ID manual of real captains in ww2

[Jaeger]

in the german ubi forum, someone asked for the way, real captains made a torpdeo solution in ww2. i answered him, that they used the kreisrechenschieber (instrument simulated in olc gui) and a stoppuhr for this. sometimes they estimated speed by observing the bug wave or by taking a parallel course and speed with their own boat. thats the answer for their instruments. but what about the identification manual? did they have an ID book where they could find all the data we have in sh3? how many different ship types could they meet in the atlantic? how often did they meet ships, which they could not find in their id books? and how often did they have to estimate hight or length? were there formulars for estimation? are there some real id manuals, which could be recherched today?


lots of questions, i know...

Jaeger

[BulSoldier]

I watched a movie in youtube that was shown for a brief time a book with a black shadows showing only sideway the ship. The book was really big and many ships on a page.

[Jaeger]

I watched a movie in youtube that was shown for a brief time a book with a black shadows showing only sideway the ship. The book was really big and many ships on a page.

do you remember the title of that film?

[BulSoldier]

i will search and if something hapens to cross my way i will post it right away.

[dmlavan]

From what I've found by reading numerous books, the manual they typically used was made by Weyers. The title was something along the lines of "Weyer's Taschenbuch". Weyers is the German equivalent of Janes, and you can still find updated versions today. Every now and then you can find an original WW2-era version on Ebay as well.

[candy2500]

I watched a movie in youtube that was shown for a brief time a book with a black shadows showing only sideway the ship. The book was really big and many ships on a page.

yes.. i seen the same thing but it was on a TV documentary. it was a big and long looking thick book with blacken pics of ships but the one in the documentary i seen it had a side view and a forward view and from back view. the forward and back view was small pics under a much bigger and longer side view.

[BulSoldier]

i cant remember in detail.The kaleun (i think) was looking through periscop and one of the oficers was showing the book.Indeed long thick book (may be only the pages were thick,but in any case it seems the whole books contained many many ships)

[Hitman]

The Kaleun was Erich Topp, and the film was done during one of his patrols during Drumbeat, when a reporter was taken aboard. The video can be seen in You Tube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL36PWsjv9k

Fast forward to 4 minutes and 17 seconds...the IWO hears what the captain tells about the ship and looks in the recognition manual, then shows it to the captain for confirmation :up:

[Jaeger]

your link doesnt work. "file removed by user"... perhaps wrong link?

edit: i found some nice reprints and also original books by ebay: weihers flottentaschenbuch. i think i need one, will try to hunt in sh3 with an original book. would be also interesting, if there are complete mast hights and length in it...

edit2: i served in the german marine as a signal guest and i remember we used the janes recognition manual...

[danlisa]

But what about the identification manual? Did they have an ID book where they could find all the data we have in sh3?

Yes, they had a Kreigsmarine ID book and while I have never actually seen one, the information was taken from pre-war knowledge, neutral merchant reports & actual contact encounters.

I have examples of a US recognition manual showing a sample of the German Vessels from an ID book dated in 1943.
The full pack contains US, UK, JPN, ITN & GER ship ID's:rock:

Here's a few examples of what the yanks had.;)

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4562/212zh8.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=212zh8.jpg) http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/1668/214pm3.th.jpg (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=214pm3.jpg)

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4761/215gk6.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=215gk6.jpg) http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1716/216ec4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=216ec4.jpg)

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2368/217cc8.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=217cc8.jpg) http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5484/218eb1.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=218eb1.jpg)

[Jaeger]

thanks for information. looks like the devs copied the american book for sh3. are there images from a german id book anywhere?

[Checkmate King 2]

I know for sure they used Lloyd's Registry

[flag4]

But what about the identification manual? Did they have an ID book where they could find all the data we have in sh3?

Yes, they had a Kreigsmarine ID book and while I have never actually seen one, the information was taken from pre-war knowledge, neutral merchant reports & actual contact encounters.

I have examples of a US recognition manual showing a sample of the German Vessels from an ID book dated in 1943.
The full pack contains US, UK, JPN, ITN & GER ship ID's:rock:

Here's a few examples of what the yanks had.;)

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/4562/212zh8.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=212zh8.jpg) http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/1668/214pm3.th.jpg (http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=214pm3.jpg)

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4761/215gk6.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=215gk6.jpg) http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1716/216ec4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=216ec4.jpg)

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2368/217cc8.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=217cc8.jpg) http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5484/218eb1.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=218eb1.jpg)

CERTAINLY DO NOT wish to sound disrespectful, but these would make great mouse mats - gonna do one, get it laminated !!

[Jonathan]

Man...one of those ships had a seaplane on the back of it...I wonder how successful there getting that thing on and off the boat and into the drink.

[bigboywooly]

Man...one of those ships had a seaplane on the back of it...I wonder how successful there getting that thing on and off the boat and into the drink.

Most battleships and indeed heavy cruisers carried seaplanes
Usually on\off loaded with a crane though some had short skid sections with catapaults the aircraft could take straight off from

Arado being hauled back on the Blucher

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/blucherarado.jpg

Bismarck hoisting its back onboard

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/arado6.jpg

And a Kingfisher coming off USS Quincy

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/k01950.jpg

And a Walrus being bought back onboard HMS Nigeria

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/Walrus.jpg

[jimmie]

....(snip)....by taking a parallel course and speed with their own boat.


Wow. This really sounds authentic to me! I think I've done this method once or twice just by accident, tho.

....(snip)....and how often did they have to estimate hight or length? were there formulars for estimation? are there some real id manuals, which could be recherched today?


I found Hitman's this description interesting:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=123373&page=5

And I guess mast height was taken a bit differently than what we do in the game sinece draft of the ship must have varied by payloads.

[Subject]

He! Just yesterday I got a delivery from my bookdealer. One of the books was this:

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/Silent%20Hunter%20III/Front.jpg

Titel: "Weyers Pocketbook of Naval Fleets 1937"

Here's a sample page:
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/Silent%20Hunter%20III/Sample1.jpg

In the advertising section there's a page from Fried. Krupp Germaniawerft A.G. Kiel-Gaarden:
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/Silent%20Hunter%20III/Weddigen.jpg

If interested I can get the last picture scanned in a better quality...

I think he still have a copy or two http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/smilies/scratch.gif

[Stealth Hunter]

He! Just yesterday I got a delivery from my bookdealer. One of the books was this:

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/Silent%20Hunter%20III/Front.jpg

Titel: "Weyers Pocketbook of Naval Fleets 1937"

Here's a sample page:
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/Silent%20Hunter%20III/Sample1.jpg

In the advertising section there's a page from Fried. Krupp Germaniawerft A.G. Kiel-Gaarden:
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/Silent%20Hunter%20III/Weddigen.jpg

If interested I can get the last picture scanned in a better quality...

I think he still have a copy or two http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/smilies/scratch.gif

Cost of this item?

[bigboywooly]

http://mysite.verizon.net/noder/germanbooks.htm

Has a 41\42 copy for $75

[Subject]

I paid 13£ = 17 euro or 25$.

[Jaeger]

i made an observation of such a book but missed the point of sale... 13 € endprice...

indeed nice one. is it possible to use it for sh3? anything like a c2 or something like that in it? what about the terminology? do thery call them c2, t3 and so on?

[Jonathan]

Man...one of those ships had a seaplane on the back of it...I wonder how successful there getting that thing on and off the boat and into the drink.
Most battleships and indeed heavy cruisers carried seaplanes
Usually on\off loaded with a crane though some had short skid sections with catapaults the aircraft could take straight off from

Arado being hauled back on the Blucher

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/blucherarado.jpg

Bismarck hoisting its back onboard

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/arado6.jpg

And a Kingfisher coming off USS Quincy

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/k01950.jpg

And a Walrus being bought back onboard HMS Nigeria

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/Walrus.jpg

It just seems so DANGEROUS! Seaplanes are notorious for leaks, aren't they? And then there is the surf and the waves. A plane is not a boot!

[bigboywooly]

True but sending an aircraft aloft increased the ships visual range by hundreds of miles
Very usefull if you are a surface ship looking for a convoy or the oppositions warships

[PhantomLord]

Another important ID manual was:

Erich Gröner, Handelsflotten der Welt 1942 (Merchant fleets of the world)

So far as i know the last full release was 1942 with an addition from 1944.

Together with:

Erich Gröner, Suchliste für Schiffsnamen (Search list for ship names)