I should get just one more pawn, then I won't lose so often. Since we now have a pretty good idea what the rules are in this game, we should be working to play within those rules and win. I realize there is a certain amount of drama in eeking out a few more seconds of survival and coming back in here with the grand story of how we should have died, but survived by the skin. Well, those stories are still possible within the confines of the current state of the game. I've had several prolonged struggles with trying to rescue a drowning sub (some I've won and some I've lost) so I know there is still some drama coded into the game. Even a few unknowns so it doesn't turn into a movie we watched hundreds of times.

Frankly, The more I learn about this game the more impressed I am at the depth of play coded into it (considering the limited scope of the focus in a very long and complicated war.) It makes the dumb mistakes which gives rise to the patches that much more striking. I can live with it as it is now. I work hard to preservie my sub and my crew. I'm rewarded with a machine that requires little maintenance and fights hard when I need it to.
-Pv-

But in this case I feel that, to use the chess analogy, we had one of our rooks removed. If the Balao's rated crush depth was near 900ft, then I think it would be reasonable to expect to survive a dive to 600ft in said submarine, so long as the hull was undamaged.

In my mind, not being able to dive to reasonable depths detract a bit from the game. If I'm getting targeted for a DC run, I would like to not be limited to diving to the TESTED depth of the sub and fear being insta-killed because I was just under the tested depth.

Is that unreasonable of me to want to be able to dive to more accurate depths? I don't think so.

[Ducimus]

Well, I've done some searching, but the closest I've found is a kinda homebrew program that requires .NET 2 in order to get the program.

But I KNOW I saw a topic about editing Hex and I can't find it now. Weird.


http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3sdk.htm#tweaker

Have fun. ;)

[TriskettheKid]

Well, I've done some searching, but the closest I've found is a kinda homebrew program that requires .NET 2 in order to get the program.

But I KNOW I saw a topic about editing Hex and I can't find it now. Weird.

http://www.delraydepot.com/tt/sh3sdk.htm#tweaker

Have fun. ;)

Ah, thanks very much.

Time to mess around for a bit.

[Ducimus]

You know you could just ask, or D/L a mod. But i suppose im one to talk :roll: Nope, i won't be accused of discouraging anyone from modding. Have fun.

Tweak files can be applied to SH4.

use "search" instead of "absolute" in many cases.

The variables your looking for are "Crash speed" and "crash depth".

[TriskettheKid]

Crash? Not crush?

Bah, I'm going to start a topic on the Modding forum.

[Ducimus]

The stuff your going through, is what many modders consider, "basic crap". The particualar thing your after has been done, and redone, for several years now. (crush depth) Personnaly, ive never made a single crushdepth mod because its such a simple thing to do, hell, anybody can, and most probably do, do it on their own. Its really not that hard.

One thing you'll have to figure out, is what the terms used in the files are. Its not called "crush" in the files, but "crash", dont ask me why, i didnt build the file. Also the number cited in the file, does not translate to any metric or imperial measurement. I can't tell you waht the exact number means (others can), other that if you want to increase crush depth, you increase the crash depth. The bigger the number, the deeper the crush depth. That said, for the most part, the majority of the game intrinsicly uses metric measruements in its files just FYI.

Crash speed deals with how fast (or slow) you implode.

[WernerSobe]

Yes but these effects start when you reach the true crush depth. thats to late you cannot save the boat at this moment anymore. When you see lights going out your hull is already at 0% and a second later you see the game over screen.
Thats not what ive seen. Ive been down at crush depth with the lights flickering a good 15 minutes before the hull went from 0 damage to 100. So im disagreeing.

I will agree however, if the crunch still occurs if you move out of the crush area after 5 minutes of those 15 that i observed.

It may be different for different subs. I can say for sure about tambor. It does not do any sounds and there is nothing indicating the crush depth until the hull is instantly gone at exactly 390 ft.

right there you see the lights going out and next moment game over screen. The problem is that this magic threshold changes when the sub has been damaged. You never know when its going to happen.

[Powerthighs]

This may be completely useless but in Clear the Bridge O'Kane describes taking the Tang on one of its initial shake down runs. They went deep to get a feel for how she would react. They got down past 600 feet. The first indictation that they had reached their limit was that some line broke and started spraying water all over the place. They surfaced and later re-engineered the way the flanges fit together to make it more resistant to pressure.

Anyways, the point was that in testing the depth of the sub they were able to observer internal component failures that told them they had reached a problematic depth. They were still able to surface and live to fight another day.

[Peto]

I don't see anything unrealistic with, say, trying to dive to 600ft in a Balao to try and escape a DC run. I've seen quite a few stories on here about subs that did that at times.


I've talked to quite a few sub vets and I do know one thing: None of them would want to be on your boat :shifty:. Test depth for a Balao was 400 feet. They'd go 500 when things were extremely difficult--as in being held under for hours and getting desperate.

