[REQ] All in one "game flaw" patch

[Webster]

i think it would be very helpfull to have a single stand alone repair fix for all the "game flaws".

it should not be part of any other mod or include any mods so it stays as a pure "game fix".

to me a mod is a game tweak to make it to your liking so i dont call game fixes "mods" and i think game fixes should make the game work better not change the game play. changing the game play is the guideline i would use to draw the line between what should or shouldnt go into the game fix patch. if it changes the game difficulty then its a mod because that is what mods are designed to do.

it is very hard to draw the line between fixing errors in the way things work and fixing things that just work incorrectly. fixing the dc to work correctly will change the difficulty of the game but is it a fix or a mod or both? the dc were working the way the should, the damage they caused was just way off. the same goes for the indestructable DD when hit by torpedo to the bow. something like these i would call a "game fix" because it is making the game work the way it should have from the beginning and not trying to enhance realism or make the game easier.

i would like to see a game patch to fix these type issues that were left unrepaired by the ubisoft devs. so it gives everyone the best working base stock game as a starting point for playing and also for modding. these would be installed by everyone since they arent "mods" they are really a game fix. assuming that everyone was using this "game fix" then all mods being created would work with them.

i dont think anyone has taken the time to collect all the game fixes into one patch yet but i think it would be a great benefit to the membership.

[leovampire]

i think it would be very helpfull to have a single stand alone repair fix for all the "game flaws".

it should not be part of any other mod or include any mods so it stays as a pure "game fix".

to me a mod is a game tweak to make it to your liking so i dont call game fixes "mods" and i think game fixes should make the game work better not change the game play. changing the game play is the guideline i would use to draw the line between what should or shouldnt go into the game fix patch. if it changes the game difficulty then its a mod because that is what mods are designed to do.

it is very hard to draw the line between fixing errors in the way things work and fixing things that just work incorrectly. fixing the dc to work correctly will change the difficulty of the game but is it a fix or a mod or both? the dc were working the way the should, the damage they caused was just way off. the same goes for the indestructable DD when hit by torpedo to the bow. something like these i would call a "game fix" because it is making the game work the way it should have from the beginning and not trying to enhance realism or make the game easier.

i would like to see a game patch to fix these type issues that were left unrepaired by the ubisoft devs. so it gives everyone the best working base stock game as a starting point for playing and also for modding. these would be installed by everyone since they arent "mods" they are really a game fix. assuming that everyone was using this "game fix" then all mods being created would work with them.

i dont think anyone has taken the time to collect all the game fixes into one patch yet but i think it would be a great benefit to the membership.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122295

[Webster]

2 word's / USE THIS

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122295

well not to be a smart azz but USE WHAT?????????

thats a nice post with great imput but nothing was ever done about it (unless i missed the link somewhere) all i saw was comments on what needs fixing.

im talking about putting the fixes that exist today for use now into one patch or game fix and any other fixes that become usable can always be added to it.

[leovampire]

Not actual repairs made by the Developers of the game.

Am I getting this right?

If that is what you mean it isn't possable to do if it is what modders have done to fix things.

A program would have to be built to patch the game with all the mod repairs that only effect
those certain part's of the game and files and nothing else but that.

I don't think anyone other than the Dev's would be interested in that kind of undertaking.

Every single modder that did anything to repair something in the game would have to get together
and list it all in detail then a patch designer would have to put it all together and make it work in one
simple fix.

[skwasjer]

Creating a patch is not the hard work, but compiling the list of fixes and gathering/merging the data is (to a certain extend anyway). In essence you are just creating another 'combi' mod, only you'd label it as the 'unofficial patch v1.x'. It will only work if most/all modders embrace this idea though, because if some uses this as it's base and some don't, you will only end up with incompatible mods.

That said, I still think it is better to use a JSGME compatible 'base mod'. You can then always revert to the stock install, and apply a newer 'base mod', or choose for other mods that are not based on this 'base mod'. This wouldn't be possible if the game was patched (which you can't revert!). And what if Ubi decides for another patch, you'd have to reinstall the entire game...

So, the idea is ok I guess, but I wouldn't go for a patch based approach...

[Webster]

yes that is what i had in mind, but it doesnt necessarily have to be a created as a downloadable patch, what i was talking about was simply collecting all the "fixes" that werealready available and in use right now and using them to create one big fix. later as more fixes were developed then it could be revised or just listed as part b of first one.

the downloadable part is just because it would be something you would want to stay installed unlike some mods so i figured a jsgme install wasnt needed or recommended.

i have a download creating tool "install creator pro" that i use to create small file installers so i can "package" all my games into one big dvd install but otherwise i barely know how to use it lol, but it also installs its own uninstaller file. others may have something better or at least know how to fully use theirs.

