Cold war anyone??

[Bulkhead]

A vote on this site its a question of what the next Silent Hunter series would be.
And the question is what era the game should be about. The cold war.

Say if the game was to be made, What would the missions be like? "Follow that sub sir". Or something like: mission objectives, spy on a russian missile sub.

To make a game like this interresting to play i think is difficult. alot more parameters is needed.

During the cold war there was no shooting of torpedoes or anything, they just followed ecthother.

In short: the cold war was no real "war"!! Get my point??

All of this is from my point of wiev, feel free to have a totally other meaning about it.

I would love to know what you guys think would make a game like that fun and interresting to play

[Rockin Robbins]

Backgammon, poker and foosball in the crew's lounge.

[Captain Vlad]

I think to keep most people's interest you'd almost have to have a hypothetical war situation.

It might, however, be possible to have several hypothetical war scenarios to involve yourself in, from a limited war around some Soviet or US client state to full-blown WWIII. I might also be possible to have the option to start a career during peacetime, and war starting at some random point during...you might get in a patrol or two doing peacetime stuff before the balloon goes up.

If anyone remembers F-19 Stealth Fighter, it had options for 'Cold War' scenarios, which were the same, objective wise, as most of the open war assignements, but were scored differently. You no longer recieved points for destroying oppurtunity targets, you recieved them for remaining undetected by the enemy. Peacetime missions for a Cold War SH V could use similar logic, with higher renown rewards for doing whatever it is you're doing and no one spotting you.

The possibilities for historical scenarios are great. Trips under the North Pole and such.

I do hope that if Ubi-Soft decided to do such a thing, they put the era in the '50's and early '60's. GUPPY conversions, early nuke boats, and new-build diesel submarines of the era are far more interesting to me than more current stuff, which has had it's time in simulation sun many times anyway.

[Powerthighs]

F-19 Stealth Fighter was the bomb.

One awesome aspect: If you were empty of ordinance and low on fuel, you could go up to 30,000 feet, turn off your engines, and maintain level flight.

That allowed you to trade fuel for weapons in your loadout.

[Captain Vlad]

If I get onto a 'they don't make 'em like they used to' rant, F-19 is inevitably one of the games I mention.

It's also the reason I can still recognize portions of the Libyan and Iranian coastlines if they're 'flashcarded' to me.

[Q3ark]

Backgammon, poker and foosball in the crew's lounge.

oh oh oh do you think this could be modded into SH4 :p

[Rockin Robbins]

Backgammon, poker and foosball in the crew's lounge.
oh oh oh do you think this could be modded into SH4 :p

With a full load of 24 torpedoes, there's not enough room for the foosball table, even in a Balao, unless you take the radars out of the conning tower or the stove out of the galley. Admiral Lockwood denied both requests.

[swdw]

Yep, you'd need a war of some kind. Tailing a soviet alpha ( or a chinese type 93 these days) does not hold the same tension it does in real life. Neither does playing an agressor boat with your own people or getting close enough to the coast to pick up radio traffic for your onboard spooks. Just not the same . . .

Red Storm Rising was fun because you had to fight. Not many people toaday would buy into a US / Russian confrontation considering the condition of the Russian Navy. A fictional confrontation set in the past would not draw a whole lot of users. Nowadays you'd have to call it "Dragon rising", put it 20 years in the future against a Chinese fleet much larger than they have today. (And make no mistake, unless something changes, there will be a day we will be faced with this option. The Chinese are even more patient than the desert people, and they want Taiwan back- regardless of what they say publicly. They have been quoted as saying the biggest barrier to them moving into Taiwan is the US Navy. That one sentence explains their current building program.)

[TDK1044]

I think to keep most people's interest you'd almost have to have a hypothetical war situation.


I think it's entirely possible that with the addition of the expansion pack for Silent Hunter 4, Ubisoft may close the book on the Silent Hunter series for now and choose to create a hypothetical modern day war sim as its next offering.

