[REQ] Submarine damage model overhaul

[Quagmire]

The title says it all. The whole submarine damage model is a joke and needs a BIG TIME mod. I started a tounge-in-cheek complaint thread on the main forum http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=122789

Anyway unfixable leaks are one thing. But unfixable leaks in compartments which are above the waterline when surfaced is another. :nope:

Thats just plain stupid. How is it that my crew cant figure out a way to stop that valve from spraying after five days???

So is anyone working on a sub damage model refit? I am very clueless when it comes to modding but I am a fast learner. I am willing to help one of the modding greats here who decides to take this on.

We need to fix this because my sonarmans fingers are wrinkling after a five day shower! :rotfl:
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[tater]

The spraying water is not a damage model problem.

The code is set up to warn you of hull damage via visual cues instead of some idiotic hull integrity meter that would tell you the hull is at 87.145632356897658% strength.

If you see that, GO HOME. It's the game's way of saying GO HOME. The fact it's above the waterline has nothing to do with the way the sub is damaged. The HULL is weak in invisible ways (weakened metal, microscopic crack in the ull or welds... stuff just waiting to fail. Dive too deeply and you will crush.

I actually think that a good look at the sub DMs would be useful, but I don't think that the "problem" that made you come to the conclusion is one of the things that needs fixing :)

tater

[Shadowhunter]

I think this isn't a "problem" as a bug i.e. is.

It's more an annoyance especially if you look at SH4 as a simulation. I wondered how much "realism" mods there are floating around here (i.e. more realistic bubbles) and I rate Quagmires issue in the same category.

It's just not logical that water is sprinkling in the conning tower when surfaced.

In this light I think the issue has the same relevance as others with the same "severance".

Regards
Shadowhunter

[tater]

Did he really control-F2 and go up to the conning tower, or was he below?

[Shadowhunter]

He complains about his sonar operator, so he has to be in the conning tower, or am I mistaken?

[Quagmire]

I guess pictures are worth a thousand words to get your point across so here it goes:

Here is a shot of my conning tower interior (which is above the waterline, DUH!)
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/1376/shower2zv4.jpg

This has been spraying for the last five days. Note the depth meter, I AM SURFACED.

This is a shot of the damage analysis I ran on the latest save.
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3729/damagegt6.jpg

Note that I am barely damaged. Also I took the damage reported from sitting on the bottom. Conning tower or anything above the keel was untouched.

Now, dont you think that it is stupid that a valve on the ceiling of the conning tower room spray like that when it is ABOVE THE WATERLINE???

Your honor, I rest my case. Modders please help...
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[tater]

No, as I said, the leak has nothing to do with where the damage is. The conning tower is not leaking, if it was, you'd see flooding on the DC screen.

The leak is just a visual cue that the hull is damaged.

Clear to dive 50% of rated depth is not terribly minor damage. It means that instead of 350ft (whatever it is) that your crush depth is now 175ft.

That's not minor in my book.

Again, the leaks are just the game saying the overall hull hitpoint level is below some threshhold.

BTW, what is that pipe in RL? Maybe it goes to the water fountain, or a steam line who says it has to be underwater to have water inside it? My hose bib 20ft away out my back door here leaks, and my house is 6500ft above sea level, I need a mod! ;)

tater

[tater]

BTW, I'm not attacking the idea of revisiting the sub DMs, I think it needs a serious look. I am only saying that this particular "problem" is actually a feature.

Without the 3d party damage analyzer program, the game is telling you to GO HOME, your sub will no longer work like the manual from Electric Boat says it should.

tater

[hawk2495]

It is annoying yes, but think back then that was the only way they could immediately tell there was damage. when pipes and valves started leaking it told the crew something was up. who knows that valve may be leaking water because the plating it is attached to is buckled some what and it snapped the line. that would tell you that that section of the hull has been damaged. so maybe its a good idea to RTB.

[tater]

The real damage issue in his story is that the boat took like 50% damage from a gentle park on the bottom.

tater

[hawk2495]

ok well i missed that part.... lol but yeah even a gentle park on the bottom would tend to buckle a few plates.

[Sailor Steve]

BTW, what is that pipe in RL? Maybe it goes to the water fountain, or a steam line who says it has to be underwater to have water inside it? My hose bib 20ft away out my back door here leaks, and my house is 6500ft above sea level, I need a mod! ;)

tater
I looked closely at all the diagrams in the Fleet-type Submarine manual, and there are no ballast, trim or drain lines in the conning tower. It might be the line to the depth-guages, as I think they need water pressure to work, but then they probably would contain none while surfaced.

I'm starting to think it's the 'movie' line, specifically designed to spray water when damaged, thereby giving the crew something cool-looking to do in an emergency.

[swdw]

Note- I stand corrected, you are in the conning tower- took a look at the info I had and realized I mis interperted it.

Aside from the fact that Tater points out this is a game tool to let you know you have hull damage, let me answer some other things.

First, the leak is simulated from a pressurized water line and this signifies, as tater said, a problem with the hull (and can even on a real boat) . . . possibly I have a little experience in this area (look at my sig). A pressurized line will leak if you're submerged, surfaced, or flying. In real life, when a valve leaks from a body, or stem, it requires replacing the valve which in some cases is NOT POSSIBLE AT SEA because it is the last isolation point before the hull penetration. This is simulated nicely by the placement of the valve.

Now to add more detail, subs have 2 hulls ,an outer hull which does not have to stand up to pressure and the inner pressure hull. With this configuration the outer hull will make it look like a compartment is above the water line when, in actuallity, it may be totally/partially submerged. The outer hull is a skin to protect the ballast tanks and other equipment mounted outside the pressure hull.

Go here and you'll see a simple diagram of this
http://saragossa.net/cubby/howasubworks.html

Now, more info on setting a boat on the bottom. Just because you have an INDICATED speed of 0 knots doens't mean your aren't moving at some speed relative to the sea floor. If you are drifting in a current, your indicated speed will be 0 even though the boat may be moving at anywhere up to several knots in relation to the sea floor. This is one of the risks in putting a boat on the bottom. Unless you have a fathometer ( a modern one that gives you a profile, not just a depth reading) that allows you to monitor the bottom and ensure you are hovering, you can hit the floor at sufficient speed to do damage. I wasn't kidding in the other post when I said this is considered a VERY RISKY tactic.

Next, dealing with hull stress. If you are underwater your ballast tanks are filled with water making the boat negatively bouyant, placing the entire weight of the hull on the bottom. The pressure hull is designed to withstand equidistant pressure on the entire surface. Excessive stress on only one area causing unequal pressure that is too excessive can cause damage or failure- this is the principal behind a depth charge. Since the ocean floor is not flat, you have no idea where pressure may be placed on the hull or the keel.. You can high center the boat causing the weight from the bow and stern to make the hull droop at each end. Now you have incredible stresses placed on a hull. You can settle in an area where 2/3 of the hull issupported causing uneven stress as the unsupported section tries to droop. The longer you sit there, the more cumulative stress you add to the hull. Any protruding rocks will make matters worse.

So you know, when pulled into dry dock a boat is settled onto the blocks which are placed at specific points on the hull that are designed to distribute the stress. It's settled on the blocks through a combination of ballast tanks AND lowering the level in the drydock

Just because you think you did a perfect bottoming doesn't mean you did. So take a couple of deep breaths, get your boat to port and do a little more research on real submarines, damage control and advisable tactics. Your gameplay experience will benefit from it.

[captiandon]

That is the conning tower thought. WW2 subs had what looked like a large pop can put inside the tower which was above the control room. This was where the sensors and parascopes were then. However I believe your right about the pipes as I wouldnt question a bubblehead on how subs are. Pipes do burst under pressure as Just simple cold can do that. When I see that and it dosnt stop I dont dive to deep. However I have had leaks like that stop after the crew fixed the boat. when that happined I tryed the boat at test debth and it was fixed. However if the leaks dont stop when the boats fixed it means that a refit at port is badly needed and i dont exceed PD. Rarely Have I had problems that bad as I have been really good at loosing any destroyers trying to sink me. I do agree that dammage is unrealistic and a major over haul is needed as I can ram the heck out of ships and suffer no ill effect. I do like the leaks myself as its an indacation of just how bad my boat really is. I have a bad habbit of taking on destroyers and smaller craft with the deck gun. Good thing is that the AI gunners seem to be crosseyed and can hit a thing and I am an expert gunner.

[swdw]

However if the leaks dont stop when the boats fixed it means that a refit at port is badly needed and i dont exceed PD. Makes sense as this would signify repairs that can't be made at sea. Not everything is fixable by the crew on patrol.

I do agree that dammage is unrealistic and a major over haul is needed as I can ram the heck out of ships and suffer no ill effect. I do like the leaks myself as its an indacation of just how bad my boat really is.
This sounds like the core code does not recognize this as a collision. Although this needs to be fixed, maybe it needs to be fixed in a patch? Would be interested to know if this is moddable or requires a bug fix.

[Quagmire]

I dont know how this all got turned into an argument but here it goes. You guys cant be telling me with a straight face that a USN damage control team couldnt figure out how to isolate the line that feeds that valve and stop water spraying all over the radar and sonar gear AFTER FIVE DAYS! We already established that it couldnt be a leak from the outside when surfaced since the roof of the conning tower would be above the waterline at that time. I think that stopping a waterfall onto sensitive electronics would be a very high priority for a trained damage control team. :doh: :doh:

I said this in another thread and I will say it again.

Face it. The water spray indicatior is a pretty stupid idea to immersively alert the player to hull damage. How about the Chief Engineer simply saying, "I think the hull is damaged, sir." or "Better not dive all the way to crush depth, sir."? It would have taken the devs one minute of the voice actors time and then a hour or two of coding.

