[REQ] Spotting of submerged subs by aircraft - any mods deal with this?

[panthercules]

While trying to find some information on when ComSubAsiatic changed to ComSubSoWesPac I ran across the following information on what seems to be an official USN website (http://www.csp.navy.mil/):

RADM Withers was also the first force commander to order each of his submarines to travel below test depth at least once on each transit to their operating area. He also hammered home the idea to his submarine commanders that it was unsafe to transit at a depth of 125 feet because of the boat's visibility to low-flying enemy aircraft. He often demonstrated this theory by taking his sub commanders on airplane rides to prove how easily the boats could be spotted from the air.

I'd heard that maybe they could be seen sometimes at periscope depth, but I never realized it was a problem down as deep as 125 feet - has anybody else seen any decent research/info on this factor, and have any of the modders tried to build in any ability of eneny aircraft to spot submerged subs at any depth? (I thought I remembered some discussion about one of the mod pkgs like TM or RFB trying to do this, but I couldn't find it again).

[Ducimus]

Nope, no mod deals with this. Its impossible to do! Total waste of time! :rotfl:

[hyperion2206]

I think TM 1.6.5 has this feature implemented. I once attacked a ship on the surface with my deck gun and suddenly to enemy planes appeared. I crash dived and they started to bomb the exact spot were I was. They must have seen me underwater because I dived before they were in visual range (picked them up on SD radar on long range).

[hyperion2206]

Nope, no mod deals with this. Its impossible to do! Total waste of time! :rotfl:
I don't like to be contradicted.:rotfl:

[Ducimus]

I think TM 1.6.5 has this feature implemented.

I wish! Maybe if i wish hard enough it will happen! No really!

Psst, - http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124138&page=4

[panthercules]

I think TM 1.6.5 has this feature implemented.

I wish! Maybe if i wish hard enough it will happen! No really!

Psst, - http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124138&page=4


Very cool - looks like I lost track of that thread for a while there. I saw some indication that some of this work was going to find it's way into RSRD. I'm still testing out RFB/RSRD/ROW at the moment and haven't had time to try out TM yet - do you know if RSRD includes this submerged sub spotting capability, or do you have to be using TM to get it?

[Sailor Steve]

On the other hand, planes spotting subs at 100 feet couldn't do much about it except call for destroyers, since air-dropped depth charges could only be set to go off at 25 feet. Period.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMJAP_ASW.htm

[Peto]

SailorSteve: Reluctantly--I must make my first post to say I disagree RESPECTFULLY!!!

The following was posted earlier by tater in a different thread when the visual mod was being worked on. The info in the box is from an interview with a Japanese Airman. There are instances where boats were dropped on while at deep depth. George Grider (Wahoo, Pollack, Hailbut, Flasher) mentions getting smacked in his book Warfish while they were deep. No doubt it was a rare occurance though.

I've also read in other sources that the Japanese worked with other depth settings for air drop DC's to be used with the patrol planes they installed MAD gear on. By the time they got it figured out though, their planes were mostly lost/shot down...

The following is from a previous post, quoting tater:

In RL, they had 2 different DC det depths. Make 2 identical bombs, one to each depth, and put 1 of each on the planes.


Quote:
Q. When making an attack on a submarine, were pilots allowed to drop depth charges after the submarine disappeared below the surface?
A. Yes.


Q. How many seconds after the submarine disappeared from sight were they allowed to attack?
A. Within 30 seconds.


Q. What size of depth bombs did your aircraft use?
A. 250 kg.


Q. Did you use any other airborne weapon besides depth bombs?
A. We had nothing besides bombs. The bomb was a standard 250 kg bomb with a modified flat nose attachment and a special tail, a nose and tail fuse was used.


Q. What depth setting did you use?
A. We used 25 and 45 meters. If the submarine was discovered near a convoy at periscope depth and immediately submerged, we dropped the 25 meter; if time passed and gave the submarine time to go to a lower depth, we would drop the 45 meter bomb.


Q. Did you drop more than one depth bomb at a time?
A. Generally we dropped only one, but sometimes two.


Q. When you dropped two, what spacing was used?
A. None, the bombs were dropped simultaneously. Only experienced pilots were allowed to drop all bombs at once.


Q. At what distance from the submarine was it necessary to explode the depth charge in order to sink the submarine?
A. With the 250 kg bomb, it had to hit within 13 meters of the submarine in order to sink it. The smaller planes equipped with 60 kg bombs had to make a direct hit on the submarine to sink it.



So 25m and 45m were the 2 real depth settings. I'd set the depth to that, no or little error. The burst charge on a standard 250kg makes it about as strong as the type 2 with a 162kg warhead, maybe more. In my current DC mod that's ~50% more powerful than the stock DC tyou are used to. I can make 2 versions, one for stock, 1 in line with my DC mod.

[DrBeast]

I think TM 1.6.5 has this feature implemented.
I wish! Maybe if i wish hard enough it will happen! No really!

Psst, - http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124138&page=4

Very cool - looks like I lost track of that thread for a while there. I saw some indication that some of this work was going to find it's way into RSRD. I'm still testing out RFB/RSRD/ROW at the moment and haven't had time to try out TM yet - do you know if RSRD includes this submerged sub spotting capability, or do you have to be using TM to get it?
If memory serves, no. But let me check my downloads to be sure...nope, it doesn't.

But you could always grab that file from the thread Duci mentioned and make your own little mod. All you need to do is make a small change to each aircraft's .sns file (notepad to the rescue!). You'll just need to replace
AI_Visual with
AirS_Visual

ETA: Nevermind all that, I had forgotten it was already done in the Test file
*DrBeast sneaks away at crush depth completely embarrased
ETA #2: I could have sworn you could strike over words in this forum...

[tater]

Yeah, sailor steve, they carried a mix of air dropped DCs with 2 depth settings. 25m, and 45m. I actually have these modded in now.

Think ducimus used them. I've been out of the loop for a while. First ~10 days of horrid preschool plague passed around the family a couple times, then everyone got beter in time for thanksgiving, and we've been dealing with family since last week. Finally back to normal around here.

I'll get my act together and start messing with this soon. I'm looking forward to the new S3D release.

tater

[Ducimus]

I was testing your Air DC/Bomb changes but got sidetracted by something else. I do that alot. :roll:

[DrBeast]

Speaking of that nifty little mod of yours, Ducimus, I'll have to download TMaru to see what changes you've made to sim.cfg. In my home-brewed settings, and having halved the AirS_Visual sensor's range, I get spotted even at 160m of depth! :damn: I began gradually "increasing" the Surface area, went as far as -4.3 (from your -4.35 I think?) before a particularly nasty bomb dropped on me and landed me on my bed at 0300 hours! :rotfl:

ETA: 100 posts in a month...damn, I don't seem to shut up, do I!

[Ducimus]

I have found two things when playing with that.

a.) increasing the maximum visual range of a sensor doesnt seem to do very much in terms of WHEN your detected. For example, i could set the max range at 10,000, or 20,000 and id still get detected at approximately the same distance.

b.) maximum range seems to effect other variables in wierd ways. heres a thought i had, as right, or as wrong, as it maybe:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/min_height_problem.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

Interesting that John Campbell, after decades of research for Naval Weapons of World War Two, would get that wrong.

The ones with those settings are also listed as "probably" not in use by 1941. Of course they may have been using the type 95, the same as the ships used, in which case the settings would be 30 and 60 meters.

[tater]

The quote I posted was from the US Strategic Bombing Survey interviews directly after the war with japanese officers.

It was not a type 95, it was a modified GP bomb.

tater

[Sailor Steve]

US Strategic Bombing Survey
Well, that puts a whole different slant on things. I'm familiar with that work as it strongly affects an airwar miniatures game that a friend of mine developed years ago. If they said it, it's almost certainly true.

You win.:rotfl: :rock:

[tater]

SS, here's a cool link for ya:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/index.html

^^^^^ intervews

There are subjects in there like: Escort and Defense of Shipping, ASW, etc.

This is the air ASW link quoted:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-63.html

tater

[Sailor Steve]

WOOHOO!!!!!

Heard so much about it; always wanted to read certain sections.

Thank you so much for that link!:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

[DrBeast]

I have found two things when playing with that.

a.) increasing the maximum visual range of a sensor doesnt seem to do very much in terms of WHEN your detected. For example, i could set the max range at 10,000, or 20,000 and id still get detected at approximately the same distance.

b.) maximum range seems to effect other variables in wierd ways. heres a thought i had, as right, or as wrong, as it maybe:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/min_height_problem.jpg

Cheers. I might cave and reset the max range to your settings. I should also revisit that thread and recall your progress, might give me some further insight. Hey wait...there's a new patch out. Gotta try and transmongrify my menu_1024.ini file first, to make 1.4 compatible. Bleh...

[tater]

NP, man. It is certainly a time sink :yep: