View Full Version : How to manually input range?
I searched through the forums, but can't find an answer to this one:
How do I set the range dial on the TDC without using the stadimeter? When I first make contact on a target, I get a rough idea of course and speed, from which I can also get AOB. I can set those manually in the TDC. What I would then like to do is set a distance (say 10,000 yards) when the convoy first comes in to visual range, and start the position keeper. That way I could manuever and keep track of when I need to be popping up the scope to refine my solution. Another situation is when the sea state is too high, so I need to guess the range using the scope marks instead of trying to use the stadimeter between waves.
The problem is that on the range dial, all I can set is the mast height. And that doesn't help me because I can't use the stadimeter on a target that I can't really see yet. I haven't been able to figure out how to set the actual range. Am I missing something?
Fincuan
11-14-07, 07:24 AM
You can always lock the ship you want(you must do this to get the stadimeter to work), then use the stadimeter to get the range. In this case, insted of lining the waterline of the ghost image to the mast of the real one, you look at the range dial on the right and then adjust the range by moving the ghost image up and down until the dial points at the correct range. Then you send it to the TDC as usual. Note that you don't need to identify the ship, any preset mast height will do since you won't be looking at the periscope anyway.
Rockin Robbins
11-14-07, 07:46 AM
Ok, this may be confusing so I'll post some screenshots. There seems to be a limitation of setting for a max of 1100 yards manually. I think if you're shooting from beyond that you need to rethink your attack, but some like to shoot from extreme range. They are the ones wondering why they miss their targets...:88)
When you pop up the range portion of the TDC, on the right hand dial there is a clear plastic triangle that has the crosshair on it. You can grab that and manually move it to the range you want. It looks like you can go to 1300 yards but it will only move to 1100. Make sure you hit the send range/bearing button after you do.
Pictures at 11!
Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate any help with this.
Allow me to clarify...
You can always lock the ship you want
Fincuan, what I'm trying to do is set a range when I can't lock onto a ship (for example, I'm too far away or the sea state is too high). I agree and use your approach to arbitrarily set a range by moving the stadimeter, but this won't work if I can't lock onto a target.
When you pop up the range portion of the TDC, on the right hand dial there is a clear plastic triangle that has the crosshair on it. You can grab that and manually move it to the range you want. It looks like you can go to 1300 yards but it will only move to 1100.
RR, I think you're having the same problem because what you're doing is moving the mast height setting, which rotates the range dial, but I'd like to see screenshots to be sure. What I want to do is grap the range dial myself and rotate it to any range (beyond 1100) (Think SH3 TDC, which allows me to set a range manually). And I'm not shooting from that distance, just setting up my attack. The advantage to me would be I could go deep for a while, then know when to surface because the PK is giving me updates. Does that make any sense?
Thanks again, keep the ideas coming.
There is a strange behavior with that range dial. Without using the stadimeter at all you can go up to 1100 yards by just selecting that thing on the outer edge and moving it. You will probably need to set it, send the data to TDC, see what range you really picked, and adjust it. In other words, the granularity on that input dial is pretty coarse.
Then, you need to use the stadimeter as already described earlier to go beyond 1100 yards, which invariably happens as you typically start tracking from a fair distance. However, you are now in another "range" of that input dial, and you can't go below 1100 manually. So you'd have to use the stadimeter again to get into that section.
That happens because you may want to verify your settings periodically, and when you want to go back below 1100 it's time to fiddle with the stadimeter.
It's all very quirky and annoying. It's fun fiddling with all this while trying to line up a shot on a fast ship.
Powerthighs
11-14-07, 02:02 PM
As RR indicates, you can't turn the range dial itself. If you grab the outer dial (the mast height indicator), you can twist it around to get a ranges up to about 1100 yards.
If you need farther than that and can't get the stadimeter to work (which is annoying, the stadimeter should work even if you don't have a ship locked), you are screwed.
That's another annoying thing with that stadimeter. I mean, why would anyone want to set a range arbitrarily on empty ocean air?
Rockin Robbins
11-14-07, 06:13 PM
Ok, this here is the manual range input seminar where y'all are gonna learn to abuse the equipment even more than the Dick O'Kane tactic. Let's take a look at the right dial of the TDC, where all the input takes place. First press the range button to select range and bearing. Usually the next thing you do would be to push the stadimeter button.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Manual%20TDC%20Range/SH4Img14-11-2007_75722_242-1.jpgThere we go. The pointer is aimed at the clear plastic with the indicator line on it. We can grab it with the mouse and rotate it to set the range. Here it is set to 1200 yards. Just release and hit the red send range/bearing button to send the range to the TDC. DON'T FORGET YOU ARE ALSO SENDING THE BEARING YOUR PERISCOPE IS POINTING TO RIGHT NOW!!!!!! You have been warned. If you get burned, blame Ducimus. If you like it, send your tuition to me.
Rockin Robbins
11-14-07, 06:26 PM
That's another annoying thing with that stadimeter. I mean, why would anyone want to set a range arbitrarily on empty ocean air?
Setting the range lets you see a projected torpedo on the attack map screen. It really doesn't matter what the range is, although I usually set for about 1000 yards. With the Dick O'Kane attack method you set your torpedo bearing a long time before you ever see a ship. You check that by looking on the attack screen and seeing if the torpedo is going to head out in the correct direction.
Let's say the target is making 7 knots and is approaching from the left. We're at right angles to the track. We'll set up the speed on the TDC for 7 knots. Then we'll set the periscope at the bearing where we want to shoot, in this case the lead angle will be just under 10º, so we'll set up our aiming angle to 350º. Aim the perisocope to that bearing. Then go to the TDC and manually set a range (1000 yards seems like a fine number!). Press the send range/bearing button. Now you can check the attack screen and see the torpedo track going out at about 358º. That's what we want, a right angle track to the target, which is the most error tolerant track. We're ready to shoot and haven't seen the ship yet except on radar!
Now all we have to do is get a decent distance from the track and point the periscope at 350º. When the juicy parts of the ship go by the crosshairs, press the trigger. That spot on the boat is exactly where the torpedoes will hit.
See the whole seminar complete with screenshots at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67.
So, why would you ever want to set range manually at a spot in the empty ocean? To sink the enemy!:up:
I'm not sure, but I think we're missing the point of the question.
I think he's asking (and if not, I am... this is something I have wanted to do on several occasions but haven't been able to figure out) how to set the range to some specific number without using the stadimeter - which requires that the target be in sight and locked.
Why would you want to do this? For me the main applicaiton would be when using RADAR on a dark night and/or in heavy fog. I can see the target on the screen, use the map to approximate the distance accurately enough, and take various marks over time to get speed and heading. I can then manually input the target speed, bearing and AoB, but with no way to input the range I can't generate a firing solution.
I should be able to do this, no?
JD
THE_MASK
11-14-07, 07:45 PM
Its in the manual , page 35
Fincuan
11-14-07, 07:50 PM
Yes you should be able to do it, but since SH4 doesn't directly allow it, you have to use the stadimeter, the sonar or turn the range wheel manually(goes up to 4000 meters with metric system btw).
edit: Page 35 is about the stadimeter, which doesn't help in this case. Page 36 tells you how to calculate the range manually, but still the above three ways are the only ones to actually input the range to the TDC.
I'm not sure, but I think we're missing the point of the question.
I think he's asking (and if not, I am... this is something I have wanted to do on several occasions but haven't been able to figure out) how to set the range to some specific number without using the stadimeter - which requires that the target be in sight and locked.JD
Yes JD, that is exactly my question. I can do this in SH3, but not in SH4. Thanks for saying it clearly. Maybe some clever modder can fix this (or perhaps it will surprise us in 1.4).
Its in the manual , page 35
My manual shows ship IDs for two gunboats and a sampan on page 35. Maybe you've got a better manual with your version. That's OK, because my manual is a good coaster to keep my desk clean of coffee rings.:lol:
Fincuan
11-14-07, 08:32 PM
Yes JD, that is exactly my question. I can do this in SH3, but not in SH4. Thanks for saying it clearly. Maybe some clever modder can fix this (or perhaps it will surprise us in 1.4).
ok, once more: In Sh3 you have direct control over the tdc inputs, and thus can set the values to anything you like by simply turning the wheels. You can't do that in SH4. In SH4 you have direct control over only aob and speed. Range can only be set via on of these methods: Stadimeter, turning the range wheel manually(only values between ~200 and 4000 meters) and sonar. That's it, and there's currently no way to set the range via a simple wheel like could be done in SH3.
Rockin Robbins
11-14-07, 08:48 PM
Actually being limited to under 1300 yards for manual setting on imperial measurements is no problem. If you're shooting from outside 1300 yards with conventional targeting methods you're too far away (I like to be under 800 yards). If you're using the Dick O'Kane technique you don't care what the range is anyway because it isn't a targeting parameter.
Part of effective shooting is extreme error tolerance, especially in a convoy that is scattering. You have to assume that your setup isn't right and be close enough so that whatever error you have is within the allowable tolerance. I've taken shots from 500 yards because I knew my setup was lousy. BOOM! anyway.:up:
Actually being limited to under 1300 yards for manual setting on imperial measurements is no problem. If you're shooting from outside 1300 yards with conventional targeting methods you're too far away (I like to be under 800 yards).
RR, you are correct that the ability to set long ranges on the TDC is not an issue for firing (I would rarely waste a fish at more than 1000 yards). However, that is not what I'm trying to do, so this limitation is a problem for me and I think it's unrealistic that we're unable to directly enter a target range into the TDC (like I can in SH1, SH2, and SH3).
I am wanting to use the position keeper to track the target from long range. Say for example, I could put in a range of 8000 yards plus the AOB and speed. I could enter that data into the TDC and turn on the PK. Then I could go deep and quiet until the escorts have passed, and know when the best time would be to return to periscope depth to finalize my solution before firing.