To the casual gamer, this would be much more attractive than revisiting WWII once again, and prior to WWII, there is not enough to interest the largest section of the game buying demographic.

So, in my opinion, I don't think we'll see Silent Hunter 5 any time soon, but I do think we may see a good modern day Naval sim.

[:FI:Rabitski]

Well the market is wide open for a modern sub sim, with the graphic's of SH-4. Also no sim at the moment (that I know of) includes the latest AIP subs, so with that in mind and knowing UBI it more then likely won't happen:D . They could still make money out of SH 4 though by including add-on's, say to include US PT-boat's or playable RN - IJN subs.

[tonibamestre]

Yeah, I give my vote for the modern age.A start could be the early Cold Era,followed by addons till reaching nowadays.
Have a look at Fighter Ops page and think about their filosophy.Something like that could be done touching the Naval theme,dont you think so?

[mrbeast]

I think that the most promising areas that UBI colud exploit for another subsim would be either WWI or a modern 'what if' simulation.

I can see several problems with doing a Cold War era sim. For a start, unlike WWII which was rather convienient length, the Cold War lasted for decades. This raises the question of when do you set the sim? 40's/ 50's? 60's? 70's? 80's? Any historial missions are going to involve surviellance, agent drops and the like, maybe lifeguard duties, all the missions that most people seem to find a bit of a drag.

[Captain Vlad]

[quote=Captain Vlad]
I think it's entirely possible that with the addition of the expansion pack for Silent Hunter 4, Ubisoft may close the book on the Silent Hunter series for now and choose to create a hypothetical modern day war sim as its next offering.

Probably so. Shame, though, as I think an 'early Cold War' era game could be fun...hypothetical conflicts do, after all, have the advantage of the devs being able to do whatever they wish when it comes to challenge progression.

[Roger Dodger]

Cold War Era Subsim? Where's the drama? Tracking a Soviet Sub around the 7 seas just won't 'do it' for me. Its boring enough in SH4 taking over an hour game time just to get 'on station'.

After WWII, war ceased to be 'fun'. All push-button, SONAR guided/wire guided/RADAR guided, ASROCs and other missiles - in other words: B-O-R-I-N-G (all caps).

Sorry to be so negative, but the Cold War was boring beyond belief (at least as far as a Subsim).

On the positive, there have been a number of books written about Cold War Clandestine operations that are at least worth a READ (remember books?). My personal favorites were written by Patrick Robinson, and all are available on AudioBook form (cassette or CD).

List of Patrick Robinson Titles (* = I've personally read, ** = presently on order from the library)

* Nimitz Class
* Kilo Class
* H.M.S. Unseen
U.S.S. Seawolf
** Ghost Force
* Hunter Killer
** Barracuda 945
* The Shark Mutiny

Subject Keywords:
Submarines - Fiction
Hijacking of Ships - Fiction
Terrorism - Fiction

I just hope Osama doesn't read any of the above - it might give him 'ideas'.

[Bulkhead]

Thanks guys, i still think there is alot of interessting aspect combined with a little modification to some of the historical accuracy, there could be fun to play. But it would be difficult to make.

It could work with something like silent hunter 2 and destroyer command. The way the two games could be played against echother...

Example: Submarine trying to do a mission at the same time trying to hide from frigates and destroyers looking for it. In this case the surface ships is also human playable as the subs.
To make the game total, maybe there could be torpedo or sonarboy dropping aircraft, or some other kind of aircraft....

Long story short: Several games based on the same platform and connected to the same multiplayer room.

I havent thought of the singelplayer side of it in the writing moment

[peanuts111358]

I am not sure a Cold War setting would have much gameplay value. I know it wouldn't get my attention.

What I do know would get my attention is SH5 with a dynamic campaign, where us virtual skippers would determine how the campaign ended by our actions and performance. For example, if we messed up on a big mission it would tip the scale in favor of the enemy AI winning the campaign. Likewise, if we performed our mission flawlessly, it would tip the scale in favor of the player winning the campaign.

