View Full Version : [REL] [WIP] IJN DC mod
IJN DC Mod, version 0.92
Fixes a typo in the IJN_DC.zon file that resulted in a CTD (mismatched Parent ID)
Fixed the Akizuki loadout.
Tweaked a few eqps for the ICL XPCs
DOWNLOAD:
http://mpgtext.net/subshare/241IJN%20DC%20mod%200.92.rar
(http://mpgtext.net/subshare/241IJN%20DC%20mod%200.92.rar)
This version includes 2 new K guns (one for type 95, one for a 110kg type 2), and 4 new Y guns (2 type 9s, 2 110kg type 2s).
DCRack_SH4 (stock) = 18 Type 2 DCs (162kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE95_1 = 18 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE95_2 = 10 Type 95 DCs
DCRack_TYPE02_1 = 18 Type 2 DCs (110kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE02_2 = 6 Type 95/2 DCs -- parachute retarded 95s at ~100kg (I left them damage light to avoid sterns getting blown off on shallow drops)
KGun (stock) = 11 Type 2 DCs (162kg warhead)
KGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
KGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs
YGun (stock) = 10 Type 2 DCs (162kg warhead)
YGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (3 per side of Y) (100kg warhead)
YGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs (5 per side of Y)
YGun_JP_04 = 8 Type 2 DCs (4 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)
YGun_JP_05 = 12 Type 2 DCs (6 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)
For each DC:
Type 95:
Fall rate: 1.9 (1 for the retarded version)
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 170
MaxEF: 220
AP:0
MinRadius: 4
MaxRadius: 16 (~100 damage at 10m)
(MaxRadius = 11 for retarded version, again, to minimize blowups)
Type 2 (110kg):
Fall rate: 3
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 190
MaxEF: 230
AP:0
MinRadius: 4
MaxRadius: 16.5 (~100 damage at 10m)
Type 2 (162kg):
Fall rate: 3
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 200
MaxEF: 340
AP:0
MinRadius: 4.5
MaxRadius: 25 (~100 damage at 15m)
Let me know how it works.
What 0.91 will do to gameplay:
The "easier" gameplay still applies in terms of the number of DCs that will be dropped on you before the escorts run out. As for lethality... vs stock, I think you will still see less damage. Vs RFB and TM, you will see more damage. The early war DCs are now about what you are used to in RFB/TM. The later war (1943+) large type 2 DCs are more lethal. Their min damage is slightly higher than what you are used to, and the max is 50% higher.
One-hit kills are still extremely unlikely in my testing with the type 95s and light type 2s. They are a little more likely with the large type 2 DCs.
Version 0.9 README:
First off, a huge thank you to lurker_hlb3. He made my initial DC racks and DCs for me, and has been my constant sounding board. Thanks are also due a few other people... they know who they are, <S>.
SH4 uses a single DC type. It falls at 3 m/s damages your sub out to 40m, and is used by the roll rack, Y gun, and K gun. The stock ammo load for it is 40 DCs per launcher. The 2 supermods, RFB and TM both reduce the damage radius considerably (10 and 14.5m respectively). I have the max radius out as far as 16 for the bigger DC, and 14.5 for the smaller ones (they only do ~60% the damage of stock however).
This mod adds 4 new DC types, and 4 new roll racks. The 2 throwers are unchanged other than their ammo loads. The 2 real life IJN DCs were the Type 95, and later Type 2. There was a parachute retarded version for small craft. The Type 2 had 3 different warheads, but 2 were within 5kg of each other, so I have just 1 to represent both.
Each rack launches a DC similarly named (for anyone wishing to mess with eqp files to make their own loads):
DCRack_TYPE95_1 set to 1.9m/s rate of fall, a 100kg warhead and a load of 18 DCs.
DCRack_TYPE95_2 1.9m/s fall speed, a 100kg warhead and a load of 12 DCs (I wanted more load control, largely for future, smaller subchasers, I may reduce this to 6 or 8 DCs instead, open to suggestions).
DCRack_TYPE02_1 is set to 0.8m/s fall speed (water-parachute retarded to allow small craft acting as SCs to get away), load of 6 with a ~100kg warhead so it will do for both Type 2 and Type 95 (not terribly useful for RFB/stock, but I use it for armed trawlers, and others I plan on bashing). If you are using the stock campaign, you will never see any of these, even with the mod installed.
DCRack_TYPE02_2 is a 110kg warhead, 3m/s fall speed, and load of 18.
The stock SH4 DC is a 3m/s 162kg version (unchanged from stock), load changed to 18 from 40. Radius is less than stock, but more than RFB or TM. The min radius is also upped to 5.5 so they will have full lethality a little farther out (1m farther).
The Y and K guns have loads dropped from 40 to 11 DCs carried.
The mod adds the new racks, and alters escort eqp files to add the new racks by date so that over time, the load of DCs might increase, as well as the exact type of DCs carried by any given escort.
Two versions are included. One for anyone playing with the stock SH4 campaign, and another for anyone using my campaign---either stand alone, with RFB, or TM 1.5+. They are clearly marked:
IJN DC mod v 0.9 for stock SH4 campaign
and
IJN DC mod v 0.9 forTM or ICL
drag the appropriate folder to MODs and install. Note that this needs to be installed AFTER either RFB or TM.
What this will do to gameplay:
This mod will make the game easier, not harder, in general. It grossly reduces the number of ashcans carried by escorts for the entire war. It will reduce the effectiveness of attacks, particularly early war. You will be held down, but not destroyed as often.
In the case of TM, because the AI is "harder" this mod will serve as yet another way to tweak the AI to your liking. Instead of nerfing the sensors (explained in the TM FAQ), you might try using this to nerf the DCs, instead. You will be attacked just as often, but they will have fewer DCs to drop, and early in the war, they will be less effective.
In both TM and RFB it will make the damage due to the stock DC a little worse. The radius is slightly increased both min and max, so damage a little farther out, and hitpoint damage about a meter farther out. Right now during the whole war, thrown DCs will fire the stock DC until I make new launchers. Rolled DCs upgrade tot he 162kg warhead version (stock SH4 DC) after various months in 1943 depending on the ship. The increased damage for the big type 2s is of course mitigated by far fewer carried DCs. Avoid getting hit! Fight the boat!
I am publishing this looking for feedback, it's very subjective what works and what doesn't.
As always, anyone is free to use this in any other mods with credits (don't forget lurker!) as long as it's not a commercial product. Drop me a line if you do, I might have a better internal build for you that would save you having to patch.
tater
Rockin Robbins
10-10-07, 03:56 PM
This sounds like just what the doctor ordered. I was afraid that it might make the game to easy, but it sounds like everything is well within the bounds of reason. Sign me on at the end of this cruise and I'll give you a report.
GerritJ9
10-10-07, 04:30 PM
Downloaded it, will give it a spin and see what it does! :up:
leovampire
10-10-07, 04:37 PM
LOL anyways glad you got it done as I know you have been working on this for a while now from all the posts I have read on what you were researching and finding out about how it all works. Time consuming process to say the lest.
Digital_Trucker
10-10-07, 06:07 PM
just finished a patrol and can plug this in and take her for a spin. Thanks to you and the "lurking one" for all the work on it:up:
panthercules
10-10-07, 07:59 PM
Sounds cool - yet one more reason to have to start my career over again. At this rate, I may never finish a patrol, much less a career :o
As it turns out, while I was using your campaign at some point, it seems to have disappeared from my setup during the various re-installs. Can you point me to a link to the latest/best version of your campaign that I should be using with RFB 1.31 and this DC mod?
ReallyDedPoet
10-10-07, 08:13 PM
Nice work on this tater, look forward to trying it out :up:
RDP
leovampire
10-10-07, 08:39 PM
These do not need for you to restart anything. Just should be added in base or port what ever you want to say before you leave for a new patrol.
These are not the type's of files that change the layers of the game. This control's the actual DC setting's and what ship's have them and how many.
Exactly, leo.
They alter the stock DC files inside Library, add 3 more DC files there. Inside ShipParts, they alter 1 existing file, and add 3 more. In the Sea folder, they replace eqp files only (with 1 exception in the ICL/TM version that has a ship cfg change to add a loadout for future use)
tater
panthercules
10-10-07, 09:34 PM
That's good to know, but since my copy of the new campaign mod seems to have disappeared somewhere along the way and I figure I'll need/want to add that in while I'm adding this in, I figured I'd need to do that while in port (and since I just started over again completely for the latest ROW and am only a couple of days out of port on my first patrol, I figured I might as well start completely over again for this anyway).
BTW - any link to the latest/best version of the improved campaign mod to use with this Tater? I'm dying to get started and check this puppy out, and I want to make sure I've got the right combination to go on top of my RFB 1.31 install :D
[edit] LOL - I was looking so hard through all the old pages for this thing that I forgot to check the stickied threads - I take it that version 0.78 from that thread is the right one to use with this?
I have made a test version withthe DC damage upped quite a bit (the large type 2---what we are all used to as standard---set to have a 16m radius, and a damage range of 340 to 500 instead of 170 to 230.
The 170-230 with a 40m radius is more dnagerous as far as I can tell. I had ONE standard DC blow up almost touching an aft mounted deck gun on tambor, and it crippled me. I had one of my super DCs explode in a similar place and it did far less damage. There is more to the min/max radii than I understand I think.
I'm beginning to think that radius might be a poor thing to mod, that or the damage values will have to go WAY up.
I think a single DC going off next to the hull should be GRAVE if not instantly fatal.
tater
Tater,
currently in Manila, loading up more torps and heading back out to hunt that huge invasion fleet.
I have been subjected to 4 really good depth charge attacks so far...but no damage. Will add your mod and go after them again. Looking forward to checking out the new mod.
Thanks
Wilcke
What are people's experiences with RFB and TM regarding DC attacks (without this mod)?
I'm a little confused, some of the changes I recently tested haven't done what I expected. Upping DC damage by 2X seemed to have no real effect, and I retested the same mission with stock DCs (including radius) and they were more deadly than the doubled damage version. In both cases I was looking for near contact detonations, so you'd think the radius would have no bearing on the damage, just the damage min and max values.
tater
DCs are giving me fits. That and the sub DM.
Something is very screwy. I tested looking for drops that resulted in near contact hits on a tambor, 1943. I lucked out, and managed a few tests with nearly identical hits. The hits were just abaft of the conning tower, a little above the deck gun in height. Well within 4m of the deck.
A stock DC (170 to 230 HP, 4.5m min, 40m max radius) nearly sank the boat. Loads of damage to systems, and a few "1" bulkhead damages.
I tested the mod I posted altered for the 162kg DC did 340 to 500 HP damage, with the radii set to 5.5m min, and 16 max. An almost identical hit did a bunch of damage, but not nearly as critical as the stock DC.
The radius is far more important than the HP value, I'm beginning to think the RFB/TM method of dropping the radius is making DCs far too weak. Note that I entirely agree with the goals of DC changes in both mods—a lot of DC attacks, but more survivable due to complex reasons in the game (when they do drop, they are depth accurate in aim, etc.). My goal is not uber DCs, but I think that DCs that are in contact, or nearly in contact should have a good chance to cripple the boat, while DCs farther out (past maybe 15m or so) should do nearly nothing at all other than shake the boat. The exact certain death radius, etc is a gameplay tweak, but I'd like it to be possible. Note that in testing sub DMs I put every single torpedo from a fleet boat into an S boat and never once got her to sink.
I'm going to test a stock DC with a small radius (~16) and a HUGE HP value, with a small range (like 900 min, 1000 max) and see what happens.
Actually, I think I need to test/tweak until a DC going off inside 6m sinks a sub, any sub, with 1 hit every time. I'd have the range of damage values vary by 1 HP. 999 to 1000, for example. That would be a boundry value, not what I'd use to play.
Then I can dial down the min damage to control the % of sure kills inside 6m. If 800 is massive damage inside 6m, and 1000 is a 100% kill, then an 800-1000 range might give desired results for a close drop. I could also make the min range considerably lower to create variablity/playability.
Then I can look at the radius and how it affects things. Right now as I see it sub damage is VERY sensitive to max radius, and pretty insensitive to DC damage max/min.
The issue with just upping the radius seems to be cumulative damage. With an ahistorically high radius (the stock 40m), there is the chance that many DCs too far away to do damage in RL might cripple the sub via a lot of small hp damage.
tater
Just tested a DC with 5.5m min radius, 16m max, minEF 950, maxEF 1000.
DC explodes just abaft of the port forward dive plane, almost in contact. Bulkhead 100% destroyed, DP transmission destroyed, no other damage.
The max radius is the critical value, a stock DC doing 170-230 damage would have don FAR more general damage.
I took a few more fairly close hits, one in about the same place, and when I went below 120 feet due to flooding, I crushed. The HP damage was obviously severe.
tater
Why do torpedoes have an AP value, but DCs don't?
A mark14 that uses the mag pistol shouldn't ever penetrate a hull before detonating.
tater
AP massively changes the way DCs behave!
I took a slightly more powerful DC (OK, damage of 390-400 ;) ). Min radius 6, max 16.
Gave it an AP of 25. A close hit (almost touching) was brutal. Not an instant sinking, but certainly RTB immediately assuming you survive at all type of damage. More distant hits seemingly did nothing, and middle distance hits gave the AA and deck gun damage so commonly seen in stock SH4 DC attacks from distance DCs.
I think some sort of AP value has a lot of promise. 25 might be too high, not sure yet. Next I will try a straight TM DC with a small AP added and see what happens.
Note that bombs have AP values, and the AP gets used even if the "hit" is a near miss. Torpedoes get AP, and mag pistols shouldn't impact at all.
In a thread a long time ago about trying to make AA dangerous to subs, ducimus said the stock DC damage was good because a direct hit should take out the sub. I agree, but in my testing, direct hits with DCs modified as per TM, a direct hit does no such thing. I think with an AP value added it just might...
tater
your on to something....to bad I am still at work!
Wilcke
Now that I have some ideas as to where the ballpark values should be, I need to test rigorously.
Watch an attack, and screenshot the DC explosion in such a way that I can roughtly determine distance. After taking damage, save, then open with the damage analyzer and see what it looks like. Do the same for similar hits with various DC mods in place.
BTW, the hedgehog DCs have an AP value in stock
Canonicus
10-11-07, 05:07 PM
tater..I'm simply loving the detailed insights into your way of thinking on this...
I want MORE! :yep:
BTW..this will be great when you get it worked out.
heheh.
I "blog" this stuff here for two reasons:
One, in the hopes someone who knows better will drop in and just tell me where I'm wrong, and what I should do. The SH3 guys, for example, know a scary amount about this stuff. They've likely tried much or all of this, and can tell me why it seems like a good idea, but breaks X, Y, and Z.
Two, and this is critical, if I think of some of this, I need to write it down immediately or I'll likely forget the whole idea before I finish my next cup of coffee :D
tater
mrbeast
10-11-07, 06:18 PM
This sounds very interesting Tater. My experiance with DCs in the game is that they either do nothing, maybe cause light damage to the DG or they sink me right off. There doesnt seem to be any middle ground where they cause realistic levels of damage and force you to RTB. Sounds like you might be on to something with adding an AP value to DCs.
Digital_Trucker
10-11-07, 07:11 PM
Do you think you could save a game just before a DC explodes near your sub? If the changes could be made (and be in effect) to the DC while you are out of port, then you should be guaranteed of being the same distance from the sub when it explodes. I'm guessing that the game sets the detonation depth when the DC is launched rather than trying to randomize it as it is descending. Just a thought (most of them are wacky, but occasionally constructive:rotfl: )
I see something similar. I never get killed by the 1st DC. Never. I have many go off all around, with mostly minor damage, a lot of shaking then I get total HP failure and go down.
In RL, it was expected that a single CLOSE hit would be a kill. That just doesn't happen in RFB/TM. One hit might kill you, but it's the first DC in the 10th DC attack you'd had this patrol ;)
The downside to fixing this will be "magic bullets." Sometimes the first DC might shack you. The plus side would ideally be realism. Do everything to fight the attack.
The AP=25 DCs are pretty nasty within their explosion radius realm, and seem very well behaved.
I tested a modded TM DC with only 2 changes. I added AP of 25, and I dropped the depth error to a much smaller number for testing (I want to get hit, remember).
Just adding the 25 for AP certainly helps., but they are still not remotely as destructive as stock DCs. Note that I am only talking about hits well within the 4.5m 100% damage zone.
Another test I did had the minEF set to 250, and maxEF set to 400. AP=40, minradius was 4.5, max was 16. Those seemed pretty decent. Get shacked, and you take serious damage. Not instantly fatal, but bad enough you will be hard pressed to get away alive.
tater
PS--interesting idea on the test, DT.
Excalibur Bane
10-12-07, 02:08 AM
Excellent thread. You have the skill of a tester, very nice indeed. I enjoy the observations and your DC mod is actually the first realism oriented one I've ever used. Keep up the good work, Tater, as always! :up:
If you want me to add your mod to the list, let me know. I wanted to ask as you said it was more of testing release then a final or beta.
WilhelmTell
10-12-07, 05:05 AM
Thanks for this mod tater. I like everything that contributes to a more realistic Silent Hunter game.
Excellent work ! :up:
I did more testing last night.
First, I do look at distant hits a little. Stock DCs invariably result in deck gun damage from pretty far away. Seems like a good indicator that some slight damage is occurring. The DCs with max radius dropped from the stock 40 down to 10 (RFB), 15 (TM), or even 20-25 seriously reduce damage from distant hits as expected. In that sense, RFB and TM DCs do exactly what was intended. Where they don't work as well is up close.
I've been looking at explosions close enough that the explosion visual effect hits the hull.
The stock DCs do more damage partially because they affect multiple compartments when they hit, but also because they seem to blanket compartments they do hit with damage. Such a blast usually does heavy bulkhead damage where it hits (usually a "1"), and almost as heavy in each adjacent compartment. Around 75% of the systems inside the compartment get some level of damage most of the time. Sometimes all of them. Adjacent compartments get a smaller amount of daamge. More often than not, such a hit with a stock DC is a mission kill of my boat.
In a TM DC blast that touches, I get the bulkhead damage at >50%, and usually a couple of internal systems hit badly, some times as many as 30-50% systems damaged, but that was rare in testing.
The difference is odd since both hits are within the minradius, which is identical in stock and TM DCs. The damage values are the same, too. Odd.
With an AP value of 25 added to a TM DC, I got 100% bulkhead damage most of the time, and 2-3 badly damaged systems in the compartment.
If I take the TM DC, and up the damage about 2X (300-400) along with the AP of 25, the results start looking like stock DCs up close, but they still tend to only affect 1 compartment instead of the usual 3 for amidships hits with a stock DC.
In both the AP added examples, there is sometimes long range (10-15m) deck gun damage seen.
I think the goal will be to make an AP added DC that easily at least soft kills (meaning the boat is crippled to the point that lying on the bottom or blowing tanks are about the only short term options) the sub at close range (explosion visual hits hull). Then I'll drop the MinEF to the point that it's possible to get a dud that won't cripple you at that level from time to time. Ideally, at 7-10m you'd take some moderate damage, too.
tater
I could be wrong, I'm not much on physics or naval warfare, but is it possible that if your too close, there is not enough of a shockwave effect to damage the boat much? I thought real DC's were designed to kill with the shockwave, not the explosion. That might explain one thing. You are lowering the radius, but in effect your actually lowering the shockwave force. Make any sense, or am I just rambling?
My understanding is this:
The weapon has a range of damage it can do, randomly picked between minEF, and maxEF (for a stock DC, 170 and 230).
The weapon has 2 ranges, MinRadius, and MaxRadius. from distance = 0 to MinRadius the blast does 100% of the damage randomly selected (a number between 170 and 230 for stock DCs). From MinRadius to MaxRadius, the blast decreases to 0 at MaxRadius.
So a DC explodes and does 200 damage out to 4.5m (stock), and from 4.5 to 40m (stock) it reduces to 0. For example at 39m it barely does anything, while at 20m it likely does around 100 damage in this example.
In RL, closer was considered better. In the case of hedgehogs, they were contact devices, so they could have smaller warheads and still be effective. The bottom line is that inside some radius (not sure what), even a 100kg Type 95 should be nearly 100% fatal to the sub.
The shockwave (concussion) is important in the case of DCs since water transmits them so well. Water is only very slightly compressible (max density at 4 degrees C). Being too close isn't really an issue, the goal is to impart energy to the target.
For reference (largely my own):
AirDepthCharge:
MinEF:100
MaxEF:200
AP:0
MinRadius:1
MaxRadius:25
Bomb500kg:
MinEF:100
MaxEF:200
AP:35
MinRadius:2
MaxRadius:30
Bomb250kg:
MinEF:80
MaxEF:150
AP:20
MinRadius:1
MaxRadius:25
Bomb100kg:
MinEF:40
MaxEF:100
AP:10
MinRadius:0.5
MaxRadius:20
AirTorpedo:
MinEF:100
MaxEF:200
AP:15
MinRadius:0.5
MaxRadius:20
HedgeHog:
MinEF:50
MaxEF:100
AP:20
MinRadius:2
MaxRadius:4
While bombs could be expected to have AP capability in the usual way we think of it (not the game way), there is no reason for a hedgehog to have this at all (the ability to penetrate armor due to Kinetic Energy, and I don't think they used shaped charges). The reason presumably is to model the increased damage due to contact detonation.
None the less, as you can see from the bombs, they also have wide areas of effect. As a result, you take AP enhanced damage even if the bomb is a near miss.
The bombs might need reworking, too, looking at the values, lol. And we all know that damage to the sub in surface combats shows they are little battleships, my DC control teams fix internal damage due to 5 inch shells faster than a DD can dish them out.
Maybe the weapons are right, and the subs are grossly too strong...
tater
OK, so it was my understanding that within MinRadius the damage went to the total sub hitpoints.
It was also my understanding that when total hitpoints=0, the sub sinks.
So I made a new DC. I set minradius to 9, and max to 18. Otherwise stock.
I got a good, near contact hit. Did a ton of damage to 1 compartment, otherwise, pretty similar to stock (which would have damaged 3 compartments probably)..
I save. Exit and check save. The damage show for hull integrity (which is a % of total hitpoints? 0.00000
When I tested a super DC, and even stock, a close hit changed the damage= to 0.6666 or so.
Wonder what's going on... I had expected the larger minradius to mean that hits would take out total hitpoints from farther away.
tater
From another thread, but instructive:
Der Teddy Bar Said:
I hope this assists you some.
How Zones and 3D objects interact
The scenario…
We have 2 zones that are 20m long x 10m high x 3m deep which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ‘hit’ from one side.
The armour value on Zone 1 is set to 50 so that no 4” shell, even at maximum HP will cause any damage.
The armour value on Zone 2 is set to 15 so that any hit from 4” shell, even a minimum HP will cause damage.
The blast radius for the 4” shell is set to Min 2m, Max 10m, the actual shell hit/s are HP 25 & Blast Radius of 10 metres.
The hits…
When the shell hits Zone 1 – The shell hits to Zone 1 result in no damage to Zone 1 or Zone 2 as the armour value had not been defeated.
When the shell hits Zone 2 – The shell hits to Zone 2 result in damage to Zone 2 as the armour has been defeated; BUT the armour only gets checked once and because Zone 2 is within the damage radius Zone 2 has now been damaged!
The same scenario occurs between the 3D object and the zone.
With the submarine’s armour value at 25, if a shell, in this case a 4” with an AP of 25 were to hit near by then in most instances this will result in damage being taken by the submarine and the nearby zone if the zone is less than 4 metres from the blast point.
RE: in most instances this will result in damage being taken; The reason I say this is because the AP value is dynamic but based upon the specified AP value.
The in game AP value is AP x PT + HPValue/ALF; The PT value is randomly generated and can be a + or – and from 0 up to the Zones.cfg specified value.
PT = Penetration Threshold=0.2 ; ALF = Armor Level Factor=4
The results of this mean that for the 4” AP shell with the AP value of 25 and a HP range of 10 to 25, then using the maximum PT values the armour that will be penetrated for each HP
HP ~ -2PT ~0PT ~+2PT
25 ~ 26.25 ~ 31.25 ~ 36.25
24 ~ 26.00 ~ 31.00 ~ 36.00
23 ~ 25.75 ~ 30.75 ~ 35.75
22 ~ 25.50 ~ 30.50 ~ 35.50
21 ~ 25.25 ~ 30.25 ~ 35.25
20 ~ 25.00 ~ 30.00 ~ 35.00
19 ~ 24.75 ~ 29.75 ~ 34.75
18 ~ 24.50 ~ 29.50 ~ 34.50
17 ~ 24.25 ~ 29.25 ~ 34.25
16 ~ 24.00 ~ 29.00 ~ 34.00
15 ~ 23.75 ~ 28.75 ~ 33.75
14 ~ 23.50 ~ 28.50 ~ 33.50
13 ~ 23.25 ~ 28.25 ~ 33.25
12 ~ 23.00 ~ 28.00 ~ 33.00
11 ~ 22.75 ~ 27.75 ~ 32.75
10 ~ 22.50 ~ 27.50 ~ 32.50
If we have the situation of a 3D object (armour value of 25) which has 2 Zones (armour level of 15) where Zone 1 is larger than the 3D object and Zone 2 is smaller than the 3D object then this is how, assuming that the blast radius is not large enough to reach the ‘other’ zone, that the damage would or would not occur.
If the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit Zone 1, then the zone and the 3D object would take damage. However if the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit the 3D object where Zone 2 is located then neither the 3D object or Zone 2 would be damaged.
If the 3D object was the conning tower and Zone 2 was the Zone/s TowerWatch and/or Flak then the crew would not be affected.
Tater, do you have any test missions you've made for checking things out?
If so, can you post them and tell me where to install them? I have the mod installed now, so I could run some tests and post the observations for you.
I might update the beta in a little while with some new things---like early war DC throwers using type 95s instead of the big type 2s.
I'll put a test mission in the JSGME when I do.
tater
So if the minradius is at 9, maybe it's like a wave effect, greatest damage at 9.
blast<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<9>>>>>>>>>>>>18
min damage<<<<<<<<Max damage>>>>>>No Damage
have you tried setting the minradius to 1? I'm too lazy right now to reread everything.
I really hope you get this working right!
Actually, what is needed is this. There is a threshhold at which no damage gets done at all.
Subs have armor of 24 or 25 depending on the sub. The ALF is 4, so you need to do 101 to do any damage at all.
If the MinRadius is set to 5 and the Max is 25, you can easily see what happens.
Say the DC does 200 when it explodes (randomly generated between 170 and 230 for a stock DC). Out to 5m it will do 200. The sub gets damaged. Between 5 and 25m, the damage drops. It's 0 at 25m, so assuming it drops linearly that means that 10m from the edge of the 100% circle (which is 5m in radius) the damage should be 100. That's 15m from the blast. So slightly below 15m, it will do 101, and actually do damage to the sub. This radius will vary based upon the random number pulled between the min and max EF values. of the charge did 202 damage, it would be exactly 101 at 15m, for example.
The current version is coming soon for testing, and includes this. I've actually upped the damage, because I still feel they are too weak up close at stock value. We'll see in testing.
This version includes 4 new DCs (same as previous version), 4 roll racks (same), 2 new K guns (one for type 95, one 110kg type 2), and 4 new Y guns (2 type 9s, 2 110kg type 2s).
This has allowed more complex evolutions of DC capability even though the charges are not terribly different in capability. Not only will the type of DC throw vary by month for a class, but the throwers also have different DC loads.
Since 2 of the same type of ship can have different cfg dates, you might have 1 Minekaze attacking you with 36 DCs, while the one helping him has only 30, for example.
I'll try and get this out the door later today or this evening.
For now I have not used the AP idea, I'd like to exhaust "standard" DC techniques first.
tater
I might update the beta in a little while with some new things---like early war DC throwers using type 95s instead of the big type 2s.
I'll put a test mission in the JSGME when I do.
tater
Cool on part one and thanks on part 2- lot easier than posting one for download:up:
First SH4 career using manual targetting.
Using ICL 0.78 plus IJN 0.9, lots of eye & ear candy.
Dec 10 1941 first patrol out of Manila, NE of Luzon about midnight i found a huge almost stionary task force.
Sank 4 passenger carriers, 2 light cruisers & 1 destroyer.
Was depth charged through the attack 5 or 6 times but not damaged at all.
Thought i got off lightly.
Got silver star.
Thank you for your mods.
David H
IJN DC Mod, version 0.91
DOWNLOAD:
http://mpgtext.net/subshare/632IJN%20DCs%20v%200.91.rar
This version includes 2 new K guns (one for type 95, one for a 110kg type 2), and 4 new Y guns (2 type 9s, 2 110kg type 2s).
DCRack_TYPE95_1 = 18 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE95_2 = 10 Type 95 DCs (same DC, lower load carried)
DCRack_TYPE02_1 = 18 Type 2 DCs (110kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE02_2 = 6 Type 95/2 DCs -- parachute retarded 95s at ~100kg (I left them damage light to avoid sterns getting blown off on shallow drops)
KGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
KGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs
YGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (3 per side of Y) (100kg warhead)
YGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs (5 per side of Y) (100kg warhead)
YGun_JP_04 = 8 Type 2 DCs (4 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)
YGun_JP_05 = 12 Type 2 DCs (6 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)
For each DC:
Type 95:
Fall rate: 1.9 (1 for the retarded version)
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 170
MaxEF: 220
AP:0
MinRadius: 4
MaxRadius: 16 (~100 damage at 10m)
(MaxRadius = 11 for retarded version, again, to minimize blowups)
Type 2 (110kg):
Fall rate: 3
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 190
MaxEF: 230
AP:0
MinRadius: 4
MaxRadius: 16.5 (~100 damage at 10m)
Type 2 (162kg):
Fall rate: 3
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 200
MaxEF: 340
AP:0
MinRadius: 4.5
MaxRadius: 25 (~100 damage at 15m)
Let me know how it works.
What 0.91 will do to gameplay:
The "easier" gameplay still applies in terms of the number of DCs that will be dropped on you before the escorts run out. As for lethality... vs stock, I think you will still see less damage. Vs RFB and TM, you will see more damage---but still far fewer DCs dropped into the bargain. The early war DCs are now about what you are used to in RFB/TM. The later war (1943+) large type 2 DCs are more lethal. Their min damage is slightly higher than what you are used to, and the max is 50% higher.
One-hit kills are still extremely unlikely in my testing with the type 95s and light type 2s. They are a little more likely with the large type 2 DCs.
Overall, I think this really plays best with TM, or another mod that might improve the sensors. If you are using TM with sensors turned down (other than visual at night), I would reccomend trying "stock" TM, with the DC mod as the lethality mitigating mod instead of nerfed sensors.
There may be a problem with the Type02_2 DC not doing hull damage. I'm messign with it. OTOH, that DC is amazingly rare even in my campaign (it's the slow falling one). It was really put in in anticipation of some smaller subchasers not yet built.
I was testing hedgehogs last night. I know the IJN didn't use them, but I had wondered about getting merchants to use them, and also about the depth setting. I know they are contact, but their sim has the depth set to 2500, and the aim error at 300. I think the idea is that if they don't hit something, they'll blow at the set depth. Where this would be useful in tricking the AI would be a hedgehog that looks like a DC rack (or k gun, etc), but fires a single hedgehog bomb that happens to point at the DC model, etc. The idea is that the game thinks it's a Hhog, but it's really a DC. Then we dump the contact fuse, and the DC goes off at the aimed depth regardless of what the AI thinks. Set it to 45m +-15, and you have a RL IJN DC.
Sadly, merchants won't fire them.
Another possible Hhog mod I'm looking at is this. Replace the 3d model with a mortar model (can't be too hard, mortars are fairly simple looking). Have a Hhog that shoots just 1 bomb at a time. Set the range to a couple thousand yards. We'd then have an IJN ASW mortar.
A 15 cm (5.9") ASW mortar was developed for transports and merchant ships. This was in a cradle mounting allowing 360 degree traverse and had recoil and runout cylinders. The projectile weighed about 60 lbs. (27 kg) and could range out to a maximum of 4,500 yards (4,100 m).
The Navy 81 mm mortar was also carried by many escorts, firing standard projectiles.
That's why I wanted Hhog to fire from merchants.
tater
leovampire
10-15-07, 02:54 PM
There may be a problem with the Type02_2 DC not doing hull damage. I'm messign with it. OTOH, that DC is amazingly rare even in my campaign (it's the slow falling one). It was really put in in anticipation of some smaller subchasers not yet built.
I was testing hedgehogs last night. I know the IJN didn't use them, but I had wondered about getting merchants to use them, and also about the depth setting. I know they are contact, but their sim has the depth set to 2500, and the aim error at 300. I think the idea is that if they don't hit something, they'll blow at the set depth. Where this would be useful in tricking the AI would be a hedgehog that looks like a DC rack (or k gun, etc), but fires a single hedgehog bomb that happens to point at the DC model, etc. The idea is that the game thinks it's a Hhog, but it's really a DC. Then we dump the contact fuse, and the DC goes off at the aimed depth regardless of what the AI thinks. Set it to 45m +-15, and you have a RL IJN DC.
Sadly, merchants won't fire them.
Another possible Hhog mod I'm looking at is this. Replace the 3d model with a mortar model (can't be too hard, mortars are fairly simple looking). Have a Hhog that shoots just 1 bomb at a time. Set the range to a couple thousand yards. We'd then have an IJN ASW mortar.
A 15 cm (5.9") ASW mortar was developed for transports and merchant ships. This was in a cradle mounting allowing 360 degree traverse and had recoil and runout cylinders. The projectile weighed about 60 lbs. (27 kg) and could range out to a maximum of 4,500 yards (4,100 m).
The Navy 81 mm mortar was also carried by many escorts, firing standard projectiles.
That's why I wanted Hhog to fire from merchants.
tater
If you look in the SIM file for a DD you will see how they are set up to to depth charge run's and usage. You need that in the Ship's SIM file to make it happen as well as putting the equipment on the boat.
I can only see what I see with S3D. They ahve the same (in S3D) looking "cmdr_AIShip" stuff.
Course I don't actually want merchants to make runs, more just fire them off.
Note that I can change the unit type of a merchant to 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4, and it will happy become an escort and use them, with no sim changes at all.
What is the part you think controls this outside of unit type? If you take a DD, and set it to a unit type that is NOT 0 to 4, it won't use them, either.
tater
leovampire
10-15-07, 03:08 PM
I can only see what I see with S3D. They ahve the same (in S3D) looking "cmdr_AIShip" stuff.
Course I don't actually want merchants to make runs, more just fire them off.
Note that I can change the unit type of a merchant to 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4, and it will happy become an escort and use them, with no sim changes at all.
What is the part you think controls this outside of unit type? If you take a DD, and set it to a unit type that is NOT 0 to 4, it won't use them, either.
tater
And see what is missing that will make the ship drop the chanrges in the water. Also if a ship has no detection equipment I don't think it will try anything either. Plane's only do it because they go by the Detection report of a DD but the ship's might have to have a way to detect a sub and also the sim telling it what to do. After all it's a game so every thing has to link together. You can give a plane a bomb loadout but unless you tell it in the sim file how to use it nothing will happen.
Well in all my merchant DC tests I mod the merchant both to include the DC launcher, and I throw in a new sns file that adds the top of the line hydrophone and sonar devices, so I'm sure they'll see me getting in their way noisily ;)
I just opened the 2 sims (a merchant and a DD) and there are no differences in what S3D shows that seem obvious to me.
It seems controled by the UnitType parameter, not the sim, IMO.
In other words, the cmdr_AIShip ship is the same for all, and whereever cmdr_AIShip actually is, THAT is the file that decides. It compares the unit type and decides how to act. If the unit type is 0-4, it acts like an escort. I can do the same with a BB. throw some DC racks on Yamato's stern (Musashi got such racks refitted to her fantail in RL), and she doesn't use them. Change her type to 4, she's a big, fat DD and acts like one.
No sim changes at all.
Wonder if type=13 will drop DCs (aux cruiser)?
tater
leovampire
10-15-07, 03:18 PM
Well in all my merchant DC tests I mod the merchant both to include the DC launcher, and I throw in a new sns file that adds the top of the line hydrophone and sonar devices, so I'm sure they'll see me getting in their way noisily ;)
I just opened the 2 sims (a merchant and a DD) and there are no differences in what S3D shows that seem obvious to me.
It seems controled by the UnitType parameter, not the sim, IMO.
In other words, the cmdr_AIShip ship is the same for all, and whereever cmdr_AIShip actually is, THAT is the file that decides. It compares the unit type and decides how to act. If the unit type is 0-4, it acts like an escort. I can do the same with a BB. throw some DC racks on Yamato's stern (Musashi got such racks refitted to her fantail in RL), and she doesn't use them. Change her type to 4, she's a big, fat DD and acts like one.
No sim changes at all.
Wonder if type=13 will drop DCs (aux cruiser)?
tater
Okay my bad sorry if I threw you off track then. Question though does a ship have to be designated an escort to defend or attack? I mean if a Merchant ship uses a deck gun why can't it be set up to use a DC rack without changing it's designation?
Changing a merchant to type=13 CTDs.
Hmmm.
tater
Yeah, exactly ^^^ they shoot AA and deck guns at ships. It must be in the sim (?) for the DC, actually.
Somewhere the DC "guns" have somethign that says "only types 0-4 can shoot me!"
I looked, but haven't figured it out.
Quite a few merchants got Y throwers, too. They didn't actively try and prosecute subs, they just spazzed out and fired them, lol.
tater
skwasjer
10-15-07, 04:39 PM
Be advised, S3D does not implement every single bit/byte in all game files (in which case it just preserves it). Specifically, certain Node chunks and also properties chunks contain data that you can't see/change in S3D yet. I don't know if there's parts that you need that are not editable right now though. :cry:
leovampire
10-15-07, 04:44 PM
Be advised, S3D does not implement every single bit/byte in all game files (in which case it just preserves it). Specifically, certain Node chunks and also properties chunks contain data that you can't see/change in S3D yet. I don't know if there's parts that you need that are not editable right now though. :cry:
I can see in the Text part of a Hex editor some stuff about DC usuage in the sim file that S3D dosn't show.
Got Type 13 to work (was a mission error, I was rushing). Didn't shoot the DC or hedgehog, so it really is just types 0-4.
tater
ironkross
10-21-07, 03:29 PM
ATM I am stuck in the middle of a patrol. If the IJN doesn't get me first and my patience holds, I will install and use w/ TM on the next patrol. It sounds like a nice improvement; thanks a bunch.
Anyone have a clue why even the stock Y gun only shoots in 1 direction? Ain't much of a "Y" is it, more like a "/" gun.
BTW, Kaibokans with 10ish throwers and 120 DCs are scary. Even with stock sensors.
tater
panthercules
10-26-07, 01:51 PM
Anyone have a clue why even the stock Y gun only shoots in 1 direction? Ain't much of a "Y" is it, more like a "/" gun.
I believe that would make them a "K" gun, actually - I did find the following on Wikipedia, for what it's worth (not much sometimes, but this does comport with what I remember reading somewhere else before, a long time ago):
The main disadvantage of the Y-gun is that it must be mounted on the centerline of a ship's deck, which may otherwise be occupied by superstructure, masts, or gun turrets. The K-gun, made standard in 1942, replaced the Y-gun as the primary depth charge projector. K-guns could be mounted on the periphery of a ship's deck, thus freeing up valuable centerline space.
I don't think that piece was focused on IJN DC throwers, but I suspect they may have reached the same conclusions as the Allied navies on this point.
Makes me think - when you added your supposedly "Y" guns, did you put then on the centerline with unobstructed firing arcs to both sides? If not, maybe that could explain why they only fired in one direction?
The STOCK Y gun is broken. The only reason the subchaser seems to fire on both sides is that one Y gun point left, the other points right.
Actually, DCs have no collision node, so they ignore hull anyway. You can place them inside the superstructure, they'll still shoot.
The simple work around is to alternate them, but it means that you can never have a single Y thrower on a ship, always 2, one shooting to port, the other to starboard.
tater
Thank You! This helps a Great Deal!
If it's true that the IJN never threw the 162kg type 2, then I can alter the stock K and Y guns to fire the lighter type 2 (mine is 110kg). This would give 2 more variants in load.
DCRack-SH4 = 18 Type 2 DCs (162kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE95_1 = 18 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE95_2 = 10 Type 95 DCs
DCRack_TYPE02_1 = 18 Type 2 DCs (110kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE02_2 = 6 Type 95/2 DCs -- parachute retarded 95s at ~100kg (I left them damage light to avoid sterns getting blown off on shallow drops)
KGun (stock) = 11 Type 2 DCs (162kg warhead)
KGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
KGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs
YGun (stock) = 10 Type 2 DCs (162kg warhead)
YGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (3 per side of Y) (100kg warhead)
YGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs (5 per side of Y)
YGun_JP_04 = 8 Type 2 DCs (4 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)
YGun_JP_05 = 12 Type 2 DCs (6 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)
If I changed the those stock throwers to the 110kg version, I could set the loads 12 for the K, and maybe 10 for the Y. The difference I have between the type 95 and smaller type 2 is pretty much only the fall speed, the damage values are nearly identical. As such, they can certainly be mixed up to make the loads variable on the escorts.
Example:
An Subchaser has 2 Y throwers. It could carry a total of 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, or 24 DCs in the throwers in addition to the 2 roll racks. If the Y racks worked properly, you could have loads with 1 missing as well, but you always need 2 right now, one shoots port, one starboard. The 2 roll racks could possibly carry (with loadouts allowed missing a rack): 10, 18, 20, 28, 36. That means if we made some variant loadouts for the SC, you'd not know if it carried 22 total, 60, or something in between ).
There is another way that this mod mixes up the loadouts, BTW, and it's already there, not just an idea like loadouts. The DC capabilities is already built into the eqp file as a date-based evolution. So a ship might have no K throwers, then in August 1943, it gets 2 throwers holding 12 DCs. When the campaign or mission builder sets that escort, he has a choice for the configuration date of each ship. It could be mid 1944, and I can specify that a certain convoy escort has a April 1943 cfg date. it will NOT have the K throwers. There is no reason to expect each to be the latest and greatest. This requires no addition work aside from the campaign editing.
tater
Actually--I can't be sure Japanese K-guns didn't throw the heavy charges. I assumed that based on what the Allies did (and possibly made an a**of me :lol:). And I'm wondering if the sim can handle a escort tossing off 2 types of dc at the same time. If they both reference the same memory address, the 1st one to go off would probably be used for all subsequent charges. I've run into problems like that when modding other sims.
I've not had a problem, I have several ships with various types aboard at once, and they have different fall speeds, so I can tell.
That's good! Having different dc's on 1 escort is a good thing IMO.
0.92 up front page. Only change for now are the fixes for the CTD with the chute-retarded DC.
Downloading and will check it out. I'll let you know how it's working for me as soon as I can.
Edit: If there is anything specific you'd like me to do testing this, let me know. For now, I'll check them out in normal game play and see if I notice a difference.
It's the same, just fixed the CTD for people.
I was just working on trying to get a rack to drop DC bombs instead, but the DCs just floated in the air behind the DD. Didn't CTD, though. I think it's buried in params S3D cannot read yet...
tater
:up: right give it a go tonight....back to the Burma Convoy Mission, I taunted the DD's to hard last night and they got really nasty and blew me out of the water at 220 feet, doing wiggles and spurts.:up:
Did these fleet boats really come up from depth to periscope depth this quick? I wonder?:nope:
Wilcke
Did these fleet boats really come up from depth to periscope depth this quick? I wonder?:nope:
Wilcke
No--they didn't. Especially at 2 knots :-?.
So far no damage in normal play. I've been bracketed a couple times to--lots of rocking but no water in the boat. Probably had about 50 dropped on me so far that were close enough to rock the boat.
Wilcke- tater's latest fixes are already in RFB and RSRD.
Peto- I t kind of caries, I've played the same mission and one time been DC'd like crazy with little damage and the next time got taken out by one DC run- same type escort both times.
Will look and see if there's a way to slow down the surfacing rate w/o changing the dive rate. There's only a ballast flood rate, not a pump rate, and I don't think there's access to changing the angle for rise on the bow and stern planes in the sim file, so don't know how much is possible. Will have to check out the other files.
BTW Wilcke, in RFB the dive rate is faster than stock, but slower than TM.
Peto- I t kind of caries, I've played the same mission and one time been DC'd like crazy with little damage and the next time got taken out by one DC run- same type escort both times.
That's a good thing :yep:! I hate to always get the poop knocked out of me but I also like to be kept honest. A little fear can be a good thing :hmm:...
Did these fleet boats really come up from depth to periscope depth this quick? I wonder?:nope:
Wilcke
No--they didn't. Especially at 2 knots :-?.
Thats what I thought, its just to quick how you can be at 240 feet, and slink away from the Escorts and just scootch back up to Peri depth.
Does anyone know what the actual time was to get up to periscope depth from the deep?
Wilcke
Does anyone know what the actual time was to get up to periscope depth from the deep?
Wilcke
Not for sure but from what I've read/heard it would take at least 15 minutes at low speed while remaining silent.
Another reason submarine crews were reluctant to come back up was hull popping. The change in pressure allowed the hull to expand--in essence--the reverse of hull creaking. That was Very Easy for a passive listening enemy to hear.
Does anyone know what the actual time was to get up to periscope depth from the deep?
Wilcke
Not for sure but from what I've read/heard it would take at least 15 minutes at low speed while remaining silent.
Another reason submarine crews were reluctant to come back up was hull popping. The change in pressure allowed the hull to expand--in essence--the reverse of hull creaking. That was Very Easy for a passive listening enemy to hear.
Thanks, see this gets more interesting as you learn more:hmm: ....anyone for modding this.....ermmmmmmmm volunters...:damn: I am sure it will be fun :damn: and easy :damn: !
Wilcke
Well tater, I hope you're happy. Because of you (certainly not my skippering ;)) the S-41 and her entire crew is now Over-Due, Presumed Lost. Actually, I don't have to presume it :shifty:!
I got caught while going deep and took a nasty shot that flooded the forward torpedo room. The crew valiantly tried to stem the flood but that water was stronger. We got it back up to 70 feet before the final plunge. The really sad thing is...
...I liked it :rock: And considering the spot I got myself in, the result seemed just about right!!!
:up:
Did a few tests (using peto's prolonged DC attack mod) in addition to this.
I was actually trying to get attacked, used the tokyo-saipan convoy mission, and let them know I was there by sinking a few of their charges. The more deliberate DCing was good, they didn't run out quickly, and also it allowed me to watch the DCs without having 10 rain down at once. Rocked around a bit, no hull damage showing, then I got shacked by 1 (almost half explosion effect in the hull), and near-missed (explosion visual just past hull) by a 2d simultaneously and took 70% hull damage. Remarkably, it was not instantly fatal by a long shot. Damage control managed to repair some stuff, but my forward flooding was faster than I could deal with because the pump was damaged. Some fairly near misses (6-10m) damaged many systems and caused flooding, but no hull damage. Nice demonstration that outside MinRadius no hull damage is done. That flooding prooved too much and the boat took a dive after a while. Still, All told I was badly damaged by 4 DCs or so before I sank outright.
Assuming they were mostly in the 100kg range, it's not too bad. If the 1st 2 were 162kg bombs, I should have been quickly dead.
tater
I'm amazed at how the AI changes the dynamics of DC attacks. More deliberate, fewer ashcans per pass, etc.
I'm not sure a slower reload time will make a huge difference. It might also be because I picked a mission with so many escorts that they were having to back up and take turn to try and kill me, lol.
tater
I'm amazed at how the AI changes the dynamics of DC attacks. More deliberate, fewer ashcans per pass, etc.
I'm not sure a slower reload time will make a huge difference. It might also be because I picked a mission with so many escorts that they were having to back up and take turn to try and kill me, lol.
tater
The DC's sound great tater! A couple shots like that and you have to break off your patrol and head for the barn. That should happen more often than getting sunk IMO.
I've noticed the escorts being more deliberate in the Prolonged Attack mod. I think it's because they have to open the range to try to reaquire. A mix of escorts with regular loadouts and modified ones would be very interesting. Another element of not knowing what you're getting into.
I don't want to say this prematurely but it seems that things are shaping up nicely. This sim is gonna rock!
:rock:
I'm amazed at how the AI changes the dynamics of DC attacks. More deliberate, fewer ashcans per pass, etc.
I'm not sure a slower reload time will make a huge difference. It might also be because I picked a mission with so many escorts that they were having to back up and take turn to try and kill me, lol.
tater
This is working well, the last two nights I have run the Burma Convoy Mission first without your mod then with.....nice contrast. I used the outside camera to watch the three DD's hunt and DC. Much more realistic than the "raining" ashcans of the night before that was hilarious to watch.:lol:
Well done and thanks! A must have, I will now see if Peto's extended DD attack is compatible with this in some way for my "flavored to taste"; this is actually a really fun process.:up:
Laters!
Wilcke
Might try adding an AP value, though I was saving this as a last-resort.
Stock DCs in contact are really brutal. As I said a few pages back the maxradius is a critical value.
As I recall from other DM threads, the radius needs to cross possibly multiple zones where one zone actually screens another. That might be the critical factor.
So with a 40m radius DC, it crosses the barriers and damages stuff. The down side is that it over damages the sub from distant "hits" IMO.
Looks like the radius needs to be on the same scale size as a sub length to be really nasty sans AP.
tater
I can't say I envy the amount and type of testing you have to go through for this... If you want me to help out with certain settings let me know. I can tweak the files here as you indicate. The downside being--you already have a visual benchmark and I might "see" things differently.
The AP value is interesting. Are you thinking of values in whole numbers or 0.1s?
If you read up the thread, I was testing AP values on par with the sub's armor value, 25.
BOOM.
Heheh.
tater
Brainstorming (probability of useless=HIGH): Do internal Components have a damage/hit point rating? For example: Does it take X amount of damage to bonk a Diesel or a Pump? Could these components themselves be resisting damage and creating an X Factor that makes test results so variable?
Yes.
And so opens the can of worms. Search for redwine's threads about his "die slowly" mod. It's a huge can of worms.
Regarding the diesel engine damage problem (there are 4, and you should be able to move with any of them working, but in game there are 2 that will take damage alone and leave you dead in the water, end of career). One idea would be to armor it quite a bit so the damage threshhold to even hurt it was such that only a direct hit on that part of the hull by a DC would ever have a chance. The gun DMs would be increased (or their AP values) so that surface actions would always be able to damage them with decent deck guns.
The problem is such a mod becomes less "portable" and requires a "supermod" sensibility.
tater
DeepIron
12-04-07, 01:59 PM
The problem is such a mod becomes less "portable" and requires a "supermod" sensibility.
Gads... with the proliferation of new and updated mods, the concept of installing a SuperMod is looking more and more appealing... I can see where "One Stop Shopping" would be good for a noobie or someone who simply wants "it all in one package". I follow the mod threads pretty close but it's a chore at times and there is SO much going on!
I'm running 4 complete SH4 installs using JSMGE, MultiSH4 and JTxE for support:
A. Plain jane patched to v1.4
B. Copy of A with TM 1.7
C. Copy of A with Sobers Super Mod
D. Copy of A for my own work and other miscellanous mods...
Thank goodness for cheap hard drive real estate!
I may bump the MaxRadius up a bit for all of them. Maybe ~20m (from 16-16.5)for the 100kg range DCs, and ~30 for the 162kg (from 25m).
I need more lethality.
On the plus side, I've managed to get the diesels protected from all but the loss of the "father" compartment itself. So when the engine room takes 100% hitpoint damage, the diesels die (that's what I am assuming, anyway).
That might not go far enough, either.
tater
I may bump the MaxRadius up a bit for all of them. Maybe ~20m (from 16-16.5)for the 100kg range DCs, and ~30 for the 162kg (from 25m).
I need more lethality.
On the plus side, I've managed to get the diesels protected from all but the loss of the "father" compartment itself. So when the engine room takes 100% hitpoint damage, the diesels die (that's what I am assuming, anyway).
That might not go far enough, either.
tater
It sounds a lot better than what we had before though! Good work tater!!!
leovampire
12-06-07, 07:26 PM
Doing the Midway Mission was great after using NVDrifters changes for the depth charge shake mod and camera work.
And eventualy the 30 DD's did run out of depth charges :rotfl: :rotfl:
So I will be using it again of course in my game.
Cool, glad you like it leo!
Having encouraged many DDs and kaibokans to sink I don't know how many boats lately, I've been surprised at how many VERY NEAR misses gave me no more than "deck gun damaged!" results and no hull % damage (before the % indicator I was worried a lot about cumulative damage). While I still think I was overly beat up by the 40m stock versions (enough to damage a sub at ~20m most of the time), I think that the range does need to be upped a little. It will make the close hits worse as they intersect more zones, and there will be a little more incremental damage, which I like.
A 30m radius will result in SOME damage (the minimum that registers) out as far as maybe 17m. More serious damage at 10m, but nothing like fatal. Testing tonight a little, then I'll release a new version (stock, TM/ICL versions, and since I don't want to muck with lurker's eqps (and none are changed anyway save akizuki) I can make a RSRD version as the only eqp changed will be to fix akizuki.).
tater
leovampire
12-06-07, 08:28 PM
Cool, glad you like it leo!
Having encouraged many DDs and kaibokans to sink I don't know how many boats lately, I've been surprised at how many VERY NEAR misses gave me no more than "deck gun damaged!" results and no hull % damage (before the % indicator I was worried a lot about cumulative damage). While I still think I was overly beat up by the 40m stock versions (enough to damage a sub at ~20m most of the time), I think that the range does need to be upped a little. It will make the close hits worse as they intersect more zones, and there will be a little more incremental damage, which I like.
A 30m radius will result in SOME damage (the minimum that registers) out as far as maybe 17m. More serious damage at 10m, but nothing like fatal. Testing tonight a little, then I'll release a new version (stock, TM/ICL versions, and since I don't want to muck with lurker's eqps (and none are changed anyway save akizuki) I can make a RSRD version as the only eqp changed will be to fix akizuki.).
tater
Having 20 to 30 DC's droped on me at a time from all the DD's was nut's and took forever to repair the sub and try and stay afloat so to speak so no need to increase damage range on my part! :rotfl: :rotfl:
It was an amazing thing to stay in the interior camera views with the Adjustments I made from NVDrifters DC shake mod. I felt like I was in the U-571 movie during the making of it and kept away from the Bulk heads. :rock:
All the crew with no shirts on trying to stop the leaks and get the pumps working to get the water out and pray the DC's missed long enough to get the sub repaired and water pumped out.
Another words I liked the old work just fine! :up:
Cool. As I said someplace up in the thread, or maybe it was my "lethailty poll," I plan on making a few versions available for people. I think it's one of those things that is very hard to test in a controlled way, and at a certain level, it's personal taste.
So I think .92 might make a decent "slighly less nasty" version, and upping the radii for a "slightly more nasty" version.
I'm very interested in feedback on if the escorts run out of ashcans.
I think something like Peto's mod is pretty useful for making the DC attacks slower, and more deliberate which will stretch out the ammo. Tough call vs TM...
Ducimus
12-06-07, 11:04 PM
RE: DC lethality
have you tried lowering the HPs and armor on the sub itself? That has a far reaching, and positive effect with the subs overall "place in the world" so to speak.
You know, I haven't. So far the entirety of my sub-modding has been (with the exception of some deck gun experiments) my attempts to make the diesels impossible to wreck via DC attack.
I'm certainly open to it, because the subs are overstrong, IMO. OTOH, I think it is not as simple as the basic HPs, it's every single node in the zon, the zones, files, etc. All multiplied by the number of subs. Daunting.
tater
Ducimus
12-06-07, 11:25 PM
TRY IT.
Humor me for a minute.
Take whatever sub your using now, and let a merchant or destroyer shell the piss out of it. Take note of your hull integrity.
Then take the same sub, iopen up just its ZON file - reduce its HPs to 300 (assuming gato with stock of 600), and reduce its armor from 25 to 20.
Then let yourself be shelled again. Then look at your hull integrity.
component wise, its not much of a difference, because its the hull your reducing, not the components. (i think :shifty: )
edit:
oh yea, dont forget to take its crash speed, and divide it by half since your reducing the HPs by half (this is important for depth keeping - insta crunch)
Divide by 1/2, or half it?
OK, tried this. Was watching my hull % and learned something odd.
Only tested DC attack for the moment, BTW.
So anyway, MinRadius is 4.5m for the DCs in question. Within 4.5m, the entire EF value "rolled" is applied to the hull hitpoints, right. So a 162kg DC could possibly do 100% to the 300 HP Gato (modded down).
I get a hit well within 4.5m of the forward torpedo room. Wipes the room out, explosion mostly inside the sub. What do you think the hull damage % was after that? 40%? 80%? 99%?
How about 0%.
Did many more tests. Got shacked, and 1 DC took my hull to 98% damage! Other tests get shacked, 0% damage. WTF.
Hull damage seems like it is not to the HP within MinRadius of the HULL, it's within MinRadius of the CENTER of the sub. Just abaft the conning tower in the middle. Argh.
Gato is 93.6m long. MinRadius is 4.5m. That means to do any HP damage tot he overall sub, the DC need to go off in the middle of the sub in an area less than 10% of her length. Or maybe it's a middle zone or something. Perhaps werner has a clue since he groks the zon nodes.
claybirdd
12-07-07, 12:54 AM
ouch:huh:. If this is true than that sux. Is damage to a room applied at random or simply fore or aft?
DrBeast
12-07-07, 08:13 AM
I think it is not as simple as the basic HPs, it's every single node in the zon, the zones, files, etc. All multiplied by the number of subs. Daunting.
tater
My understanding is that you don't need to tweak each and every node in the .zon file, only the zones.cfg file. I was looking through the .zons the other day, and the only thing you might change in there is armor level, which is universally -1.
Divide by 1/2, or half it?
The higher the Crash Speed, the faster hull integrity is compromised. So it's halve the value, or divide by 2 ;)
-1 on the zon sends it to the zones file, correct? (I did divide by 2, BTW)
BTW, I'm not sure if I dislike my discovery about the HP damage only applied on hits near the geometric center of the boat. Part of my thinks that having a bonus for an amidships hit is an OK idea (the bubble would have to cause the boat to hog or sag, right?)
tater
Ducimus
12-07-07, 11:14 AM
Personnaly, i thought having compartment damage sans hull integrity loss was pretty cool.
Get bulkhead smashed, you start flooding. How now you have to go out of silent running and deal with the problem. Boat gets too heavy.. have to increase speed to maintain depth, or you sink. :p (also has the added bonus, of not being able to slug it out on the surface with destroyers, and expect to win, NSM or no NSM)
Personnaly, i thought having compartment damage sans hull integrity loss was pretty cool.
Get bulkhead smashed, you start flooding. How now you have to go out of silent running and deal with the problem. Boat gets too heavy.. have to increase speed to maintain depth, or you sink. :p (also has the added bonus, of not being able to slug it out on the surface with destroyers, and expect to win, NSM or no NSM)
This is a cool idea.....kind of an NSM for the subs...maybe...! It just gets better and better.
So far your weakened sub suggestion seems to work fairly well if you take an amidships hit it is brutal on HP. The interior damage is the same without it though, so for that it works just as well.
BTW, I've really noticed how even a tiny amount of water shipped forced me to move. I had stopped the boat to try and get a predictable drop on me and found myself sinking... got me thinking of the anti-hover concepts discussed earlier.
I also notice that in the zones both of the dielsel fuel areas have the same "father" compartment, the control room (I think, it's not in front of me). Wonder if it would make sense to move one of them to another compartment.
I also notice that in the zones both of the dielsel fuel areas have the same "father" compartment, the control room (I think, it's not in front of me). Wonder if it would make sense to move one of them to another compartment.
That makes sense to me. As long as you're thinking about that, would it be possible to make fuel leaks a "little" more common? That would also be a patrol ender. It would only be a ok thing though if the fuel bunkers were seperated (for obvious reasons).
I don't know what controls the rate of fuel loss though.
5B3. Fuel oil tanks. a. Normal fuel tanks. The normal fuel tanks are used only for the storage of fuel oil.
They are usually located toward the extremities of the boat rather than close to amidships. They vary in size, but
normally have capacities of from 10,000 to 20,000 gallons each. Most modern submarines have four of these tanks.
In a typical installation (Figure 5-1 (http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/foldout/fig5-01.htm)) they are numbered No. 1, No. 2, No. 6, and No. 7.
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/img/fig5-01.jpg
I'd be afraid that they'd lose all your fuel too fast. If leaking was able to be set to be sort of slow, I'd
like to make 1 tank that leaked more easily, that would be cool. Perhaps the leaking rate is a function
of hit taken vs hitpoints for the tank, in which case the leaky tank could be very very hard to
destroy---give it 10,000 hitpoints, so a close DC only does 1% damage to it...
Then I wonder if leaking could be tied to an effect like a torp wake that the AI sees...
I'm thinking it would be hard to model. And it's not something important enough to detract from more immediate damage effects that you're currently doing imo. Perhaps for future consideration though...
I may start looking at some of these items more closely if the sonar mod works out. OTOH--maybe I should look at passive sensors and see what I can do there :hmm:.
Ducimus
12-07-07, 12:38 PM
>>I don't know what controls the rate of fuel loss though.
Have you tried experimenting with the fuel tank zones in the zones.cfg? I think there was a way to slow down the fuel loss.... (not sure), i jsut don't remember how to go about it.
There is an oil leak zone in there.
Found something interesting. I'm looking at Gato's zon file. In Zones.cfg, the 2 diesel engines have father=29. 29 is the diesel engine room. Fair enough. Look at the zon file, and there is no type=29 in there. There IS a type=201, which is fltEngineRoom (fleet engine room).
So in the zon, the damage points to the fleet boat engine room in zones, but the diesels point at a generic engine room.
Odd.
The problem for a zones neophyte like myself is understanding all the interactions.
I can certainly prevent damage to the diesels by massively upping their armor in zones.cfg. The game automatically destroys them when the compartment is toast though.
One thought is to point one Diesel at the [DieselEngineRoom] and the other at the [FltEngineRoom]. The zon only lists the latter, however. So will that work?
I could then armor the [DieselEngineRoom] compartment so that it doesn't get damaged, and I wouldn't also be protecting all the other stuff inside the engine room.
I'm certainly going to release a version with the radii bigger. Probably 20-25m for the 100-110kg DCs, and 25-30m for the 162.
Leo, it occurs to me that if you are very used to RFB and/or TM DCs, anything between there and stock will seem nasty (I realized almost all my play has been with reduced radius DCs, so I saw this effect myself). I've been testing stock DCs, and I'm leaning towards a lesser tweaking, at least for 1 version. Then folks can give me feedback.
The one benefit of the hull % indicator is that I am now clear that I'm not seeing cumulative damage from distant DCs on the HULL. I am seeing it (I think) on the hitpoints of various systems, though they repair hitpoints.
I'm certainly going to release a version with the radii bigger. Probably 20-25m for the 100-110kg DCs, and 25-30m for the 162.
Leo, it occurs to me that if you are very used to RFB and/or TM DCs, anything between there and stock will seem nasty (I realized almost all my play has been with reduced radius DCs, so I saw this effect myself). I've been testing stock DCs, and I'm leaning towards a lesser tweaking, at least for 1 version. Then folks can give me feedback.
The one benefit of the hull % indicator is that I am now clear that I'm not seeing cumulative damage from distant DCs on the HULL. I am seeing it (I think) on the hitpoints of various systems, though they repair hitpoints.
If we wanted death wish overkill,we could play SHIII/GWX,IMO:down:
<edited for horrid math, kid was up 3 hours last night. Ugh.>
Like I said, there will be more than one version so folks can pick.
Upping the radius doesn't make them hugely nastier though, it just means more minor damage becomes possible.
The opposite end of the spectrum is sort of low damage, large radius---up to to a point.
It's important to remember that for the sub to sustain ANY damage, the hitpoints done needs to be greater than AFV*Armor. AFV=4, Armor=25. So if a DC does 99 damage at a given range, nothing at all happens to the sub.
The base damage ("EF" in game) is 170 to 230 for a stock DC (and my 100kg ones). That means at max it does 230 at the min radius. MinRadius is 4.5. If the max radius was increased to 24.5, there would be a 20m zone from 4.5 to 24.5 where the damage would drop from 230 to 0. In this example, even though the damage radius is set to 24.5, it will do ZERO damage past 15.8m (~52 feet). If the EF was 170, it would be 12.7m. (the only exception are the deck guns which have a lower armor than 25 which is why you always hear them damaged first)
It's fair to look at the maxRadius I talk about and divide by 2 as a rough guide to how far you have to be to be 100% safe. So the stock DCs will only do damage to your sub out to ~20m even though they are set to 40.
The primary goal of upping the radius would be more minor damage so you don't get the kind of DC attacks where you take zero damage in most attacks, then one kills you. Instead you'd tend to take minor system damage, then one would kill you :) . A secondary effect would be to increase lethality for contact kills.
Regardless, I'm gonna thorw a couple versions out there later and people can give me feedback.
Remember, my goals are:
1. DCs expoding in near contact (explosion overlaps hull) should be pretty brutal, and as likely as not should reduce in the loss of the boat without exceptional effort. This is not to randomly kill boats, the primary gameplay goal is to change player behavior. Fear of death changes the way you play.
2. None the less, overall IJN DC attacks should be ineffective at killing you (though they certainly might spoil your attack).
3. Realistic loads and types of DCs for the IJN. (A gameplay benefit is that the IJN gets more, and larger DCs as the war progresses. In addition they get more throwers. All make their capabilities somewhat better as the war progresses).
tater
Donut, also note that I am also assuming I come up with a fix so that you NEVER lose all your diesels, no more 1 hit making RTB impossible, even if you escape the DC attack.
tater
Donut, also note that I am also assuming I come up with a fix so that you NEVER lose all your diesels, no more 1 hit making RTB impossible, even if you escape the DC attack.
tater
...and the goal isn't sinking subs. It's getting damage to be more realistic which would result in more return to base experiences than getting killed. ie Hopefully, lethality rates will decrease while battle damage incidents will increase.
You're doing some great work here tater :up: I look forward to trying out your nastiest version. And count on me to report my results and thoughts ;)!
Could prove to be some interesting scenarios,the eng.damage fix is welcome.:sunny:
tater: how difficult sould it be to set up escorts so they drop a bold at the same time they drop a depth charge? even possible? Or a depth charge that actually acts like a bold?
A bold?
tater
Sorry LOL--That's a German term for a noise maker. They were used with some success during the war.
I think I saw them modelled in the game but can't look right now. My though is it might work as if the dc's disrupted the water that it gives subs a little more time to get away after a dc run.
The primary issue might be how the AI reacts to a decoy.
I had thought of trying to find whatever it is that makes a decoy a decoy and adding it to a DC. I've read that DCs can foul up hydrophones, etc for 10 minutes. The problem would be if the AI decided they had a good detection and just dropped on top of the previous DCs cause of the noise.
tater
leovampire
12-24-07, 01:36 AM
Made it all work with RSRD and Bla Bla Bla.
Anyways doing the Coral sea Mission to test new effects I am wokring on.
Sunk a Carrier and here come the DD's.
Well to make a long story short got DC'd and bounced around so much and so often that the crew lost their heads. FOR REAL!!
http://static3.filefront.com/images/personal/l/leovampire/93141/getequpgdi.jpg
leovampire
12-24-07, 02:03 AM
The throwers and roll off's.
Makes you really feel like they are trying to Kill you!
With the camera modifications and DC modifications I made in relation to NVDrifters work to go along with yours OH MAN it is really like being in the U-571 Movie during their DC attack sequence.
One of my up stairs neighbors kid's watch watching one of these attacks on me in the game and I don't know who jumped more him me or the camera or the crew.
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