Red flare

[Ping Panther]

I had read somewhere that ships in convoy often preferred to launch a red flare at the first sighting of a U-Boat, torpedo path or attack. These red flares (snowflake rockets?) would be used both in daylight and night by the closest or most available ship to the sighting as a way to universally alert the merchants and escorts to take action.

I'll try to verify my info. from my reading with a quote, if needed.
With all the momentum of the GWX team, I am just trying to provide all th e bits of info. a new-ish guy can figure to add to this effort.

Have a super weekend! Cheers! :ahoy:

PLEASE! TAKE A LOOK AT THIS LINK!
It has all the convoy signals by code! (Red rockets are mentioned, horn blasts, pendants, EVERYTHING!)
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/extras/index.html
Click into 'CONVOY SIGNALS' Flag info. at top of page & Rocket flare/horn blasts at bottom of page!

[Sailor Steve]

SH2 had them, except they had them white. They were called 'Distress Rockets'. Their use in Titanic was one of that movie's best scenes.

SH3 dumped them for searchlights. They would be kind of cool, but I doubt they could be done. That said, lots of things are being done now that everybody said was impossible a year ago. Who knows?:sunny:

[Jimbuna]

Red flares :hmm:

:lol:

[3Jane]

I would prefere them to the searchlights. I can't see a convoy lighting up like that and making it's self visible to all the u-boats in the are which might not have a fix on it.

[Jimbuna]

You don't like the sight of all those searchlights during a night air raid then on a port ? :hmm:

[Venatore]

Red flares :hmm:

Agreed Jimbuna, this may have potential, I wonder. Seeing reds flares at night including the ship white spot lights would be a really good combination. :hmm:

[papa_smurf]

Sounds like a good idea to add to to SH3/GWX.

[Jimbuna]

Red flares :hmm:

Agreed Jimbuna, this may have potential, I wonder. Seeing reds flares at night including the ship white spot lights would be a really good combination. :hmm:

Something akin to the control room lighting are you thinking ? :hmm:

[Dowly]

SH2 had them, except they had them white. They were called 'Distress Rockets'. Their use in Titanic was one of that movie's best scenes.

SH3 dumped them for searchlights. They would be kind of cool, but I doubt they could be done. That said, lots of things are being done now that everybody said was impossible a year ago. Who knows?:sunny:

No, SHIII has them too. :up:

[Ping Panther]

I'm checking on that written reference I had from a while ago to the full context of the red flare signals. It would be for a first occurence of sighting and response, even in daylight. Then whatever illumination, if at night, would be used by escorts... searchlights, starshells. Red flare is just the help alert.

[Sailor Steve]

No, SHIII has them too. :up:
Where? What? When? I don't recall seeing them. Starshells, sure; but distress rockets from stricken ships?

[Dowly]

No, SHIII has them too. :up:
Where? What? When? I don't recall seeing them. Starshells, sure; but distress rockets from stricken ships?

Yeh, white star shells. I dont recall seeing RED star shells in SHII. Both SHII & SHIII have white. Right? :hmm:

[iambecomelife]

No, SHIII has them too. :up:
Where? What? When? I don't recall seeing them. Starshells, sure; but distress rockets from stricken ships?

Racerboy added distress flares a few weeks ago. Right now they are only available for the NKSQ but they will be added to the other ships eventually.

I agree that merchant ships shouldn't have searchlights since the AI automatically turns them on & illuminates the whole convoy. Historically any sailor who left even one light on could be in serious trouble. I remember reading in one book that a Coast Guard vessel once threatened to machine gun a tanker if they didn't screen their portholes.

[Sailor Steve]

No, SHIII has them too. :up:
Where? What? When? I don't recall seeing them. Starshells, sure; but distress rockets from stricken ships?

Yeh, white star shells. I dont recall seeing RED star shells in SHII. Both SHII & SHIII have white. Right? :hmm:
Right; but in SH3 I think only destroyers fire them. SH2 had every ship fire one straight up when one got torpedoed at night. It was pretty cool.

Racerboy added distress flares a few weeks ago. Right now they are only available for the NKSQ but they will be added to the other ships eventually.
COOL! Even if only the stricken ship fires one, it's an awesome thing. Actually, having only the stricken ship fire one makes a lot more sense; that way the escorts know who was hit.

I also agree with your assessment of merchant searchlights. While it looks good in the game, I'm sure the Convoy Commodore doesn't want all of his precious merchants suddenly saying "Here I am! Over here! Shoot me first!"

[mrbeast]

I seem to recall a convoy tactic that involved the convoy totally illuminating itself once it had been attacked, I'm talking ship hit here not just false alarm. Basically all the escorts would perform a manover that cut off all the likely escape routes for a sub. I think the rationale was that by illuminating the convoy it prevented the U boat from hiding among the ships and escaping so it was either on the surface and in sight or it was forced to dive. Forget where I read it. :hmm:

[d@rk51d3]

On AOD, what was that thing that launched itself directly from any boat you torp'd? Looked like a fireball, or a rocket of some sort fired straight up, a loooong way. Was that meant to be a flare of some sort?

[Venatore]

This has so much potenial. :hmm:

[Goose_green]

I remember reading from "Attack & Sink" by Bernard Edwards about the convoy battle between SC42 and boats from Markgraf group. In the book it is clearly mentioned that rockets and flares were used during a U Boat attack. Here is the relevant section;

"Now, it seemed, the battle was to be joined in earnst. Flares and rockets soared into the night sky, whistles screeched, and tracer acred across the water as nervous gunners fired at shadowy forms slipping silently through the ranks of the convoy."

I realise there was no mention of the rockets or flares being red in colour but goes to prove that pyrotechnics of this kind were used. But it seems to use such pyrotechnics can help search for surfaced U Boats but equally distract those on watch of each merchant or escort to the advantage of an attacking U Boat, the next two passages can explain this thought;

"Immediately after the torpedoing of the Stargard and the Skeena, on station 3,000 yards ahead of the Everleigh, swept round to port and fired starshells to illuminate the exposed flank of the convoy. Kenogami raced in to support her, and both escorts began an anti-submarine search"

In that passage it briefly explains that using such illumination can help with anti submarine operations, but the next passage explains a different story;

"Not all the heavy guns and smooth-running generators in creation would have saved Sally Maersk that night. Her lookouts were distracted by the brilliant display of pyrotechnics on the far side of the convoy, where rockets and starshells continued to soar skywards and all the escorts were concentrated. It was an easymatter for Friedrich Gruggenberger to manoevre U-81 into a favourite position to attack."

The text goes on to describe the blissful unwareness of the crews of several ships that another U Boat was lining up their ships, five in all, in his binoculars before deciding the final target.

I hope this helps with explaining the use of pyrotechnics, it would be interesting to see if something like this can be replicated in the next GWX version or a single stand alone mod i it would make convoy attacks look a bit more exciting instead of seeing the odd starshell and all merchants switching on their searchlights.

[Jimbuna]

I seem to recall a convoy tactic that involved the convoy totally illuminating itself once it had been attacked, I'm talking ship hit here not just false alarm. Basically all the escorts would perform a manover that cut off all the likely escape routes for a sub. I think the rationale was that by illuminating the convoy it prevented the U boat from hiding among the ships and escaping so it was either on the surface and in sight or it was forced to dive. Forget where I read it. :hmm:

I would be extremely interested in reading said material if you ever recall the source :yep:
AFAIK every ship had to strictly adhere to a blackout lest more targets for the 'possible' wolfpack :hmm:

[Ping Panther]

I am still flipping back into my older readings. I am pretty sure it ws a few historical merchant novels ago for me. It's good to see it's taking in some concerned interests. Would anyone be into some very deep online references to the Armored Guard of the U.S. Merchant Fleets here? I am setting up a link posting sometime soon, I just want to be sure it's not duplicating previous posts.

BTW, mention here of Racerboys recent effects v.1.06, I think... WOW! are so awesome! :yep: To see the rocket/flare distress signals set up would be great!

[iambecomelife]

I seem to recall a convoy tactic that involved the convoy totally illuminating itself once it had been attacked, I'm talking ship hit here not just false alarm. Basically all the escorts would perform a manover that cut off all the likely escape routes for a sub. I think the rationale was that by illuminating the convoy it prevented the U boat from hiding among the ships and escaping so it was either on the surface and in sight or it was forced to dive. Forget where I read it. :hmm:

I would be extremely interested in reading said material if you ever recall the source :yep:
AFAIK every ship had to strictly adhere to a blackout lest more targets for the 'possible' wolfpack :hmm:

I think this tactic was called the "Half Raspberry". It was described in the "Aces of the Deep" manual. I remember from the description that after a ship was torpedoed, all the other merchants would launch rockets simultaneously on a given signal while the escorts turned to starboard and doubled back in a 180 ' turn to catch the submarine. It was spectacular-looking but it was also controversial b/c there was the obvious risk of illuminating the convoy for U-Boats that had not yet made contact.

[Ping Panther]

Yes, you are right on the "Half Raspberry"!
One of the most common escort procedures.

Check out an old BBC online training thing here:
www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/launch_gms_battle_atlantic.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/launch_gms_battle_atlantic.shtml)
You will need to sit through some intro. screens then there is a whole menu of all types of training demos. from the Royal Navy, WW2.

It's all good info. and worth the screen loads at the start.

[Sailor Steve]

Cool! So SH2 was right.

I love learning new stuff. Thanks, both of you.:sunny:

[Ping Panther]

Guys! I just verified my previous stuff on the red rocket naval signals!

I have not had a chance to get to that book I had in mind from where I connected red flare warning by convoys.... so I spent a good bit of this afternoon on the web and I spotted an absolute historical reference that's even better! Including pendants, AND.... just about ALL signal status requirements, including by if it is to be signalled from ecorts or merchants! AND, it even states the reference of the Naval Appendix to International Codes!