Just because a subs theoretical crush depth is X feet doesn't mean the crew wants to go to X-10.

[epower]

Been reading Adm Eugene Fluckey's "Thunder below" in which he chronicles his 5 war patrols as commander of USS Barb. Rated for 312 feet max depth, Fluckey took her much deeper as a matter of course. The following excerpt from page 306 describes an event during the June 1945 refit:

"Our underway period with a much-decorated training officer, Creed Burlingame, was perfection: eight fish fired - eight hits... Creed even thought we were a thick-skinned submarine tested to 435 feet. I assured him that although the Barb was thin skinned, we had been that deep before, but my criterion for going no deeper was the forward battery deck. Our maximum depth was when it started to rumple or flex, not 312 feet"

No way of getting (or mimicing) such an indicator in game is there?

[-Pv-]

You have a "rated" crush depth indicator. Some or most individual subs will go deeper. You just don't know how deep or how long. On my way out of port I always do one or more crash dives to see how the crew and boat responds before I get into battle. I use that to judge how far I will go when I get desparate. If I rack it up, I'm only an hour game time into the patrol and can easily start over. I haven't had to though. I dive to what I think is a reasonable escape depth for the amount of risk I usually take and if the sub makes it there without damage for a little while, I go back up and continue the patrol.

It's easy to equate depth with safety. A good game balances risk with rewards.
-Pv-

[Sailor Steve]

I can't deal with another patch. If there is, i swear i will remove this site from my bookmarks, and run away from the computer screaming like a lunatic.
Please remember to make a video, so we can enjoy the show.:sunny:




Hey, I'd do the same for you.:rotfl:

[Steeltrap]

I don't see anything unrealistic with, say, trying to dive to 600ft in a Balao to try and escape a DC run. I've seen quite a few stories on here about subs that did that at times.


I've talked to quite a few sub vets and I do know one thing: None of them would want to be on your boat :shifty:. Test depth for a Balao was 400 feet. They'd go 500 when things were extremely difficult--as in being held under for hours and getting desperate.

Just because a subs theoretical crush depth is X feet doesn't mean the crew wants to go to X-10.

Was Tang a Balao class?

From Clear the Bridge (pages 39-40):

In time of peace I might have accepted the stipulated test depth of 438ft, but....knowing that extra depth could mean survival, establishing a maximum depth closer to the hull's true capability seemed in order. The dive was slow and deliberate, with battle telephones manned in each compartment, and with officers and senior petty officers stationed throughout the submarine. At any sign of trouble, Tang would start up again.....We passed our test depth, but at 450ft a guage line came apart and one of the hoses to our Bendix speed log ruptured.....At 525ft, the rollers that held the sound heads in the lowered position against sea pressure cracked. The heads housed themselves with a swoosh.....at 580ft the flanged joints in the vent risers took off like road sprinklers....rather drenching the area but with little volume.....the very fact that 600ft was the last figure on the depth guage did cause some uneasiness, like coming to the edge of the ocean.....Tang's actual test depth was 612ft. (note that I have edited this to cut out the descriptions of what they did to correct each problem....the actual process was spread over a few days with them correcting things back at the base....this version makes it look like they just kept diving like mad, but they were far more careful than that!)

So there is a detailed, unequivocal account of what it was like to push depth until things "happened", by the man himself in charge of doing it. Incidentally, this confidence in their true depth capability was used regularly, with diving to 500ft during evasion not even something to be regarded as unusual.

Peter Cremer in U-333: the Story of a U-Boat Ace, pointed out that VIIC boats regularly went to 200m (or about 670ft), and some went well beyond that to the point that their frame members began to crack!!

Either way, the 'sorry, everything has failed at once' is not, based on available testimony, a realistic situation. It stands to reason that the 'weakest links' would give way as the initial warning, as per O'Kane's description.

As an aside, Peto, I'd be very interested to hear from vets what their opinion of O'Kane was.....

Cheers all!

[TheSatyr]

I always use the flickering lights in the conning tower as a way to judge how deep it's safe to dive.On the Tambor I have now the lights start flickering just past 360 ft. So I don't go any deeper than 355 ft. I might be able to get away with going below 360 for a little while,but i don't want to chance it.

[Peto]

Was Tang a Balao class?