I am no genius software developer and I thought of that one.
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:rotfl:

[Quagmire]

The real damage issue in his story is that the boat took like 50% damage from a gentle park on the bottom.

tater
Tater, thank you. You hit it right on the head. That is what needs fixing. If your boat can not take a gentle scrape on the bottom what do you think the depth charges will do? Furthermore, you can ram a merchant head on and suffer almost no damage at all!!!

My head hurts just thinking about how FUBAR this all is.
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[LukeFF]

Tater, thank you. You hit it right on the head. That is what needs fixing. If your boat can not take a gentle scrape on the bottom what do you think the depth charges will do?
Messed up yes, but you should have your active sonar heads ripped off by colliding with the sea floor. Happened to at least one boat during the war and possibly others as well.

Otherwise, yes, I do agree the sub's damage model needs a big overhaul.

[Kodaita]

I dont know how this all got turned into an argument but here it goes. You guys cant be telling me with a straight face that a USN damage control team couldnt figure out how to isolate the line that feeds that valve and stop water spraying all over the radar and sonar gear AFTER FIVE DAYS! We already established that it couldnt be a leak from the outside when surfaced since the roof of the conning tower would be above the waterline at that time. I think that stopping a waterfall onto sensitive electronics would be a very high priority for a trained damage control team. :doh: :doh:

I said this in another thread and I will say it again.

Face it. The water spray indicatior is a pretty stupid idea to immersively alert the player to hull damage. How about the Chief Engineer simply saying, "I think the hull is damaged, sir." or "Better not dive all the way to crush depth, sir."? It would have taken the devs one minute of the voice actors time and then a hour or two of coding.

I am no genius software developer and I thought of that one.
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:rotfl:


I can say for a fact, that there are times that a DC team can't repair a damaged valve underway. I served on the USS San Jacinto for 3 years as an engineman and we had an incident where a valve stem went bad and water was spraying onto one of our control panels. The decision was made to tag out the panel and let the valve leak, as we where unable to fix the valve while underway. Now I understand we weren't on a sub, our damage wasn't above the waterline, and nor was the water spraying onto radar/sonar gear. But the point is that a modern, well trained DC team couldn't fix this leak in peacetime conditions. So the leak in your control room is realistic in that regard. The only flaw I could find is what that line is connected to, but I am willing to let a little slide on faith here.

[tater]

The real damage issue in his story is that the boat took like 50% damage from a gentle park on the bottom.

tater
Tater, thank you. You hit it right on the head. That is what needs fixing. If your boat can not take a gentle scrape on the bottom what do you think the depth charges will do? Furthermore, you can ram a merchant head on and suffer almost no damage at all!!!

My head hurts just thinking about how FUBAR this all is.
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Actually, the subs are overly strong if anything, it's something with collisions. Sea bed = BAD, collision with warship = no problem.

[Quagmire]

Messed up yes, but you should have your active sonar heads ripped off by colliding with the sea floor. Happened to at least one boat during the war and possibly others as well.

Otherwise, yes, I do agree the sub's damage model needs a big overhaul.
Nah. They had that figured out as well. The sonar heads could be retracted into the hull when in shallow waters or when not in use. Check it out:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7761/proj1bp8.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6245/projed5.jpg

Pretty cool huh? You guys really should study the manual. It is a wealth of information. http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/index.htm

So who wants to be a part of fixing the submarine damage model? They did it for SHIII with stunning results.
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[jbt308]

One thing that bugged me about the Damage Control system was really the lack of soul/interest that the new system has. If it's anything, it's anaseptic.

Not that SH3 system was perfect, but at least it told you a bit about the different sections, what they contained, and for me, most importantly, how much longer the damaged system will take to complete a fix.

So for me, I would love to see another system that was similar to the SH3 system, where you had to allocate people to DC, and just have more relavence. As it is now, the DC system is possibly the MOST uniteresting part of the game.

Hopefully one of our talented modders can come up with a solution!

[Galanti]

One thing that bugged me about the Damage Control system was really the lack of soul/interest that the new system has. If it's anything, it's anaseptic.

Not that SH3 system was perfect, but at least it told you a bit about the different sections, what they contained, and for me, most importantly, how much longer the damaged system will take to complete a fix.

Bang on correct. There are certain classic baseline feaures a sub sim must have and a 2D cutaway diagram of the sub's guts with animations of water rising in flooding compartments is absolutely one of them! This fine tradition goes back to Silent Service. Why they omitted this feature in SH4 is beyond me.

[tater]

You know if you mouse over the compartment it gives you the compartment's flood time as well as time to repair, right?

[Quagmire]

Yeah, thats true. However mouse over the other status bars and you get raw data like .01 or 1.0. This was definitely left unfinished. :down:
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[jbt308]

You know if you mouse over the compartment it gives you the compartment's flood time as well as time to repair, right?

That might be true, and quite honestly, my "complaints" might be coming straight from personal preference, but I just felt that the SH3 way of doings things was more immersive and just a bit more intuative.

It seems that many areas of SH4 were done "good enough" and the devs didn't go the extra mile to include greater detail. I like playing it, don't get me wrong, but it just feels like they glossed over certain things that I think are important.