Anyway, thanks to all of you for your comments. You answered my question -
ok, once more: In SH3 you have direct control over the tdc inputs, and thus can set the values to anything you like by simply turning the wheels. You can't do that in SH4.
That's what I figured, but I was hoping I had overlooked something.
Rockin Robbins
11-15-07, 07:31 AM
Actually being limited to under 1300 yards for manual setting on imperial measurements is no problem. If you're shooting from outside 1300 yards with conventional targeting methods you're too far away (I like to be under 800 yards).
RR, you are correct that the ability to set long ranges on the TDC is not an issue for firing (I would rarely waste a fish at more than 1000 yards). However, that is not what I'm trying to do, so this limitation is a problem for me and I think it's unrealistic that we're unable to directly enter a target range into the TDC (like I can in SH1, SH2, and SH3).
I am wanting to use the position keeper to track the target from long range. Say for example, I could put in a range of 8000 yards plus the AOB and speed. I could enter that data into the TDC and turn on the PK. Then I could go deep and quiet until the escorts have passed, and know when the best time would be to return to periscope depth to finalize my solution before firing.
Anyway, thanks to all of you for your comments. You answered my question -
ok, once more: In SH3 you have direct control over the tdc inputs, and thus can set the values to anything you like by simply turning the wheels. You can't do that in SH4.
That's what I figured, but I was hoping I had overlooked something.
Another thing tht would be really good would be direct input from radar to TDC, just like you can from sonar.
For those who don't get what he's wanting to do, he's either read Dick O'Kane or channeling him (play the spooky music). When you're jetting from position to position with the scope down on an approach, when you slow down and raise the scope your first question is "did he zig?" If you can enter the parameters into the TDC and turn the PK on, the TDC predicts exactly where he is supposed to be (given no changes in course and speed) when you poke the scope up. You can set bearing even before the scope breaks the surface to minimize exposure. Then if he isn't where predicted, he's zigged! Since the stadimeter is lousy for distant measurements, the manual range input is really helpful here. Did I get it right?
Did I get it right?
Bingo! :yep: (except for the channeling part - :huh: )
That's another annoying thing with that stadimeter. I mean, why would anyone want to set a range arbitrarily on empty ocean air?
Setting the range lets you see a projected torpedo on the attack map screen. It really doesn't matter what the range is, although I usually set for about 1000 yards.
I was being sarcastic, sorry I didn't make that clear, but the comments following were still interesting. Now I need to figure out (that is, really understand) why this is true. Because without pondering it, it seems counterintuitive.
Now, I've been using the O'Kane method. So in my best attacks I've pointed the ship at the target's track, and I've set the periscope at 0 degrees. I enter a range (with any requisite fiddling needed) to the target's projected track in front of me (along the 0-degree path). I enter the AOB at that point, too, which has been about 90-degrees (port or starboard). I enter the speed. It seems to have worked so far, so if I increase the range it seems that my gyro angle would end up being larger, to make up the extra distance?
In other words, it seems that I need to get the range right. At least for the way I'm doing it. I get a couple of checks on the target's path to ensure my range will be good. Am I doing the O'Kane method, or am I doing some Jazman method? I shoot fish as the juicy parts of the ship cross the periscope crosshairs.
A nice variation would seem to be to run parallel to the ship, and point the periscope at 90-degrees (or 270, depending on direction) so I can bring rear fish to bear, good for convoy attacking. Is this right?
That's another annoying thing with that stadimeter. I mean, why would anyone want to set a range arbitrarily on empty ocean air?
Setting the range lets you see a projected torpedo on the attack map screen. It really doesn't matter what the range is, although I usually set for about 1000 yards.
I was being sarcastic, sorry I didn't make that clear, but the comments following were still interesting. Now I need to figure out (that is, really understand) why this is true. Because without pondering it, it seems counterintuitive.
Rockin Robbins has explained this to me quite satisfactorily. It has to be a right triangle in the targeting solution. When I work out the equation to figure out a gyro angle, I notice that it has nothing to do with range, but only the speed of the target, the speed of the torpedo, and the gyro angle, and the time to travel (which cancels out).
( X seconds ) x ( TorpSpeed yds/sec ) x ( sin(GyroAngle) ) = ( X seconds ) x ( ShipSpeed yds/sec)
Where X is the time to travel to hit. Range doesn't appear in the equation! (A diagram would help.)
sin(GyroAngle) = TorpSpeed / ShipSpeed
And with my calculator, it's easy to find GyroAngle.
So from my misses on my missions, I may not have been mis-estimating the range, but the angle on bow. (and / or the speed.) I was being a bit sloppy with the AOB, just eyeballing it.
For a non-right triangle, I can see the range is in there, and can't get cancelled out. (I'm looking at the laws of sines and cosines, is that right?) I see why I need a TDC to figure out the Gyro angle for me...
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