From Clear the Bridge (pages 39-40):

In time of peace I might have accepted the stipulated test depth of 438ft, but....knowing that extra depth could mean survival, establishing a maximum depth closer to the hull's true capability seemed in order. The dive was slow and deliberate, with battle telephones manned in each compartment, and with officers and senior petty officers stationed throughout the submarine. At any sign of trouble, Tang would start up again.....We passed our test depth, but at 450ft a guage line came apart and one of the hoses to our Bendix speed log ruptured.....At 525ft, the rollers that held the sound heads in the lowered position against sea pressure cracked. The heads housed themselves with a swoosh.....at 580ft the flanged joints in the vent risers took off like road sprinklers....rather drenching the area but with little volume.....the very fact that 600ft was the last figure on the depth guage did cause some uneasiness, like coming to the edge of the ocean.....Tang's actual test depth was 612ft. (note that I have edited this to cut out the descriptions of what they did to correct each problem....the actual process was spread over a few days with them correcting things back at the base....this version makes it look like they just kept diving like mad, but they were far more careful than that!)

So there is a detailed, unequivocal account of what it was like to push depth until things "happened", by the man himself in charge of doing it. Incidentally, this confidence in their true depth capability was used regularly, with diving to 500ft during evasion not even something to be regarded as unusual.

Peter Cremer in U-333: the Story of a U-Boat Ace, pointed out that VIIC boats regularly went to 200m (or about 670ft), and some went well beyond that to the point that their frame members began to crack!!

Either way, the 'sorry, everything has failed at once' is not, based on available testimony, a realistic situation. It stands to reason that the 'weakest links' would give way as the initial warning, as per O'Kane's description.

As an aside, Peto, I'd be very interested to hear from vets what their opinion of O'Kane was.....

Cheers all!

Hey Steeltrap! I love your quotes! Those are some of my favorites--especially where Cremer talks about pushing it until frame members begin to crack :o.

Yes, the Tang was a Balao Class. And it survived a 700 foot dive (as you probably know from the book). As far as what most vets I've talked to thought of Ace skippers like O'Kane, Morton, Dealey et al--most of them say those guys were crazy (reflected by how many were killed). They liked what they were doing whereas most guys just wanted to get home alive.

I had lunch with a guy who was on the Barb when Fluckey took it into that shallow harbor. He said it was surreal because it was just too nuts to do. He was on the bridge for some of it. While telling me about it, he grabbed all the salt and pepper shakers from surrounding tables to lay out what he remembered. After a little while a waitress came over and asked if she could have a couple back :lol:.

I've been lucky with all the vets I've met that were willing to talk to me. Some were even excited to talk. But I wasn't smart enough to have a tape player with me :roll:. I very much regret that.

Cheers!

Peto

[DeepIron]

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic...

On a sad note, he passed away on June 28th of this year.

[Peto]

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic...

On a sad note, he passed away on June 28th of this year.

:yep: I have an autographed copy of his book.

[DeepIron]

I have an autographed copy of his book.
Outstanding! I would have liked to meet him. :up:

[Steeltrap]

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic...

On a sad note, he passed away on June 28th of this year.

To me, the really sad part is all those who didn't have the chance to live until now on account of the stupidities of war.....

Peto, glad you enjoy the quotes! I've forned the view from reading about some of the aces that they had a few things in common - single minded determination, complete absence of fear, exceptional understanding of the capabilities of their own boat and the enemy units and a willingness to take calculated risks. That last one is the real kicker. What might appear as sheer craziness can be viewed differently when you have a chance to understand the reasoning of the skipper. O'Kane's tactical explanations throughout Clear the Bridge are a real eye-opener: he seemed to have an uncanny grasp of what was possible, right to the limit....there are examples where he decided to call of attacks as he decided the risk level was too great, so it certainly wasn't recklessness.....although I found the part where he described firing at a target while going full astern as Tang had RUN AGROUND while submerged rather extraordinary :o :o !!! His comment on that is rather telling, too: "no submarine is ever truly aground until she's high and dry". That shows a real understanding of the absolute limit....probably why he - and some others - were far more successful than most.

Cheers

[Trickyfish]

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic... Which book is this? I'd like to find it and add it to my list of "books to read if I find the time". :D

Trickyfish
[edit] fixed typos

[TriskettheKid]

I wasn't talking about trying to be a heavy risk-taker (unlike my times in SHIII and GWX).

It's just that, with the way the game works when vanilla, you will be insta-killed when you go below TEST depth, not even anywhere near predicted CRUSH depth.

There is no reason why I should be insta-killed just diving to 500-600 feet when my new and undamaged sub (Balao) had a predicted crush depth around 900ft.

[cmdrk]

Not to take this OT but Barb was one of my favorite subs from the war as well. Those guys did incredible things, like being the first submarine to fire rockets at land targets. Fluckeys book is certainly a classic... Which book is this? I'd like to find it and add it to my list of "books to read if I find the time". :D

Trickyfish
[edit] fixed typos

Thunder Below
I believe.

[DeepIron]

Here's an Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Thunder-Below-Revolutionizes-Submarine-Warfare/dp/0252066707

It's a fantastic account of the USS Barb under the command of Eugene Fluckey and well worth the read.