Hang in there, I have to get back to the kids... I'll hopefully post this reference back here as soon I get clear. :D

[mrbeast]

I seem to recall a convoy tactic that involved the convoy totally illuminating itself once it had been attacked, I'm talking ship hit here not just false alarm. Basically all the escorts would perform a manover that cut off all the likely escape routes for a sub. I think the rationale was that by illuminating the convoy it prevented the U boat from hiding among the ships and escaping so it was either on the surface and in sight or it was forced to dive. Forget where I read it. :hmm:

I would be extremely interested in reading said material if you ever recall the source :yep:
AFAIK every ship had to strictly adhere to a blackout lest more targets for the 'possible' wolfpack :hmm:

I think this tactic was called the "Half Raspberry". It was described in the "Aces of the Deep" manual. I remember from the description that after a ship was torpedoed, all the other merchants would launch rockets simultaneously on a given signal while the escorts turned to starboard and doubled back in a 180 ' turn to catch the submarine. It was spectacular-looking but it was also controversial b/c there was the obvious risk of illuminating the convoy for U-Boats that had not yet made contact.

Bingo thats where I read it! I knew it was a long while ago. It was in the online manual that came on the disk with the game. Was pretty good too had interviews with veteran U boat skippers including Kretschmer, Hardegen and Topp IIRC plus quite an expansive history of the U boat war, ships, tactics etc. Those were the days when a game was a complete, proper boxed package, not just a disk and a thin 'manual' that leaves you none the wiser!

I think the convoy illuminating itself was to afford the U boat no place to hide. Convoys that remained blacked out often allowed the U boat a hiding place in the middle of the it. Merchant look outs were notoriously poor for much of the war, sometimes U boats were only spotted when just metres away!

[Ping Panther]

PLEASE! TAKE A LOOK AT THIS LINK!
It has all the convoy signals by code! (Red rockets are mentioned, horn blasts, pendants, EVERYTHING!)
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/extras/index.html
Click into 'CONVOY SIGNALS' Flag info. at top of page & Rocket flare/horn blasts at bottom of page!

[mrbeast]

Cool link will have to give that site a good look at later.:up:

[Venatore]

PLEASE! TAKE A LOOK AT THIS LINK!
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/extras/index.html
Ping Panther,

:rock: Bloody excellent link. Thank you for sharing. Now about those red flares that someone is modding :hmm:

[Ping Panther]

The red rockets/flares are an interesting fact, as well as the green flare drop made by a passing aircraft at a sub sighting in order to alert others. It would certainly have been an aid to the ASW communications to have the merchants steer clear & the escorts to get to the signalled alerts.

I looked up the Very (Very's Light), mentioned as well:
Very light
Definition: colored flare: a colored flare fired from a pistol, used as a signal.
[Early 20th century. After Edward W. Very (1847-1910), U.S. naval officer]

This is just the sort of thing that gets me going about good historic simulations. There tends to be an infinite amount of learning, discussions, and reflection of events beyond ourselves.

[Jimbuna]

Here's a link re:The Raspberry and Half Raspberry tactic :up:

http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-gol-wac-e.htm

I'm afraid I can't see any reference to 'lighting up' a convoy :hmm:

[mrbeast]

:|\\ Here's a link re:The Raspberry and Half Raspberry tactic :up:

http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-gol-wac-e.htm

I'm afraid I can't see any reference to 'lighting up' a convoy :hmm:

Quite sure the AOTD manual mentioned flares.

[Brag]

PLEASE! TAKE A LOOK AT THIS LINK!
It has all the convoy signals by code! (Red rockets are mentioned, horn blasts, pendants, EVERYTHING!)
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/extras/index.html
Click into 'CONVOY SIGNALS' Flag info. at top of page & Rocket flare/horn blasts at bottom of page!


Excellent find, Ping :D

[Jimbuna]

:|\\ Here's a link re:The Raspberry and Half Raspberry tactic :up:

http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-gol-wac-e.htm

I'm afraid I can't see any reference to 'lighting up' a convoy :hmm:

Quite sure the AOTD manual mentioned flares.

I'm not doubting you for a second :nope:

It's just that I asked my father and he has no recollection either....other than the odd distress flare :hmm:

[Huskalar]

Very nice links guys, thanks. :up:

[mrbeast]

:|\\ Here's a link re:The Raspberry and Half Raspberry tactic :up:

http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-gol-wac-e.htm

I'm afraid I can't see any reference to 'lighting up' a convoy :hmm:

Quite sure the AOTD manual mentioned flares.

I'm not doubting you for a second :nope:

It's just that I asked my father and he has no recollection either....other than the odd distress flare :hmm:

Possible that the illuminating part of the Raspberry manouver was not used much or abandoned? I don't know how common it was possibly not very by the lack of much apparent evidence.

[Jimbuna]

:|\\ Here's a link re:The Raspberry and Half Raspberry tactic :up:

http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-mob-gol-wac-e.htm

I'm afraid I can't see any reference to 'lighting up' a convoy :hmm:

Quite sure the AOTD manual mentioned flares.

I'm not doubting you for a second :nope:

It's just that I asked my father and he has no recollection either....other than the odd distress flare :hmm:

Possible that the illuminating part of the Raspberry manouver was not used much or abandoned? I don't know how common it was possibly not very by the lack of much apparent evidence.

Quite possibly :hmm: