Sub Pitch Tweaking - Comparison Testing

[panthercules]

I've been messing around with various tweaks trying to induce a better pitching motion to my sub, and I've been staring at so many combinations lately that I've begun to wonder if I'm making any progress or not. If anybody has a couple of minutes, I'd appreciate it if you could watch a couple of short videos (30 seconds each) and let me know by voting in the poll if you can tell any difference and, if so, which one you like the best:

Take 1 can be viewed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CW0ygPPUFE

Take 2 can be viewed here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238xAl0G6Rs

Thanks in advance for the help.

[ReallyDedPoet]

I like number 2 panther, like the waves crashing over the bow especially :up:


RDP

[Bill Nichols]

Ditto, Number 2.

:up:

[Ivan Putski]

No.2 does it for me.:up:

[swdw]

Are you messing with the fr_ratio? I found out that throws off aiming through the "sccope" on the deck gun and have pulled it for now. You have to make additional mods so the gun scope will be accurate.

As for the videos, I'd like it halfway between the 2.

Once done, looks like it might fit in well with RFB (hint, hint) :D ;)

[panthercules]

Are you messing with the fr_ratio?

Nope - I did for a while, but like you I realized that has some undesirable side effects so I've left that at the normal .5 value for these latest tests. (Leovampire had originally suggested using that factor, but as Leo pointed out to me in PM, it makes the dive planesmen keep the planes at odd levels to try to keep the sub trimmed front-to-back underwater, and if you go too far with it your boat actually stands on its head, so I decided to stay away from that parameter.)

[gimpy117]

one loked like the sub had mass, 2 looked like it was getting tossed around a bit too much

[leovampire]

But #2 looks better.

Either lowered the sub's surface depth or changed the surface mass maybe?

I know as you do that fr is a dead issue to work with.

CG is almost totaly from side to side movement on the surface except when diving and surfacing as it will make the sub pitch up and down for that a lot.

[jdkbph]

The pitch in #2 looks great... like some of those Victory at Sea type clips. The roll in both looked a bit too fast however.

JD

[leovampire]

The pitch in #2 looks great... like some of those Victory at Sea type clips. The roll in both looked a bit too fast however.

JD

Unlike a ship a sub back then did not have the stability with such a rounded under side of it. That is normal to see that.

[THE_MASK]

Too much listing port and starboard .

[momo55]

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5259/msiwavefunps4.jpg
Like i already mentioned in the ROW topic (page 54 post 1080) with this pic for a example ...you could ad to the pitchfeeling by increasing the bowsplash when you are surfaced in 14-15 m/sec (highest values in sh4) conditions IMHO.
Just look at this pic and you can see (almost feel) that there are some huge forces involved here.
This could help simulate pitch maybe from another angle..without too much touching other settings that could cause
new problemes with other settings.

I choose #2

my 2€cents

[Digital_Trucker]

Two for me too!

[panthercules]

you could ad to the pitchfeeling by increasing the bowsplash when you are surfaced in 14-15 m/sec (highest values in sh4) conditions IMHO

I agree - I think a bigger bow splash would help a lot. Unfortunately, I have no clue how to increase that :cry:

Thanks for the input - it seems that I'm on the right track and making some progress at least. Part of my problem is that a part of me wants to see the sort of big-time, crashing-through-the-waves visuals we experienced with SH3, but another part of me keeps saying that the US subs had a higher profile and more freeboard than the German U-boats and so probably did not look the same as the German ones going through the water in these same sea states, so I have to tone down my expectations somewhat.

Also have to do some more testing at various wind/sea states to make sure nothing else is getting broken, but so far so good - the testing in the videos was in the midst of a fleet of fishing boats, and none of them seemed to be getting damaged by the slightly higher wave heights involved, so hopefully this won't suffer from the problem of ships sinking from too-heavy seas that we've seen before.

If anybody knows how to increase the bow spray effect, please let me know and I can play around with that too while I'm doing this other testing.

[AVGWarhawk]

#2 is my pick. In seas like that the waves should be crashing over the deck and the crew turning green from the motion.

[jdkbph]

The pitch in #2 looks great... like some of those Victory at Sea type clips. The roll in both looked a bit too fast however.

JD
Unlike a ship a sub back then did not have the stability with such a rounded under side of it. That is normal to see that.

Understood LV. It's not the amplitude I was questioning... it's the frequency.

Perhaps a result of the boats in the game having way too much freeboard, which may itself be a result of not enough "mass" (or whatever the appropriate value might be)?

:o

JD

[Peto]

#2 looks good. #1 would force me to keep a bucket by my computer ;).

[panthercules]

Understood LV. It's not the amplitude I was questioning... it's the frequency.

Yeah - that was bothering me a bit too. I think I may have figured out what controls the rate of roll for the sub :D It's looking better (I think) in my last couple of tests. Still gotta run some more "collateral damage" tests though to be sure. One avenue that looked very promising from a pitch perspective on the surface turned out to be a real sub killer - when I did a crash dive timing test, the timing was pretty good but the sub just kept right on going down to 600 feet and beyond with no sign of leveling off :o

So far this latest combination seems to have retained decent pitch/wave action yet dampened the roll speed with no ill effects on diving, turning, etc., but I'll have to run it through its paces in some different wind/sea states tomorrow to see how it holds up.

[capt_frank]

Two!

[captiandon]

I dont like eather. Did the boats pitch side to side like that? I had it where I liked it then I installed ROW and it messed it up. I would rather have one where the boat just pitched lateraly and not Side to side myself

[ATR-42]

a 300 foot sub is not going to pitch much, but i think it will pitch more than our stock SH4 installations. I think leo got the rolling close to where it should be with his latest ROW.

Regardless of the higher freeboard of the US subs, they rolled liked crazy, just the nature of a rounded hull boat verse that of a normal deep V hull. You can get a sense of this when reading Silent Running and Iron Coffins, especially looking at the pictures. My life experience is offshore V hulled type boats (50-60 feet)

i really like video number two. I'm not happy unless im on the verge of getting sea sick while manning the bridge in anything other than calm seas.

[panthercules]

Ok - thanks for "pitching" in here and helping out.

I don't know how to change or add a different poll to this thread, so I will be launching a new poll/thread momentarily and asking that you compare a new video with my latest set of tweaks - I hope you'll keep your eyes out for it and check out that thread that will be up in a few minutes.

[Hawk_345]

Well from what i see here now, take 2 vid is the best looking one, but im thinking in a real life situation it wold not be pitching that mutch, unless in fairly stormy seas.

[DrBeast]

I hope we'll eventually learn what it is you're tweaking...I'm dying to test this out myself! :up:

[Nanotick]

I like #2 better. I'd like to see a side veiw movie clip to see how of the boat comes out of the water.

[EAGLE_01]

So, How's it coming? I've been looking forward to this mod.....:up:

[panthercules]

So, How's it coming? I've been looking forward to this mod.....:up:

Momentarily on hold for a few days - since all this was being done on top of ROW and stock behaviors were potentially rather different, and because I have no intention of ever playing this game without ROW in some form or another, I temporarily suspended my testing until Leo had a chance to get ROW fixed up for 1.4, after which I'll jump back on this with a vengeance.

[FIREWALL]

#2 is my choice but don't stare at the video to long "URP" :D

I better get back to playing and get my sea legs back.:D That clip made me a little woozy.

[Thendash]

I thought take 1 looked better. Take 2 looked like it was going against the waves, like the waves were coming from right to left but it looked like it was rolling left to right(If that makes sense). Same with the up and down bit, yeah the waves "crashed" over the bow but it looked like it should have been riding the waves a bit more and go over them instead of under them like in take 2. Maybe a combo of the two would be best, have a bit of the wave go over the bow but not so much that it looks like the sub is duking under the wave like a surfer.

[The General]

As in aerodynamics, 'Roll' is the side to side movement, not 'Pitch' as you seem to be refering to it. Pitch is the movent from bow to stern. Like when you dive nose down. I would like to see video of a stationary Sub, Pitching & Rolling in the swell, before I vote on which configuration I prefer. This is good work though. The physics of surface vessels is something that's never been great in SH4, especially the sub that appears to travel on rails like the shark did in Jaws.

[panthercules]

As in aerodynamics, 'Roll' is the side to side movement, not 'Pitch' as you seem to be refering to it. Pitch is the movent from bow to stern. Like when you dive nose down.

I'm not sure who the "you" is that you are referring to above, but I understand and agree with you about the proper meaning of "pitch" and "roll". My purpose here has been to try to increase the "pitching" motion of the subs (real or, if necessary, just apparent), but to do so without screwing up the "roll" or any other aspects of the movement/behavior of the subs or the surface ships or messing up anything Leo is doing with ROW.

As I mentioned above, I have suspended testing on this for a while, waiting for Leo to get ROW updated for patch 1.4. Unless (as I hope and pray) we get some really good news about his condition and recovery from his latest setback pretty soon, however, I may go ahead and load up what ROW updates we do have and get back to work on this in a few days and see if it's still needed.

[Sailor Steve]

I like #2 myself, and yet they seemed to me to represent different sea states. Is the sea the same in both? Two reminded me of the feel I actually experienced at sea; but on the other hand that was way back before a lot of folks here were even born, so I may be adding something that wasn't really there.

Sorry, though; neither one made me feel remotely 'Urpy'.:sunny:

[Capt. Shark Bait]

went with 2. now, can someone hand me the dramamine?:doh:

[EAGLE_01]

Just looked at #2 again, and again, EFFIN' INCREDIBLE. Hope everything is going ok for everyone. Thanks for all your work on making this sim the best ever. Hope everything is going ok....:up: :up: :up:

[Sailor Steve]

a 300 foot sub is not going to pitch much Depends on the weather. Here's a video posted by Oberon, which shows a carrier easily twice that long having a little difficulty. Starting at 2:00.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=740816&postcount=31

[edit] How weird, it's a different one now. Originally it showed a bunch of WW2 clips, including big ships in bad weather.

Never mind.

[Sirten Deth]

:cool: If you are looking for eye candy No2 is better but for more reality No1 is better for the sea conditions used. I lived & worked on the ocean for 25 years I do know a little about what it is like. For those seas, relativly short choppy waves, a boat displacing 1500 tons or so and being as narrow as a sub would not react quick enough to pitch very much. For the most part it would just cut through the waves making it a wet deck. A shorter vessel with more beam & the same displacment would pitch more. If the conditions were less wind with a long lazy swell it woud pitch more. But the roll looked pretty good though I could not reallly tell AoB of the waves. But for in game WHO CARES. This is, after all, for fun. True ? :rock:

[Doolittle81]

I had the sub sitting off the island All Engines Stopped in what appeared to be relatively calm waters.....Would a real sub roll as much as seen here? (A distant view, but you'll get the idea of the Roll):
http://files.filefront.com/SubAmbush+IslandXvidavi/;9391889;/fileinfo.html

[panthercules]

I had the sub sitting off the island All Engines Stopped in what appeared to be relatively calm waters.....Would a real sub roll as much as seen here? (A distant view, but you'll get the idea of the Roll):
http://files.filefront.com/SubAmbush+IslandXvidavi/;9391889;/fileinfo.html

I'm not sure - I've noticed in previous testing that before I started tweaking on it I was getting what seemed like some pretty pronounced rolling action at dead stop in port in light winds (5m/s) - it generally calmed down a bit once I got underway, which seemed somewhat reasonable to me as I figured the boat probably would get more stable once at speed, but it did bother me a little as it seemed too pronounced for the relatively calm sea state. I think I was on to something that had promise for dampening the roll a bit, but that was before the 1.4 patch and the latest ROW changes so I'll have to check all this stuff again to see how those things may have changed the behaviors in question.

It will probably take me a few days to shake off the depression and get back in the mood, as well as to finish loading up all the mod changes that occurred since I left for vacation over the Holidays so as to get a good test bed going again, but I suppose that it's about time to pick back up with this testing now that Leo's gone. I will miss his input and encouragement on this, as on so many things around here.

[ATR-42]

a 300 foot sub is not going to pitch much Depends on the weather.
Very good point Steve. My life long experience is offshore fishing in the atlantic on a boat thats only 50' long. Which is a bit off from a sub ;) but i try and relate
that said.....

I can barely imagine the seas that I read about that knock containers off container ships, and that must be an incredible sight to see. Not to mention a carrier getting tossed around like a top, amazing.

The max winds SH4 will generate is 15 meters per second, thats roughly a 30 knot wind. I've fished many seas in 30 knot winds, im sure a lot of members here have water experience with those winds as well that can chime in. This is a complete guesstimate but id have to say with 30 knot winds a typical sea you will see is right around 10-12' (maybe 15'?). (someone please correct, me im estimating)

thats a guess and im just putting this out for discussion.

For accuracy I feel like the roll pitch behavior should reflect a 12' sea to a 300' sub, which i dont think is going to be anything too bad, i would suspect similar to video number two.

I really think Dave got it very close to where it should be with his latest ROW release as well.

I am looking forward to see what comes of this work that Panthercules is working on here.

[Sailor Steve]

I had the sub sitting off the island All Engines Stopped in what appeared to be relatively calm waters.....Would a real sub roll as much as seen here? (A distant view, but you'll get the idea of the Roll):
http://files.filefront.com/SubAmbush+IslandXvidavi/;9391889;/fileinfo.html
That seems excessive to me, but you say "relatively calm". If you look at some of the film clips of ships in storms, the water actually looks "relatively calm". What was the wind speed when you tested?

@ATR-42: I'm used to SH3 and the 'Big Waves' mod, which makes the sea twice as high as the in-game wind speed would indicate, so the maximum speed now approximates 30 m/s, or 60+ knots. It gives a lot more variation.

As for SH4, I still haven't been able to play it, so I have no real feel for what's going on in the game.

[LukeFF]

The max winds SH4 will generate is 15 meters per second, thats roughly a 30 knot wind. I've fished many seas in 30 knot winds, im sure a lot of members here have water experience with those winds as well that can chime in. This is a complete guesstimate but id have to say with 30 knot winds a typical sea you will see is right around 10-12' (maybe 15'?). (someone please correct, me im estimating)

Yep, that's pretty close. According to the Beaufort Scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale) a 15 m/s wind equates to roughly 13-19-foot waves.