[mookiemookie]

There is no reason why I should be insta-killed just diving to 500-600 feet when my new and undamaged sub (Balao) had a predicted crush depth around 900ft.
I've never read of any U.S. subs in the WW2 era ever even approaching 900 feet deep. 500-600 feet was pretty damn deep. You have to remember that these aren't U-boats here...they just could not go that far down.

[TriskettheKid]

There is no reason why I should be insta-killed just diving to 500-600 feet when my new and undamaged sub (Balao) had a predicted crush depth around 900ft.
I've never read of any U.S. subs in the WW2 era ever even approaching 900 feet deep. 500-600 feet was pretty damn deep. You have to remember that these aren't U-boats here...they just could not go that far down.

Look, I understand that we cannot routinely dive to 900 feet. I know that. I just said that, for the Balao-class, predicted crush depth was somewhere around 700-900 feet.

I know that, with the Balao-class, there are many accounts of subs diving to 600 feet.

I'm not asking for, nor do I desire, the ability to just stay submerged indefinitely at 600+ feet.

I just want to be able to dive to historically accurate depths for the sub I'm in without worrying about getting insta-killed because I went below test depth.

[Sailor Steve]

I liked TimeTraveller's Crush Depth Mod for SH3, which allowed you to set the crush depth, and then randomize it.

Similar to TriskettheKid, I don't care what the crush depth turns out to be, as long as I see and hear things breaking and get lot's of "Sir, we're too deep!" warnings.

[Steeltrap]

I wasn't talking about trying to be a heavy risk-taker (unlike my times in SHIII and GWX).

It's just that, with the way the game works when vanilla, you will be insta-killed when you go below TEST depth, not even anywhere near predicted CRUSH depth.

There is no reason why I should be insta-killed just diving to 500-600 feet when my new and undamaged sub (Balao) had a predicted crush depth around 900ft.

Totally agree with you. I included the comments about ris-taking to point out that an 'educated' risk is a very different proposition to "let's try it and see what happens". I hoped my thread actually added support to your point by giving a real life example of things 'breaking' gradually at deeper depths.

The bigger issue is that the sim is set up such that DCs always explode at your depth. That is totally unrealistic. It makes depth important merely for the added amount of time it takes a charge to reach you, and not for the fact that you could actually have charges going off well 'above' you - a common occurrence in both theatres (Pac and Atlantic).

[TheSatyr]

We don't know the true crush depths for any world war 2 sub classes...the only ones who do know died with their boats.

[tater]

FWIW, I think the depth setting problem may not be insurmountable :)

[TriskettheKid]

We don't know the true crush depths for any world war 2 sub classes...the only ones who do know died with their boats.

But I don't care what the actual crush depths are.

I just care about being able to dive to depths deeper than the TEST depth of the sub I'm currently in.

If I'm in a Balao, with a Test depth of something like 400ft, and a predicted crush depth of 700-900ft, I expect to, if need be, live through a dive to 600ft, if my sub is undamaged.

There is no reason, NONE, as to why I should be insta-killed for going 50-100ft below the TEST depth of the sub.

[DeepIron]

But I don't care what the actual crush depths are.
I just care about being able to dive to depths deeper than the TEST depth of the sub I'm currently in.
If I'm in a Balao, with a Test depth of something like 400ft, and a predicted crush depth of 700-900ft, I expect to, if need be, live through a dive to 600ft, if my sub is undamaged.
There is no reason, NONE, as to why I should be insta-killed for going 50-100ft below the TEST depth of the sub.

It is what it is. If it turns out to be a moddable quantity, I'm sure it will be fixed eventually.

Until then, learn to live with it..:shifty:

[Zero Niner]

Just to add my $0.02 here.
I recently read two books about WW2 US Subs - one about the USS Rasher (iric), and the other about O'Kane in the Wahoo & Tang.

I remember reading that the US built their boats with a safety factor. Meaning that if test depth was 400' then the crush depth would be deeper than that.

[GOZO]

anyway. I think there should be something that tells you that youre close to crush depth before you crush. All i want is a chance to react.

I have no time to read through all the posts here but in SHIV career mode you have the chance to commission a new boat and perform deep-dive tests.

During that test you should be in the conning tower since its the first place that breaks due to pressure.

Did that and got flickering lights etc at 450 ft where I blew ballast and surfaced.

Just a note...:)

Regards

/OB

[tater]

Wonder if a sound file could be attached to the con shipping water, etc. "Sir, we're starting to spring leaks all over!"

tater

[Wilcke]

Wonder if a sound file could be attached to the con shipping water, etc. "Sir, we're starting to spring leaks all over!"

tater

That would be cool!

Wilcke

[Steeltrap]

Wonder if a sound file could be attached to the con shipping water, etc. "Sir, we're starting to spring leaks all over!"

tater

Especially if the voice were of a person partially underwater....

:rotfl: :rotfl: