GWX is turning me off to SHIII

[WilhelmSchulz.]

GWX is great dont get me wrong. But there is one aspect that the devs added that is TOTALY un realistic.

Here is a senario.

Time: around 24:00
Sea conditions: Modaret chop
Pitch black. New Moon


Convoy is spoted at about 5-6,000 meters. I barly am able to turn to track the convoy and match speed before shells are falling around me! The culprit is a Flower about 6,000 meters away! I can barely see him! :damn:

Now dose that sound realistic? No and its just as bad in day light. I cant have a visual on the convoy or Ill get dected. In 1939 I have to play as if it was 1945. :damn: And the fact that I cant realy wage a convoy battle has realy turned me off to SHIII.

Dose anyone have a mod/file that reduces the visal range of the escorts/ships?

[bigboywooly]

:roll:

You can always reload stock

[slow_n_ez]

Maybe you using the 16 km atmospher option ? lets you see things farther away .. but also can be seen easier too ..........

Try this ........ http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106453

A mod by Mush Martin ... load her up and kick some :D

[andylegate]

He does have a point.

Sorry, but as a Fire Controlman in the real navy, I'm here to tell you that you'd have a hell of a time seeing a type II or VII sub from 6 km away, at night, no moon, with your eyes or normal binoculars.

Yes, you might pick the sub up on sonar, but that will give you a bearing only. You might get a LITTLE bit of phospherous glow from the sea water lapping at the hull of the sub. But you will have darn little information on range, and any destroyer captain would be INSANE to open fire up on something that he's not sure about! :roll:

Radar did change a lot of that, but, as he indicated it's 1939.

I've actually had them open up on me from that distance, under the same conditions, with my engines at all stop, and after my many, many years of experience of actually dealing with weapons systems in the US Navy, my first thought was: "No effing way!"
Change it to daytime, with a sea state of 0, and some very alert watch standers on the ship, and I'll give it to you.
But at night, like that with choppy seas? 3 miles away? with a low profile like that?
Not unless one of my watchstanders on the tower lit up a cigarette, and then I'd have him shot on the spot!

Sorry guys, but this is one area that is unrealistic. And you don't have to take my word for it. My father spent 30 years in the navy, and when I showed him, he said "Bull ****! Ain't no way!" :nope:

[KrvKpt. Falke]

Convoy is spoted at about 5-6,000 meters

5-6 km? :o
Are you sure it wasnt a single accident?
This has happen to me only once, in 2005, when i was playing sh3 without any mods. The weather was very bad and i literally woke up in the middle of a convoy... ahh memories... :)

Edit: OR - do you mean THEy spotted YOU at 5-6 km?

[PapaG39]

The same thing happen to me just a few days ago. I'm just now going into 1940 so it had to have been around July of 1939 in the North Sea area.

I'm sitting there on the surface (twilight) being swallowed by the swells trying to see the convoy at 5000m or so when "boom" the bugger starts firing at me. I could not even see him he was so far away.
I do have the GWX & 16 mod installed.

[i_b_spectre]

I'm new to SH3/GWX and don't have a great deal of experience, having just completed only my third war patrol in 1939. However, my experience so far is considerably different than WilhelmShutlz's. I've enabled most all the mods that came with GWX (excluding the French fix) and am running SH3 Commander. The 16k visibility mod seems to work well for me in that my watch crew has been able spot ships before they get close enough to attack me. were they armed. I've got SH3 Commander setup to allow x1024 time compression (TC) max, which drops to x8 whenever a potential threat is detected. WilhelmShultz didn't indicate if he's using SH3 Commander, but I strongly recommend it. It can make all the difference in the world in survival and success versus the alternative, particularly if you're using TC.

I had an instance last evening where I couldn't get a visual on a blacked-out transport, but my crew had detected him...and he had detected me, judging from the blinding spotlight illuminating my boat. Of course that made the deck gun crew have to wear sunglasses at night :stare: but there was no doubt in which direction they needed to aim and fire. Result: first of four kills on patrol #3. So, visibility and detection in GWX seems to work both ways, but I haven't found it to be inequitably so.

[Dowly]

While on my last WaW patrol, I was ordered to mine the port of Southend. I made my approach & mine laying on surface, during night, with escorts at 2-4kms away without being spotted. :roll:

[Bosk]

I've noticed similar things with GWX.

It's a wonderful mod, but the AI is tuned too heavily in favor of the enemy. For a mod that boasts ultimate realism it seems pretty strange.

From everything I've read about uboats 1939 was a Happy Time, yet in GWX the escorts can sniff you out remarkably easily- which is not to say their depth charges will actually find you, but the ease at which they detect you is nuts. I guess it forces you into using more sound techniques and strategies to attack convoys, but in the end I find it unecessarily frustrating.

In particular, what annoys me is how easily a destroyer will spot my periscope or pick me up with hydrophones before I've even attacked a convoy. They have no reason to be so alert to the presence of a submarine unless they already know there is one lurking around.
I could understand that sort of behavior in 1943+ but in 1939? :huh:



Why doesn't the GWX team bring out some kind of Easier AI optional mod that can be installed with JGSME?
Seems to me that would make the game more enjoyable for a lot of people.

[KeptinCranky]

umm, I've done several night-time surface attacks on convoys without such issues, it was probably bad luck running into an experienced crew on that Flower, I don't think one example says it all, I haven't found GWX impossible at all, yes it's more difficult but in 1939 an 1940 I can mostly roam and hunt with impunity unless I get stoopid :doh: or unlucky

But these things happen, variety is the spice of life, next time you'll get see them before they see you and then it's your party....

[Neptune#1]

One thing I have noticed is that in almost all single missions ships are on you before you even have a chance to get your own bearings let alone fire a torpedo at one and seems no matter what you do you are doomed right from the start shure is not much fun to me.

[Morts]

oh comeone
GWX is not that hard

[The Munster]

One thing I have noticed is that in almost all single missions ships are on you before you even have a chance to get your own bearings let alone fire a torpedo at one and seems no matter what you do you are doomed right from the start shure is not much fun to me.

Have you tried the single mission, 'Happy Times' ? That one gives you time to work out your plan of attack etc.

[Jimbuna]

:roll:

You can always reload stock

I think that might be exactly what he is contemplating :hmm:


Have you tried the single mission, 'Happy Times' ? That one gives you time to work out your plan of attack etc.


There are a few like that :yep:

[bigboywooly]

It all depends how you play
There are plenty of tales on here of convoy attacks surfaced in 40 and before
Plenty of ppl make it to 43
Not many beyond which is historical

Remember this about the happy times
In Sept 39 Germany had 57 uboats capable of going to sea
By the end of the year 9 of them were sunk

Roughly 1 in 6 - in 3 months

Wasnt so happy for those 9 crews was it ?

No one claims GWX to be Uber historical
We try to be accurate BUT some things are limited by the game engine
Its not real life but a game

How many of you would still be playing if you had to carry out a 2 month patrol and didnt see a ship
Let alone sink one

Tis a trade off

GWX is just one mod
Dont like it then uninstall and play another or create your own

Tis simple really
No one mod can please everyone or suit how ppl want to play

Meh

[WilhelmSchulz.]

I see that some of you think that it was only onec. I would like to point out that this happens constantly. I just picked the most outstanding one.

I have been a GW player for a long time and would hate to leave them but its this one aspect is realy turning me off. :cry:

[joea]

What was the weather like? Visibility moderate? Unlimited? how fast were you going? Were you pointing towards the convoy or parallel? You know you gotta approach at a slow speed, preferably decks awash...with the bow towards the enemy if possible.

I never have a problem approaching early war convoys...just beware of experienced crews.

[joea]

I see that some of you think that it was only onec. I would like to point out that this happens constantly. I just picked the most outstanding one.

I have been a GW player for a long time and would hate to leave them but its this one aspect is realy turning me off. :cry:

Check my post above.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

What was the weather like? Visibility moderate? Unlimited? how fast were you going? Were you pointing towards the convoy or parallel? You know you gotta approach at a slow speed, preferably decks awash...with the bow towards the enemy if possible.

I never have a problem approaching early war convoys...just beware of experienced crews.

Med fog. parrel @ 8 kts


But what Im trying to get across here is that by the time I have spotted the convoy the escorts have allready found me and turned to engage.

[TarJak]

When I make contact with a convoy my SOP is to run out to around 10-12km abreast of the outside escort and go to fast speed to overhaul them by about the same distance I then cut back into the path of the convoy at ahead slow decks awash and I can usually make a surface attack with no problem. If I go much faster than 3-4kt I find I get spotted more easily. You cannot go charging at them at 8kt and not expect them to either hear your diesels or spot your bowwave or wake! Don't forget AI sensors even early war include sound as well as vision and even a smattering of radar.

Slow down take your time and use a stealthy approach and you will find more success.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

:roll:

You can always reload stock

Agreed.

Everybody is a bloody expert.

"Too much of this.... too much of that.... my porridge is cold."