I know SH4 prides itself in being historically accurate (and I like that it is as well), but in some ways it limits the gameplay value. I feel that in order for a dynamic campaign to work within SH4 (or possibly a SH5 at some point in the future), there would have to be a fictional campaign and many fictional missions within that campaign.

Some ideas that come to mind for possible missions within a dynamic campaign are:

- Have the campaign start out by searching for and sinking enemy merchant ships.
- Next mission would be to sink some enemy warships.
- Search for enemy AI submarines where Intel suspects some may be patrolling.
- Seek and destroy enemy AI submarines with a couple friendly AI submarines by your side.
- Whats this? An unprovoked attack against Iraqi submarines? (remember this is pure fiction). Russia takes issue with this and joins forces with Iraq against the US (Allies).
- Deliver a spy into enemy territory to help gather intel and learns that Russia has many nuclear submarines on standby ready for action (with conventional weapons only. No nuke weapons in campaign).
- Next mission could be to locate exactly where the Russian submarines are and report info to Allied HQ.
- Got orders to seek and destroy as many Russian submarines as possible, along with a fleet of friendly AI submarines that are on mission with you.
- Got orders to destroy a hardened target inland so you send a cruise missile to do the job for you.
- Deliver a navy seal team close to enemy front lines to help fight the good fight.
- Allied HQ learns that your spy got discovered by the enemy and they are treating him inhumanely (sp).
- Send a clear messege to the enemy by way of a barrage of cruise missiles that their actions will not be tolerated.
- Enemy AI submarines get close enough to US to cause damage.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point. Keep in mind also that friendly AI can plant anti-sub mines to help protect our ports and whatnot. As well, the enemy AI can also plant anti-sub mines to protect their ports and whatnot.

Also, keep in mind that this is s sim, so all submarines should be modelled as accurately as possible to the real thing in how they perform and weapons they can carry and whatnot.

[u-168]

got to have crew sleeping quarters and captins lounge crew lounge and be able to walk through the engine and torpedo rooms so you can get a proper feel for what them guys went through:yep:



u-168

[Kodaita]

I hear so many people talking about the cold war being boring. Well if they did make a cold war game, it would be a fictional war simulation. I can't see them saying here's a full subsim, but you'll never fire a real warshot (but of we do let you fire some pratcie torps down in the carib :D) As for lack of drama, lol. I think cold war could have more drama. The ending of the war could be affected by you, make sure you find and sink that Yankee class SSBN before she launches. Imagine working your way in on a convoy, unloading your fish, then not only evading the escorts, their helos, but also a couple Victor class attacks subs. The thermal layer isn't as good when there's an ememy sub down there with you and your still trying to reload. There was an old Sega Genesis game called 688 Attack Sub and it was a fictional war between the US and USSR taking place in the 80s or early 90s. It was a great game and I had plenty of tense moments in it.

I would love to see a WWI sim as well, but I have a feeling that it wouldn't sell nearly as well as a WWII sim. I mean cmon, how many WWI games do you see compared to WWII? People just don't get as excited about WWI. Both the WWII games have done well, but I think UBI will try something new with the next one.

[Bulkhead]

got to have crew sleeping quarters and captins lounge crew lounge and be able to walk through the engine and torpedo rooms so you can get a proper feel for what them guys went through:yep:



u-168


That would be great to go in to the other compartments:rock: :rock:

[Torplexed]

The reason I've never been able to warm up to the Cold War is there isn't the actual history of shots being fired in anger. You can come up with hypothetical scenarios, but they tend to just be speculation at best Let's say the War in the Pacific between 1941 and 1945 never happened, but someone tried to write it up ficitionally as alternative history. Working just from data could they have ever predicted the shocking triple defectiveness of US submarine torpedoes?...the abysmal state of Japanese merchant protection throughout most of the war? A battle like Midway or the Coral Sea where neither side saw the other's ships was even a mental stretch before the war. Actual combat exposes interesting defects and faults and surprises that a hypothetical scenario never can.

[GoldenRivet]

yeah, i agree with a lot of the posts here.

Modern subs are deadly and spectacular machines... but except for a british sub firing at a ship in the Falklands (i believe) there were never any recorded shots fired between subs or surface ships in the cold war.

hence the reason it would be called a "COLD WAR" because it hasnt HEATED UP :rotfl:

i think janes 688i does a good job of simulating "cold war" subs. and i think a lot of your missions would focus on national security and espionage instead of massive attacks etc.

Your missions would focus on things like this

1. Insert navy seals who will interdict a drug factory in central america.

2. Exctract said navy seals.

3. Sneak into XXX port and enforce a merchant blockade

4. follow a russian or chinese SSBN from one place to another but dont shoot (boring)

5. find and attack a rogue russian or chinese sub. (skipper went crazy and wants to launch missiles)

6. find and attack a container ship carrying a stolen nuclear weapon

7. launch cruise missile strikes at someones chemical weapons plant.

basically - Jane's 688(i) with a face lift.

if you want to make a "cold war" game featuring cold war subs interesting... find a way ti turn it onto a HOT WAR. for example....

"world in conflict" was recently released and it follows an alternate reality path in 1989 as instead of the fall of the soviet union... they invade Europe and the United States in a last ditch effort to prevent the crumble of the communist governments.

you could do something similar, simulate a war that never happened... but the problem there is that a lot of historical accuracy buffs would probably not find the game appealing.

[captiandon]

Yep since WW2 there has been only one sub that ever fired on another ship. That was an English Boat and that was durring the Falklands war. I would rather stick with WW2 as It has the best. I am hoping that they do bring out U-boats for SH4 and make it a full war out of it. I would hope that the Next version would be the entire war from all sides. Maby a full naval Simulator where you can command Surface ships as well. Would love to be one of the destroyers or DE's in Taffy 6 as they fended off the Yamato and company Or be one of the Battleships crossing the T on the Japanese Fleet in Sarigo Strait's.

[Bulkhead]

I like the idea of the japanese subs, including the mighty I400 sub.

I would buy it right away!!!!

Then it would be a cool thing to link it with SH4 and fight online.

[bruges]

forget cold war, present day conflicts are beter. virginia class! http://en.wikivisual.com/images/6/69/USS_Virginia.jpg

[Bulkhead]

Wow...King of the seas. Seawolf??

[bruges]

someone should model in modern subs in sh4 ;)

[mrbeast]

How about a nice Astute class SSN hot off the slips?

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3440/10submarinevz9.jpg

[Kapitan]

I dont often post in here but i noticed the title and cold war seems a good era to model.

subsims differ alot because they cater for two diffrent types of people the people who want action and lots of it then you have the silent hunter series, for people like me who just like completing set goals theres sub command and dangerous waters.

People who think that following another submarine is boring well yes it can be if the submarine stays in one dead straightline all the time, but the submarine moves about wildly and will keep you on your toes, whats more a modern subsim will demand a higher knowlege of weapons and weapon systems and sensors than SH3 and 4.

Now i am not saying SH3 and 4 are crap they are very good sims i own both but i do prefer the Sub command and DW games rather than the old SH3 and 4.

Reason i prefer achieveing goals than sinking masses of ships even though i can easily do this on DW with a 688i and blast about 70 ships to bits.

What alot of people dont realise is that doing a harbour creep can turn nasty bear in mind your going into another countrys property if your caught then theres two ways it can go, they force you to surface and surrender (as they did with USS Gudgeon) or just sink you.
It is alot harder to do a harbour creep with a nuke at slow speeds in shallow waters than to line up for a shot in SH3/4 reason the boat is about 3 times the size of the U boats.

So it depends on your personal taste so dont just shout down people who like cold war missions where your "doing nothing"

Also the only nuclear submarine to sink a ship in anger was the HMS Conquorer under the command of captain christopher Wreaford Brown in 1982 during the falklands war.

[missleman01]

I wouldnt mind being able to drive Nautilus, Skate, or even a Skipjack......