[Webster]

It will only work if most/all modders embrace this idea though, because if some uses this as it's base and some don't, you will only end up with incompatible mods.

That said, I still think it is better to use a JSGME compatible 'base mod'. You can then always revert to the stock install, and apply a newer 'base mod', or choose for other mods that are not based on this 'base mod'. This wouldn't be possible if the game was patched (which you can't revert!). And what if Ubi decides for another patch, you'd have to reinstall the entire game...

So, the idea is ok I guess, but I wouldn't go for a patch based approach...

well the whole purpose it to provide game fixes not mods so their is no reason anyone would have not to use it.

after this is installed then mods could be added, the point is that this would not be a mod but a game repair.

this would not intend to change anything unless it had to in order for the game to work correctly.

[Rockin Robbins]

First we have to agree on what needs fixing. Many of the complaints about "bugs" are complaints about historically accurate recreations. Then there is that fuzzy line between bug fix and new feature.

So here's what we do (I propose refining the American presidential elections along these lines too). We rent a large football stadium and sell tickets. Two people with opposing viewpoints begin the test by deployment anywhere in the two end zones.

Scattered randomly about the field between the 30 yard lines are various weapons with only a few rounds loaded apiece. When the starting gun (how appropriate!) sounds, they run to the weapon of their choice and discharge it in the general direction of their opponent. They would then have to discard that weapon and run to another. Repeat as necessary until we have a decision. We could use anything from slingshots to bows and arrows to pistols, rifles, spears, hand grenades, RPGs, etc. Spectators who get hit have signed unconditional releases and that's why they paid the high price to watch anyway. Survivor's idea is adopted as official policy until he in turn is challenged and vanquished. Cable television pay-per-view revenue to benefit SUBSIM.

[ironkross]

First we have to agree on what needs fixing. Many of the complaints about "bugs" are complaints about historically accurate recreations. Then there is that fuzzy line between bug fix and new feature.

So here's what we do (I propose refining the American presidential elections along these lines too). We rent a large football stadium and sell tickets. Two people with opposing viewpoints begin the test by deployment anywhere in the two end zones.

Scattered randomly about the field between the 30 yard lines are various weapons with only a few rounds loaded apiece. When the starting gun (how appropriate!) sounds, they run to the weapon of their choice and discharge it in the general direction of their opponent. They would then have to discard that weapon and run to another. Repeat as necessary until we have a decision. We could use anything from slingshots to bows and arrows to pistols, rifles, spears, hand grenades, RPGs, etc. Spectators who get hit have signed unconditional releases and that's why they paid the high price to watch anyway. Survivor's idea is adopted as official policy until he in turn is challenged and vanquished. Cable television pay-per-view revenue to benefit SUBSIM.
Whoa, I must disagree on some points. No hand grenades, as they require no skill at all, and it needs to be in a Roman style coloseum with trap doors that large cats can emerge from to swipe at the two representatives. ( OK , I borrowed the idea from Gladiator , but I do agree on the pay per view revenue to SUBSIM thing.) :yep:
Your point sir is well taken, a super-fix is impossible as you will never please everyone, or even nearly everyone.

[Webster]

First we have to agree on what needs fixing. Many of the complaints about "bugs" are complaints about historically accurate recreations. Then there is that fuzzy line between bug fix and new feature.

actually there is no fine line between them, it is a big difference.

if its a "new" feature it is a mod, period. it should be done as a mod by only those who want it.

i just want things to be fixed to work correctly by this patch and after that use mods to add what you want. this is not about adding things its about fixing what is there as a stock game so it is still a purely stock game but fixed to work as it should have after 1.3

[Webster]

well there seams to be no interest in doing this so im sorry for bringing up the idea.

[leovampire]

well there seams to be no interest in doing this so im sorry for bringing up the idea.

It is not an easy task. Some of the fix's people have made are no longer around so the data is lost and some of those download's no longer exist as well for starters.

Second is finding them all for the one's that are still around. Then you should have permission from the guy's to use them like that.

Not a bd idea just can be a nightmare to coordinate. It is easier to ask the Dev's to include them in the patches they make as they have done in the past.

[swdw]

well there seams to be no interest in doing this so im sorry for bringing up the idea.
It is not an easy task. Some of the fix's people have made are no longer around so the data is lost and some of those download's no longer exist as well for starters.
Yeah, I noticed anvart's propeller fix and the torpedo bomber fix no longer show up on his filefront page . . . unless i missed them somehow.

But I think they'rincluded in some of the bigger mods.

It should also be noted for WEBSTER that Trigger Maru and Real Fleet Boats both incude most of the "fix it" mods. So the easiest way to get the fixes is to install one of these mods.

[Webster]

Yeah, I noticed anvart's propeller fix and the torpedo bomber fix no longer show up on his filefront page . . . unless i missed them somehow.

But I think they'rincluded in some of the bigger mods.

It should also be noted for WEBSTER that Trigger Maru and Real Fleet Boats both incude most of the "fix it" mods. So the easiest way to get the fixes is to install one of these mods.

there is the problem, you cant get the fixes without the mod.

i dont want any part of the mod, not even a tiny bit.

i just want the fixes only and they are becoming unavailable except as part of a large mod. and because it is part of a large mod it is made "for" that mod and may not work with other mods or with the stock game. if it were done for the stock game then all mods would work with it because the mods would make any small change needed to work.

by only packaging game fixes to work as part of other mods, the modding community is basically telling members that if you want to play SH4 stock version then you will have to play it in a broken state.

[tater]

I don't think there is no interest, but as leo said, it's daunting.

What needs fixing?

Taihosan Maru, that's a CTD, we can probably all agree on that. Jace11's akitsu maru rudder fix, just visual, but needs fixing. Ditto prop direction. Ship eqp fixes? Fixing or dumping the type 13 radar? Insane stock bomb loads on planes?

At some point, it becomes semi-subjective though. The stock campaign is entirely ahistorical. Include fixes to that? Sensors?

It gets messy fast.

tater

[Webster]

I don't think there is no interest, but as leo said, it's daunting.

What needs fixing?

Taihosan Maru, that's a CTD, we can probably all agree on that. Jace11's akitsu maru rudder fix, just visual, but needs fixing. Ditto prop direction. Ship eqp fixes? Fixing or dumping the type 13 radar? Insane stock bomb loads on planes?

At some point, it becomes semi-subjective though. The stock campaign is entirely ahistorical. Include fixes to that? Sensors?

It gets messy fast.

tater

well understandably so, but all i was talking about was taking what has already been fixed and putting it together into one fix.

as it stands now they are all "incorperated" into other mods and arent easily found to be put into a stand alone patch. so as i said before if you play it stock you are left out.

as far as whats being worked on or needing to be fixed that is another thread altogether.

[tater]

RFB is pretty well documented in terms of changes, and TM has a pretty good changelog, too.

Extracting the mods shouldn't be that hard.

tater

[tater]

Then you get stuff like the DD problem. It's fixed in NSM, but that's a big change, and doesn't fit with stock in that you could make a new, stock ship, and it would need to be fixed for NSM.

tater

[tater]

Here are all the ship corrections I've worked on in 1 package (entirely "stock" compatible):

http://mpgtext.net/subshare/645Combined%20ship%20corrections.rar

[Webster]

Then you get stuff like the DD problem. It's fixed in NSM, but that's a big change, and doesn't fit with stock in that you could make a new, stock ship, and it would need to be fixed for NSM.

tater

ok, but then if it was a new "stock ship" it would work in all mods by simply tweaking the mod your using so it works in that mod but not by saying "you cant have it unless you use this mod" which often means you cant use other mods because they conflict.

all im saying is that all game fixes should be made to work for the stock version and by default that would mean they will work for all mods as well because all mods start from the stock version. it might mean a small tweak in some mods to be compatable but it would only be minor tweak if at all.

[tater]

Maybe the worst offenders in terms of DM problems could be fixed for stock by werner. You might ask him. Just corrected, not NSM versions.

[Rockin Robbins]

Let me see if I understand you. Then with JSGME, you would load the fixes first, and then layer mods on top any way you wish and the fixes would underlie all of them?

I'm still not clear on what's a fix. Is NSM a fix or a mod? (the answer is "yes"):lol: How about LBO, is that a fix for an unrealistic ocean both in behavior and appearance, and the floating piece of bedrock submarine, or is it a mod?

Somebody has to rent that stadium!:arrgh!:

[Webster]

Let me see if I understand you. Then with JSGME, you would load the fixes first, and then layer mods on top any way you wish and the fixes would underlie all of them?

well yes that is the idea but i dont thing it would be something suited for JSGME

the way i see it being used, it would be installed perminent like the way patch 1.3 is used, you have no need to uninstall it because it would return the game to not working right.

if it isnt clearly a game repair then leave it out as a stand alone fix so you can decide if you want that fix or not.

im not suggesting a big large giant file fixing everything, there is just way too much wrong with the game to do anything like that.

im just saying what has already been fixed right now, today, already in use, pull those fixes out from the mod they are in and create a "game repair" folder that could be manually installed or made JSGME ready.

[Metl]

I think everyone is going overboard. How hard is it to specify between fix and mod? Hmmm....lets see.
Fix=pertains to anything which would cause a crash, or game playing problem, not to fix something that is "Unreal" ; example of a fix would be Taihosan Maru or DD's sinking themselves, which I'm sure they are not supposed to do.

Mod=Alters the way the actual game plays, operates or looks, dependent on player preference eg. RFB, TM, ROW or even battery life

Just my two cents. I would love to have a fix for the actual problems, without having to up the difficulty so much that it's no fun. TM fixes alot, but it's just too difficult for me. Same goes with all.

[tater]

The DDs blowing themselves up is a DC problem (well, really AI, but the only fix is DC). The depth precision needs to be lower, though stock is 5m I think.

[tater]

BTW, Metl, you might try my DC mod added to TM. That'll give em less ammo and should make it a little easier. If that doesn't do it enough, you can always then cut out some sensor stuff as is shown in the FAQ.

tater

[Webster]

I think everyone is going overboard. How hard is it to specify between fix and mod? Hmmm....lets see.
Fix=pertains to anything which would cause a crash, or game playing problem, not to fix something that is "Unreal" ; example of a fix would be Taihosan Maru or DD's sinking themselves, which I'm sure they are not supposed to do.

Mod=Alters the way the actual game plays, operates or looks, dependent on player preference eg. RFB, TM, ROW or even battery life

Just my two cents. I would love to have a fix for the actual problems, without having to up the difficulty so much that it's no fun. TM fixes alot, but it's just too difficult for me. Same goes with all.

i concur whole heartedly with Metl, we are not alone in feeling this way.

many out there are reading this thread (365 so far) and should please give their opinions on it.

let those who have the repairs for the game know that we would be gratefull if they shared them so we could use their repairs without having to use their mods

i went through this with SH3 and was "forced" to use GWX to get the fixes it provided and hack the hell out of it to undo all the increased difficulty it added in the name of the holy church of realism. any request i made for help only got me ridiculed and insulted for even suggesting i wanted to know of a way to undo some of the added realism and increased difficulty. i finally just gave up and stopped playing SH3 altogether.

when i started to see the SH4 fixes disappear into large mods and no longer hear about solutions to fixing things i thought i better say something now before its too late to do anything about it.

keep mods as mods and keep repairs as stand alone fixes so they are not just found inside big mods.

[tater]

The mod posted above has the taihosan maru fix in there, eqp fixes, akitsu maru rudder, and dumps the radars that shouldn't be there. A full readme is inside.

tater

[Digital_Trucker]

i concur whole heartedly with Metl, we are not alone in feeling this way.

many out there are reading this thread (365 so far) and should please give their opinions on it.


Just so you know, the view count for a thread doesn't mean that that many people have read the thread. It is a count of how many times the thread has been viewed. Every time someone posts in the thread, it counts as a view (possibly two if they review their post). Then the count is increased by one for every person who reads the new post (whether they have previously viewed the thread or not).

A I compose this post, there are 28 posts in this thread by 9 different people. If each of those people viewed each post in the thread that would account for up to 252 of those 365 posts (depending on if they read more than one new post at a time). Each person who views each post thereafter would add up to another 28 views each.

If you really want to determine the opinions of the whole of the community regarding a "fix it all" patch, you need to run a poll with one vote for each person.
Then, you need to ask each person who voted that one is needed what their list of "mandatory fixes" is. I think you would be surprised at the number of completely different answers you get.

[Webster]

Just so you know, the view count for a thread doesn't mean that that many people have read the thread. It is a count of how many times the thread has been viewed.

well you are correct but why would you click to "view" a thread and then not read it?


If each of those people viewed each post in the thread that would account for up to 252 of those 365 posts (depending on if they read more than one new post at a time).

no, it doesnt count each post you read inside the thread (if that were the case then TM would have over a million lol. it only counts the viewing of the thread as a whole no matter how many pages you view within it.

Then, you need to ask each person who voted that one is needed what their list of "mandatory fixes" is. I think you would be surprised at the number of completely different answers you get.

Metl said it very well


Originally Posted by Metl
I think everyone is going overboard. How hard is it to specify between fix and mod? Hmmm....lets see.
Fix=pertains to anything which would cause a crash, or game playing problem, not to fix something that is "Unreal" ; example of a fix would be Taihosan Maru or DD's sinking themselves, which I'm sure they are not supposed to do.

Mod=Alters the way the actual game plays, operates or looks, dependent on player preference eg. RFB, TM, ROW or even battery life

if it isnt clearly a game repair then leave it out as a stand alone fix so you can decide if you want that fix or not.

im not suggesting a big large giant file fixing everything, there is just way too much wrong with the game to do anything like that.

im just saying what has already been fixed right now, today, already in use, pull those fixes out from the mod they are in and create a "game repair" folder that could be manually installed or made JSGME ready.

[tater]

Not to OT too much, but it seems like the views is a function of unique visitors to a page after a new post has been added.

When I wrote that, it was (with this post) 31 posts, and 429 views. 429/31=14.3

My return after my post didn't update the count, either.

[Digital_Trucker]

well, all I was trying to say is that the post count is not the same as the number of INDIVIDUAL, I REPEAT, INDIVIDUAL people viewing the thread and i never implied that anyone would click to view a thread and then not read it, just that if someone reads a post, leaves the thread and comes back later to read another post, it counts as two views. I also never said that it counts each post, but, again, if a person reads one post, leaves and comes back to read another new post, it counts as another view. All of these assumptions on my part are based on experiences with many other forums. Unless something is done waaaaay different on this forum than others, then I stand by my deduction that there are not over 400 individuals reading this thread.

If you really want this overall "game fix", post a poll asking who thinks it is necessary and what they think "absolutely must be fixed". I guarantee that you will be surprised by the multitude of different ideas of "must fixes" and possibly by the general opinion as to whether a "game fix" mod is needed.

Edit : @tater that is exactly the point I was trying to make. If 20 people view one new post, it counts as 20 views. If they subsequently come back to view a different new post it counts as 20 more views. So the number of people viewing the thread is not 40, but 20.

[tater]

Yeah, that's my understanding as well.

After 1.4 I don't see this idea as a bad one, the trouble is really what the limit of such fixes would be. CTD issues are clearly in need of 100% fixes, obvious goofs like props, no scope animation, rudders 50 yards to one side of a ship, etc are also easy things to agree on. After that, however, it starts getting somewhat subjective I fear.

tater

[Digital_Trucker]

Yeah, that's my understanding as well.

After 1.4 I don't see this idea as a bad one, the trouble is really what the limit of such fixes would be. CTD issues are clearly in need of 100% fixes, obvious goofs like props, no scope animation, rudders 50 yards to one side of a ship, etc are also easy things to agree on. After that, however, it starts getting somewhat subjective I fear.

tater

Amen. But the subjectivity could start even sooner than that. Some folks would call the prop rotation direction problem a "realism" mod:rotfl: and some would call improved campaign layers a game fix. I do agree that the game crash fixes should be at least kept as stand-alone options for those that do not desire any mods. I believe that some of those "fixes" can still be downloaded as individual mods. I just don't think that an overall mandatory game-fix is necessary, especially if the "major" problems are solved in the 1.4 patch.

[tater]

Well, while they might be "realism" mods, they don't break anything by fixing them---at least some. Obviously the big issue is if the file is likely to be messed with by other mods. I don't know about anvart''s scope animation fix, but that might involve files that many other mods might want to touch (though clearing working on a proper, animating one makes sense).

On a semi-related note regarding the campaign.

I want a certain type of campaign, so that's what I made. As leo might say, it is rather "my way or the highway" in there. I welcome feedback, but at a certain point, it will be the way I want it to be, and I have included changes due to feedback tot he extent they fit my worldview :D

That said, you could easily take the automated campaign editor and make a variant campaign with only certain things changed from stock for people that want a quick and dirty changed campaign. For example, globally changing the escort AI skill levels to be random between competent and elite at some ratio. Globally making convoy escorts random DDs in a few more likely classes, perhaps mixed with subchasers. Globally applying random cargoes to merchants. Those types of things are possible for people who want the stock shooting gallery with more variability than 6-8 merchants escorted by 4 Akizukis all set to low skill. I'd be willing to help with this.