:shifty:

Frag the critics.

[PapaG39]

Hey guys...chill out...it's just a game...Sometimes it will all go your way & sometimes it won't.
It's funny how I can get all bent outta shape on some minor issue today & tomorrow I won't even give it a thought...

Damned games are a total waste of time anyway...(according to my wife anyway)

[Pablo]

One thing I have noticed is that in almost all single missions ships are on you before you even have a chance to get your own bearings let alone fire a torpedo at one and seems no matter what you do you are doomed right from the start shure is not much fun to me. Hi!

Which missions, in particular? :)

Pablo

[neves_rats]

I agree that if you are steaming in at 8 kts then you are going to get detected. I am new to SH3 and GWX and am in the first year of the war and have no problems attacking convoys, as has been mentioned above, stealthy approach fire off the torps and get the hell out again (but slow and deep). Have to say that if I approached convoys at 8kts would expect to be sunk before getting anywhere near them.

[andylegate]

I've found that it's 50/50 for me.

Just 2 hours ago (literally) I was approx. 750 km due west of Gibraltar. Convoy contact was given on the map. Luck of the draw! It was headed my way, as I was headed there way! yay!

Okay, weather was: C R A P! foggy, rain, 15 meter/sec wind. Okay, they won't see me, and I'll have a heck of a time seeing them.

So I dived. I put myself at 150 meters down. Any further and I start to get damage (I'm not using the crush depth mod). Shut the engines down, rig for silent running and just sit there, hoping that the convoy doesn't shift or that we run out of air! :huh:

Again, I'm in luck. Here they come, sailing along as though nothing..........ah crap.
The lead escort suddenly starts turning his screws like he's doing a power run! (Which, by the way is cool as hell, all three of the ships I was on, when we'd do a power run, we'd kick it up between 36 to 38 knots! Deck is vibrating and to see that rooster tail shooting 25 feet up into the air is just, awesome! :up: ).

So here he comes, right to where I'm sitting. Okay, what did I do wrong? I'd had no contact with anyone in 3 days. No ship sighting in three days. I've kept radio silence since the patrol began. I dove down to my present depth of 150 meters when the convoy was still over 50 km off. Sea state is at least a 6 or 7 up there. Okay, maybe his sonar man has ears of gold on that DD and he heard me sipping my coffee from 15 km away at 150 meters. As Darth Vadar would have said: "Impressive."

Here come the depth charges. Hold our breath and don't move. Again, I'm in luck. No damage and after a while, the DD seems to give up. Here comes the convoy over me, and now I can try to get at least 1 or two ships before they try and get me.....

Okay, so what gave me away to that lead DD? Here's the thing. It happens every single time!
I don't boldly sail in at 18, 12, 8 or even 5 knots. I'm not that stupid. I used to talk to the sonar guys on my ships. Duh. And yes, this is 1939 and 1940. I'd swear that these guys some how have the same tech as we have now, and have an Adams class DD or Spruence class with a helo using a drop sonar!

Maybe it is the game engine. Maybe it is the Mod. If it's not, and something that we're doing wrong, lets here what it is. I'd gladly take the advice.
If the answer is: "That's just the way it is." then so be it. I'll keep doing what I'm doing and hold my breath (now THAT is realistic! :smug: ).

But if I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to know what it is, so I can learn from it too.

@Kpt. Lehmann

Agreed.

Everybody is a bloody expert.

"Too much of this.... too much of that.... my porridge is cold."

:shifty:

Frag the critics.


I think that GWX is the most wonderful mod that I've ever encountered. You and your team did an outstanding job! And there was a lot of hard work, sweat and even tears put into it. You have a great forward in your Manual.
Thank you for this gift.

However, no. Not everyone is an expert.
Some of us have had real life experience in the Navy. But I don't think there are too many people here that can claim to be ex-U-boat commanders, or have actually fought in WWII.

While not everyone is an expert; no mod is perfect either. You and your team have done a hell of a job with this one, and you and your team are giving us teasers that the next update (and the last) will make it even more outstanding, and many of us are waiting for it with bated breath.

I'm sorry if people here upset you with complaining about something. Hell, I'M sorry if I upset you. That was not my intention. Only that something seemed wrong to me is what called out for me to speak up (shoot, for all I know what is wrong is ME for goodness sakes).
However, we had a system in the USN. It's called "Lessons Learned" ranging from mishaps with equipment, to things that got sailors killed. It was the USN's attitude to learn from any mistake, so it would never happen again. There is another system that the USN has: Feedback. Everyone, from Seaman Recruit Jones to 5 star Admiral Blowhard can use it, to show if they think is something is wrong, not right, or needs to be corrected or added to it. I know, I submitted plenty on my radar system during the 10 years I was in. And they are taken very seriously. Sometimes things would change. Sometimes not, if it was something that couldn't be changed for one reason or another.
Point is: nobody should be afraid to offer critisim. As long as they either try to offer a solution, or do so in a professional manner.

So please don't take this the wrong way. Like I said, for all I know, it's ME that's doing something wrong, not your mod.

Now excuise me, I've got to get back to my sub, as I'm out of torps, low on fuel, and I've got 2 more days before the resupply ship shows up! 2 more days of banging on the door, yelling at Benard to get out of the Head!

[WilhelmSchulz.]

When I make contact with a convoy my SOP is to run out to around 10-12km abreast of the outside escort and go to fast speed to overhaul them by about the same distance I then cut back into the path of the convoy at ahead slow decks awash and I can usually make a surface attack with no problem. If I go much faster than 3-4kt I find I get spotted more easily. You cannot go charging at them at 8kt and not expect them to either hear your diesels or spot your bowwave or wake! Don't forget AI sensors even early war include sound as well as vision and even a smattering of radar.

Slow down take your time and use a stealthy approach and you will find more success.

Its not that Im being reckless its just the fact by the time I make my descion I have shells riping through the air around me!

[joegrundman]

In Sh4 i've certainly found what schultz claims to be true, but in GWX, i haven't.

I pay attention to the following factors

sea state
moonlight
my bow wave (ie speed)
Decks awash in calmer sea states.

And then i try to time my approach so that i don't get too close to an escort

If its pitch black i can get very close, certailny within 2 kms. Man I even once rammed an escort by accident with neither of us seeing the other (yes i was on the surface!)

[HW3]

If you don't like the way it plays, switch to a different one. There are several others out there to try out, WAC, NYGM for a couple. Coming on here and whining about how you don't like this or that about a well established and respected one like GWX is not going to change anything.

[abel29a]

I've encountered the same thing as the OP only a very few times during all my GWX 1.03 as early as '39, which I put down to bad luck.

Up until '41ish with the radars appearing, I can usually attack surfaced at night, getting as close as 800 - 1000m to escorts without getting detected in moonless nights with some choppy seas, managing my angle and speed to maintain a low profile. Once into the merchant stream I can usually manouver as close as 300-400m to merchants without getting spotted, if the night is dark.

Hell, I've even launched surfaced attacks on convoys from 1000m literally a minute or so before sunrise in relatively calm waters and still got away without getting detected. Escorts in my experience tend not to open fire on you until they are relatively close, even when they do detect you - which allows for plenty of very interesting surface evasions during night/twilight time.

The once in a blue moon incidents where escorts fire at me from long ranges with extreme accuracy, or spot me at impossible (in my mind) instances are so few and far between I'm very content explaining them away as Acts of the Patron Saint of Tommies :)

This is with 16km sighting mod btw, so it certainly is not an issue for me at least. As for the OP - it seems SH3 behaves slightly different on different systems, even with identical mods installed. Gremlins no doubt - you can't trust them....

[WilhelmSchulz.]

How The Hell Do You People Get So Close!!!!

[d@rk51d3]

I've encountered the same thing as the OP only a very few times during all my GWX 1.03 as early as '39, which I put down to bad luck.


Same here, bad luck on visual sightings. What I dis-like, is that virtually every NME escort, right down to armed trawlers has an active sonar set, when IRL they were few and far between in the early years, even on destroyers. Some of those being prototypes that nobody really knew how to operate efficiently.

However, it is worth noting that Destroyer AI has was increased for GWX in an effort to balnce a few other issues, if I recall correctly. So at the moment I'm more than content to grin and bear it. Nothing will take away my GWX.:rock:

Nevertheless most of my problems are caused by a stupid act of over-zealousness and impatience.:dead:

[GoldenRivet]

GWX is great dont get me wrong. But there is one aspect that the devs added that is TOTALY un realistic.

Here is a senario.

Time: around 24:00
Sea conditions: Modaret chop
Pitch black. New Moon


Convoy is spoted at about 5-6,000 meters. I barly am able to turn to track the convoy and match speed before shells are falling around me! The culprit is a Flower about 6,000 meters away! I can barely see him! :damn:

Now dose that sound realistic? No and its just as bad in day light. I cant have a visual on the convoy or Ill get dected. In 1939 I have to play as if it was 1945. :damn: And the fact that I cant realy wage a convoy battle has realy turned me off to SHIII.

Dose anyone have a mod/file that reduces the visal range of the escorts/ships?

strange... this has never been an occurance i have experienced before with GWX.

im wondering if there is more to you encounter than you know of? enemy AI sub nearby?

I have frequently been INSIDE the shipping lanes of convoys with not so much as a rude gesture being cast my way.

5 or 6K meters is a bit far for anyone to be seing you though.

there simply HAD to be another element to the encounter that you might not have been aware of. at least thats my opinion.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

I doubt this element is there every time. :damn:

[TarJak]

How The Hell Do You People Get So Close!!!!

We are sneaky beggars! Stealth is the only way to get close. I never go about 4kt on the surface when approaching a convoy and if I'm feeling that a surface attack is too risky I submerge and travel at 2kt or less. Any faster and someone will hear or see you. Being a submariner is all about stealth and surprise.

[JScones]

:roll:

You can always reload stock

Agreed.

Everybody is a bloody expert.

"Too much of this.... too much of that.... my porridge is cold."

:shifty:

Frag the critics.
andylegate puts forward a rational comment based on more real life experience than anyone in the GWX team has, and you dismiss him (and indeed anyone with a different POV to yours) with this condescending drivel? :nope:

You really aren't doing yourself any good with your snippy outbursts lately...

[d@rk51d3]

:roll:

You can always reload stock

Agreed.

Everybody is a bloody expert.

"Too much of this.... too much of that.... my porridge is cold."

:shifty:

Frag the critics.
andylegate puts forward a rational comment based on more real life experience than anyone in the GWX team has, and you dismiss him (and indeed anyone with a different POV to yours) with this condescending drivel? :nope:

You really aren't doing yourself any good with your snippy outbursts lately...

Cold porridge will do that to a man. He'll be great again come lunchtime.

[Pablo]

I've found that it's 50/50 for me.

Just 2 hours ago (literally) I was approx. 750 km due west of Gibraltar. Convoy contact was given on the map. Luck of the draw! It was headed my way, as I was headed there way! yay!

Okay, weather was: C R A P! foggy, rain, 15 meter/sec wind. Okay, they won't see me, and I'll have a heck of a time seeing them.

So I dived. I put myself at 150 meters down. Any further and I start to get damage (I'm not using the crush depth mod). Shut the engines down, rig for silent running and just sit there, hoping that the convoy doesn't shift or that we run out of air! :huh:

Again, I'm in luck. Here they come, sailing along as though nothing..........ah crap.
The lead escort suddenly starts turning his screws like he's doing a power run! .
.
. <snip>
.
So here he comes, right to where I'm sitting. Okay, what did I do wrong? I'd had no contact with anyone in 3 days. No ship sighting in three days. I've kept radio silence since the patrol began. I dove down to my present depth of 150 meters when the convoy was still over 50 km off. Sea state is at least a 6 or 7 up there. Okay, maybe his sonar man has ears of gold on that DD and he heard me sipping my coffee from 15 km away at 150 meters. As Darth Vadar would have said: "Impressive." Hi!

Can you estimate how close the destroyer was to you was when it reacted to your presence?

Pablo

[andylegate]

@Pablo

It varies, this last time I'd say he was about 15 to 18 km away. That was hydrophone bearing line ended.

Sometimes they've been closer, or about the same.

@JScones

Hey, it's cool. This is a sim, not real life. Apparently the GWX guys have heard people complain about things that are either the complainer's fault, or things that the GWX people have no control over.
I'd just rather hear that than a flipant remark. But everyone has bad days or days that they get disgusted with people.

Just remember, and this is an OLD navy saying:
"A B****ing sailor, is a happy sailor. If your men are quite, something is WRONG!"
And it's true! ;)

[Pablo]

@Pablo

It varies, this last time I'd say he was about 15 to 18 km away. That was hydrophone bearing line ended.

Sometimes they've been closer, or about the same. Hi!

FWIW I have observed ASW ships give a "false start" at fairly long range and zoom around as if they have a contact, only to settle back down into their normal routine several minutes later.

It is my understanding that stock Silent Hunter III throws a random number into the detection value, which can cause an enemy to detect you in circumstances that they otherwise wouldn't if the random value is extreme enough, causing the reaction that you heard. I suppose this simulates the effect of a crew member dropping a heavy metal object onto the deck plates, or the destroyer itself picking up a false contact and scurrying about trying to reacquire it.

The saving grace is that they cannot maintain contact without another extreme random value, even with the inherent bonus to maintaining contact once contact is aquired, so if they're a ways off and suddenly get "spooked" your best bet is to maintain your noise discipline and hope they calm down before they get too close to you.

Do you remember if the ship closed and attacked you?

Pablo

[clayton]

:roll:

You can always reload stock

Agreed.

Everybody is a bloody expert.

"Too much of this.... too much of that.... my porridge is cold."

:shifty:

Frag the critics.

C'mon, man!

[d@rk51d3]

FWIW I have observed ASW ships give a "false start" at fairly long range and zoom around as if they have a contact, only to settle back down into their normal routine several minutes later.


And doesn't that get the heart pounding.:lol:

[_Seth_]

Guys, this isnt North Korea. Everybody is entitled to say what they mean about the different mods out there, without beeing "blown off" because they dont follow the flow. My job isnt to take sides in this discussion; im here to see that everything runs according to Neal's rules & that discussions are being kept in a civil matter. But constructiv critisism is totally allowed.:yep:

[danlisa]

Ok, as no one has asked the obvious, I will.

Wilhelm, what mods do you have enabled?
Secondly, have you tried Rubini's Stay Alert mod? This increases your boat's sensor range.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would just like to remind everyone that all the escorts in GWX conduct expanded search runs when moving with a convoy. The front, side & rear escorts will all excelerate and peel off from the convoy route to conduct this search. Now, if when they do, they happen to cover your approach route, then you will be discovered. These search patterns must be observed before you make your attack approach.

Example - Last night, Oct 10th 1942 Op Drumbeat, I attacked 2 convoys. Weather was reduced visiblilty & 14m/s wind/waves. Each convoy had 6 escorts, front, rear & 2 on either flank. I recieved a radar warning at about 19km range, I tracked this for 10mins to get generalised heading & ran a parallel course, until I was infront of the convoy route. I submerged before visual range, perhaps 10-11km out. From there I ran at periscope depth at 2kts until I was inside the lead escorts course. Only then did I raise my scope. 2 Large Tankers, Large Merchant & a Liberty Cargo were sunk on that run. The escorts all reacted to my presence after the first torp impact, however, they all proceeded to where they thought I'd be, which they decided was 1.5-3km from my actual position. Not once did I have to take evasive action or infact leave periscope depth. This was partly due to the Americans having poor equipment but mainly due to the weather conditions/sea state.

Since the creation of GWX 1.0 through to 1.04, none of the testers have complained that the AI is too hard. (well, in fairness, the first time we tried 1.0, we all shat ourselves:lol:) Results are obtainble but you can't expect to return from every patrol.

My 2p.:88)

[joegrundman]

Danlisa,

can i ask a question? I seem to vaguely recall reading something about escorts searching using active sonar, but you can't actually hear it unless you have been detected. Is that right? If so, why is it this way?

thx

joe

[poor sailor]

I think and my opinion is that the GWX is perfect balanced mod.I have no problem with enemy spotting me on the surface. This is normal because they had a stronger binoculars and optics then U-boat, but when you submerge then you will feel your advantage in early years, for this example 1939, you will easy evade them, just run silent an go deep, they will attack you with depth charges but will be ineffective or not so effective, just try to have them on 0 or 180 degrees, and show your silhouette smaller as possible and that's it. Of course it's a little harder to escape a 2-3 destroyers, but in early years even that it's not a problem to me. This is great represented, as war go on, evading is much harder and that's a beauty I like in GWX.:rock: Just want to say, maybe some changing of attacking tactic is a good solution for all who think that the GWX is "too hard".

[danlisa]

Danlisa,
can i ask a question? I seem to vaguely recall reading something about escorts searching using active sonar, but you can't actually hear it unless you have been detected. Is that right? If so, why is it this way?

If you mean within the constraints of SH3/GWX, I shall do my best to answer but may have to defer to someone who knows more.

Active Sonar - Active Sonar uses a sound transmission to locate underwater targets. In SH3/GWX this is depicted by the 'Ping' that you can hear. Now, although an escort maybe pinging, it does not mean they have actually found you, just that they are looking. It does not mean that they are aware of the presence of a UBoat either. Just that they have gone into 'search mode' (within the design of the game). The only indication that you get ingame when the enemy has found you with 'pings' is your excellent crew telling you "We are being pinged".

Passive Sonar - This method is effectively a hydrophone. It's always listening and always on. Escorts will use this method until they are triggered to enter 'search mode'. The mode will either be activated by your boat being discovered/too noisy or (IIRC) by code added to GWX, as laid out in their search routines when protecting a convoy.

Joe, I've done my best but it's not my area of knowledge really. I will pass this question on & hopefully someone more knowledgable about the game limitations will reply.:up:

[Sardaukar67]

Well...I'm happy playing NYGM-mod, so it's not relevant to GWX. But, there are very few (if none) "elite" etc. enemy vessels in 1939-40 in NYGM. In GWX it might be different.
NYGM uses 16k visibility mode and I like it...since detecting a convoy 8k aways is too short distance for me to plan attacks. I like to take my time...:p

Being detected when 5-6k away in dark night and during choppy seas is not something that could happen easily. Maybe once or twice in early war, but they were rare exceptions. Kind of Das Boot.."I cannot believe they saw our periscope!":stare:

[Captain Nemo]

It's interesting to read the differing views here on this subject. Personally, I have managed to get as close as 600 metres to a destroyer at night (no moon) without being detected. I manoeuvred past this escort to set up a perfect stern shot on a large cargo with my last torp. However, I must add the caveat that I was at decks awash at the time and I do not use the 16km mod. I was quite proud of this manoeuvre, the only disappointment being that the torp (my last) was a dud.

Nemo

[Venatore]

These search patterns must be observed before you make your attack approach.

Oct 10th 1942 Op Drumbeat, I attacked 2 convoys. Weather was reduced visiblilty & 14m/s wind/waves. Each convoy had 6 escorts, front, rear & 2 on either flank. I recieved a radar warning at about 19km range, I tracked this for 10mins to get generalised heading & ran a parallel course, until I was infront of the convoy route. I submerged before visual range, perhaps 10-11km out. From there I ran at periscope depth at 2kts until I was inside the lead escorts course. Only then did I raise my scope. 2 Large Tankers, Large Merchant & a Liberty Cargo were sunk on that run. The escorts all reacted to my presence after the first torp impact, however, they all proceeded to where they thought I'd be, which they decided was 1.5-3km from my actual position. Not once did I have to take evasive action or infact leave periscope depth. This was partly due to the Americans having poor equipment but mainly due to the weather conditions/sea state.
And that gentlemen/ladies is how we will win this war.

[andylegate]

@Pablo

Hmmmmm....thinking back to most of my patrols where I've sat and waited quietly for a convoy, what you are saying makes sense!

Not every time do they close to right where I am, but sometimes they'll pull up short and drop back to 11 or 12 knots when they get within a 2 to 3 km radius of me.
Then again sometimes it is right on top of me, they drop speed and start pinging away! Ack!

I have gotten inside to the convoy many, many times, normally I get depth charged, but it's almost like the DD's are guessing. If I wait and tough it out, I'll normally get through without damage and the convoy will start to pass over head. The DD normally breaks off then.
That's when I surface and go "Surprise!" :arrgh!: I'll have time to target one or two ships, and then down I go to hold my breath again. Those DD's sure do get POed when I do that! eheheheheheh!

The objection that I had is the same DD's spoting me from over 6km away, at night, in choppy seas, with no moon and I'm sitting DIW (Dead In the Water). I can't see them at all, until their guns light up! :huh: Then I can see them just fine as I start pounding on the "C" key to do a crash dive! Wondering if one of my watchstanders had lit up a cigarette (you CAN see that at night for miles and miles, I've seen it myself, freaky!).

Another approach I have to convoys is different (abiet suicidal). This only works if you are NOT doing manual targeting of course, so those die-hard realists won't like this approach :D.
If the weather is not too bad and my visability is not too limited, I'll get the escorts attention.
Yes I know, Andy must be insane (I think my crew thinks that!). I've found that most DD's go down with a single topedo (that is more realistic than most know. A DD's hull is actually very thin, carries a LOT of flamable fuel oil, and hundreds of HE rounds, sort of a floating bomb. My modern DDG's that I served on were even worse! Add 38 Terrier missiles and 8 Harpoon cruise missiles to the mix!).
I get submerged as soon as I know I have one of the escort's attention. I manuever until I'm bow on with her approaching. She'll start to S around when she get's within 2 km of me. I set my torp to 3 meters, Fast speed. I also hit Q and open the torpedo door. Then I wait.
When the Escort get's within 450 meters of me, I cut the torp loose. The torp almost never misses. As soon as the torp hits (or if it doesn't or duds out) I go to flank and either have my rudder to Hard to Port or Starbord depending on what the Escort is doing.
Did I mention that just before this I set one of my stern torps for the same thing?
That way if I missed, as I dodge out of the way, I straighten my rudder, slew the scope around aft and reaquire the escort, as soon as she's over 350 meters away, I'll cut loose the stern torpedo (if needed. If the Escort was hit, she's more than likely going down).
Once you got rid of her, I make my course towards the convoy at a nice speed of 4 knots. Yes, 4 knots. That's because the other 3 escorts are going to be on their way.
I use the same approach for each one of them. When I'm done, and if I was lucky, I've now got an unescorted Convoy, and I only used up 4 torps. Since I use a Type IX, that's good enough for me.
The neat thing is, you can turn the manual targeting back on if you want and go after the convoy that way. But you shouldn't use it with my above approach, else you'll be one dead u-boat commander!

That approach also has some rush for me too! If the torps a dud, well, I can feel my heart leap up into my throat! AAAAAHHHHG! Get Benard out of the torpedo room!

In anycase, I'm happy with GWX. If they've got the DD's harder, then they've got them harder. I could sit here and whine about it, but then if you think about it, I've got an unfair advantage over those poor DD's if I use automatic targeting, the F12 key to look above at what is happening, etc. They don't get those options! :arrgh!:

[danlisa]

At the end of the day, if you want realistic, build a time machine, travel back to 1939, defect to Germany and become a U-Boat commander.;)

Now, within the limits of the game code, one must balance the relative easiness of the Happy Times with the real difficulty of 1944-45. This is just a headache waiting to happen and has been attempted by every mod team ever to adjust the sensor values of the AI. This particular area of SH3 has been debated & tweaked since it's release and anyone could argue points for any way of doing things.

However, the AI sensors in GWX may be hard but they are not unbeatable and certainly are not unbelievable at any point in the war.

There are many factors that are changeable within the sensor files however, changing a single value by +/-0.1 could have drastic effect elsewhere in the game. At the moment GWX has a good balance. For example, you may find in 1939, a really n00bish escort but the next day you may find an elite escort and get sunk. It happened like this in RL.

The sensors are also like they are for another reason. GWX has always strived to reduce the amount of tonnage/renown that can be sunk/awarded averaged across patrols. The easiest way was to improve the AI detection routines, a sort of '2 birds with one stone' choice. Infact, since the advent of GWX 1.0 reported tonnages/renown award (when playing as one should) has dropped considerably. At the moment, 50000 tons is an excellent score, whereas 15000 - 30000 should be the norm.

Lastly, just to clarify. This is a game. It is held back by the original coding. If it wasn't you could bet that someone on the GWX team, would at this moment be calculating whether a butterfly flapping it's wings in Timbuktu would cause the approaching DD to detect you.

[HunterICX]

What the heck?

its a bloody Simulator
the only thing that it doesnt simulate YET
is HUMAN ERROR'S and its Lack in behaviour.

its still simple AI behaviour, well in simple terms ofcourse ;) , it still follows some basic protocols , but the sensors are like..lets say that you making a piramid out of a stack of cards.
1 mistake can mess everything up.
it aint a easy task to do,
but keep in mind it does work, but the situation has to be suited for the sensors to work properly
I have been in situation when I spotted a DD 500 meters on the right of me. not shooting nor searching me
1 , it was pitch black , just barely made out the shape of the DD
2 , I didnt do anything (attacked a ship) , so his sensors where probally Passive.
well, still as a simulator I holded my breath seeying that sneaky bastard 500 meters away from me (or was I the sneaky bastard?:doh: )

I could crawl in moderate sea wheater, night, with some fog about 1000 meters from a convoy on the surface in early 40, but it took me darn long time before I got that close. I didnt use TC, and was going very slow.

[Petsman]

@Pablo

Hmmmmm....thinking back to most of my patrols where I've sat and waited quietly for a convoy, what you are saying makes sense!

Not every time do they close to right where I am, but sometimes they'll pull up short and drop back to 11 or 12 knots when they get within a 2 to 3 km radius of me.
Then again sometimes it is right on top of me, they drop speed and start pinging away! Ack!

I have gotten inside to the convoy many, many times, normally I get depth charged, but it's almost like the DD's are guessing. If I wait and tough it out, I'll normally get through without damage and the convoy will start to pass over head. The DD normally breaks off then.
That's when I surface and go "Surprise!" :arrgh!: I'll have time to target one or two ships, and then down I go to hold my breath again. Those DD's sure do get POed when I do that! eheheheheheh!