Perhaps a mixture of peacetime boomer hunting and spying, nor pole missions (Nautilus or other) and a campaign based on a whatif of Cuba in 1962.......If you played russian i can already see your first mission being onboard a Foxtrot escorting Merchants....

From there a nice battle of the atlantic in a Skipjack, Nautilus, Guppies, Foxtrots, Novembers or similar would be a blast.

Ai of russian Bears, US PV2 Neptunes, Gearing Destroyers, S-2 Trackers etc... would be amazing.

It would also introduce some new sensor techologies and nuclear power while having that only slightly evolved from WWII feel.

[Bum]

I don't think there is any way ubisoft could make a cold war subsim anywhere as well as Dangerous Waters. A cold war subsim by its nature is not eyeballs on the target easy stuff, its very intense and mentally challenging. Which translated to BORING to many people. If ubisoft tried to move the SH series to the modern era, it would be more arcade than Silent Hunter players are used to.

[Kapitan]

Modern subsims are about tactics how to best evade the enamy and how not to get spotted, i have the luxury of being able to stay down indefinatly and also dive one heck of alot deeper than a WW2 sub could ever go.

I prefer playing the russian side of things so my natural attack submarine would be an akula i can dive to 575 meters (660 in Sub command) and go at a speed of 33 to 35 knots.

yes we have all that advantage and thats what screams to people buy the game because the though of a submarine doing just 7 knots well i be dammed if id sit there waiting for it to get from A to B in a week, well the reality is SH series is based on a real event DW is not we can make our own what if missions and our own games.

In this SH4 game would you realistically sit there for two hours trying to find your opponent? you want action right away. DW is not like that.

I personally prefer commanding Boomers (SSBN's) why because im not into aggressive play id rather people hunt me and i avoid, you play against a convoy of AI ships i play against a human submarine in some cases which makes the SH series fairly predictable.

For example if a merchant mad spots you then you know he will zig zag and try to evade you, in DW if im spotted the frigate will stay on corse for me its useless for him to zig zag as my wire guided torps will eventually hit him or he would be over come by missiles unless im taken out by helo first.

The thing is you have to visually make contact with your enamy i dont, i can find a merchant man or even a warship hundreds of miles away making it harder for them to find me because i have plenty of warning of where they are, not only that my missiles have ranges that exceed even my best torpedos.

With SH3 its more skill in lining up to target in DW its more tactic orientated.

[Bulkhead]

Oh my... When I`m started this thread I didnt think there would be this mutch discussion and different opinions, but...hey:ping: Its great reading. Very interresting.

Personally I like the cold war era subject in all, there are so mutch potencial and its a very big "book". (you got the idea of "book"? My english isnt too good. Explaining difficulties)
Anyway...I hope UBI, or somone else for that matter, make a "cold war" subsim..:)
I like cold, its what we`re used to in Norway.:lost:

[Kapitan]

Only thing readily availible for cold war era is Sub command when using the SCXIIc mods you can drive alot of old and new platforms such as the Novembers permits sturgeon and what have yout, alot of what if mission cold war era have been made too.

[Hitman]

I agree about the cold war era having its fun. Though not spectacular in terms of sinkings, explosions and such (Less shooting and anyway you almost never see anything else of the enemy than a dot in the 2D sonar/radar screen), it has its very interesting points. Tactics, stealth and caution as well as very difficult decissions (Shoot or not shoot) in dubtious situations are also great for gameplay purposes. I personally would like to see a cold war era sim that spans from the Korea conflict using diesel boats to the first nukes. I would like to drive a converted Guppy or a soviet diesel in Korea conflict, and the first nukes in the Vietnam era. Since campaigns are not equal in the cold war era as in WW2 (Cold war era "campaigns" are just a set of interrelated missions in the frame of an operation) it would be just a matter of having lots of them, in the different decades covered.

Oh, and the fact that we do NOT know if there really were some shooting exchanged in some heated situations doesn't mean there were none of them in real life ;)