The objection that I had is the same DD's spoting me from over 6km away, at night, in choppy seas, with no moon and I'm sitting DIW (Dead In the Water). I can't see them at all, until their guns light up! :huh: Then I can see them just fine as I start pounding on the "C" key to do a crash dive! Wondering if one of my watchstanders had lit up a cigarette (you CAN see that at night for miles and miles, I've seen it myself, freaky!).

Another approach I have to convoys is different (abiet suicidal). This only works if you are NOT doing manual targeting of course, so those die-hard realists won't like this approach :D.
If the weather is not too bad and my visability is not too limited, I'll get the escorts attention.
Yes I know, Andy must be insane (I think my crew thinks that!). I've found that most DD's go down with a single topedo (that is more realistic than most know. A DD's hull is actually very thin, carries a LOT of flamable fuel oil, and hundreds of HE rounds, sort of a floating bomb. My modern DDG's that I served on were even worse! Add 38 Terrier missiles and 8 Harpoon cruise missiles to the mix!).
I get submerged as soon as I know I have one of the escort's attention. I manuever until I'm bow on with her approaching. She'll start to S around when she get's within 2 km of me. I set my torp to 3 meters, Fast speed. I also hit Q and open the torpedo door. Then I wait.
When the Escort get's within 450 meters of me, I cut the torp loose. The torp almost never misses. As soon as the torp hits (or if it doesn't or duds out) I go to flank and either have my rudder to Hard to Port or Starbord depending on what the Escort is doing.
Did I mention that just before this I set one of my stern torps for the same thing?
That way if I missed, as I dodge out of the way, I straighten my rudder, slew the scope around aft and reaquire the escort, as soon as she's over 350 meters away, I'll cut loose the stern torpedo (if needed. If the Escort was hit, she's more than likely going down).
Once you got rid of her, I make my course towards the convoy at a nice speed of 4 knots. Yes, 4 knots. That's because the other 3 escorts are going to be on their way.
I use the same approach for each one of them. When I'm done, and if I was lucky, I've now got an unescorted Convoy, and I only used up 4 torps. Since I use a Type IX, that's good enough for me.
The neat thing is, you can turn the manual targeting back on if you want and go after the convoy that way. But you shouldn't use it with my above approach, else you'll be one dead u-boat commander!

That approach also has some rush for me too! If the torps a dud, well, I can feel my heart leap up into my throat! AAAAAHHHHG! Get Benard out of the torpedo room!

In anycase, I'm happy with GWX. If they've got the DD's harder, then they've got them harder. I could sit here and whine about it, but then if you think about it, I've got an unfair advantage over those poor DD's if I use automatic targeting, the F12 key to look above at what is happening, etc. They don't get those options! :arrgh!:


Actually just one thing, even with manual targeting i can shoot the DD. Because if it comes at straight at you then AOB is 0 and range and speed doesnt matter. So you recon it point the optics(so you know the bearing):up: at him and fire!.

[Pablo]

@Pablo

Hmmmmm....thinking back to most of my patrols where I've sat and waited quietly for a convoy, what you are saying makes sense!

Not every time do they close to right where I am, but sometimes they'll pull up short and drop back to 11 or 12 knots when they get within a 2 to 3 km radius of me.
Then again sometimes it is right on top of me, they drop speed and start pinging away! Ack! Hi!

I'll add a note in the GWX Manual (in the section on "How to survive Antisubmarine Warfare) that mentions the random "activation" of convoy escorts.

The objection that I had is the same DD's spoting me from over 6km away, at night, in choppy seas, with no moon and I'm sitting DIW (Dead In the Water). I can't see them at all, until their guns light up! :huh: Then I can see them just fine as I start pounding on the "C" key to do a crash dive! Wondering if one of my watchstanders had lit up a cigarette (you CAN see that at night for miles and miles, I've seen it myself, freaky!). In what month and year did this happen, and do you know what kind of destroyers were involved?

Personally, I have been able to motor along on the surface about 4-5 km from a convoy's nearest escorts in rough seas at night without being bothered at all, even when the destroyers had radar, so I suspect you were found by the random sensor improvement factor added on to an elite crew (which was also assigned randomly to that ship). The elite crew would not have been enough to detect you, but the random detection improvement may have done it.

Pablo

[The Munster]

FWIW I have observed ASW ships give a "false start" at fairly long range and zoom around as if they have a contact, only to settle back down into their normal routine several minutes later.


And doesn't that get the heart pounding.:lol:

I've also come across this sort of behaviour from Flower Corvettes and yes, it does get the heart pounding !

[bigboywooly]

:roll:

You can always reload stock

Agreed.

Everybody is a bloody expert.

"Too much of this.... too much of that.... my porridge is cold."

:shifty:

Frag the critics.
andylegate puts forward a rational comment based on more real life experience than anyone in the GWX team has, and you dismiss him (and indeed anyone with a different POV to yours) with this condescending drivel? :nope:

You really aren't doing yourself any good with your snippy outbursts lately...

Too many late nights Jaesen ?
My post was to WS not andylegate and by quoting I guess so was the Kpts

[andylegate]

@Pablo

Quote:
The objection that I had is the same DD's spoting me from over 6km away, at night, in choppy seas, with no moon and I'm sitting DIW (Dead In the Water). I can't see them at all, until their guns light up! :huh: Then I can see them just fine as I start pounding on the "C" key to do a crash dive! Wondering if one of my watchstanders had lit up a cigarette (you CAN see that at night for miles and miles, I've seen it myself, freaky!).

In what month and year did this happen, and do you know what kind of destroyers were involved?

Mmmmmm....let's see. Trying to rattle my rusty, salty brain here.......
Lets see... December 1939 for the night and again around Feb 1940

I seem to remember that the ones that open fire on me at night from extreme range were: Flower Corvette's and I believe Blackswans.

The ones that seem to suddenly leave the convoy and come at me while I'm submerged always seemed to be the C&D class. This seems to be random any time from 1939 until after 1940. Supporting what you're saying.
Then after 1940, starting in 1941, theire are always more escorts and they spot you easy, but of course I'd expect this during this time and later.

I have noticed one thing. The V&W guys act dumb. Rather for me, everyone that I can remember coming across acted like they had NO idea what they were doing. I guess the random thing for them never worked! I always feel sorry for a V&W when I see it, as I seem to take it out with easy. Then again, with that attitude, watch the next one I run across sink me dead!

V&W Capt.: "Right boys. There's the bugger now. Let's get revenge shall we?"

[JScones]

Too many late nights Jaesen ?
My post was to WS not andylegate and by quoting I guess so was the Kpts
:rotfl: My point exactly. :up: Think about it. ;)

Then compare his response to the responses of some of the other GWX team members.

Methinks it's someone else who is the one having too many late nights, not me. ;)

[robj250]

That's why I no longer play GWX, thanks you!

[PapaG39]

Well, this has turned out to be a very informative thread.

Several of my concerns have been answered. Being new, I knew it had to be with my lack of knowledge of why those DD's all of a sudden head straight for me...
A random search pattern... makes sense to me.

This game is very complex and I am ***NOT***a navy type. Just learning who does what and when is very difficult to grasp without some training.

In Iron coffins the man spent months just learning how to shoot correctly and accurately.

Danlisa, your explanation on attacking the convoy was excellent. I will put that into practice the next time that I have knowledge of a nearby convoy.
so far my convoy attacks have been very poor.
This North Sea shallow water doesn't help things either...lol..

[danlisa]

Danlisa, your explanation on attacking the convoy was excellent. I will put that into practice the next time that I have knowledge of a nearby convoy.

Hope it helps. There is also a section on convoy approaches in the GWX manual.

For anyone who really is struggling with the understanding of the AI sensors, check this thread out, it will really help you understand what is happening in game.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=104377

Sink em all.:up:

[Ducimus]

Maybe i can clear up some of the confusion here. Albiet i have no idea whats changed in GWX, nor what version their up to. But last i was into SH3/GWX, In terms of visual detection: either your watch crew, or the AI theres 3 things at work here:

1.) "Vampire night vision fix". Its a adjustment in the visual->sensors.dat that restricts some of the parameters to where it accentuates the effects of weather. You really have to have a good solid Line of sight. In a rolling sea, this is why your spammed with "Ship spotted" over and over again. As LOS shifts, the watch crew re-reports it as a new contact. This is also in part, the reason why your crew often enough can't spot something 5,000 meters away, while to you the player, the ship is as plain as day. This is particuarlly true in dawn/dusk, and nightime scenarios.

2.) By default the AI_Visual is 30KM max distance. I beleive this is part of the reason why most of the the GWX singleplayer missions start submerged, im not sure if this was neccessitated by design or to fix a side effect of the wave atten settings (see below)

3.) Wave attun settings in the sim.cfg. These settings GREATLY accentuates the effects of weather to put it mildly. What you'll find is that clear calm conditiions, you'll occasionaly find yourself being shelled by a warship you cannot see (as your max visual range is 16KM, theres is 30KM), on the otherhand the weather has an equal and opposite effect to your favor in rough seas. So the effects of weather (both pro and con) are extreme, and rough weather greatly increases, or decreases the AI's max visual distance.


Now all that said, normal detection routines still apply, and how to deal with that aspect is outlined in the AI demystified sticky. IF default GWX AI visual settings are not to your flavor, there are mods out for that, but you'll have to search the SH3 modding forum to find them. The easiest solution is just play smart (see AI dymistifed thread), and dont loiter on the surface in calm weather.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Too many late nights Jaesen ?
My post was to WS not andylegate and by quoting I guess so was the Kpts
:rotfl: My point exactly. :up: Think about it. ;)

Then compare his response to the responses of some of the other GWX team members.

Methinks it's someone else who is the one having too many late nights, not me. ;)

My post was indeed directed at Wilhelmschulz. Its just more of the same from him... apparently frustration born of impatience and/or shock effect due to recklessness.

Furthermore, I don't have any problems with your post Andylegate. Following on to all of the detailed responses here, I can only add a titdbit:

Modding the sensors in SH3 can be compared to tying your boots without enough string. Most of the time, things appear to work as designed, and this is in accordance with the preponderance of annecdotal evidence. However, there is nothing we can do... or anyone else can do... that will make a "perfect" representation for everyone. What a lot of people fail to realize is that changing a sensor sensitivity setting by even a TENTH of a point in some cases... can cause a chain reaction of unintended effects.

Sure, I'm rather protective concerning the sensor modifications in GWX. They work well and when something is working the temptation to "FIX" them must be resisted. The risk of monkeying with the sensors now isn't worth the squeeze.

They were asleep... now they are awake. We can all take comfort from that.

[Spruence M]

I've noticed similar things with GWX.

It's a wonderful mod, but the AI is tuned too heavily in favor of the enemy. For a mod that boasts ultimate realism it seems pretty strange.

From everything I've read about uboats 1939 was a Happy Time, yet in GWX the escorts can sniff you out remarkably easily- which is not to say their depth charges will actually find you, but the ease at which they detect you is nuts. I guess it forces you into using more sound techniques and strategies to attack convoys, but in the end I find it unecessarily frustrating.

In particular, what annoys me is how easily a destroyer will spot my periscope or pick me up with hydrophones before I've even attacked a convoy. They have no reason to be so alert to the presence of a submarine unless they already know there is one lurking around.
I could understand that sort of behavior in 1943+ but in 1939? :huh:



Why doesn't the GWX team bring out some kind of Easier AI optional mod that can be installed with JGSME?
Seems to me that would make the game more enjoyable for a lot of people.

Hey man, remember that 30,000 of the 40,000 men who went to sea on U-Boats never returned...

...

...

...

How easy can you expect it too be?

And I never thought it was that hard... Even GWX...

Heres to wishing it was a little more difficult?

...

[andylegate]

How easy can you expect it too be?

Real easy! I just made Lt. Comander! :smug:

Take a look:

PERSONNEL FILE

Name: ERICH WEISS
Date of Birth: 10MAR14
Place of Birth: TORGAU
Date of Intake: 01APR34 (CREW 34)

Promotions
11JAN35 SEEKADETT
01OCT35 FÄHNRICH Z. S.
01JUL37 OBERFÄHNRICH Z. S.
01NOV37 LEUTNANT Z. S.
07SEP39 OBERLEUTNANT Z. S.
02MAR40 KAPITÄNLEUTNANT

Medals
13OCT39 IRON CROSS, SECOND CLASS
24NOV39 IRON CROSS, FIRST CLASS
01FEB40 KNIGHT'S CROSS
02MAR40 KNIGHT'S CROSS WITH OAK LEAVES

Badges
01FEB40 U-BOAT BADGE
U-Bootwaffe Postings
18JUN38 U-Boat Flotilla Weddigen (Commander training)
01SEP39 2nd Flotilla (6 patrols)

U-Boat Commands
01SEP39 U-109, Type IXB (6 patrols)

Patrol Dates Ships Sunk
(Merchant/Warship) Tonnage
(Merchant/Warship) Comments 1 (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Andy/My%20Documents/Personnel%20Files/SH3/Erich%20Weiss/Log_0.html) 01SEP39 - 07SEP39 (7 days) 8 (2/6) 20707 (3686/17021)
2 (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Andy/My%20Documents/Personnel%20Files/SH3/Erich%20Weiss/Log_1.html) 08OCT39 - 13OCT39 (6 days) 12 (8/4) 72028 (65290/6738) U-Boat damaged (H.I. 77.27%) 3 (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Andy/My%20Documents/Personnel%20Files/SH3/Erich%20Weiss/Log_2.html) 13NOV39 - 24NOV39 (12 days) 10 (4/6) 84832 (31554/53278) U-Boat damaged (H.I. 78.47%) 4 (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Andy/My%20Documents/Personnel%20Files/SH3/Erich%20Weiss/Log_3.html) 25DEC39 - 30DEC39 (6 days) 13 (9/4) 49346 (43846/5500) U-Boat damaged (H.I. 91.61%) 5 (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Andy/My%20Documents/Personnel%20Files/SH3/Erich%20Weiss/Log_4.html) 08JAN40 - 01FEB40 (25 days) 6 (6/0) 29409 (29409/0) U-Boat damaged (H.I. 74.47%) 6 (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Andy/My%20Documents/Personnel%20Files/SH3/Erich%20Weiss/Log_5.html) 27FEB40 - 02MAR40 (5 days) 11 (9/2) 58978 (56478/2500)
TOTALS: 6 patrols (61 days) 60 (38/22) 315300 (230263/85037) (file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Andy/My%20Documents/Personnel%20Files/SH3/Erich%20Weiss/Aces.html) 0 enemy planes downed
0 crew lost
Now, of course the hardest I've had it is at 51% realism. That's good enough for me. If I really wanted to get my butt kicked I'd go all the way to 100! But, though I was in the Navy for 10 years, I was a Skimmer, not a Bubblehead!!!! :rotfl:
I served on Targets, not Boats.

But goes to show, if you want it easy GWX or No GWX you can make it easy, or you can crank it up.
One thing people do need to realize: takes practice and patients to sneak into a convoy. If you have neither, than go to a FPS or Flight sim. Things happen faster. I've been on 6 month cruises, and yah boy, they can be boring.

God, I just looked at my Avie! Dude looks like he came from a Zombie convention! LOL!

[Spruence M]

Na, he just borrowed Benards special cigarettes.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

[
My post was indeed directed at Wilhelmschulz. Its just more of the same from him... apparently frustration born of impatience and/or shock effect due to recklessness.

I can tell you damm well that I am not being reckless. It takes all my experince in the game(and mind you I have allways aired on the side of coution) and thats still not enough. I am AFRAID of convoys now because I know the escorts will see me before I see them. So if you think all is fine and dandy with the escorts then its about damm time you come back down to earth because the escorts should not see you at bloody 2-30 Km!

[PapaG39]

What size guns did the escorts in 1939-40 have onboard?
How far was the effective range of those guns?
Could they shoot at something that was farther away then they could see?

[joea]

I can tell you damm well that I am not being reckless. It takes all my experince in the game(and mind you I have allways aired on the side of coution) and thats still not enough. I am AFRAID of convoys now because I know the escorts will see me before I see them. So if you think all is fine and dandy with the escorts then its about damm time you come back down to earth because the escorts should not see you at bloody 2-30 Km!

Well you have not read any of the other posts I guess...many can sneak in on the surface and attack convoys so I am stuck on what to say.

[danlisa]

I am AFRAID of convoys now because I know the escorts will see me before I see them.
:up:

I'm sure the RL U-Boat crews were scared too.

[andylegate]

@papaG39

Gun size differed depending on what type of surface ship you're talking about:

C&D's had 4.7 inch, 3 inch, and several 12.7 mm AA guns

J&K's also had 4.7 inch, but also 2 banks of 5 torpedo tubes!

Tribal class had 4.7 inch

V&W's had 4.7 inch

Most American DD's had 5 inch guns

Range on these guns vary, but I can tell you that on my DDG's that used 5 inch guns, had a possible range of up to 20 miles. Accuracy depends on the fire control system (computers or eyeballs)

[Dowly]

I can tell you damm well that I am not being reckless. It takes all my experince in the game(and mind you I have allways aired on the side of coution) and thats still not enough. I am AFRAID of convoys now because I know the escorts will see me before I see them. So if you think all is fine and dandy with the escorts then its about damm time you come back down to earth because the escorts should not see you at bloody 2-30 Km!

Well you have not read any of the other posts I guess...many can sneak in on the surface and attack convoys so I am stuck on what to say.

:yep:

Like I said earlier, I had few encounters with DD's just 2-4km away from me at night while travelling on surface and they didnt see me. One of them came to my position tho, but after diving and silent run, it made one circle without dropping any DCs and left.

Oh and to add, when I mined on surface, I was ~3-4km from the harbour, with merchants and warships all around me, none of them saw me.

[AVGWarhawk]

Modding the sensors in SH3 can be compared to tying your boots without enough string. Most of the time, things appear to work as designed, and this is in accordance with the preponderance of annecdotal evidence. However, there is nothing we can do... or anyone else can do... that will make a "perfect" representation for everyone. What a lot of people fail to realize is that changing a sensor sensitivity setting by even a TENTH of a point in some cases... can cause a chain reaction of unintended effects.
Kpt Lehman wrote it here. There is only so much the team can do for realism when it comes to using just numbers. There will always be the missing HUMAN factor. I have run into the same deal, 500m off and I'm not seen. 3000m off at night and I'm seen. Just the nature of the game. I'm a big fan of the AI reaction in GWX and believe it to be as realistic as the team could get it.

[Jimbuna]

Sending you the mod for the Klingon Cloaking Device (not due for release until the next version) ;) :up:

[FIREWALL]

I have the simplist of a fix for all this . Stay Deep and don't make a Peep.:rotfl:


GWX 1.03 Rules :up: till 1.04 comes out.

And it's all free. :)

[slow_n_ez]

Sending you the mod for the Klingon Cloaking Device (not due for release until the next version) ;) :up:

Does that mod come with Pholton torpedos too ? :)

[neves_rats]

Firewall hit the nail on the head. GWX improves the game immeasurably, and, wait for it............is entirely FREE. As I have mentioned in a previous post, I am completely new to SH3 and GWX and yet I have no problems with the AI in GWX, perhaps it is the human intelligence at fault? ;)

[Hellraiser]

I don't post here much, but I'm here every day. I want to say that I've spent countless hours with this game since it's initial release. It's the best sim ever IMO....it HAS to be or....we all would have moved on long ago instead of playing a 3 year old game still! :up:

In my experience, GWX FEELS just about right in relation to all I've read (and that's a LOT of reading!) about WWII submarine combat.

Is it hard?? Yes!! That makes it feel 'real' to me.

Is it TOO hard?? Sometimes! When you run across the WRONG escort(s) you don't have a prayer. Just as in the real event. Patience and THINKING about your moves will go a long way towards staying alive in the game.

Given the limitations of the game coding and the lack of ability to do anything about it (without the SDK) I give GWX the highest marks for getting as close as is possible.

Thanks guys! :rock:

[danlisa]

I am completely new to SH3 and GWX and yet I have no problems with the AI in GWX, perhaps it is the human intelligence at fault? ;)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s64/danlisa_photo/agreepost.gif

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[danurve]

I'm no detective, but something tells me WilhelmSchulz isn't happy with GWX :hmm:

What the heck dude, take a step back. I can respect you sticking to your guns but at some point you should realise very little if anything will change here as a result. Consider what 80% of this forums content is realy gotten to be about. Some posters are already out to discredit you. If you can't tweek what you want with minitweeker/pac then how about try another Mod. GWX is intense but it's not the only choice. I went a round or two about some issues with damage control - smoke - whatever so I just changed enough to get the game how I like it.
Just an observation but if you keep rolling in this thread you'll just wind up pissed off and the GWX guys will probably just become more annoyed with you. You will get some genuine attempts to resolve, then snippy alpha posts followed by bravo posters ganging up and the usual 'I don't have these problems, here's an example, I like it just the way it is, how dare you think something needs to change' Fluff posts. Like a book.
And in the end if you belive your going to get the 'team' to change the mod just for you, your probably in for a rude awakening. I will say the "You can always go back to stock" line while true is a cop-out. Regardless of said contributions or talent does Not qualify any modder to impress upon a player to have the game a certain way or nothing.
You say GWX is turrning you off to the game well how about threads like this turn people off to the forum. Oh I know if you decide to play the game a different way etc., then your contributions to the forum are looked at differently and some members will ignore or even frown on you. Who cares? It's like a big joke. Personally I wake up fine not concerned with what people realy think about how I play the game or what changes I've made or even what mods I use. If they don't like it, tough ****. It's just a game.

[Sailor Steve]

@papaG39

Gun size differed depending on what type of surface ship you're talking about:

C&D's had 4.7 inch, 3 inch, and several 12.7 mm AA guns

J&K's also had 4.7 inch, but also 2 banks of 5 torpedo tubes!

Tribal class had 4.7 inch

V&W's had 4.7 inch

Most American DD's had 5 inch guns

Range on these guns vary, but I can tell you that on my DDG's that used 5 inch guns, had a possible range of up to 20 miles. Accuracy depends on the fire control system (computers or eyeballs)
British:
4.7"/50: 21,240 yards / 10.48 nautical miles
4.7"/45: 17,000 yards / 8.39 nm

American:
5"/38: 17,575 yards / 8.68 nm

5"/62 (Modern DDG): 42,000 yards / 20.74 nm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm

[FIREWALL]

Multi Insalls releives the frustration level.

When you only have a little time to play and just want to blow something up
use patched Vanilla.

When RL gives you more time play a more challengeing Super Mod version.


Theirs so many options out there.:yep:

[andylegate]

British:
4.7"/50: 21,240 yards / 10.48 nautical miles
4.7"/45: 17,000 yards / 8.39 nm

American:
5"/38: 17,575 yards / 8.68 nm

5"/62 (Modern DDG): 42,000 yards / 20.74 nm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm
:smug: I just LOVE being right! heheheheh......:smug:

But watch my next post I'll be totally wrong! :rotfl:

Oh by the way: Modernday Farragut class destroyers (Preble, Coontz and MacDonough were the ones I served on), used the 5"/54 (manned mount), range of 25,909 yards or 23.691 NM (or 42.7 km) if barrel was at 45 degrees. With the Mark 86 radar fire control system.
:p

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I FIGURED IT OUT!!!

The answer is 14!!!

It is the meaning to life, the universe, and everything!!!

:|\\

From here forward "14" will be the only user support response needed.

At least that's what the dolphins told us before they all left.:huh:

It seems they were in a bit of a hurry.:hmm:

[melnibonian]

I FIGURED IT OUT!!!

The answer is 14!!!

It is the meaning to life, the universe, and everything!!!

:|\\

Are you sure it's 14? I always thought it was 42. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything :hmm:

[Jimbuna]

I'm no detective, but something tells me WilhelmSchulz isn't happy with GWX :hmm:

What the heck dude, take a step back. I can respect you sticking to your guns but at some point you should realise very little if anything will change here as a result. Consider what 80% of this forums content is realy gotten to be about. Some posters are already out to discredit you. If you can't tweek what you want with minitweeker/pac then how about try another Mod. GWX is intense but it's not the only choice. I went a round or two about some issues with damage control - smoke - whatever so I just changed enough to get the game how I like it.
Just an observation but if you keep rolling in this thread you'll just wind up pissed off and the GWX guys will probably just become more annoyed with you. You will get some genuine attempts to resolve, then snippy alpha posts followed by bravo posters ganging up and the usual 'I don't have these problems, here's an example, I like it just the way it is, how dare you think something needs to change' Fluff posts. Like a book.
And in the end if you belive your going to get the 'team' to change the mod just for you, your probably in for a rude awakening. I will say the "You can always go back to stock" line while true is a cop-out. Regardless of said contributions or talent does Not qualify any modder to impress upon a player to have the game a certain way or nothing.
You say GWX is turrning you off to the game well how about threads like this turn people off to the forum. Oh I know if you decide to play the game a different way etc., then your contributions to the forum are looked at differently and some members will ignore or even frown on you. Who cares? It's like a big joke. Personally I wake up fine not concerned with what people realy think about how I play the game or what changes I've made or even what mods I use. If they don't like it, tough ****. It's just a game.


Each to their own :arrgh!:

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I FIGURED IT OUT!!!

The answer is 14!!!

It is the meaning to life, the universe, and everything!!!

:|\\

Are you sure it's 14? I always thought it was 42. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything :hmm:

Well back to the drawing board. Will return in 31 million years.:doh:

[melnibonian]

I FIGURED IT OUT!!!

The answer is 14!!!

It is the meaning to life, the universe, and everything!!!

:|\\

Are you sure it's 14? I always thought it was 42. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything :hmm:

Well back to the drawing board. Will return in 31 million years.:doh:
:o No worries mate, we'll still be here playing GWX ;) :p

[WilhelmSchulz.]

@danurve

It is/was(im droping it) no longer about getting th fix. The reason I was snippy in my last post was because all I got and some tech. explanation and most of them(GWX devs) didint evean bother to diegnose the problem.



I run GWX with the reduced boyncy effect mod and a mod that changes the lighthouses.

[AVGWarhawk]

Keep it civil men, one is just stating what he does not care for some features in the GWX mod.

[danlisa]

.....and most of them(GWX devs) didint evean bother to diegnose the problem.

There is nothing to diagnose. GWX is working as it's meant to. It's just that you don't like it.

Now, here's the crux of the matter.

Many people play GWX and can successfully attack/evade all the ships in GWX and while it's difficult, it is doable.

You are not supposed to be victorous everytime you set sail and you'll be very very lucky to make it to the end of the war. You will die as did many U-Boat crews during the war.

From the many reports we get back from GWX users we know the sensors are hard, they were designed that way, however you are the only one who has a problem with them.

I have 3 suggestions for you:

1) Reinstall the full package. You have corrupted your install somehow.
2) Learn to mod the sensors yourself.
3) Remove GWX and choose the next best supermod.

The sensors will not be adjusted just because you can't understand what is needed to play the game successfully.

There you have it, end of problem.

EDIT - D'ya know what? I gave you a possible solution to this problem and if you had read the entire thread you would know what to try next.

[Dowly]

...and most of them(GWX devs) didint evean bother to diegnose the problem.

After careful studying, I have reached to the following diagnose:

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/1396/20070525b1b0016sh2.jpg



+

http://www.mille-sabords.com/forum/uploads/post-2116-1166139724_thumb.jpg

=

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2556312/2/istockphoto_2556312_cry_baby.jpg

[AVGWarhawk]

You are not supposed to be victorous everytime you set sail and you'll be very very lucky to make it to the end of the war. You will die as did many U-Boat crews during the war.


Hence my wonderful, 'Second Patrol Your Dead Club'....founding member at your service;) Jimmy Cricket, most times I did not make it out of the harbor but all in all, I believe the AI are very representative of how it was, particularly at wars end. I truely believe Kpt Lehman has made the AI the best they could be with the perimeters within the game. Will it be perfect, no. We will always be in want of the human factor. Attacking convoys can be accomplished with great success if you handle correctly. I for one got my butt handed too me and always on my second patrol. But, I kept at it and figured it out. You have to attack the convoy with sinking a few ships in mind. If your going for broke, good luck. Eventually I became the singleton hunter and if I stumbled upon a convoy then I would have a go at it.


BTW Dowly, just what the heck do all the pictures mean?

[Dowly]

Well, see my friend AVG, in the first picture, we see herr Wilhelmschultz aboard a chopper showing 'ROCK ON!' a.k.a. 'Devil's horn' gesture, being all bada** and all. Now, the second picture I am just being lazy and wasnt arsed to go and take a screenshot of GWX loading screen so I just used an old promo pic I found. Now, on the third picture we see a drawing of a baby that is crying, which I vigorously took from iStockPhoto as you can see.

Now, what I really try to say here is that GWX makes big boys cry like a baby. :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

Well, see my friend AVG, in the first picture, we see herr Wilhelmschultz aboard a chopper showing 'ROCK ON!' a.k.a. 'Devil's horn' gesture, being all bada** and all. Now, the second picture I am just being lazy and wasnt arsed to go and take a screenshot of GWX loading screen so I just used an old promo pic I found. Now, on the third picture we see a drawing of a baby that is crying, which I vigorously took from iStockPhoto as you can see.

Now, what I really try to say here is that GWX makes big boys cry like a baby. :yep:


Well hells bells.....I cried too after every second patrol ended in disaster. In fact, I went and joined the Luftwaffen as a clerk.;)

[Dowly]

Well, see my friend AVG, in the first picture, we see herr Wilhelmschultz aboard a chopper showing 'ROCK ON!' a.k.a. 'Devil's horn' gesture, being all bada** and all. Now, the second picture I am just being lazy and wasnt arsed to go and take a screenshot of GWX loading screen so I just used an old promo pic I found. Now, on the third picture we see a drawing of a baby that is crying, which I vigorously took from iStockPhoto as you can see.

Now, what I really try to say here is that GWX makes big boys cry like a baby. :yep:


Well hells bells.....I cried too after every second patrol ended in disaster. In fact, I went and joined the Luftwaffen as a clerk.;)

Dang I'm good! :rotfl:

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Dowly im gona wring your neck!

Besided it was just a pic.

[d@rk51d3]

The answer is 14!!!




14 days till 1.04?:hmm:

YAY!!!!!!!:D

[Kodaita]

I FIGURED IT OUT!!!

The answer is 14!!!

It is the meaning to life, the universe, and everything!!!

:|\\

Are you sure it's 14? I always thought it was 42. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Life,_the_Universe,_and_Everything :hmm:

Well back to the drawing board. Will return in 31 million years.:doh:
:o No worries mate, we'll still be here playing GWX ;) :p

So by the time Kpt comes back, we should be on GWX version 104.3 right? And hopefully looking at screenshots and teasers for the big 104.4 update:rock:

[Jimbuna]

Dowly im gona wring your neck!

Besided it was just a pic.

Pistols at dawn gents.....or would you prefer: http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2885/swordfencingng1.gif (http://imageshack.us)


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/378/spartajp7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[NiclDoe]

The answer is 14!!!




14 days till 1.04?:hmm:

YAY!!!!!!!:D
No its another 14 YEARS!!!!!!! :rotfl:

[The Munster]

Dowly im gona wring your neck!

Besided it was just a pic.

Pistols at dawn gents.....or would you prefer: http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2885/swordfencingng1.gif (http://imageshack.us)


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/378/spartajp7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Jimbuna, where do you get these smileys from ? :rotfl: Methinks you have a secret stash of them hidden away or you manafacture them in a hidden factory somewhere off the A69 ?!

[andylegate]

I love the dueling ones! :rotfl:

[Jimbuna]

Dowly im gona wring your neck!

Besided it was just a pic.

Pistols at dawn gents.....or would you prefer: http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2885/swordfencingng1.gif (http://imageshack.us)


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/378/spartajp7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Jimbuna, where do you get these smileys from ? :rotfl: Methinks you have a secret stash of them hidden away or you manafacture them in a hidden factory somewhere off the A69 ?!

The A1 if you please ;)

[clayton]

.....and most of them(GWX devs) didint evean bother to diegnose the problem.

There is nothing to diagnose. GWX is working as it's meant to. It's just that you don't like it.

Now, here's the crux of the matter.

Many people play GWX and can successfully attack/evade all the ships in GWX and while it's difficult, it is doable.

You are not supposed to be victorous everytime you set sail and you'll be very very lucky to make it to the end of the war. You will die as did many U-Boat crews during the war.

From the many reports we get back from GWX users we know the sensors are hard, they were designed that way, however you are the only one who has a problem with them.

I have 3 suggestions for you:

1) Reinstall the full package. You have corrupted your install somehow.
2) Learn to mod the sensors yourself.
3) Remove GWX and choose the next best supermod.

The sensors will not be adjusted just because you can't understand what is needed to play the game successfully.

There you have it, end of problem.

EDIT - D'ya know what? I gave you a possible solution to this problem and if you had read the entire thread you would know what to try next.

Edit - I have a problem with the level of Destroyer contacts as well. 39 thru 40 just don't seem realistic with known history. KL mentioned developing a modification to the sensors and I was wondering if that has ever been developed?

[andylegate]

@clayton

If you read through the post here, you'll see where they talk about the AI sensors.

Turns out if you try to tweek them, you end up with AI DD's that start acting wrong (evidently everything from letting you take your u-boat right up to them and they don't see you, to them tracking you down and killing you every time).

Apparetnly it's such a fine tuned thing that they can't get it any better than it is, simply because of how the game engine is designed.

So, short answer is from the GWX team is "No." not that they don't want to , but that it's set the best they could.

They did suggest that if it seems to hard or bad for anyone, that their mod can always be removed and go back to playing either the stock game or other mods. They are not being mean about this, just stating a fact that they've done the best they could, but that there was nothing else that they could do.

Basically you'll have to decide for yourself like I did. I too don't like how some of the DD AI's act, especially in 39 and 40. But I like the mod so much that I'm willing to put up with it and simply look at it as that much more of a challenge for me. If I ever tire of it, there's nothing stopping me from removing the mod and trying something else.

Hope this helped! :up:

[d@rk51d3]

Anyhow, all the new planes in 1.04 will probably get you before you even see a destroyer. :D

[bigboywooly]

Well tonight I played Happy Times single mission
Used all my torps and sank over 50000 tons of shipping

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_1025.jpg

Now this was just a test to make sure mission worked
Anyway after using all torps up I went deep and surfaced later to reload

Short time after surfacing I got a radio report of a convoy close by
Why not
Ahead flank
Now I dont usually play with stealth meter as unrealistic BUT
Note its green in both pics below
Note the range in the peri on both pics AND note my speed

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_1022.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_1024.jpg

That stoopid Flower didnt know I was there till my deck gun opened fire
Meh tis only a single mission

Just after I played another mission - set in mid 42 and taken from the SCR
Mission is just sub in the right place

Note the scope - in the middle of the convoy lanes there AFTER hitting a carrier

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_1035.jpg

Target sunk - one of 3

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_1036.jpg

Mission total

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/bigboywooly/ScreenHunter_1038.jpg

Again got away with out a scratch - got pinged at the end but went deep again
Probably cos they are just tests I didnt care
And I rarely play these days as dont get the time